Dragon Ball Daima (2024)

[SupremeKai25]

I hope that DB Daima is a soft reboot of the power levels.

The power creep is completely unchecked and out of control since the Anime ended.

The Anime ended with the idea that MUI Goku as seen in the ToP was a form that left Beerus and the other Destroyers in complete awe. There is no actual rematch between Goku and Beerus, but you are left with the idea that Goku could have finally closed the gap with Beerus. This is a good conclusion for the Super series.

Then comes the Manga-only arcs and surprise! MUI Goku is actually not really Mastered UI at all, and he's still worthless fodder compared to Beerus. Gohan never trained with the Gods a single day of his life but he stopped studying insects for a day and now he's probably the strongest in the universe.

Even the major antagonists in 2016/17/18 made more sense in terms of power-scaling. Hit was an assassin who relied on hax over power, Zamasu a cheater who relied on stolen body (that he couldn't fully control) and Immortality, and Jiren sacrificed pretty much his entire social life to get to that level of power.

Meanwhile, villains of the Manga-only arc just wish to be the strongest and *poof* they are the strongest and able to shit-stomp Goku and friends.

Too much power creep, too much escalation of the power levels.

This is why I have no problem at all if the Super Anime doesn't continue with the Manga-only arcs and I actually hope that Daima resets the power levels a little. I hope they continue with the plot point at the end of the Super Anime that Goku can't use UI at will anymore, for instance.

Seriously, how many versions of Ultra Instinct do we have in the Manga? UI omen, Mastered Ultra Instinct, "True" UI (whatever that is), all of which are apparently still fodder to Beerus Hilarious power creep.

[peterx]

Sigh.. looks like TOEI truly don't care if the original Japanese voice cast dies before we ever see the DBS main series continuation.. as if they rather do ANYTHING than hurrying to make as many episodes as possible before the inevitable death of the cast.

[LoganForkHands73]

As we all know, the idea of Goku being reverted into a child form was one of the key premises in Toriyama’s concept for Dragon Ball GT. Although he had no intention of being hands-on in the production after just completing the manga run, he was the one who fielded the idea of how Goku’s journey might continue after beating Buu.

Did Toriyama come up with the idea of Goku being a kid? .

It was Kozo Morishita

Toriyama-sensei christens the series! The origin of “GT”?

Planning for Dragon Ball GT went forward with the next generation of characters, but looking at the series as a whole, it ended up being Son Goku’s story.
When all is said and done, the protagonist of Dragon Ball is Son Goku. Characters such as Piccolo, Vegeta, or Trunks may be popular too, but in the end it’s Goku. As a creator I felt that in my bones, and Dragon Ball GT‘s biggest sticking point, was how to intertwine Goku into the story of Pan and the rest of the next generation of kids. That’s when I thought of turning Goku back into a kid himself. It was also determined that since Dragon Ball Z had taken its hard-edged story developments to their limit, it would be difficult for this original series to do “here comes an even stronger enemy”-type battle stories. There was also a thought that we should return to the initial Dragon Ball TV series. And so it ended up being an adventure story were they travel through outer space.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

Ah shit, thanks for the correction. I was thinking of that interview where Toriyama laments that the series became so insanely focused on fighting but that probably had nothing to do with GT. Either way, I guess Toriyama is a fan of the idea.

Wow! You know, that's been my mind of Daima thus far. Maybe this is too far-reaching of a prediction, but I've been wondering... what if Daima is meant to be something of a "VERY soft reboot" of DB's 'Super continuity'? I know, it sounds insane, but given how far Goku and the gang have come, power-wise...

Side note, but as someone who ADORES the Majin Buu arc, can I just say that I'm thrilled that the arc isn't getting JUST a movie to tie into it and its lore, but a whole-ass anime!

Frankly, this all feels a like a "reversal" of how the Majin Buu arc is generally treated by DB in a meta sense. Usually, it'd be Frieza and Cell getting this 'over-the-top' treatment with an anime, while BUU would be the one stuck with a single movie tie-in.

Agreed, some Buu arc love is well overdue.

All the attempts to peer into a creative process that we have no true concrete visibility into is cracking me up.

Like why does it even matter who or how the story was conceived or written at this point?

It’s no more or less pointless than any other kind of speculation. I like the behind-the-scenes shit.

[TheMikado]

That's not really true though, is it? Dragon Ball thrived during its original run by doing what the masses wanted.

The Journey to the West parody adventure story the manga started as was very unpopular, so they shifted fighting story more influenced by the very popular Fist of the North Star. Focusing on combat and conflict was so popular the series just kept leaning into that until it ended.

That's not exactly what I'm talking about. Dragon Ball is, at its core, a fantasy adventure series about martial arts alongside some heavy comedic elements thrown in thanks to its creator's own area of expertise. None of that has changed with Daima. It was, still is, and will continue to be recognizably Dragon Ball.

But the devil is in the details, which is that "area of expertise" I just mentioned. Everything from the manga's first arcs to Piccolo to Vegeta to Freeza to Cell and especially Boo has been built on Toriyama violating tropes, swerving against common predictions and build-up, and even deriding the audience's own hopes for the plot; sometimes for comedic effect, but often because it just benefited whatever he wanted to do with the story. There isn't a single arc in the original manga that doesn't put Toriyama's background as a gag writer to use, with examples so limitless that you could actually argue the man was actively subverting the very same shounen fads he invented while creating them.

What we're seeing with Daima here is all very much in Toriyama's wheelhouse, which is why a premise like "the cast turns into little rascals" is so unsurprising to the vast majority of people familiar with his style. There's a reason the franchise's light-hearted, playful elements are always given the most emphasis whenever Toriyama delves into his process as a writer, especially in DB's modern era where he's less bound by editorial pressure. It's not just about being spiteful or subverting purely for subversion's sake or whatever, but it's totally in line with what we'd expect from an artist of Toriyama's caliber, and it's absolutely promising coming from an author who understands his world, its tone, and its own brand of storytelling more than anyone.

Taking one (1) fan (I imagine you meant Toyo-tarou) and filtering him through Toriyama, Victory Uchida, Shueisha publishing, and fuck knows how many layers of ill-gotten nurturing and then saying "This is proof that there is no alternative" makes no sense.

Two things:

1. I am not referring to Toyotaro. Of all the takeaways I've seen from my post so far, this one befuddles me.

2. Obviously, many creatives are involved in a work like this with differing levels of input and authority. This isn't actually relevant to what I said.

I can only assume you meant to quote someone else.

I will agree this feels very Toriyama-eqse.

I will hard disagree Toriyama is better without strict editors. If we’re being honest the series run essentially shifted to an entirely different genre at one point.

[Mr Baggins]

I will agree this feels very Toriyama-eqse.

I will hard disagree Toriyama is better without strict editors. If we’re being honest the series run essentially shifted to an entirely different genre at one point.

I'm not saying he's better or worse. I'm saying that, without that degree of strict pressure, there's a lot more freedom to work on whatever plays to his interests.

There are drawbacks to that freedom, too. Toriyama is a profoundly lazy man. Without pressure, he's often less inclined to be so involved in projects that may not motivate him intrinsically; look no further than the Super anime for a prime example of that.

Him putting more into Daima than usual indicates that he probably finds its ideas and concepts more engaging than the pitches given to him throughout Super, whether he came up with them or not.

[Zephyr]

As far as restriction and freedom go, I think both can cause Toriyama to bring out some good stuff.

For a more restricted Toriyama, I think it depends on who's restricting him. I think a lot of Dragon Ball's best stuff was made when Toriyama was working with Torishima, so I think it could be really cool to see what they would cook up if they worked together again today.

I liked what the freedom Takeda gave him resulted in during the Boo arc, but I think that headspace for Toriyama was partially informed by how restricted he'd been prior; it was in part that long stretch of seriousness which then gave way to using those serious trappings for funnies. So a freer Toriyama would shine more once he's let off of a leash he's been on, I think.

[goku the krump dancer]

Analyzing everything we’ve gotten since Battle of Gods, one thing I can say for use is that Toriyama and the Gang sure can throw a mean curve ball!

[ABED]

Would we really consider them "strict"? From what I've read, they weren't strict as much as he valued their input.

[MasenkoHA]

Would we really consider them "strict"? From what I've read, they weren't strict as much as he valued their input.

Right, I think the fact that Toriyama was willing to listen to Torishima's input about the Artificial Humans even when he was no longer his current editor shows he respected his feedback.

[TheMikado]

Would we really consider them "strict"? From what I've read, they weren't strict as much as he valued their input.

Right, I think the fact that Toriyama was willing to listen to Torishima's input about the Artificial Humans even when he was no longer his current editor shows he respected his feedback.

Maybe strict is the incorrect word but from interviews it did seem that Torishima pushed Toriyama in many ways that may have felt more hands on than his other editorial staff. I think this also shows in its output and that editorial stretch is a massive contributor to the success of the series today.

[Seekeroftruth]

So let me this straight. Everything in DB Super has been some variation of events in DBZ. And now they are turning them into kids as a call back to DB:GT. I don't want to say it but they are running out of ideas.

[Grimlock]

Then I believe that what you mean is that it sucks that this apparently won't make the story move foward and take us out of those damn 10 years

Exactly. Progression is what we all should be prioritizing, not stagnancy.

I don't see them becoming kids again as a problem because, as someone else already said in this thread, it could be important to establish the "new version of EoZ", where the characters would be much younger than their actual ages

That would actually manage to be an even worse decision than the decision to end Future Trunks saga the way they did, and trust me when I say, to top even the ending of Future Trunks saga is not humanly possible. You really have to go beyond the human capabilities to come up with something worse than that. The very last thing I want is for the cast to turn young just so we can spend even more time with them. It's high time for Uub, Pan, Goten, Trunks, Bra and Marron to take over.

Well, I appreciate your effort in trying to make sense of this, but it's been a long time since I personally jumped on the bandwagon of believers that there's no way EoZ can be the same as before and that the whole thing will have to be rewritten. It's impossible to tell of Toriyama forgot that line from Bulma, but I can say that it's quite possible that he ignored it and just wants to move on with the story the way he sees fit.

I'm just saying that, at this moment, that line still works. Because you often see people saying that it doesn't. The only scenarios for that line to not work anymore is if you take the manga sagas into account (I think Goku and Bulma see each other in Granolah saga, and that takes place in AGE 781), or if you are one of these people who take everything to the letter, without considering the possibility of characters rounding up or down something (which is something you must assume in some occasions in order to avoid issues).

I wonder if this is taking a while to happen for creative reasons, maybe Toriyama doesn't really like Goten, Present Trunks, Uub and Pan, or doesn't have faith that they could carry the series from here on in, AFAIK Goku and Vegeta have already become " masters" in EoZ, their arcs are already over and they have nothing left to learn, like, I like GT, and GT tries to continue with Goku, but the vast majority don't like GT, so...this could indicate that Toriyama doesn't want to reach EoZ because he's afraid he won't know what to do after this event? (which is quite ironic because it is precisely in a post-EoZ story that there are more possibilities for anything to happen)

And there's Dragon Ball Online. Seeing as how they like to revisit things, Toriyama could have very well give his own spin on what was done before, readapting so that some events don't happen in the far future and stuff like that.

I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't affect the story at all, the 2008 OVA is there and, were Abo and Cado ever mentioned again? The events of that movie? Tarble? Yes, he is mentioned twice afterwards but remove those mentions and literally nothing will change

Unfortunately, no. And I swear to Dende if they mention Tarble for a third time without even showing him... It's really sad that these things happen. They come up with something interesting, or that can be interesting, but don't do anything with it afterwards.

Fortunately I think this story will be huge stuff for the chronology, fortunately I think there is more chance of this story being a big deal for the main chronology, since Battle of Gods the stories in which Toriyama is most involved are the ones that matter most to Super (in short, those of the films), U6, Zamasu, ToP, Moro and Granolla, all had little involvement from him, which is why they don't seem to be very relevant sagas with little connection between them.

Eh, I wouldn't say Moro and Granolah sagas "matter most". I'll elaborate a bit below.

Yes, many people do. You've read this thread. You know people care about the manga.

Yeah, well, Shueisha evidently don't care. If they did, they would have done something, anything with them by now. Toriyama? Eh, if I were to guess, I don't think he cares either. No mention of these sagas anywhere, not in his movies, not in any other place, be it interviews or whatever. The only entity I can see caring about these sagas is Toei. Toei might be wanting to adapt these sagas but gets repeatedly told "no" by Shueisha.

Are you expecting Dragon Ball Daima to make any sort of mention to the manga sagas?

[JulieYBM]

So let me this straight. Everything in DB Super has been some variation of events in DBZ. And now they are turning them into kids as a call back to DB:GT. I don't want to say it but they are running out of ideas.

You can, in fact, make good works of art using ideas more than once. Creative people have done it since the beginning of time. Prior art is to be built on and learned from.

[MasenkoHA]

So let me this straight. Everything in DB Super has been some variation of events in DBZ. And now they are turning them into kids as a call back to DB:GT. I don't want to say it but they are running out of ideas.

Every arc in Z was just some variation of the Daimao arc. The Daimao arc was just a retread on Goku's fight with Tao Pai Pai. The first arc was just a variation on Journey to West.

[ABED]

Would we really consider them "strict"? From what I've read, they weren't strict as much as he valued their input.

Right, I think the fact that Toriyama was willing to listen to Torishima's input about the Artificial Humans even when he was no longer his current editor shows he respected his feedback.

Maybe strict is the incorrect word but from interviews it did seem that Torishima pushed Toriyama in many ways that may have felt more hands on than his other editorial staff. I think this also shows in its output and that editorial stretch is a massive contributor to the success of the series today.

Which is a normal part of the creative process. Constructive feedback is good. Listening is also good. Meddling is bad but on the opposite end, getting to the point where you don't have to listen to anyone can also be bad.

[Psajdak]

Nobody gives a fuck about Uub, Pan, Goten, Trunks, Bra and Marron.

The only thing girls have going for them is their Rule34 fanart.

[MasenkoHA]

Nobody gives a fuck about Uub, Pan, Goten, Trunks, Bra and Marron.

The only thing girls have going for them is their Rule34 fanart.

This is clearly not true, with the possible exception of Marron and Bra

Also none of those girls have ever been depicted over the age of 13 so unmm gross?

[super michael]

Nobody gives a fuck about Uub, Pan, Goten, Trunks, Bra and Marron.

The only thing girls have going for them are their Rule34 fanart.

People does care about those characters.

In the anime of DBS Goten and Trunks has been treated really bad and now looks like they are again treated very bad in Dragon Ball Daima. In the manga of DBS they are treated better, although still bad at times.
It is like their only role is to be left out of everything.

Pan in DBS she has been treated good.

Marron she hasn't done anything. Bra she hasn't done anything in DBS Anime, but she did help in the manga.

[GhostEmperorX]

AFAIK so far (which is probably not that much), Toriyama isn't even that kind of author so it's ultimately pointless to expect him to go in that direction (aka anything to do with "next generation" stories).
Best to look elsewhere for that.

[Lukmendes]

I don't know why people keep repeating this nonsense. Did they forget that the anime came first and was the main product? That the manga initially served only to promote the series? DBS (anime) was never adapted from anything other than the outlines that Toriyama provided to both Toei and Toyotaro. Therefore, they are not obligated to do anything related to Moro, Granola, or anything else. In fact, the only good part about DBD thing is finally ending this discussion: as it is now clear that Toei, Bandai, and Shueisha couldn't care less about this manga, having no mentions of exclusive events that happenned there in any animated media.

They are not obligated to do stuff, I'm just wondering why even something as fanservicey as DBH does nothing with manga stuff, though if it's just "they don't want to" that's good enough.

I hope that DB Daima is a soft reboot of the power levels.

The power creep is completely unchecked and out of control since the Anime ended.

The power creep has been out of control since Roshi blew up the moon back in the 21st tournament at the latest lol.

Characters have a bad habit of looking impossibly strong and ridiculously weak, such as Boo saga Goku struggling to lift 40 tons in base form...

At this point it's really not worth overthinking, because even when Toriyama is in control of power levels, while it's more consistent it's still nonsense if you think about it.

The Anime ended with the idea that MUI Goku as seen in the ToP was a form that left Beerus and the other Destroyers in complete awe. There is no actual rematch between Goku and Beerus, but you are left with the idea that Goku could have finally closed the gap with Beerus. This is a good conclusion for the Super series.

Then comes the Manga-only arcs and surprise! MUI Goku is actually not really Mastered UI at all, and he's still worthless fodder compared to Beerus. Gohan never trained with the Gods a single day of his life but he stopped studying insects for a day and now he's probably the strongest in the universe.

It was never really called "Mastered Ultra Instinct", just "Ultra Instinct", the fan nickname likely comes from I think an episode called "Mastering Ultra Instinct", or at least I think there was one... The manga version even has this moment where Whis explicitly says Goku didn't master it in ToP.

Though yeah, UI was talked like it could match the gods, with Jiren even being heavily implied at least to be stronger than Belmond, but I'm not sure if the manga did it... Even if it did it'd be yet another case of Beerus being quietly buffed so Goku doesn't match him, something that's been going on since RoF lol.

Even the major antagonists in 2016/17/18 made more sense in terms of power-scaling. Hit was an assassin who relied on hax over power, Zamasu a cheater who relied on stolen body (that he couldn't fully control) and Immortality, and Jiren sacrificed pretty much his entire social life to get to that level of power.

Meanwhile, villains of the Manga-only arc just wish to be the strongest and *poof* they are the strongest and able to shit-stomp Goku and friends.

At least Moro had to steal powers to get to that level, even then Moro started ridiculously strong since he could match SSG Vegeta, like come on... But yeah, Granola/Gas just making a wish are just ridiculous, which, funnily enough, Toriyama himself pulled the same bullshit in Super Hero.

From what I've seen Vegeta seems to suggest that what Moro/Granola/Gas were doing was simply they were better fighters than Goku and Vegeta, but that seems more like an awkward attempt at lining up wht Vegeta says with his line from Super Hero when talking about Jiren, which, even that has issues with what's shown in both versions of ToP.

Seriously, how many versions of Ultra Instinct do we have in the Manga? UI omen, Mastered Ultra Instinct, "True" UI (whatever that is), all of which are apparently still fodder to Beerus Hilarious power creep.

There's third one now? Lol.