Toyotarou's Ideas Leave No Impact on Dragon Ball Super

[The Monkey King]

Recently I've realised something frustrating and kinda sad about Toyotarou's manga exclusive arcs of Dragon Ball Super, that is they leave no real lasting impact on the status quo of the franchise.

A very clear example of this is that the Moro and Granolah arcs didn't establish any new recurring characters that would appear as key characters in future stories even though they were perfectly set up to do so.

Take Merus for example, the angel turned mortal, we haven't seen any of him since the end of the Moro arc and the Titular Granolah from his own arc, hell in his case Toyo didn't even bother giving us a throw away line that his wish to be the strongest would be undone so I guess he'll be dead by the time EOZ rolls around.



This is very different to the original manga and the movies written by Toriyama wherein each story would give us a new member of the core cast to help fight in future battles. This list includes: Vegeta, Piccolo, #17 and 18, Fat Buu, Uub, Freeza, Broly and I'm certain if a new DBS movie comes out Gamma 1 and Dr Hedo will be in it.

Another thing is that even the "development" characters go through (let's be honest mainly Goku and Vegeta) seem to be swept under the rug. Remember Goku mastering UI and being complemented by Beerus stating he "Fights like a God" just for in the Granolah arc Goku's perfection of the Silver Haired MUI for to be removed because of arbitrary time-limits and he can't "keep his heart calm in battle". But I guess you can't continue to milk Goku if he no longer needs to develop as a fighter lol



Also remember Vegeta's training on Yardrat? A shame his forced spirit fission training is literally never brought up again after the battle with Moro, I even expect UE to quietly be shelved as it turns out Vegeta's original transformation (which just got beaten up the entire arc and didn't accomplish much of anything) was just hot air and now he's focusing on meditation as that's the way Toriyama wants it.


But at least Toyo managed to tie it into Vegeta's meditation stance on Yardrat, that's cute.

On that note it's kinda hilarious how Toriyama just supersedes Toyotarou especially now that the manga is adapting Super Hero, Toyotarou clearly wrote Gohan to have his head in the game since the TOP and kept up with his training and never used Super saiyan but nope now in the Super Hero arc Gohan has been a slacker who has to rely on super saiyan and re-unlock his Ultimate form... again.

Also going by the manga's continuity Goku and Vegeta surpassed Broly during the Granolah arc



but nope now Broly's power is a threat to Goku and Vegeta and even worries Beerus




also Piccolo speaks of Goku and vegeta as equals power level wise when comparing them to the Gammas (they're Blue level as far as Toriyama in concerned) even though in the Moro arc he saw UI Goku in action.



Oh yeah it's been a year since the Black Freeza reveal and we've heard nothing about him since...

Then there's the weird thing of Toyotarou's work barely being featured in any videogames or other Dragon Ball merchandise like figurines.

All of the above makes his manga arcs look like nothing more than glorified fan fiction that Toriyama sometimes glazes over but ultimately doesn't pay it much mind as it never touches broader Dragon Ball, it's in its own bubble that can't really change the status quo and can be ignored and discarded at a moment's notice.

[Skar]

I did get that feeling. To be fair, the arcs outlined by Toriyama didn't have a major impact on the films so it would make sense arcs that he only supervised would have even less of an impact. There were three arcs between RoF and Broly but only the ToP was referenced in Broly and Jiren in SH. I think the only time we saw those non-film characters was a single frame in Broly of other universe participants and gods. Some of those Gods of Destruction were designed by Toyotaro so I guess he did contribute something that was featured in a film.

[Seekeroftruth]

Moro arc stole heavily from Cell arc.

Granola arc was only unique one that didn't use Toriyama previous work but had paper thin plot.

[WittyUsername]

Moro arc stole heavily from Cell arc.

Granola arc was only unique one that didn't use Toriyama previous work but had paper thin plot.

I wouldn’t even say that Granolah is especially unique. We’ve had stories in the past about villains who want revenge against the Saiyans. Granolah just happens to be more sympathetic than Dr. Lychee and Baby.

[Vegard Aune]

I feel like this is an issue with Super in general, really. Like you said, neither Broly nor Super Hero have followed up on Ultra Instinct, and the Universe 6 folks also pretty much just disappeared entirely after the tournament... until they came back... for another tournament... and then they disappeared again. And Gohan in Super Hero... That was irksome even just looking at Super the anime on its own. Like, Gohan asked Piccolo to retrain him at the end of F. They trained together just before the Tournament of Power. And then two stories later Gohan is back to being a total slacker? (I mean the ending does reveal that he had been practicing the Makankosappo, but... his battle senses were non-existent.) Just... how many times are we going to go through "Gohan has really let himself go and needs to regain his battle instincts before this new threat overwhelms us!"? Honestly I feel like there isn't much justification for it anymore because, yeah, Gohan doesn't like fighting... But trouble sure does keep making its way to Earth constantly and requiring him to step up anyway. And I mean, while he doesn't enjoy fighting for the sake of fighting, he very obviously is quite fond of Piccolo. So it doesn't seem like it would be too hard to justify him training with Piccolo on a semi-regular basis just because it's a way to spend time with the guy. So while his slacker attitude might be more egregious in the manga arc... It's not not egregious in the movie either.

[Seekeroftruth]

I feel like this is an issue with Super in general, really. Like you said, neither Broly nor Super Hero have followed up on Ultra Instinct, and the Universe 6 folks also pretty much just disappeared entirely after the tournament... until they came back... for another tournament... and then they disappeared again. And Gohan in Super Hero... That was irksome even just looking at Super the anime on its own. Like, Gohan asked Piccolo to retrain him at the end of F. They trained together just before the Tournament of Power. And then two stories later Gohan is back to being a total slacker? (I mean the ending does reveal that he had been practicing the Makankosappo, but... his battle senses were non-existent.) Just... how many times are we going to go through "Gohan has really let himself go and needs to regain his battle instincts before this new threat overwhelms us!"? Honestly I feel like there isn't much justification for it anymore because, yeah, Gohan doesn't like fighting... But trouble sure does keep making its way to Earth constantly and requiring him to step up anyway. And I mean, while he doesn't enjoy fighting for the sake of fighting, he very obviously is quite fond of Piccolo. So it doesn't seem like it would be too hard to justify him training with Piccolo on a semi-regular basis just because it's a way to spend time with the guy. So while his slacker attitude might be more egregious in the manga arc... It's not not egregious in the movie either.

Do you think Gohan will only learn when a villain like zamasu kills pan and videl in front of him and he is too weak to stop them?

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I think a lot of these continuity bugs come up because of how loosely Super is written, and how Toriyama handles continuity when he's writing alone vs supervising. He only really seems to care about continuity when he's writing solo. Pan flying didn't appear in the manga and it was ignored in the movie even though the anime features her flying as a baby.
There was also some quote (which I think you can find on this site) where he referred to Super as a "loose continuation" of his manga. So he might only pay attention to details that he personally came up with.

[Dbzfan94]

Super in general falls under this. The arcs have no real cohesion or connection beyond minor details. it's just all around sloppy. Most of them have nothing to do with each other. They just happen like the old Toei movies. The ToP bult up all these powerhouses, and then they're never seen again. Whatever is after Superhero (assuming its not Black Freeza) will probably be something else that's totally irrelevant to what came before it.

Modern DB as a whole really just feels like it could be just the movies, because thats the only bits of true connectivity we get, and even then its minor.

[LoganForkHands73]

Super in general falls under this. The arcs have no real cohesion or connection beyond minor details. it's just all around sloppy. Most of them have nothing to do with each other. They just happen like the old Toei movies. The ToP bult up all these powerhouses, and then they're never seen again. Whatever is after Superhero (assuming its not Black Freeza) will probably be something else that's totally irrelevant to what came before it.

Modern DB as a whole really just feels like it could be just the movies, because thats the only bits of true connectivity we get, and even then its minor.

Yeah, realising that Super completely lacks any sort of consistent direction absolutely murked my interest in it. This has been fairly obvious for some time, but the manga in particular has been on autopilot for some time. It's hard to care much when every individual contributor to the project just does their own thing, isolated from everything else.

More to OP's point, I didn't think the lack of new recurring characters was much of an issue, but it does certainly contribute to that overall lack of connectivity, not just to itself but to the original manga as well. We now have a staggering backlog of ostensibly important characters who just aren't being used; as soon as their original purpose is served, they are placed in manga-limbo. That's not how Toriyama has ever rolled. Yamcha was offering his minor contributions right up to the end of the Cell arc. Broly, Cheelai and Lemo appeared Super Hero despite their irrelevance to the main plot. I mean, if the Saiyan arc were produced today, Vegeta probably wouldn't have returned in the following arc, he'd just be nebulously off in space somewhere It sucks that we've been forced to accept that we're not guaranteed to see Hit, Caulifla, Cabba, Kale, Champa, Jiren, Toppo, Belmod, Merus or Granolah in the main series again, outside of references and cameos.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball Super is mostly designed to be as inoffensive as possible, which also means that Shueisha and Toei Animation want to be able to disavow it and start over from scratch using the 1984 comic as a basis at any time should Dragon Ball Super as a brand not work out. They don't want to treat it as as much of an inevitably piece of history that future projects can be based off of as much as possible.

[Toxin45]

Super in general falls under this. The arcs have no real cohesion or connection beyond minor details. it's just all around sloppy. Most of them have nothing to do with each other. They just happen like the old Toei movies. The ToP bult up all these powerhouses, and then they're never seen again. Whatever is after Superhero (assuming its not Black Freeza) will probably be something else that's totally irrelevant to what came before it.

Modern DB as a whole really just feels like it could be just the movies, because thats the only bits of true connectivity we get, and even then its minor.

Yeah, realising that Super completely lacks any sort of consistent direction absolutely murked my interest in it. This has been fairly obvious for some time, but the manga in particular has been on autopilot for some time. It's hard to care much when every individual contributor to the project just does their own thing, isolated from everything else.

More to OP's point, I didn't think the lack of new recurring characters was much of an issue, but it does certainly contribute to that overall lack of connectivity, not just to itself but to the original manga as well. We now have a staggering backlog of ostensibly important characters who just aren't being used; as soon as their original purpose is served, they are placed in manga-limbo. That's not how Toriyama has ever rolled. Yamcha was offering his minor contributions right up to the end of the Cell arc. Broly, Cheelai and Lemo appeared Super Hero despite their irrelevance to the main plot. I mean, if the Saiyan arc were produced today, Vegeta probably wouldn't have returned in the following arc, he'd just be nebulously off in space somewhere It sucks that we've been forced to accept that we're not guaranteed to see Hit, Caulifla, Cabba, Kale, Champa, Jiren, Toppo, Belmod, Merus or Granolah in the main series again, outside of references and cameos.

Unless super hero is over seems like they want to move past the end of z first.

[Thanos]

Toyotarou seems best suited in an advisory capacity for Toriyama's outlines. You always get the feeling of that Dragon Ball authenticity when Toriyama is ultimately at the helm of any given project--but as the person completely in charge? Hm, I don't know about that. If it's him or nothing, that's preferable, I suppose.

[Alkiser]

Recently I've realised something frustrating and kinda sad about Toyotarou's manga exclusive arcs of Dragon Ball Super, that is they leave no real lasting impact on the status quo of the franchise.

A very clear example of this is that the Moro and Granolah arcs didn't establish any new recurring characters that would appear as key characters in future stories even though they were perfectly set up to do so.

Take Merus for example, the angel turned mortal, we haven't seen any of him since the end of the Moro arc and the Titular Granolah from his own arc, hell in his case Toyo didn't even bother giving us a throw away line that his wish to be the strongest would be undone so I guess he'll be dead by the time EOZ rolls around.



This is very different to the original manga and the movies written by Toriyama wherein each story would give us a new member of the core cast to help fight in future battles. This list includes: Vegeta, Piccolo, #17 and 18, Fat Buu, Uub, Freeza, Broly and I'm certain if a new DBS movie comes out Gamma 1 and Dr Hedo will be in it.

Another thing is that even the "development" characters go through (let's be honest mainly Goku and Vegeta) seem to be swept under the rug. Remember Goku mastering UI and being complemented by Beerus stating he "Fights like a God" just for in the Granolah arc Goku's perfection of the Silver Haired MUI for to be removed because of arbitrary time-limits and he can't "keep his heart calm in battle". But I guess you can't continue to milk Goku if he no longer needs to develop as a fighter lol



Also remember Vegeta's training on Yardrat? A shame his forced spirit fission training is literally never brought up again after the battle with Moro, I even expect UE to quietly be shelved as it turns out Vegeta's original transformation (which just got beaten up the entire arc and didn't accomplish much of anything) was just hot air and now he's focusing on meditation as that's the way Toriyama wants it.


But at least Toyo managed to tie it into Vegeta's meditation stance on Yardrat, that's cute.

On that note it's kinda hilarious how Toriyama just supersedes Toyotarou especially now that the manga is adapting Super Hero, Toyotarou clearly wrote Gohan to have his head in the game since the TOP and kept up with his training and never used Super saiyan but nope now in the Super Hero arc Gohan has been a slacker who has to rely on super saiyan and re-unlock his Ultimate form... again.

Also going by the manga's continuity Goku and Vegeta surpassed Broly during the Granolah arc



but nope now Broly's power is a threat to Goku and Vegeta and even worries Beerus




also Piccolo speaks of Goku and vegeta as equals power level wise when comparing them to the Gammas (they're Blue level as far as Toriyama in concerned) even though in the Moro arc he saw UI Goku in action.



Oh yeah it's been a year since the Black Freeza reveal and we've heard nothing about him since...

Then there's the weird thing of Toyotarou's work barely being featured in any videogames or other Dragon Ball merchandise like figurines.

All of the above makes his manga arcs look like nothing more than glorified fan fiction that Toriyama sometimes glazes over but ultimately doesn't pay it much mind as it never touches broader Dragon Ball, it's in its own bubble that can't really change the status quo and can be ignored and discarded at a moment's notice.

Some examples don't make sense

1. merus is a member of the galactic patrol so he won't be a regular on the team, his thread just ended so he didn't have to appear in the Granolah story or SH would exist.
2. force spirit fission is not a ki blast technique to need to be invoked regularly, who would Gas or Granolah have to fuse with to need it?
There was a reference to it in the rest in chapter 74 when Vegeta tells Granolah that no fusion would work on him anymore.
3. This dialogue nowhere suggests that Broly has surpassed them but that he is improving with control of his power, just because they are stronger than him doesn't mean that Broly is suddenly not a threat as an out-of-control berserker, weaker or not unnecessary chaos is still unnecessary chaos.
4. like we haven't heard anything about Frieza too much in the anime from the events of Broly to SH and there it's been about two years.
5. because maybe they're just that strong, there's already been a lot of interpretation on this topic in the anime let alone in the manga.
6. I also recall that Moro and Gas were included in Vegeta's enumeration in the SH manga saga, and in the Granola saga Vegeta compared Granola's technique to Moro's. So the EU will not be forgotten.

In my opinion this post is largely ignoring facts or not knowing