Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kazuya Mishima]

May I ask what exactly are you basing this on? Gohan was pretty much implied to be on par with Goku. The only thing that was said is that he could be stronger than Goku if he quits his job and devotes to training, since he managed to get that strong in such a short time.

Which of course means he's not stronger.

If Gohan quit his job and devoted his life to training he could be stronger than him.

But that's not the case. By that point he hadn't quit his job and barely devoted his life to training so he's not as strong as Goku.

Even currently he still hasn't quit his job or devoted his life to training. So still wouldn't be stronger than Goku back then. He trained for a couple months for Moro and then likely didn't much bother in the years following so probably just regressed again to the way he was before.

[Hugo Boss]

It seems you just decided in your head that Gohan wasn’t equal to Goku in the Tournament of Power and you are trying to find reasons to validate this opinion. Krillin’s line is not evidence that Gohan didn’t caught up to Goku in that specific moment. It’s just a pretty obvious reference to Gohan’s character: “can be the strongest if he puts his mind into it”.

Assuming Gohan was weaker than Goku suggests that Kefla was weaker than Kale or that Kale was weaker than Golden Freeza or that Golden Freeza was weaker than Super Saiyan Blue. That’s quite a stretch. Even when Vegeta analyzed Kale, he never said that her power wasn’t impressive when compared to a Super Saiyan Blue, he just pointed where the other heavy hitters were superior to her. Kefla basically circumvented that weakness and was even said to be the ultimate fighter in the battlefield. Jiren was at that moment the only fighter that wasn’t in awe with her presence.

[QuakingStar]

It seems you just decided in your head that Gohan wasn’t equal to Goku in the Tournament of Power and you are trying to find reasons to validate this opinion. Krillin’s line is not evidence that Gohan didn’t caught up to Goku in that specific moment. It’s just a pretty obvious reference to Gohan’s character: “can be the strongest if he puts his mind into it”.

Assuming Gohan was weaker than Goku suggests that Kefla was weaker than Kale or that Kale was weaker than Golden Freeza or that Golden Freeza was weaker than Super Saiyan Blue. That’s quite a stretch. Even when Vegeta analyzed Kale, he never said that her power wasn’t impressive when compared to a Super Saiyan Blue, he just pointed where the other heavy hitters were superior to her. Kefla basically circumvented that weakness and was even said to be the ultimate fighter in the battlefield. Jiren was at that moment the only fighter that wasn’t in awe with her presence.

Yeah, his headcanon is that Gohan wasn't Super Saiyan Blue level in ToP or SH apparently and being his headcanon that's fine. But the reality of the situation is obviously different.

[ZombieVito]

It seems you just decided in your head that Gohan wasn’t equal to Goku in the Tournament of Power and you are trying to find reasons to validate this opinion. Krillin’s line is not evidence that Gohan didn’t caught up to Goku in that specific moment. It’s just a pretty obvious reference to Gohan’s character: “can be the strongest if he puts his mind into it”.

Assuming Gohan was weaker than Goku suggests that Kefla was weaker than Kale or that Kale was weaker than Golden Freeza or that Golden Freeza was weaker than Super Saiyan Blue. That’s quite a stretch. Even when Vegeta analyzed Kale, he never said that her power wasn’t impressive when compared to a Super Saiyan Blue, he just pointed where the other heavy hitters were superior to her. Kefla basically circumvented that weakness and was even said to be the ultimate fighter in the battlefield. Jiren was at that moment the only fighter that wasn’t in awe with her presence.

Yeah, his headcanon is that Gohan wasn't Super Saiyan Blue level in ToP or SH apparently and being his headcanon that's fine. But the reality of the situation is obviously different.

Some people just believe that if you are not exactly equal with SSB Goku then you are not SSB level and I find that really strange. A lot of people on Twitter and Reddit seem to think this.

[QuakingStar]

I've noticed that as well. They also keep forgetting that Power Creeping exists. Ultimate Gohan in SH is likely stronger than he ever was previously.

[Koitsukai]

SSB level is constantly changing, current SSB is worlds apart from RoF SSB. So in that regard, you can get away with even calling Black Rose not SSB level if you want to compare it to Granny arc SSB Goku.

But Gohan stalemated Kefla, who was said to have Kale's raw power (power that pressured on Golden Freeza, SSB Goku, and almost rings out SSB Vegeta and Toppo) and Caulifla's experience, making her more efficient than Kale ever was. Vados even says there might be no rival for her up to that point.
After all of this, I'm not buying she is still not SSB level. It's Olympic medal level of mental gymnastics what you need to end up with a non-SSB level ToP Gohan.

In SH, they had a character say the Gammas are similar in power to Goku and Vegeta. Then they had Gohan fighting on par with them, I don't think them implying Gohan is currently SSB level could've been any clearer.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, I do wonder how Toriyama views SSB.

Golden Freeza getting stronger in both mediums with SSB having caught up in the interim is present, but I'm not sure if that's Toriyama or simply Toei and Toyotaro collaborating on that one.

As well, he doesn't seem to factor in any particular gains beyond catching up to Golden Freeza, as he otherwise treats it the same across the various story arcs.

[Kazuya Mishima]

It seems you just decided in your head that Gohan wasn’t equal to Goku in the Tournament of Power and you are trying to find reasons to validate this opinion.

I don't need to decide that, it was outright said. Krillin said that "Makes you wonder if he could get stronger than Goku if he quit his day job and devoted himself to training".

Therefore he was weaker than Goku.

Assuming Gohan was weaker than Goku suggests that Kefla was weaker than Kale or that Kale was weaker than Golden Freeza or that Golden Freeza was weaker than Super Saiyan Blue.

There is no assumption that Gohan was weaker than Goku. He was weaker than Goku. And no it doesn't.

Gohan was as strong as Kefla. Both were weaker than Goku and Frieza.

[Kazuya Mishima]

I've noticed that as well. They also keep forgetting that Power Creeping exists. Ultimate Gohan in SH is likely stronger than he ever was previously.

That's another assumption. Why is he likely stronger than ever?

He stopped training and grew weaker post Cell. He stopped training and grew weaker post Buu. Yet he can stop training this time around and be stronger than ever?

In SH, they had a character say the Gammas are similar in power to Goku and Vegeta. Then they had Gohan fighting on par with them, I don't think them implying Gohan is currently SSB level could've been any clearer.

So if they're similar in power to Goku and Vegeta then why are you specifically pointing out Super Saiyan Blue, some particular in-between form that they have? Why aren't they as strong as Ultra Instinct? Or Super Saiyan Blue Evolved or Kaioken? Why isn't Gohan that level?

Toriyama said Orange Piccolo was on par with Goku as well so why isn't Gamma 2 as strong as Orange Piccolo?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What sells it for me is how the manga adapts the movie 1:1 without even bothering to patch up potential inconsistencies, so I imagine the Gammas are meant to be SSJB levels just because that’s how it is in the movie. I’m not sure whether that's Broly Saga SSJB like the movie (which is more realistic for Gohan) or current SSJB.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

What sells it for me is how the manga adapts the movie 1:1 without even bothering to patch up potential inconsistencies, so I imagine the Gammas are meant to be SSJB levels just because that’s how it is in the movie. I’m not sure whether that's Broly Saga SSJB like the movie (which is more realistic for Gohan) or current SSJB.

I imagine that there's no difference in Toriyama's mind, it's all just SSB which is still around the same level after the RoF story arc.

So SSB from the Universe 6/7, Future Trunks, Universal Survival, Broly, and Super Hero story arcs is just generally the same level, a bit stronger than RoF at most.

As late as the Future Trunks arc and the Broly movie, he considers SSB the peak of what Goku and Vegeta can normally achieve on their own and a high bar on its own.

[Koitsukai]

In SH, they had a character say the Gammas are similar in power to Goku and Vegeta. Then they had Gohan fighting on par with them, I don't think them implying Gohan is currently SSB level could've been any clearer.

So if they're similar in power to Goku and Vegeta then why are you specifically pointing out Super Saiyan Blue, some particular in-between form that they have? Why aren't they as strong as Ultra Instinct? Or Super Saiyan Blue Evolved or Kaioken?

Well, aside of those forms not being part of the movie continuity yet, because if the higher forms were in fact taken into account, it would make more sense to think Gohan and Piccolo can power up to become only SSB level contenders(the default DBS form), instead of the strongest available form in the series. How cheap and unearned would that had been?

So, Occam's razor. If the Gammas were UI level, then Beast Gohan should use Whis as a lampshade.

Why isn't Gohan that level?

He is, that's why Piccolo wants to recruit him and laments the nerd he ends up with. That's why once Gohan unlocks Ultimate, he is at that level and can deal with the Gammas.

Toriyama said Orange Piccolo was on par with Goku as well so why isn't Gamma 2 as strong as Orange Piccolo?

Unlike the "equal to Goku" comment that is actually a dialogue in-universe to let the audience know where the Gammas stand, this was Toriyama, in an out-of-universe fashion, comparing Piccolo's new form to Goku's highest form, in a very vague way.
This is pretty self explanatory, Gammas and Ultimate folks = SSB; Orange, Beast, Cell Max = Ultra forms. We are free to rank them as we please within those tiers.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Well, aside of those forms not being part of the movie continuity yet, because if the higher forms were in fact taken into account, it would make more sense to think Gohan and Piccolo can power up to become only SSB level contenders(the default DBS form), instead of the strongest available form in the series.

The movie continuity follows the series. The Tournament of Power happened. Ultra Instinct happened. Toriyama designed it, he's not forgot about it.

The Moro arc showed that Ultimate Gohan was not close to being as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku. That was the most current and accurate comparison that can be made.

Unlike the "equal to Goku" comment that is actually a dialogue in-universe to let the audience know where the Gammas stand, this was Toriyama, in an out-of-universe fashion, comparing Piccolo's new form to Goku's highest form, in a very vague way.
This is pretty self explanatory, Gammas and Ultimate folks = SSB; Orange, Beast, Cell Max = Ultra forms. We are free to rank them as we please within those tiers.

They were said to be on par with Goku and Vegeta. To what extent or in which form is unclear. People are assuming he was referring to Super Saiyan Blue but that's all that is.

Toriyama merely said Orange Piccolo was on par with Goku and co. What form of Goku? Who is the Co? If he were talking about Ultra Instinct Goku then there would be no Co. Why would Toriyama be referring to Ultra Instinct in some interview but the same guy writes the Super Hero movie and doesn't refer to it there?

If he were referring to Super Saiyan Blue then the Gamma's should be on par with that, not Orange Piccolo.

The only thing we know for sure is that in the Moro arc Ultimate Gohan was far below Super Saiyan Blue Goku. The former of which then stopped training and the latter kept training can combine Ultra Instinct with the form.

Gohan isn't nearly as strong as Goku as a Super Saiyan Blue.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't need to decide that, it was outright said. Krillin said that "Makes you wonder if he could get stronger than Goku if he quit his day job and devoted himself to training".

Therefore he was weaker than Goku.

You can’t automatically assume he is saying Gohan was weaker than Goku. He only said Gohan wasn’t stronger. Weaker is just one of the possibilities, equal is the other, and given Goku’s own reaction, the most likely one.

Gohan was as strong as Kefla. Both were weaker than Goku and Frieza.

Again, based on what? You are not presenting anything other than your own interpretation of Krillin’s line to justify this opinion.

Toriyama merely said Orange Piccolo was on par with Goku and co. What form of Goku? Who is the Co? If he were talking about Ultra Instinct Goku then there would be no Co. Why would Toriyama be referring to Ultra Instinct in some interview but the same guy writes the Super Hero movie and doesn't refer to it there? If he were referring to Super Saiyan Blue then the Gamma's should be on par with that, not Orange Piccolo.

The comparison Piccolo makes comes from a script that was written long before Goku and Vegeta's current power-ups in the manga. However, the comparison Toriyama makes outside the context of the film comes from a Toriyama that actively worked on the Granolah arc. Likely, he had Ultra Ego, at-will Ultra Instinct, etc in mind when he talked about Orange Piccolo.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I’ve seen people suggest that Kuririn’s line about Gohan was more of a “He could surpass Goku forever if he kept training” instead of “He could surpass Goku as he is right now”.

Though Kefla complains about her lack of ability to defeat a single Saiyan, and Goku is quickly back to being #1 by the start of the next saga. Gohan is the strongest once Goku leaves.

Interestingly, 17 wasn’t far from Goku but was behind Gohan, meaning Gohan can’t be behind far behind Goku either.

[Koitsukai]

Well, aside of those forms not being part of the movie continuity yet, because if the higher forms were in fact taken into account, it would make more sense to think Gohan and Piccolo can power up to become only SSB level contenders(the default DBS form), instead of the strongest available form in the series.

The movie continuity follows the series. The Tournament of Power happened. Ultra Instinct happened. Toriyama designed it, he's not forgot about it.

The Moro arc showed that Ultimate Gohan was not close to being as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku. That was the most current and accurate comparison that can be made.

The movie follows the movies, there’s no anime-only forms and there’s a SSB aura unlike in the manga. Gammas=Goku and Vegeta. Later on, Ultimate Gohan = Gamma. So either Ultimate Gohan is suddenly on par with UI, or the Moro arc was not taken into account(in fact, Moro himself was blatantly left out when mentioning former foes, even in promotional material) and Ultimate Gohan = SSB Goku.
You tell me which one you think is most likely to be the case. Since you just said SSB Goku is much stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the manga, I'd assume in no way you'd think Ultimate Gohan is now UI level.

They were said to be on par with Goku and Vegeta. To what extent or in which form is unclear. People are assuming he was referring to Super Saiyan Blue but that's all that is.

And which form do those two have in common? SSB. The other anime/manga forms aren't present in the movie continuity, as seen in DBS Broly.

Toriyama merely said Orange Piccolo was on par with Goku and co. What form of Goku? Who is the Co? If he were talking about Ultra Instinct Goku then there would be no Co.

Goku and co means Vegeta who has UE. It could also mean Granola and Broly, who are just as strong. It's not that hard to connect the dots, specially when it's an interview, and he's being as vague as possible.

Why would Toriyama be referring to Ultra Instinct in some interview but the same guy writes the Super Hero movie and doesn't refer to it there?

Because the fandom knows UI is a thing, THE thing actually, while the movie continuity is going out of its way to leave UI out, probably because there are bigger plans for that form. Also, the movie wasn't about Goku, so why would UI come up?

If he were referring to Super Saiyan Blue then the Gamma's should be on par with that, not Orange Piccolo.

They were on par with the Ultimate forms, as seen in the movie, and that form is closer to SSB than to UI. Orange Piccolo is on another level from the Gammas as seen in the movie and mentioned in an interview.

The only thing we know for sure is that in the Moro arc Ultimate Gohan was far below Super Saiyan Blue Goku. The former of which then stopped training and the latter kept training can combine Ultra Instinct with the form.

Gohan isn't nearly as strong as Goku as a Super Saiyan Blue.

And SSB Goku wasn't nearly as strong as Black Rose, yet they were both SSB level.

[Kazuya Mishima]

The movie follows the movies, there’s no anime-only forms and there’s a SSB aura unlike in the manga.

They showed and mentioned Jiren, in both movies. Mentioned the Tournament of Power. Ultra Instinct was shown. It follows the series.

You tell me which one you think is most likely to be the case. Since you just said SSB Goku is much stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the manga, I'd assume in no way you'd think Ultimate Gohan is now UI level.

They didn't say the Gamma's were equal to Goku, merely on par. The same as was said with Orange Piccolo. So it doesn't need to be either of those things.

As far as the manga has shown Gohan isn't as strong as Super Saiyan Blue or Ultra Instinct Goku. So if the comment was still true then he's just within Goku's general level.

And which form do those two have in common? SSB. The other anime/manga forms aren't present in the movie continuity, as seen in DBS Broly.

They also have Super Saiyan in common. Outside of the same forms Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken and Evolution were shown to be equals as well.

Because the fandom knows UI is a thing, THE thing actually, while the movie continuity is going out of its way to leave UI out, probably because there are bigger plans for that form. Also, the movie wasn't about Goku, so why would UI come up?

Piccolo also knows Ultra Instinct is a thing. Toei and Toriyama knew Ultra Instinct was a thing long before Super Hero came out. Just because they might have some kind of plan for it, though almost surely they don't seeing as how it's been used multiple times in the manga and Heroes, it makes no difference, it's still a thing.

The movie wasn't about Goku and Super Saiyan Blue wasn't in it so it doesn't have to be about that either.

And SSB Goku wasn't nearly as strong as Black Rose, yet they were both SSB level.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku defeated Rose Goku Black at one point. Goku Black in turn defeated Blue Goku before that.

Ultimate Gohan along with three others were entirely manhandled by Saganbo, a much weaker Saganbo than the one Goku kicked around. Ultimate Gohan has never defeated anyone that Super Saiyan Blue Goku couldn't have.

[Koitsukai]

The movie follows the movies, there’s no anime-only forms and there’s a SSB aura unlike in the manga.

They showed and mentioned Jiren, in both movies. Mentioned the Tournament of Power. Ultra Instinct was shown. It follows the series.

Cool, then whatever manga development puts SSB Goku way above Ultimate Gohan is disregarded. Thanks. I hope to not see the Moro arc mentioned ever again in this discussion, because as the promotional info pointed out, Goku only fought Jiren and Broly prior to this movie.
When was UI shown in the movie, though? I honestly cannot remember that.

You tell me which one you think is most likely to be the case. Since you just said SSB Goku is much stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the manga, I'd assume in no way you'd think Ultimate Gohan is now UI level.

They didn't say the Gamma's were equal to Goku, merely on par. The same as was said with Orange Piccolo. So it doesn't need to be either of those things.

As far as the manga has shown Gohan isn't as strong as Super Saiyan Blue or Ultra Instinct Goku. So if the comment was still true then he's just within Goku's general level.

Tomate, tomato, in practice it has the same effect:

on (a) par with
idiom
: at the same level or standard as (someone or something else)

Also, if the movie follows the series, there's no room for manga developments here.

They also have Super Saiyan in common. Outside of the same forms Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken and Evolution were shown to be equals as well.

Should've specified, didn't think it was actually needed. What's the strongest form they both share? is SS their strongest form or is it SSB? If they were SS level, why use SS Goku as reference? there's plenty of more apt examples to lump them on that tier.
Those forms aren't part of the movie continuity, otherwise they would've been shown in the Broly movie. But ok, let's give you this one: they are SSBKK/SSBE tier. Then Ultimate Gohan is 20x stronger than regular SSB. Unless you are saying the Gammas are SS Goku level, and Ultimate Gohan is as strong as SS Goku.

Piccolo also knows Ultra Instinct is a thing. Toei and Toriyama knew Ultra Instinct was a thing long before Super Hero came out. Just because they might have some kind of plan for it, though almost surely they don't seeing as how it's been used multiple times in the manga and Heroes, it makes no difference, it's still a thing.

The movie wasn't about Goku and Super Saiyan Blue wasn't in it so it doesn't have to be about that either.

And since we know Ultimate Gohan cannot be UI level, then Piccolo can't be referencing UI, now can he?
SSB is the default DBS form, if somebody is on par with Goku, but not quite his strongest form(as seen when the Gammas cannot even beat Ultimate Gohan whom you have weaker than SSB), you have to be SS Obtuse to think it's not SSB.
Also, without the Moro arc, there's no unlocked UI form for Goku just yet. And this is not an assumption, the promotional material clearly listed "Freeza, Jiren, Broly" as his previous foes.
And if he was talking about the Gammas being UI level, then there's no way they can deal with them without Goku and Vegeta. This is Logic 101.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku defeated Rose Goku Black at one point. Goku Black in turn defeated Blue Goku before that.

Ultimate Gohan along with three others were entirely manhandled by Saganbo, a much weaker Saganbo than the one Goku kicked around. Ultimate Gohan has never defeated anyone that Super Saiyan Blue Goku couldn't have.

And Black destroyed Goku after he was "defeated". Did Goku stop being SSB level after that beating? Was SSRose Black beyond SSB level even though later on SSB Vegeta kicked his ass?

[Kazuya Mishima]

Cool, then whatever manga development puts SSB Goku way above Ultimate Gohan is disregarded.

The movies follow the manga just the same. Dragon Ball Super Broly does not follow Dragon Ball Z Resurrection F, it follows the Tournament of Power arc in Dragon Ball Super, either version.

When was UI shown in the movie, though? I honestly cannot remember that.

When Goku was turning Blue it briefly appeared.

Those forms aren't part of the movie continuity, otherwise they would've been shown in the Broly movie.

They are part of the movie continuity. Broly directly follows the Tournament of Power arc, which was referred to, and both versions featured those forms. Why didn't they use them? Why didn't Goku use Ultra Instinct Sign? That's an entirely separate matter.

And since we know Ultimate Gohan cannot be UI level, then Piccolo can't be referencing UI, now can he?

We don't know anything. The writing is poor. Why would he not refer to Ultra Instinct if he knows it's a thing?

The comment doesn't have to pertain to some specific form that Goku uses. Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Ultra Instinct. He's just on par with Goku and Vegeta in general. Just like Orange Piccolo who is far stronger than Gamma 2 is still on par with Goku and Vegeta.

It is s specific thing, it does not mean Ultimate Gohan and Gammas are as strong as Super Saiyan Blue because the manga showed clearly that Ultimate Gohan isn't close to being that strong in the Moro arc and he stopped training since.

And Black destroyed Goku after he was "defeated". Did Goku stop being SSB level after that beating? Was SSRose Black beyond SSB level even though later on SSB Vegeta kicked his ass?

Goku let his guard down and was stabbed through. Forgetting that though, yes he was clearly beyond Blue level until Vegeta trained at which point he wasn't Blue level anymore.

This is like taking Goku as a Super Saiyan on Namek and taking current Super Saiyan Goku and saying everyone in-between is Super Saiyan Goku level from Android 20 to Super Saiyan Caulifla.

[picc]

I guess I can see ToP Gohan being blue level as blue level is indeed a very wide ranging area. In the same way "SSJ" level in Z could technically be Goku on Namek, or Goku vs Cell, even though the two power levels are WILDLY different.

So yeah, Gohan being equal to Kefla I guess made him blue level. And so he's blue level now. But it just seems like a weird designation when we have actual ssjb fighters who are so far superior to him in the current timeline.

I suppose its just matter of perspective though. Oh well.

Personally, with all the "on par" with Goku and Vegeta and Orange Piccolo being "on the same level", I'm still not entirely sure what AT means since he doesn't seem to do nearly the level of analysis we do here -- which could go either way for scaling Gohan and Piccolo to the current meta.

I'm not going to pretend to know exactly how strong they are until we see them and Goku/Vegeta in the same story, with a direct comparison. Which likely won't be for a while, but who knows.