Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

To be fair, Goku himself (at least in the anime) praised Zamasu's skills and said he had the potential to even reach the likes of Beerus if he kept dedicated in his training.

So at least Zamasu's potential in particular was huge. Even if Goku was wrong about his estimation, Zamasu could at least reach a level where he could defeat Goku as he was at that point (SSB at the time was his maximum and he didn't fancy his chances against Beerus).

So while the saiyans are the main characters and have huge plot armor on regards to their potentials, it's not like other races can't necessarily keep up from an in-universe perspective. Hell, you can even make a point that it's really just freaks of nature like Goku, Vegeta and Broly (and their extended families) that are truly gifted, since U7 Saiyans are now considered hilariously pathetic in the grand scheme of things.

[Miracles]

Gohan: Toriyama just said that Gohan is "actually" [truly] stronger than anyone. "Or so it is said." Which we all know has been the case since Cell Games, Mystic Gohan and now again in Super Hero with Gohan Beast, having the main spotlight ["shine"] again.

Goku: At the end of the day will be the strongest cause who else will achieve Ultra Instinct. The greatest power among the highest hierarchy in the DB universe, the gods. Gohan will slack off again, guarantee it.

Vegeta: Goku's rival. A possibility he may achieve UI with Goku. He also just realized he and Goku hasn't used their full power against all of their opponents since Jiren up to Freeza Black. Due to a technique they haven't implemeted. Yet these particular foes have. Scary potential for our main's.

Uub: Already has god power from Kid Buu. Gave enough power to restore UI Goku against Moro.

Broly: Needed Gogeta Blue to best him. Now training on Beerus planet.

Freeza: Man when he stays consistently training he is among the best. Look at what he did to Goku and Vegeta.

Jiren: Potential was said to be immeasurable.

#17: Doesn't do anything yet can be at levels close to Goku and Vegeta. Even rivaled Blue just from forest ranging, lol.

Piccolo: Potential fully released back on par with Goku and Co.

Kale: She is similar to Broly.

The rest: Goku Black couldn't even maximize Goku's body, Hit fell by the way side, and the rest are just side villain material.

[Cipher]

But is that not Goku’s dormant power he’s drawing? Goku can’t get zenkais anymore, but I imagine Goku would reach those levels sooner or later.

Goku can and does surpass Black within the same arc, so yes?

[picc]

Lets say there's a 2nd tournament of power, and the first nine fighters are selected as

Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
Granolah
Broly
Piccolo
Majin Buu
Gamma 1
Android 17

Would you find the last fighter more interesting as Gotenks (Goten and Trunks are allowed to fuse beforehand and count as one), or Uub?

Who would increase the teams chances of winning more?

Who would personally interest you more as a participant?

[Thani]

A fully realized Uub would be absolutely more valuable than Gotenks. Gotenks can only exist for 30 minutes, while the Tournament overall lasts for 48, and SS3 eats away at their fusion timer. While Uub is just more powerful.

But if it's current Uub, then... well, Gotenks, obviously. Of the two of them, he's the one who actually knows how to fight and control his own power.

[Yuji]

Lets say there's a 2nd tournament of power, and the first nine fighters are selected as

Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
Granolah
Broly
Piccolo
Majin Buu
Gamma 1
Android 17

Would you find the last fighter more interesting as Gotenks (Goten and Trunks are allowed to fuse beforehand and count as one), or Uub?

Who would increase the teams chances of winning more?

Who would personally interest you more as a participant?

Granolah should be dead by the time the second ToP takes place unless he wishes to revert his original wish, at which point he'd be too weak to help. I'd rather have Merus. As for your question, Oob but I'd rather have Pan over him, or even Goten or Trunks individually.

[picc]

A fully realized Uub would be absolutely more valuable than Gotenks. Gotenks can only exist for 30 minutes, while the Tournament overall lasts for 48, and SS3 eats away at their fusion timer. While Uub is just more powerful.

But if it's current Uub, then... well, Gotenks, obviously. Of the two of them, he's the one who actually knows how to fight and control his own power.

This kind of story could very well have Uub realizing more and more of his potential as the fighting went along. Similar to how everyone evolved in the first tournament.

[picc]

Lets say there's a 2nd tournament of power, and the first nine fighters are selected as

Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
Granolah
Broly
Piccolo
Majin Buu
Gamma 1
Android 17

Would you find the last fighter more interesting as Gotenks (Goten and Trunks are allowed to fuse beforehand and count as one), or Uub?

Who would increase the teams chances of winning more?

Who would personally interest you more as a participant?

Granolah should be dead by the time the second ToP takes place unless he wishes to revert his original wish, at which point he'd be too weak to help. I'd rather have Merus. As for your question, Oob but I'd rather have Pan over him, or even Goten or Trunks individually.

Why not Uub?

[Cipher]

Lets say there's a 2nd tournament of power, and the first nine fighters are selected as

Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
Granolah
Broly
Piccolo
Majin Buu
Gamma 1
Android 17

Would you find the last fighter more interesting as Gotenks (Goten and Trunks are allowed to fuse beforehand and count as one), or Uub?

Who would increase the teams chances of winning more?

Who would personally interest you more as a participant?

Why wouldn’t Freeza be there?

U7 has an entire team full of SSB+ fighters in Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Broly, Freeza, Gamma 1, Boo, 17, and Granolah. Someone else could sub in for Granolah if he’s dead, but that’s pretty stacked.

Unclear on how mortal Merus fares too.

[Koitsukai]

Lets say there's a 2nd tournament of power, and the first nine fighters are selected as

Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
Granolah
Broly
Piccolo
Majin Buu
Gamma 1
Android 17

Would you find the last fighter more interesting as Gotenks (Goten and Trunks are allowed to fuse beforehand and count as one), or Uub?

Who would increase the teams chances of winning more?

Who would personally interest you more as a participant?

I'd say Uub. Gotenks is a fusion that produces a weak fighter by its own team standards. He'd still be weaker than the weakest of the team (assumimg Mr. Buu can still let the Dai Kaioshin out). Not to mention the time limit and that you'd lose two participants if he gets eliminated.

Uub should team up perfectly with the Dai, who could even guide him into using more of his divine power. And if things get messy, Buu could always absorb Uub. This would be uncharted territory, but maybe there's a way to keep the Dai in the driver's seat, while exploiting Buu's crazy anatomy, and Uub's power and divine ki to end up with a fucking beast.

I'd prefer to see Uub because he's never been in anything, GT doesn't even count, not for being GT but because of what they used him for: some form of H. Pylori bacteria. While Gotenks already had his own mini-arc in the main series.

I do wonder what team could face this line-up. This U7 team would steamroll all 80 fighters from the ToP.
The multiverse would have to team up, probably with Black Freeza as their captain, Jiren, Hakaishin Toppo(anime), Kefla, Hit, Aniraza(anime), Dyspo, and that is it, I don't think they can even come up with 10 decent fighters, unless they start recruiting dead fighters like Gas, Moro, or Cell Max.

[picc]

Lets say there's a 2nd tournament of power, and the first nine fighters are selected as

Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
Granolah
Broly
Piccolo
Majin Buu
Gamma 1
Android 17

Would you find the last fighter more interesting as Gotenks (Goten and Trunks are allowed to fuse beforehand and count as one), or Uub?

Who would increase the teams chances of winning more?

Who would personally interest you more as a participant?

Why wouldn’t Freeza be there?

U7 has an entire team full of SSB+ fighters in Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Broly, Freeza, Gamma 1, Boo, 17, and Granolah. Someone else could sub in for Granolah if he’s dead, but that’s pretty stacked.

Unclear on how mortal Merus fares too.

Lets say Freeza declines, refusing to help the saiyans without an incentive like life again.

Who who would interest you more between Gotenks and Buu taking the last spot?

[picc]

Lets say there's a 2nd tournament of power, and the first nine fighters are selected as

Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
Granolah
Broly
Piccolo
Majin Buu
Gamma 1
Android 17

Would you find the last fighter more interesting as Gotenks (Goten and Trunks are allowed to fuse beforehand and count as one), or Uub?

Who would increase the teams chances of winning more?

Who would personally interest you more as a participant?

I'd say Uub. Gotenks is a fusion that produces a weak fighter by its own team standards. He'd still be weaker than the weakest of the team (assumimg Mr. Buu can still let the Dai Kaioshin out). Not to mention the time limit and that you'd lose two participants if he gets eliminated.

Uub should team up perfectly with the Dai, who could even guide him into using more of his divine power. And if things get messy, Buu could always absorb Uub. This would be uncharted territory, but maybe there's a way to keep the Dai in the driver's seat, while exploiting Buu's crazy anatomy, and Uub's power and divine ki to end up with a fucking beast.

I'd prefer to see Uub because he's never been in anything, GT doesn't even count, not for being GT but because of what they used him for: some form of H. Pylori bacteria. While Gotenks already had his own mini-arc in the main series.

Wow. Great response, thank you. I didnt even think about Buu absorbing Uub, or consider it a possibility.

And yeah, I figure Gotenks would be an immediately better and stronger asset, but the potential for Uub to level up as it goes along is very interesting. Especially with how green he is right now. This could turn him into a bonafide warrior. Seeing him realize his potential through high stakes battle would be awesome.

But could also be interesting seeing how far Gotenks could come as a serious fighter who evolves beyond just the goofy kids.

I do wonder what team could face this line-up. This U7 team would steamroll all 80 fighters from the ToP.
The multiverse would have to team up, probably with Black Freeza as their captain, Jiren, Hakaishin Toppo(anime), Kefla, Hit, Aniraza(anime), Dyspo, and that is it, I don't think they can even come up with 10 decent fighters, unless they start recruiting dead fighters like Gas, Moro, or Cell Max.

Yep its a crazy lineup, but my thought was that this is a tournament between the the first tourney winner (U7) and all the other universes that had mortal levels high enough to exempt them. If done in actual story, AT could easily just make all their fighters blue+ level as well.

Obviously this team would wipe out the first tournament in 10 seconds, but you have to think they’ve all likely been leveling up as well. Who knows how strong Jiren, Hit, and Toppo are by now.

[Hugo Boss]

If Dragon Ball had another tournament arc between multiple universes, I would prefer to include the exempted universes from the Tournament of Power and reduce the team fighters to 5. Universe #7 would then have Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Gohan and Piccolo. That way there would be more focus on showing how far Broly, Gohan and Piccolo had evolved, since DBS Super Hero hinted there would be further development with them. I personally don’t see the point in recycling androids, Boo or Freeza. Tournament of Power and Moro arc showed how far their dynamic can influence the story.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Depends on when the tournament happens. If it's right now, Oob won't make it. If it's after EoZ, Granolah will probably be long dead. So why not have both Gotenks and Oob?

Getting into what-if territory, I think they could mix up the teams a bit. One team could be Saiyans only from both universes, another team could be androids only (So Gamma and 17 work with U3. Hedo might even help Papparoni boost his own androids), another could be magical beings only, etc. The unseen universes (Maybe even the long erased 13-18) should join, too.

[picc]

If Dragon Ball had another tournament arc between multiple universes, I would prefer to include the exempted universes from the Tournament of Power and reduce the team fighters to 5. Universe #7 would then have Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Gohan and Piccolo. That way there would be more focus on showing how far Broly, Gohan and Piccolo had evolved, since DBS Super Hero hinted there would be further development with them. I personally don’t see the point in recycling androids, Boo or Freeza. Tournament of Power and Moro arc showed how far their dynamic can influence the story.

This is my current desktop at the moment.



Crazy amount of firepower. Five guys with GoD+ level power levels.

I see your viewpoint, but I would be interested in all the aforementioned fighters being included as well. My original question was a hypothetical based on something I'm working on where those first 9 fighters are set already.

I also wouldn't mind a tournament like the U6/U7 one where our guys fight their guys one on one until there's a winner. Probably with one of the exempted universes. But I'm very interested in a tournament where all the fighters are blue+ level like in my original post. No ring outs, the battlefield likely a whole solar system where the fighters are free to fly around, and planets/suns are being destroyed in collateral. I think there's a lot of potential for that. The whole thing could look like Beerus vs Champa did.

[picc]

Depends on when the tournament happens. If it's right now, Oob won't make it. If it's after EoZ, Granolah will probably be long dead. So why not have both Gotenks and Oob?

Getting into what-if territory, I think they could mix up the teams a bit. One team could be Saiyans only from both universes, another team could be androids only (So Gamma and 17 work with U3. Hedo might even help Papparoni boost his own androids), another could be magical beings only, etc. The unseen universes (Maybe even the long erased 13-18) should join, too.

You could. But like I said, I asked the specific question because it's for something I'm doing.

I also think it's a more interesting way for Granolah to die than just fading away off-screen. Instead, he gives the last of his remaining life to help U7 win in a high stakes multiversal tournament. Much better imo.

[Koitsukai]

Moving forward, and seeing just how strong the team has gotten since the ToP, even though T&T are now having everybody relatively equal to each other, even those left behind a long time ago, I'd like to see the best ningen out there vs the GoDs.

That's the next step really, they've faced other ningen from the multiverse(bar those 1st world universes), they have reached GoD level, so what would be the point of having another brawl with El Preecho and Gamisalas? they have put the multiverse to the test and we know they sit at the top of it. I think it's time to escalate it.
Either make a ToP without the fodder, and only include people above SSB level (a level still kinda low when villains now are going toe to toe with the Ultra forms), or have GoDs and ningen with GoD-like power face each other.
It could be a race kinda thing, GoDs vs ningen, or a universe thing, (Beerus and his guys, vs Champa and his guys, etc).

The left-out universes probably can squeeze a couple of GoD like fighters, too. If they don't, there's no point.

[picc]

Moving forward, and seeing just how strong the team has gotten since the ToP, even though T&T are now having everybody relatively equal to each other, even those left behind a long time ago, I'd like to see the best ningen out there vs the GoDs.

That's the next step really, they've faced other ningen from the multiverse(bar those 1st world universes), they have reached GoD level, so what would be the point of having another brawl with El Preecho and Gamisalas? they have put the multiverse to the test and we know they sit at the top of it. I think it's time to escalate it.
Either make a ToP without the fodder, and only include people above SSB level (a level still kinda low when villains now are going toe to toe with the Ultra forms), or have GoDs and ningen with GoD-like power face each other.
It could be a race kinda thing, GoDs vs ningen, or a universe thing, (Beerus and his guys, vs Champa and his guys, etc).

The left-out universes probably can squeeze a couple of GoD like fighters, too. If they don't, there's no point.

That would seem a natural progression. The issue as I see it is AT's penchant for moving goalposts. He will do whatever is best for the current story, but more importantly what is best for potential future stories.

This is why Beerus and Goku have only gotten further away from each other as Goku's power level rises, because once we reach the point he is actually a rival, it eliminates one of the throughlines of the entire series, which is the endless chase toward an impossible goal.

Imagine this tournament where not only Goku and Vegeta, but a multitude of other fighters who are historically foils are now fighting on equal terms (and should be beating) the beings AT has established as the most intimidating beings of each universe. Yes it would be cool in the moment. But you lose them as credible antagonists that represent the dangling carrot driving the main characters' ambitions and loom as an ultimate check and balance point.

This is not me explaining why your idea shouldn't happen. I think it's a cool idea. This is me hypothesizing that it won't happen. AT has always put story potential over logic and rational progression, and I doubt this will be any different.

You could argue there is a potential next benchmark/target point with the angels, but at the point the fighters are trying to compete with them, they will be striving to reach a power level where actual combat is nearly meaningless. And at its heart, DB is about people trying to beat the crap out of each other and always will be.

As strong as the fighters have gotten now, keeping them below the arbitrary GoD mark (which logically they surpassed multiple arcs ago) helps the series retain some suspense I think it would lose otherwise. Which is why as annoyed as I am at AT constantly moving the Beerus goalpost, I understand it.

[picc]

Moving forward, and seeing just how strong the team has gotten since the ToP, even though T&T are now having everybody relatively equal to each other, even those left behind a long time ago, I'd like to see the best ningen out there vs the GoDs.

That's the next step really, they've faced other ningen from the multiverse(bar those 1st world universes), they have reached GoD level, so what would be the point of having another brawl with El Preecho and Gamisalas? they have put the multiverse to the test and we know they sit at the top of it. I think it's time to escalate it.
Either make a ToP without the fodder, and only include people above SSB level (a level still kinda low when villains now are going toe to toe with the Ultra forms), or have GoDs and ningen with GoD-like power face each other.
It could be a race kinda thing, GoDs vs ningen, or a universe thing, (Beerus and his guys, vs Champa and his guys, etc).

The left-out universes probably can squeeze a couple of GoD like fighters, too. If they don't, there's no point.

I also think it would be leaving money on the table to not make use of the exempted universes. AT can make them whatever he wants. And it would not be crazy at all to have them stacked full of fighters rivaling the current U7. There's nothing demanding otherwise since we know literally nothing about them.

It's more story potential with already established context. Easy work. Especially since we know they do not in fact sit at the top of the multiverse. Only the limited pool they experienced in the ToP.

[Koitsukai]

Agreed, a Hakaishin ToP is an idea to save for last, it wouldn't happen before Goku and Beerus coming full circle. We have yet to see the exempted universes and even the erased ones if they wanted to. The first ToP is a great motivation for those fighters we've seen (I mean, Toppo, Dyspo, Hit, Kefla, etc, not the actual fodder) and those that didn't exist at the time, so they could be as strong as the main cast.
A 2nd ToP to be enticing the fighters would have to be GoD level, that's where the last one left off.

I still don't see how they could surpass the introduction of the previous ToP antagonist that held "power beyond a hakaishin", without bringing them into the fight or having other fighters stronger than their Destroyer like before. They should've far surpassed that level by now, but apparently they haven't yet... this is where it gets kinda cloudy and we just have to roll with whatever they throw at us.

Less participants and the unseen universes are the two main things I would expect from a 2nd ToP.