Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

Broly is definitely included in that wish. The Granolah arc takes place in about 781, SH takes place in about 783. Broly didn't sit around and do nothing for 2 years.. all he has to do is eating and training on Vampa, that's it. He's also a fast learner so maybe he started to figure out how to better train himself outside of the whole learning to control his enraged power.

[Miracles]

Why wouldn't the wish count Broly when he is indeed in universe 7? Freeza was only exempted from being subject to Toronbo's wish because he was out of the universe. Now people saying Broly doesn't count is making up rules for the titan Saiyan.

Of course Broly counts, but only as much as he is capable of by the time the wish was made, which was even below Goku and Vegeta. The thing is Broly can’t be weaker and stronger than Granolah at the same time. Goku wouldn’t ask if there was someone stronger than him out there if he knew Broly was superior back then. Now in Super Hero, Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Granolah and for some reason Broly is implied to be stronger than them.

Implied? Not possible. Knowing how to use a technique does not imply someone is stronger. Especially when Vegeta was talking about at the time when he fought those enemies who knew how to use their power.

[Hugo Boss]

Context: Granolah is about to make his wish.

Spoiler:

Goku: Let’s see which one of us can be the strongest in the universe!
Whis: I see… Keep in mind that the strongest may in fact turn out to be someone else entirely.
Goku: Huh? Do you know of someone stronger than us, Whis?
Whis: No, not specifically… But given the scope of the universe who can say when the next powerful entity will appear? Isn’t that right, Oracle Fish?
Oracle Fish: Huh? Oh, sure! Yawwwn… The strongest warrior in the universe… will soon rise up…

Despite Uchida saying Broly was stronger than Goku, this is not what is being conveyed in the scene, at least at the time the wish was made.

Context: Whis is lecturing Goku about how to train properly.

Spoiler:

Whis: Oh, I know! How about a match between you three boys to test these theories?
Vegeta: Three? Broly included?! Surely you jest!
Goku: He’s gotten better, I admit. But you still gotta watch out for this guy. If he snaps? Oof… Say bye-bye to this planet.
Whis: Fair point! Just you and Vegeta, then. Broly, you will sit back and observe a battle where neither party is permitted to rage out of control.
Broly: Okay, sure.

Goku and Vegeta are not confident in taking on Broly, despite being much stronger than when Granolah made his wish. Seems to me an implication that Broly is stronger than them. And considering the context of the scene he is gotten better at keeping a level head in a battle, not exactly powered-up.

[Miracles]

Goku and Vegeta didn't want to fight Broly because he loses it and he would destroy the planet. Goku was fighting Broly in the first place. However when he was powering up he was losing his mind again. Goku told him to stop. Not fighting Broly has nothing to do with him being stronger.

Also, Yes when Whis says he doesn't know of anyone specifically stronger than Goku and Vegeta, he can't call anyone by name. That includes Broly.

[HeroR]

Why wouldn't the wish count Broly when he is indeed in universe 7? Freeza was only exempted from being subject to Toronbo's wish because he was out of the universe. Now people saying Broly doesn't count is making up rules for the titan Saiyan.

Of course Broly counts, but only as much as he is capable of by the time the wish was made, which was even below Goku and Vegeta. The thing is Broly can’t be weaker and stronger than Granolah at the same time. Goku wouldn’t ask if there was someone stronger than him out there if he knew Broly was superior back then. Now in Super Hero, Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Granolah and for some reason Broly is implied to be stronger than them.

In 'Super official content', god-level is a vague term. It has been used to described Battle of Gods' Super Saiyan God Goku, Super Saiyan 2 Goku from the Future Trunks Saga, SSB Vegeta before the TOP in the manga, SSBE Vegeta when he fought Toppo, and Dragon Ball Super Broly to describe Post-USS Goku.

SS2 was never implied to be on the level of the gods. The first Super Saiyan stage to enter that realm is SSG, unless you are talking about the infamous Saiyan Beyond God state that appeared in Ressurrection of Freeza. Not sure what you mean by USS.

The way the fandom used 'God-level' just means 'Beerus' level'. Which is why I called it a fan-term, because that is what you guys really mean while Super will changed what 'god-level' is depending on what they're hyping. Unless you really believed Gowasu when he called Super Saiyan 2 Goku's power on the level of a God of Destruction.

I don’t know with whom you are talking about, but so far god-level in Super is not restricted to Beerus’ level. It’s a wide range starting with SSG and ending with the Omni-king. This is the realm of power that was firstly introduced in Battle of Gods (hence the word “god” being used in the film title and in the transformation). Gowasu obviously had no clue about what happened between Beerus and Goku. There is nothing to infer from his claim.

"Most likely Nagamine is talking about ultra instinct (the technique of the gods)"

Honestly, you really shouldn't assume anything because UI wasn't even mentioned in the movie not even in a throwaway or a clip like Jiren was and the movie was being scripted even before the TOP. To assume he meant UI is like debating if Toriyama was thinking of UI Goku or Blue Goku when he said Piccolo was on Goku's level. Or when he said Gohan was stronger than anyone was he considering the Super manga.

“Goku broke past his limits and evolved to Ultra Instinct, so we should follow suit and have the look evolve as well.” Besides, the way Nagamine compares Goku, Vegeta and Freeza suggests he thinks Goku is stronger than Vegeta, and Freeza is aiming to surpass the gods. So, it’s very easy to figure out what evolution he is talking about when he says Goku is approaching the gods. It’s all coming together. There is no reason to think he is talking about Blue since Vegeta already caught up that form.

Also, if he was talking about UI, all material for UI has it beyond the gods, not just on the level of them or approaching the gods. In all media, UI was on par with Jiren who is continuously stated even now to be just as strong if not stronger than the Gods of Destruction. And before someone say it, him only being stronger than Belmond was only in the manga. I checked every material related to Jiren and not one of them outside of the manga relates Jiren's power to just Belmond.

This is not a consensus in all of them. I had seen it called “state of the gods”, “technique of the gods”. So, technically it would be beyond gods of destruction in the anime, but not beyond angels.

"Also, when Goku manages to use ultra instinct properly against Moro,"

While true, that wouldn't have anything to do with Nagamine. Or even Super Hero since we don't even know if the movie used any manga lore. Chances are, it doesn't since the Super manga is doing its own version of Super Hero.

Nagamine seems to be well aware of Freeza’s ambitions and he described Freeza’s steady increase in strength well in advance, something that wasn’t included in the Broly movie. Dragon Room is there exactly for that, to make further developments work with each other. Most likely he had access to the story drafts beforehand. Super Hero manga adaptation is following suit with the film with minor differences as well.

"The thing is, if Goku had surpassed Beerus’ threshold and Granolah could become stronger than him"

But you haven't answered is why. Using quotes from the manga this is what the dragon said:

"It is possible for you to become stronger than you already are, but I cannot increase your power beyond your latent potential."

So if Granolah had the potential to surpassed Beerus by releasing all his latent potential in exchanged for most of his life, why is the wish limited to the "most powerful life-form apart from the Gods themselves"? Especially since he had the potential to leapfrog over beings confirmed to be stronger than Gods of Destruction like Jiren since Goku should have surpassed that version of Jiren since manga Jiren was only about even with TOP UI Goku who's at least stronger than Belmond. So it's okay to surpassed that level of God of Destruction, but Beerus is off-limits.

I don’t see why this question matters, because the dragon has no say about gods other than Beerus and Whis. There is no problem with assuming that Granolah has surpassed other gods of destruction either. If anything this only reinforces that Beerus and Quitela are far stronger than Vermoud.

"naturally the bottomline would switch to the next god above, Whis."

But why? Why is the Gods supposedly off-limits, but you can still be stronger than a god if some random mortal happened to be stronger than a god. What is even the point of limiting to the gods if it really doesn't matter as long as some random dude can smoke Beerus.

The power hierarchy of the gods is pretty vast. If god-level is the roof, then you must only figure out by subtext which type of god is being referred. There is always a god or a bunch of them stronger than Goku, even if he someday he manages to surpass Beerus.

"If Whis were surpassed then Great Priest and so on"

I have to call BS because Toyo gave himself an out in the next panel after he introduced the god condition. Namely, Granalah could only get as strong as his maximal lifetime wish his full latent potential. Basically, Gohan's Ultimate form +100 years of training. So Granaloh could never be as strong as Whis unless he had the latent potential to reached that level in his lifetime according to the dragon. So the whole idea that Granalah would have been closed to Whis if Goku happened to be stronger than Beerus isn't what Toyo wrote.

I’m absolutely fine with how Toyotaro wrote that scene. I frankly don’t need him to be more specific because subtext is a thing, my friend. The moment Granolah made the wish Goku was #1 in the universe, but Toyotaro and Uchida themselves gave a non-exhaustive list of people that are stronger than Goku, including non-gods like Broly, who curiously should count but somehow didn’t (or he did? Who knows) Of course, this tidbit won’t add up for everyone but for me is very basic writing level.

"SS2 was never implied to be on the level of the gods."

From Gowasu in Episode 53: "Who is this man that's not even a god, but as strong as the God Destruction."

Super Saiyan 2 Goku in-universe was compared to a God of Destruction.

"don’t know with whom you are talking about, but so far god-level in Super is not restricted to Beerus’ level."

Which is my point since using Gowasu, Super Saiyan 2 Goku from the Future Trunks Saga is comparable to a God of Destruction, therefore 'god-level'. And why are you'r dismissing Gowasu when a mere Super Saiyan from the end of the Battle of Gods Saga was already on par with Super Saiyan God.

From Super Episode 13:

Beerus: What's going on!?

Goku: What's wrong?

Beerus: I thought your time was up. Oh please! You Super Saiyan God aura has disappeared.

Goku: Huh? When did that....But I don't feel like I'm weaker at all.

Which means, Super Saiyan by the end of the Battle of Gods Saga was 'god-level'. Even base Goku by by the end of the Battle of Gods Saga could be considered god-level since he punched an energy ball out of existence that he struggled with as a Super Saiyan.

"what evolution he is talking about when he says Goku is approaching the gods."

And UI was continuously stated to be as powerful if not more than the Gods of Destruction since UI is comparable to Jiren who is stated in all material outside of the manga to be just as strong if not stronger than the Gods of Destruction. So saying UI Goku is 'approaching' the level of the gods doesn't work.

"This is not a consensus in all of them. I had seen it called “state of the gods”, “technique of the gods”. So, technically it would be beyond gods of destruction in the anime, but not beyond angels."

Angels are not considered gods, especially in the anime. Whis has continuously said in the anime that he wasn't a god.

"Nagamine seems to be well aware of Freeza’s ambitions

That is because he worked on the Super anime before going to the movie, which again has nothing to do with the manga.

" don’t see why this question matters, because the dragon has no say about gods other than Beerus and Whis"

And the question remains why. Why does the dragon have no say over Beerus and Whis, but has say over Shin?

"There is no problem with assuming that Granolah has surpassed other gods of destruction either."

Why is it okay for Granolah to suppressed every God of Destruction except Beerus? Especially by your own admission, Granolah could have surpassed Beerus if some random mortal happened to be stronger. Also, if Beerus and Quitela qwew so above Belmond and the other gods to this extent, why didn't he and the other gods get one-shotted?

"The power hierarchy of the gods is pretty vast. If god-level is the roof, then you must only figure out by subtext which type of god is being referred. There is always a god or a bunch of them stronger than Goku, even if he someday he manages to surpass Beerus."

So in other words, it was indeed meaningless. Why even have the condition 'outside of the gods themselves' if you can go pass them regardless because some rando did it. After all, Broly is on par with Beerus after just getting into a sparring match for a few hours.

This isn't about context. You have to do a lot of bending over to explain why Shin was surpassed if the wish could go past the gods, why did it go past other levels of 'god-level' since the realm of the gods have been described as SSB Vegeta from the beginning of USS, and what was even the point of the condition if Granolah could've bench pressed Beerus if some gifted rando could do it.

The line about the gods were unneeded.

Broly is definitely included in that wish. The Granolah arc takes place in about 781, SH takes place in about 783. Broly didn't sit around and do nothing for 2 years.. all he has to do is eating and training on Vampa, that's it. He's also a fast learner so maybe he started to figure out how to better train himself outside of the whole learning to control his enraged power.

Broly couldn't have been included because Broly was stated to be on Beerus' level. Even if you want to go with, "but Goku hasn't seen Beerus at full power, so how would he know", all the material before and after the movie put Broly on that level, Beerus freaked out seeing Broly in Super Hero, and why would that line even be there if it meant jack.

Because of Toyo's wonderful power scaling in the Moro arc, he's saying that 73 Moro with angel's powers would get stomped into the ground by Broly since he's comparable to Beerus, and that Goku and Vegeta had to be stronger than that Broly because they're #1 and #2 before Granalah made his wish. Which means they should be stronger than Beerus, except they're not because Toyo doesn't know what to do with Broly.

[Hugo Boss]

"SS2 was never implied to be on the level of the gods."

From Gowasu in Episode 53: "Who is this man that's not even a god, but as strong as the God Destruction."

Super Saiyan 2 Goku in-universe was compared to a God of Destruction.

You missed the point here. Gowasu is basing his assumption on what he was told, he has no clue about how strong Goku or a God of Destruction are. The next arc showcased that Goku rivals the gods in Blue.

"don’t know with whom you are talking about, but so far god-level in Super is not restricted to Beerus’ level."

Which is my point since using Gowasu, Super Saiyan 2 Goku from the Future Trunks Saga is comparable to a God of Destruction, therefore 'god-level'. And why are you'r dismissing Gowasu when a mere Super Saiyan from the end of the Battle of Gods Saga was already on par with Super Saiyan God.

Because logically what Gowasu says doesn’t reflect the reality, he is unaware of Goku’s next transformations. The Super Saiyan with god power doesn’t carry onto the next arcs after Champa either.

"what evolution he is talking about when he says Goku is approaching the gods."

And UI was continuously stated to be as powerful if not more than the Gods of Destruction since UI is comparable to Jiren who is stated in all material outside of the manga to be just as strong if not stronger than the Gods of Destruction. So saying UI Goku is 'approaching' the level of the gods doesn't work.

So what’s your take then? It can’t be Blue because in that form Goku and Vegeta are on par with each other. Which form Goku has that is stronger than Vegeta and is not Ultra Instinct?

Angels are not considered gods, especially in the anime. Whis has continuously said in the anime that he wasn't a god.

I’m not sure why you are limiting the scope to the anime. But anyway Ultra Instinct was said to be the technique of the gods/state of the gods multiple times and it’s angels’ specialty. Whis was also implied to be a god since the start of Goku and Vegeta’s training on Beerus’ planet.

" don’t see why this question matters, because the dragon has no say about gods other than Beerus and Whis"

And the question remains why. Why does the dragon have no say over Beerus and Whis, but has say over Shin?

Because Shin, despite being a god, doesn’t fit in the god level category the dragon is talking about. Only beings stronger than SSG count.

"There is no problem with assuming that Granolah has surpassed other gods of destruction either."

Why is it okay for Granolah to suppressed every God of Destruction except Beerus? Especially by your own admission, Granolah could have surpassed Beerus if some random mortal happened to be stronger. Also, if Beerus and Quitela qwew so above Belmond and the other gods to this extent, why didn't he and the other gods get one-shotted?

I don’t know. This is just how strong Beerus is. His matches with Vegeta are pretty much a summary of how far he is above the other gods of destruction, with only Quitela being implied to be a rival. And there are dozens of gods stronger than Beerus as well, so this a moot question.

"The power hierarchy of the gods is pretty vast. If god-level is the roof, then you must only figure out by subtext which type of god is being referred. There is always a god or a bunch of them stronger than Goku, even if he someday he manages to surpass Beerus."

So in other words, it was indeed meaningless. Why even have the condition 'outside of the gods themselves' if you can go pass them regardless because some rando did it. After all, Broly is on par with Beerus after just getting into a sparring match for a few hours.

The point is to create an enemy more powerful than Goku without making it too broken. There is no need to read too much into this.

This isn't about context. You have to do a lot of bending over to explain why Shin was surpassed if the wish could go past the gods, why did it go past other levels of 'god-level' since the realm of the gods have been described as SSB Vegeta from the beginning of USS, and what was even the point of the condition if Granolah could've bench pressed Beerus if some gifted rando could do it.

The line about the gods were unneeded.

Kaioshins are overlooked because Goku has long surpassed them. I wouldn’t say Toyotaro is guilty of that. Some people might not consider them gods because they lack overwhelming presence and that’s okay for me. I don’t care about their strength, as much as you apparently.

[The Monkey King]

So what’s your take then? It can’t be Blue because in that form Goku and Vegeta are on par with each other. Which form Goku has that is stronger than Vegeta and is not Ultra Instinct?

I see it as a reaffirmation of how Whis described Vegeta in comparison to Goku in Resurrection F

Having composed himself again, Whis carries on, telling Vegeta he is always tense and is thus slow to react, which is why Goku is always one step ahead of him.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/movie/resurr ... f/summary/

Goku and Vegeta may be "on par" with each other in Blue but Goku still has the edge over him.

Plus neither Broly or Super Hero acknowledge Goku ever tapping into UI in the TOP, come to think of it Toriyama never mentions UI Goku in any interviews when he talks about how strong characters are in comparison to one another.

[Hugo Boss]

So what’s your take then? It can’t be Blue because in that form Goku and Vegeta are on par with each other. Which form Goku has that is stronger than Vegeta and is not Ultra Instinct?

I see it as a reaffirmation of how Whis described Vegeta in comparison to Goku in Resurrection F

Having composed himself again, Whis carries on, telling Vegeta he is always tense and is thus slow to react, which is why Goku is always one step ahead of him.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/movie/resurr ... f/summary/

Goku and Vegeta may be "on par" with each other in Blue but Goku still has the edge over him.

Plus neither Broly or Super Hero acknowledge Goku ever tapping into UI in the TOP, come to think of it Toriyama never mentions UI Goku in any interviews when he talks about how strong characters are in comparison to one another.

I think the first part is kinda related though, as coming close to the gods is the consequence of what Whis is teaching them. They are just taking different paths. Goku with the body (ultra instinct) and Vegeta with the mind (Jiren’s technique).

Nagamine, Broly’s movie director, even acknowledges that Goku can use Ultra Instinct in the very same interview. He says that he took it as inspiration to upgrade the look of the film.

[Yuji]

Who's the strongest GT character Moro arc Boo could beat?

Assuming he doesn't solo the verse, if he fuses with GT Oob, does he then?

Instead of fusing with GT Oob, how far does he get in Super by fusing with DBS Oob?

[Yuji]

Ok so I've been reading through the Heroes manga and here are some of the notes I've taken for the first arc for anyone who wants to make their battle power or tier lists:

Dark Demon Realm Mission

Spoiler:

Chapter 1

Trunks gets kidnapped by Chronoa post-Cell arc so we can assume this Trunks is directly comparable to the Trunks from the Cell Games.
Trunks is beaten in base by masked Bardock but later fights evenly and cracks his mask in Super Saiyan
SS Trunks and Bardock defeat Super Mira
Xeno Goku is summoned from Trunks' memories (but he is way stronger than the Cell arc Goku that Trunks should remember)

Chapter 2

Trunks and Goku train for 6 months in a RoSaT
Dark Freeza defeats Namek SS Goku
Dark Freeza overpowers base Trunks
Dark Freeza beam clashes with base Xeno Goku and SS Namek Goku but is sneak-attacked and killed by base Trunks
Base Trunks one shots base Mira with a Kamehameha

Chapter 3

Xeno Vegeta appears
Dark Cell defeats all fighters in the Cell Games (pre or post SS2 is unclear)
Base Xeno Vegeta easily defeats Dark Cell
Demon God Gravy one shots Vegeta with a sneak attack
Trunks and Vegeta fuse into Vegenks. Vegenks overpowers Gravy in base form.

Chapter 4

Cell X appears
Base Vegenks, Cell X and Gravy all appear relative in power, with Cell X having the advantage. Gravy and Vegenks defeat Cell X with a combo attack, Vegenks unfuses.
Base Goku appears defeated by Dark Kid Boo

Chapter 5

Demon God Dabra easily defeats Dark Kid Boo and base Xeno Goku
Kid Boo absorbs Dabra
Kid Boo overpowers SS Trunks
Goku and Vegeta fuse
Base Vegetto and Kid Boo have a close fight, Vegetto seems to have the slight edge
Chamel easily blocks base Vegetto's attack and takes Kid Boo

Chapter 6

Dark Turles is easily defeated by masked King Vegeta
Salsa is overpowered by dark Turles after eating the Tree of Might. He comments he's as strong as a Demon God.
Mechikabura easily one shots Turles

Chapter 7

Dark Janemba defeats some mooks and gains a new form
Shroom easily defeats Dark Janemba
Kid Boo absorbs Dark Janemba's dragon ball (and his power?)
Shroom overpowers Chamel, base Goku and Vegeta with his soul harvesting technique
Goku and Vegeta fuse into SS Gogeta

Chapter 8

Xeno Gohan appears
Gohan easily defeats Dark Slug by whistling
Towa powers up Dark Slug
Chamel easily blocks Dark Slug's attack
Trunks and Gohan fuse into Gohanks and handle Slug
Kid Boo fights Demon God Towa and Salsa but is defeated by Salsa (some kind of absorption technique from his sword?)

Chapter 9

SS Gogeta and Shroom fight evenly
Gogeta defuses
SS4 Broly easily defeats Towa and Paragus
Mira fuses with Towa and blocks a punch from Broly
Xeno Goku goes SS4. Mechikabura claims all 3 are relative now. Goku goes down first, Broly second, Mira is left standing.

Chapter 10

King Vegeta easily overpowers base Bardock and Paragus
SS3 Bardocks has an edge over King Vegeta, but the latter kills Paragus

Chapter 11

Shroom defeats base Xeno Vegeta but a sneak attack from base Xeno Gotenks forces him to flee

Chapter 12

The Time Patrol fights the Demon Gods. Xeno SS4 Gogeta one shots Gravy.
Mechikabura regains his youth.

Chapter 13

Fin fights GT SS4 Gogeta
Demon God Dabra defeats base Xeno Trunks
Fin absorbs GT SS4 Gogeta
Xeno SS4 Gogeta appears

Chapter 14

Fin Gogeta one shots Omega Shenron
Fin Gogeta and Xeno Gogeta fight evenly
SS4 Gohan appears
SS4 Gohan overpowers Fin Gogeta with a Masenko, Xeno Gogeta finishes him off
GT Gogeta expels Fin from his body
Chamel damages Towa

Chapter 15

Xeno Pan appears
Shroom defeats SS Gohan
SS4 Gohan defeats Shroom
Fin Gogeta defeats Chamel

Chapter 16

SS Goku defeats Salsa
Vegeta defeats Gravy off screen
Robel defeats Poutine
Goten defeats Dabra off screen (massive feat???)
SS4 Broly defeats Towa and Fin off screen, or forces them to retreat
SS3 Trunks defeats Chronoa

Chapter 17

Mechikabura easily defeats Trunks and Goten
Mechikabura absorbs the power of all the Demon Gods except Towa
Trunks goes SSG
Mechikabura easily defeats Trunks
Ultimate Fin fights Trunks and seems to have an edge
Trunks kills Towa

Chapter 18

Trunks, Demigra and Chronoa team up ans Trunks deals a blow to Mechikabura
Time Patrol fights Mechikabura. SS4 Vegetto appears and seems much stronger, but can't kill him.
Keysword Trunks seals Mechikabura with the power from Chronoa and Demigra

The powerlevels are definitely wonky sometimes but in general this first arc seems very coherent internally at least when compared to some of the arcs coming after it.

From my estimation, base Xeno Goku/Vegeta hover somewhere between Perfect Cell and dark Kid Boo. So there's a lot of leeway here. Even though they're not the GT versions, they should at least be stronger than the GT counterparts since their Gogeta is much stronger. So it would depend on how strong you believe base GT Goku and Vegeta are.

SS4/SSGs in this universe are at least comparable to SS4 Gogeta scaling from Fin who has Gogeta's power plus his own. SS4 Gohan can damage him, and Broly later defeats or overpowers him, and we know Broly is comparable to Xeno Goku, so it makes sense. SSG Trunks seems relative to the SS4s here which is weird because he starts off from his Cell arc standpoint, but I guess it makes sense since SSG's multiplier is supposed to be huge. However, Heroes will later make SS4 and DBS Goku Blue relative instead, so either Trunks gets nerfed or he just appears stronger here than he really is for plot convenience.

Base Xeno Goku > Base GT Goku > a form of Boo
SS4 Xeno Goku >/= SS4 GT Gogeta

This should be some decent scaling mileage. Also shoutout to SS (2?) Goten defeating Dabra off-screen. That's a ridiculous feat considering Dabra had little trouble with dark Kid Boo earlier on in the series. Though I guess it makes sense because Goten should be relative to Goku and the dark DB boost doesn't seem that huge since Namek SS Goku was still helpful against dark Freeza. I'm guessing SS Xeno Goku > SS Xeno Goten > Dabra > Dark Kid Boo > Base Xeno Goku > Base Xeno Goten. Should be some room in there to slot Kid Boo or the stronger Boos if you believe Goku in GT was talking about a stronger Boo than Mr. Boo.

[TobyS]

Ok so I've been reading through the Heroes manga and here are some of the notes I've taken for the first arc for anyone who wants to make their battle power or tier lists:

Dark Demon Realm Mission

Spoiler:

Chapter 1

Trunks gets kidnapped by Chronoa post-Cell arc so we can assume this Trunks is directly comparable to the Trunks from the Cell Games.
Trunks is beaten in base by masked Bardock but later fights evenly and cracks his mask in Super Saiyan
SS Trunks and Bardock defeat Super Mira
Xeno Goku is summoned from Trunks' memories (but he is way stronger than the Cell arc Goku that Trunks should remember)

Chapter 2

Trunks and Goku train for 6 months in a RoSaT
Dark Freeza defeats Namek SS Goku
Dark Freeza overpowers base Trunks
Dark Freeza beam clashes with base Xeno Goku and SS Namek Goku but is sneak-attacked and killed by base Trunks
Base Trunks one shots base Mira with a Kamehameha

Chapter 3

Xeno Vegeta appears
Dark Cell defeats all fighters in the Cell Games (pre or post SS2 is unclear)
Base Xeno Vegeta easily defeats Dark Cell
Demon God Gravy one shots Vegeta with a sneak attack
Trunks and Vegeta fuse into Vegenks. Vegenks overpowers Gravy in base form.

Chapter 4

Cell X appears
Base Vegenks, Cell X and Gravy all appear relative in power, with Cell X having the advantage. Gravy and Vegenks defeat Cell X with a combo attack, Vegenks unfuses.
Base Goku appears defeated by Dark Kid Boo

Chapter 5

Demon God Dabra easily defeats Dark Kid Boo and base Xeno Goku
Kid Boo absorbs Dabra
Kid Boo overpowers SS Trunks
Goku and Vegeta fuse
Base Vegetto and Kid Boo have a close fight, Vegetto seems to have the slight edge
Chamel easily blocks base Vegetto's attack and takes Kid Boo

Chapter 6

Dark Turles is easily defeated by masked King Vegeta
Salsa is overpowered by dark Turles after eating the Tree of Might. He comments he's as strong as a Demon God.
Mechikabura easily one shots Turles

Chapter 7

Dark Janemba defeats some mooks and gains a new form
Shroom easily defeats Dark Janemba
Kid Boo absorbs Dark Janemba's dragon ball (and his power?)
Shroom overpowers Chamel, base Goku and Vegeta with his soul harvesting technique
Goku and Vegeta fuse into SS Gogeta

Chapter 8

Xeno Gohan appears
Gohan easily defeats Dark Slug by whistling
Towa powers up Dark Slug
Chamel easily blocks Dark Slug's attack
Trunks and Gohan fuse into Gohanks and handle Slug
Kid Boo fights Demon God Towa and Salsa but is defeated by Salsa (some kind of absorption technique from his sword?)

Chapter 9

SS Gogeta and Shroom fight evenly
Gogeta defuses
SS4 Broly easily defeats Towa and Paragus
Mira fuses with Towa and blocks a punch from Broly
Xeno Goku goes SS4. Mechikabura claims all 3 are relative now. Goku goes down first, Broly second, Mira is left standing.

Chapter 10

King Vegeta easily overpowers base Bardock and Paragus
SS3 Bardocks has an edge over King Vegeta, but the latter kills Paragus

Chapter 11

Shroom defeats base Xeno Vegeta but a sneak attack from base Xeno Gotenks forces him to flee

Chapter 12

The Time Patrol fights the Demon Gods. Xeno SS4 Gogeta one shots Gravy.
Mechikabura regains his youth.

Chapter 13

Fin fights GT SS4 Gogeta
Demon God Dabra defeats base Xeno Trunks
Fin absorbs GT SS4 Gogeta
Xeno SS4 Gogeta appears

Chapter 14

Fin Gogeta one shots Omega Shenron
Fin Gogeta and Xeno Gogeta fight evenly
SS4 Gohan appears
SS4 Gohan overpowers Fin Gogeta with a Masenko, Xeno Gogeta finishes him off
GT Gogeta expels Fin from his body
Chamel damages Towa

Chapter 15

Xeno Pan appears
Shroom defeats SS Gohan
SS4 Gohan defeats Shroom
Fin Gogeta defeats Chamel

Chapter 16

SS Goku defeats Salsa
Vegeta defeats Gravy off screen
Robel defeats Poutine
Goten defeats Dabra off screen (massive feat???)
SS4 Broly defeats Towa and Fin off screen, or forces them to retreat
SS3 Trunks defeats Chronoa

Chapter 17

Mechikabura easily defeats Trunks and Goten
Mechikabura absorbs the power of all the Demon Gods except Towa
Trunks goes SSG
Mechikabura easily defeats Trunks
Ultimate Fin fights Trunks and seems to have an edge
Trunks kills Towa

Chapter 18

Trunks, Demigra and Chronoa team up ans Trunks deals a blow to Mechikabura
Time Patrol fights Mechikabura. SS4 Vegetto appears and seems much stronger, but can't kill him.
Keysword Trunks seals Mechikabura with the power from Chronoa and Demigra

The powerlevels are definitely wonky sometimes but in general this first arc seems very coherent internally at least when compared to some of the arcs coming after it.

From my estimation, base Xeno Goku/Vegeta hover somewhere between Perfect Cell and dark Kid Boo. So there's a lot of leeway here. Even though they're not the GT versions, they should at least be stronger than the GT counterparts since their Gogeta is much stronger. So it would depend on how strong you believe base GT Goku and Vegeta are.

SS4/SSGs in this universe are at least comparable to SS4 Gogeta scaling from Fin who has Gogeta's power plus his own. SS4 Gohan can damage him, and Broly later defeats or overpowers him, and we know Broly is comparable to Xeno Goku, so it makes sense. SSG Trunks seems relative to the SS4s here which is weird because he starts off from his Cell arc standpoint, but I guess it makes sense since SSG's multiplier is supposed to be huge. However, Heroes will later make SS4 and DBS Goku Blue relative instead, so either Trunks gets nerfed or he just appears stronger here than he really is for plot convenience.

Base Xeno Goku > Base GT Goku > a form of Boo
SS4 Xeno Goku >/= SS4 GT Gogeta

This should be some decent scaling mileage. Also shoutout to SS (2?) Goten defeating Dabra off-screen. That's a ridiculous feat considering Dabra had little trouble with dark Kid Boo earlier on in the series. Though I guess it makes sense because Goten should be relative to Goku and the dark DB boost doesn't seem that huge since Namek SS Goku was still helpful against dark Freeza. I'm guessing SS Xeno Goku > SS Xeno Goten > Dabra > Dark Kid Boo > Base Xeno Goku > Base Xeno Goten. Should be some room in there to slot Kid Boo or the stronger Boos if you believe Goku in GT was talking about a stronger Boo than Mr. Boo.

I think about this a lot too.

Thing to remember is this was just a promo manga at first and he probably didn't realise how big or long running it'd be.

I don't think the explicitly say trunks was grabbed right after cell games. He had longer hair when he killed future cell so I think it's a bit later when he has a haircut between his future cell victory and before super (before he got ss2)

My headcanon is he is the double trunks trunks, she takes him as he's pretty spare.

The Xeno chars except Pan are from a GT'esque timeline but it's never explicitly said to be GT IIRC. Obviously GT isn't canon to the original manga and filler even contradicts other filler so we can imagine a broad strokes timeline (I like to think of it as U12 guys timeline, changed so long ago saiyans have 4 instead of God ki)

Some characters remember some movie chars but not others, I keep working on lists on and off for all mediums of super.

Xeno Goku isn't any goku we met before, as he's gone at the end of GT, he's pulled from his memories in the sense of "who's the strongest guy you know" she didn't literally make him from memories that's a huge cosmic feat.

Goku and Trunks train a shit load before their first battles. Hence not going super Saiyan for Freeza and all base feats beyond this.
Never explicitly said but other characters, like Xeno vegeta probably got the offscreen time training like Goku and Trunks did so scaling them to GT or whatever is not possible for their pre training powers as we don't see it.

I'm pretty sure Vegeta was exhausted the first time Gravy shows up, there's some note of that in the dialogue.

I'm pretty sure that the villians have powered up again around the time of Fin's introduction and it's noted. So you can't scale their old versions to the current xeno team anymore you kinda have to reset scaling there.

That's all I got off the top of my memory.

Their bases being so high kinda works for SS4 matching blue later on.

[Yuji]

I think about this a lot too.

Thing to remember is this was just a promo manga at first and he probably didn't realise how big or long running it'd be.

I think the scaling makes a lot of sense and is very internally coherent in this first arc, though, even compared to the original series. Some of the more iffy match-ups are either unresolved, or vague one-off clashes, or off-screened. The fights and characters we do see have pretty decent scaling.

I remember it's in the next arcs that things get funny. I remember Blue CC Vegetto struggling against SS(1? 3? don't remember right now) Cumber on Prison Planet and using Kaioken against Golden Ape Cumber, but later SS3 Cumber is one shot by Golden Meta Cooler - Fu also states Cumber at full power wouldn't defeat Jiren, so that assumes either SS3 or Golden Ape Cumber. That same Cooler is way weaker than Fu, and later defeated by UI (Sign?) Goku, and SSB Vegetto later on can match Fu. So either Vegetto got nerfed on Prison Planet or they all got ridiculous boosts following it.

But it will be fun to note things down once I start the next arcs.

[TobyS]

I think about this a lot too.

Thing to remember is this was just a promo manga at first and he probably didn't realise how big or long running it'd be.

I think the scaling makes a lot of sense and is very internally coherent in this first arc, though, even compared to the original series. Some of the more iffy match-ups are either unresolved, or vague one-off clashes, or off-screened. The fights and characters we do see have pretty decent scaling.

I remember it's in the next arcs that things get funny. I remember Blue CC Vegetto struggling against SS(1? 3? don't remember right now) Cumber on Prison Planet and using Kaioken against Golden Ape Cumber, but later SS3 Cumber is one shot by Golden Meta Cooler - Fu also states Cumber at full power wouldn't defeat Jiren, so that assumes either SS3 or Golden Ape Cumber. That same Cooler is way weaker than Fu, and later defeated by UI (Sign?) Goku, and SSB Vegetto later on can match Fu. So either Vegetto got nerfed on Prison Planet or they all got ridiculous boosts following it.

But it will be fun to note things down once I start the next arcs.

So honestly as I recall the anime fucked this up and peoples memories are blurring the two.

Vegetto wasn't really struggling with Cumber in the manga. Cumbers slightly overrated and is mostly dangerous due to the Evil Ki thing. Once Vegeta masters it he is willing to throw down with Turles and Cumber in a 3 way battle.

UI seems to often be put on par with the fusions, rightly or wrongly, which means potentially below Jiren or a Jiren who kept training just like it was in the TOP. We don't really have a frame of reference for Jirens improvement rate vs the others.

Cooler is just stronger but Cumbers pretty tired as well by then, I think it's post all his fights in U6 like vs Jiren and Toppo.

I think Cumber and Metal cooler may have been extra amped by Fuu in their first appearances.

Goku beating Cooler and Vegetto being stronger one arc later can be put down to simply training between arcs (especially Veggetto who only needs small gains by his fusees to benefit a lot.

Goku doesn't do much to Fuu till he absorbs that universe energy as I recall, dark factor Fuu needs well the dark factor to compete with Vegetto.

The poor author has to scale all the characters together and xeno/gt to Super which is no mean feat.

So far I haven't seen a glaring problem. Gaps between arcs imo work to allow some characters to catch up more than others as not everyones growth is equal.

[Hugo Boss]

Who's the strongest GT character Moro arc Boo could beat?

Assuming he doesn't solo the verse, if he fuses with GT Oob, does he then?

Instead of fusing with GT Oob, how far does he get in Super by fusing with DBS Oob?

It depends on a lot of factors. Powerscalling GT vs. Super vs. Heroes usually open a can of worms, as consistence is almost impossible even if you consider Super on its own. It has different takes for anime, manga, movies and interviews. There are a lot of promotional material that muddy things even more.

But in my opinion, in this particular scenario you could maybe come up with something. After releasing the memories of the Grand Kaioshin in the manga, Boo powered-up to a level far beyond SSG, though it was said that a full-powered Blue was stronger than Moro after recovering his magic power and surpassing Boo. So, this version of Boo fits between SSG and SSGSS.

Since SSG and SSGSS are new additions after GT was finished, you won’t find means of comparison within the animated content, you probably will need to search for other official sources of information that may suggest how well these Super Saiyan forms would fare against GT characters.

I’m not really familiar with how consistent Heroes manga is in relation to anime or the card game, but I will assume it’s at least comparable to Super manga in that regard. From the top of my mind, I think Universe Mission suggests SS4 and SSGSS are relative to each other, specifically a version of SS4 Goku that comes after GT and a version of Blue Goku after the Tournament of Power.

Then, maybe this powered-up version of Boo/Grand Kaioshin could be up there with SS4 tier characters from GT. If he had all the divine power that Oob inherited back to his original owner, perhaps this fusion could beat even SS4 Gogeta, as Goku with Ultra Instinct is implied to be stronger than SS4 Vegetto and Oob’s divine power was so massive that it completely refilled Ultra Instinct against Moro.

[TobyS]

Who's the strongest GT character Moro arc Boo could beat?

Assuming he doesn't solo the verse, if he fuses with GT Oob, does he then?

Instead of fusing with GT Oob, how far does he get in Super by fusing with DBS Oob?

It depends on a lot of factors. Powerscalling GT vs. Super vs. Heroes usually open a can of worms, as consistence is almost impossible even if you consider Super on its own. It has different takes for anime, manga, movies and interviews. There are a lot of promotional material that muddy things even more.

But in my opinion, in this particular scenario you could maybe come up with something. After releasing the memories of the Grand Kaioshin in the manga, Boo powered-up to a level far beyond SSG, though it was said that a full-powered Blue was stronger than Moro after recovering his magic power and surpassing Boo. So, this version of Boo fits between SSG and SSGSS.

Since SSG and SSGSS are new additions after GT was finished, you won’t find means of comparison within the animated content, you probably will need to search for other official sources of information that may suggest how well these Super Saiyan forms would fare against GT characters.

I’m not really familiar with how consistent Heroes manga is in relation to anime or the card game, but I will assume it’s at least comparable to Super manga in that regard. From the top of my mind, I think Universe Mission suggests SS4 and SSGSS are relative to each other, specifically a version of SS4 Goku that comes after GT and a version of Blue Goku after the Tournament of Power.

Then, maybe this powered-up version of Boo/Grand Kaioshin could be up there with SS4 tier characters from GT. If he had all the divine power that Oob inherited back to his original owner, perhaps this fusion could beat even SS4 Gogeta, as Goku with Ultra Instinct is implied to be stronger than SS4 Vegetto and Oob’s divine power was so massive that it completely refilled Ultra Instinct against Moro.

Keep in mind SS4 equalling Blue is because the Heroes characters are really really fucking strong in base, they trained to their max using timeywimey stuff before their intro each time.
Beyond this Heroes chars are of course stronger than GT based on that plus the time after GT as training too.

If we go with SSG is stronger than Z era SS3 Veggetto and the whole Vegito is SS4 level as a baseline then pretty much anyone from super clears GT. Otherwise Buu is harder to scale but I still feel he'd solo, Uubu for sure defeats everything, he was baby level plus SSG tier boost on top? GG EZ

[QuakingStar]

Who's the strongest GT character Moro arc Boo could beat?

Assuming he doesn't solo the verse, if he fuses with GT Oob, does he then?

Instead of fusing with GT Oob, how far does he get in Super by fusing with DBS Oob?

It depends on a lot of factors. Powerscalling GT vs. Super vs. Heroes usually open a can of worms, as consistence is almost impossible even if you consider Super on its own. It has different takes for anime, manga, movies and interviews. There are a lot of promotional material that muddy things even more.

But in my opinion, in this particular scenario you could maybe come up with something. After releasing the memories of the Grand Kaioshin in the manga, Boo powered-up to a level far beyond SSG, though it was said that a full-powered Blue was stronger than Moro after recovering his magic power and surpassing Boo. So, this version of Boo fits between SSG and SSGSS.

Since SSG and SSGSS are new additions after GT was finished, you won’t find means of comparison within the animated content, you probably will need to search for other official sources of information that may suggest how well these Super Saiyan forms would fare against GT characters.

I’m not really familiar with how consistent Heroes manga is in relation to anime or the card game, but I will assume it’s at least comparable to Super manga in that regard. From the top of my mind, I think Universe Mission suggests SS4 and SSGSS are relative to each other, specifically a version of SS4 Goku that comes after GT and a version of Blue Goku after the Tournament of Power.

Then, maybe this powered-up version of Boo/Grand Kaioshin could be up there with SS4 tier characters from GT. If he had all the divine power that Oob inherited back to his original owner, perhaps this fusion could beat even SS4 Gogeta, as Goku with Ultra Instinct is implied to be stronger than SS4 Vegetto and Oob’s divine power was so massive that it completely refilled Ultra Instinct against Moro.

Keep in mind SS4 equalling Blue is because the Heroes characters are really really fucking strong in base, they trained to their max using timeywimey stuff before their intro each time.
Beyond this Heroes chars are of course stronger than GT based on that plus the time after GT as training too.

If we go with SSG is stronger than Z era SS3 Veggetto and the whole Vegito is SS4 level as a baseline then pretty much anyone from super clears GT. Otherwise Buu is harder to scale but I still feel he'd solo, Uubu for sure defeats everything, he was baby level plus SSG tier boost on top? GG EZ

CC Goku trained with Grand Priest, in the process gaining control of UIO, he then trained in a makeshift time chamber with Vegeta and in the process gained control over UI. He also absorbed an insane amount of energy from the divine tree. There is zero impications he is weaker in base than Xeno Goku and in fact he effortlessly dodges and blocks Xeno Goku's physical attacks in recent chapters/anime episodes. This implies SS4/SS4LB is relative to Blue/Blue Evolved in the anime, while SS4 Limit Breaker is relative to Blue in the manga. Basically, CC Goku was only weaker than Xeno Goku in base for a short time.

[TobyS]

It depends on a lot of factors. Powerscalling GT vs. Super vs. Heroes usually open a can of worms, as consistence is almost impossible even if you consider Super on its own. It has different takes for anime, manga, movies and interviews. There are a lot of promotional material that muddy things even more.

But in my opinion, in this particular scenario you could maybe come up with something. After releasing the memories of the Grand Kaioshin in the manga, Boo powered-up to a level far beyond SSG, though it was said that a full-powered Blue was stronger than Moro after recovering his magic power and surpassing Boo. So, this version of Boo fits between SSG and SSGSS.

Since SSG and SSGSS are new additions after GT was finished, you won’t find means of comparison within the animated content, you probably will need to search for other official sources of information that may suggest how well these Super Saiyan forms would fare against GT characters.

I’m not really familiar with how consistent Heroes manga is in relation to anime or the card game, but I will assume it’s at least comparable to Super manga in that regard. From the top of my mind, I think Universe Mission suggests SS4 and SSGSS are relative to each other, specifically a version of SS4 Goku that comes after GT and a version of Blue Goku after the Tournament of Power.

Then, maybe this powered-up version of Boo/Grand Kaioshin could be up there with SS4 tier characters from GT. If he had all the divine power that Oob inherited back to his original owner, perhaps this fusion could beat even SS4 Gogeta, as Goku with Ultra Instinct is implied to be stronger than SS4 Vegetto and Oob’s divine power was so massive that it completely refilled Ultra Instinct against Moro.

Keep in mind SS4 equalling Blue is because the Heroes characters are really really fucking strong in base, they trained to their max using timeywimey stuff before their intro each time.
Beyond this Heroes chars are of course stronger than GT based on that plus the time after GT as training too.

If we go with SSG is stronger than Z era SS3 Veggetto and the whole Vegito is SS4 level as a baseline then pretty much anyone from super clears GT. Otherwise Buu is harder to scale but I still feel he'd solo, Uubu for sure defeats everything, he was baby level plus SSG tier boost on top? GG EZ

CC Goku trained with Grand Priest, in the process gaining control of UIO, he then trained in a makeshift time chamber with Vegeta and in the process gained control over UI. He also absorbed an insane amount of energy from the divine tree. There is zero impications he is weaker in base than Xeno Goku and in fact he effortlessly dodges and blocks Xeno Goku's physical attacks in recent chapters/anime episodes. This implies SS4/SS4LB is relative to Blue/Blue Evolved in the anime, while SS4 Limit Breaker is relative to Blue in the manga. Basically, CC Goku was only weaker than Xeno Goku in base for a short time.

Goku trained with GP between the first and second arcs. We don't see him face Xeno again, we don't know if he just got better at UI or got stronger. He gets taken out by lags spam who's later beaten by Piccolo and 17 of all people.
Even if he got stronger there we don't know that Xeno didn't train the same or more in between arcs.

The makeshift timechamber thing another arc or two later he might have pulled ahead, but that was more UI practice than gains once again.

There's nothing saying he absorbed the tree energy permanently, he'd be so far ahead of anyone people would point it out.

Blocking Xenos punch was more like Xeno being cheeky and squaring up in the tourney arc, not a serious attempt at sucker punching.

But yeah I was mostly talking about the first arc and I really only care about the manga as scaling in the anime is bad like the real super anime.

So yeah, Manga heroes have insane base feats, but I kinda use the Base for CC from the super manga, hence my assessment.

In the arc where the amped SS4 vs Janemba is introduced it's once again above blue, otherwise there would be no point in juicing them up and unlocking it vs just using blue.

Limit breaker SS4 is above SSB, possibly E and UIO, at least in its intro. Gogeta outperforms Vegito vs Broly and Fuu. Maybe on par in the latest arc. I don't know how they are going to catch up for full UI and Ego/Evil Ki controlled.

[QuakingStar]

This kind of has to do with strength so I will post it.

Spoiler warning.

Spoiler:

https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_2069.html

Orange Piccolo has God Ki, and this is referred to as his true power being awakened.. this implies Piccolo had God Ki within him the whole time.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I've taken this to meant that Orange Piccolo is equivalent to Super Saiyan God, a legendary god form of Namekian that only a chosen few are capable of achieving.

Either that, or this is a power that the son of Katas once held and was the reason for his immense potential.

[ankokudaishogun]

The "extra bit" from Shenlong being the ability to unlock divine ki makes sense if it's because Kami was... Well, God.