Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

"Oh but the line was written back in 20XX and those arcs hadn't been written and context this and context that etc".

None of that matters. Forget the movies ever existed.

You are largely missing the point here.

Super Hero is placed after Moro and Granolah arcs, but they run in parallel. Super Hero is written as a sequel to Broly film, so they run in different directions. That’s why you don’t take into account what happens after Broly in the manga.

The Super Hero arc in the manga is basically a retell of what happens in the film, without concerning about the inconsistencies. For example, Goku and Vegeta regressed to a point where they don’t know how to use their power efficiently. They got past that during their fight against Zamasu and Beerus, respectively.

[QuakingStar]

This means the Gammas are still comparable to Goku and Vegeta, but you have to use logic to understand that if Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku according to Toriyama himself this would mean at their full powers in that case otherwise that statement doesn't make sense for Orange Piccolo.

With the two Gammas being weaker than Orange Piccolo, and weaker by a small bit than Ultimate Gohan there is no way that the Gammas are on the level of UI or UE and the Orange Piccolo statement is the reason we can come to that.

Ultimate Gohan and the Gammas are very likely Blue level in SH, they surely wouldn't be referring to the lowest forms of power for Goku and Vegeta when in DBS SSBlue is the new standard form for them, and UI and UE are their new ultimate forms.

And this is exactly what I mean when I say people are just picking and choosing what they think is best for their own personal head canon. This is just assumption and nothing more.

Toriyama wrote the script for Super Hero. He clearly wrote Piccolo as saying that the Gamma's were on par with Goku. The man himself said Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku.

There is no "Well he must mean in this particular instance he's talking about form X but here he must be talking about form Y instead". That's nothing but a convenient excuse.

Either the Gamma's are on par with Goku and Toriyama's comment on Orange Piccolo is wrong. Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku and Piccolo's comment is wrong.

Or rather simply it's just a general comment. Not something to be taken so literally, not to mean they must be equal to this one specific form somewhere in the middle of all the others, just that they are in general on the level of Goku.

No, these comments are added by the author to show you how strong they are in comparison to the one or ones mentioned.

Obviously Orange Piccolo is stronger than the Gammas but supposed to be on par with Goku while the Gammas are supposed to be on par with Goku and Vegeta.

Toriyama won't hold hands and spell it out, he never does.

The standard form for Goku and Vegeta in DBS is SSB now, their Ultimate forms are UI and UE.

If the Gammas were below SSBlue in power they they are not a threat because Ultimate Gohan was above SSG level opponents since the ToP and Ultimate Piccolo is pretty close to him and the Gammas placing him above SSG level threats as well.

Also, "rival" does not mean the same exact power and never has while on "par" means the same exact power.. the gammas were never said to be on par with Goku and Vegeta, I never saw that word used for them while it was used for Orange Piccolo.

Ultimate Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo and the Gammas were still likely a bit weaker than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta but they were close enough to rival with them, while Orange Piccolo was said to be on par with Goku.

Again, the SH Arc is 2.5 to 3 years later, power creep exists, and you don't know how recently Gohan stopoped training. He could have stopped only a year before hand, or even only 7 months beforehand since Goten and Trunks had their little saga 6 months beforehand. That would have left Gohan with almost 2 years of training before he stopped and Piccolo also never stopped training.

[Hugo Boss]

Also, "rival" does not mean the same exact power and never has while on "par" means the same exact power.. the gammas were never said to be on par with Goku and Vegeta, I never saw that word used for them while it was used for Orange Piccolo.

The Gammas were said to be “about on par” in the manga (Based on my own battle, I’d say those Gammas are about on par with Goku and Vegeta themselves) while in the film it has a slightly different comment (My sense from having fought one of the Gammas is that their power rivals those Saiyans’ (Goku and Vegeta)).

Rivalry is typically used to be describe non-completely one sided matches, though sometimes one has a clear advantage over the other. That happens, for example, in Android arc, where Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo were said to be rivals, despite Goku and Vegeta having similar strength and Piccolo’s being notably below theirs.

In this case, I think the Gammas having similar strength to Goku and Vegeta is the most favored interpretation to Toyotaro, considering the manga is more explicit about it. For Toriyama, it might be not too different, since he says Orange Piccolo has battle power on par with Goku’s but not necessarily Vegeta’s. This is possibly an indication that Toriyama sees Orange Piccolo about as strong as a much stronger version of Goku, since he was walling Gamma #2 after transforming. Goku is currently stronger than Vegeta, judging by their fight against Gas, which might explain the absence of Vegeta in that assessment. They were only equals when the film was scripted.

Again, the SH Arc is 2.5 to 3 years later, power creep exists, and you don't know how recently Gohan stopoped training. He could have stopped only a year before hand, or even only 7 months beforehand since Goten and Trunks had their little saga 6 months beforehand. That would have left Gohan with almost 2 years of training before he stopped and Piccolo also never stopped training.

Super Hero was scripted with the idea that Gohan was out of shape for quite a long time, but he admitted he was secretly practicing makankosappo. Maybe this contributed to his battle power not being diminished despite him forgetting some basics.

[QuakingStar]

Also, "rival" does not mean the same exact power and never has while on "par" means the same exact power.. the gammas were never said to be on par with Goku and Vegeta, I never saw that word used for them while it was used for Orange Piccolo.

The Gammas were said to be “about on par” in the manga (Based on my own battle, I’d say those Gammas are about on par with Goku and Vegeta themselves) while in the film it has a slightly different comment (My sense from having fought one of the Gammas is that their power rivals those Saiyans’ (Goku and Vegeta)).

Rivalry is typically used to be describe non-completely one sided matches, though sometimes one has a clear advantage over the other. That happens, for example, in Android arc, where Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo were said to be rivals, despite Goku and Vegeta having similar strength and Piccolo’s being notably below theirs.

In this case, I think the Gammas having similar strength to Goku and Vegeta is the most favored interpretation to Toyotaro, considering the manga is more explicit about it. For Toriyama, it might be not too different, since he says Orange Piccolo has battle power on par with Goku’s but not necessarily Vegeta’s. This is possibly an indication that Toriyama sees Orange Piccolo about as strong as a much stronger version of Goku, since he was walling Gamma #2 after transforming. Goku is currently stronger than Vegeta, judging by their fight against Gas, which might explain the absence of Vegeta in that assessment. They were only equals when the film was scripted.

Again, the SH Arc is 2.5 to 3 years later, power creep exists, and you don't know how recently Gohan stopoped training. He could have stopped only a year before hand, or even only 7 months beforehand since Goten and Trunks had their little saga 6 months beforehand. That would have left Gohan with almost 2 years of training before he stopped and Piccolo also never stopped training.

Super Hero was scripted with the idea that Gohan was out of shape for quite a long time, but he admitted he was secretly practicing makankosappo. Maybe this contributed to his battle power not being diminished despite him forgetting some basics.

You said it was scripted with Gohan was out of shape for quite a bit of time, but I don't recall that every being revealed anywhere. Do you have a source for it you can link?

[Kazuya Mishima]

You are largely missing the point here.

No. You've just said it. I already said that. I know Super Hero was set after and wrote before.

I don't care. I'm going by the manga now. If it's inconsistent then its also wrong. Then the line means nothing and the Gamma's and therefore Ultimate Gohan are not Super Saiyan Blue level as I said.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Obviously Orange Piccolo is stronger than the Gammas but supposed to be on par with Goku while the Gammas are supposed to be on par with Goku and Vegeta.

Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku and Co. So who is the Co? The only one on par with Goku in the manga is Vegeta at which point he could have just said Goku and Vegeta.

No it's just a general comment, it doesn't mean anything specific or that he's on par with X form or Y form. All it means is he's up there with them and not some chump like the Earthlings.

If the Gammas were below SSBlue in power they they are not a threat because Ultimate Gohan was above SSG level opponents since the ToP and Ultimate Piccolo is pretty close to him and the Gammas placing him above SSG level threats as well.[/quote]

How do you know Ultimate Gohan was above Super Saiyan God? Nothing said that. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. It's an assumption all the same just because he tied with Kefla.

Why can't the Gamma's be a threat if they're below God level? Goku and Vegeta weren't around so they were a threat.

Again, the SH Arc is 2.5 to 3 years later, power creep exists, and you don't know how recently Gohan stopoped training.

What's this power creep meant to mean? We literally have two examples of this happening.

After Cell, Gohan stopped training, he grew weaker because of it despite being a bigger adolescent.

He stopped training again after Buu and by the time Golden Frieza arrived he had grown weaker a second time and could barely even turn into a Super Saiyan nevermind anything more.

After Moro he would then have seemingly have stopped training again due to finding the possibility of another bad guy showing up being farfetched. Seeing as that's a manga thing though then you take that out of the equation and a bad guy hadn't showed up since Golden Frieza. Again he couldn't freely turn into Ultimate Gohan despite being able to do so just fine before.

So surely if anything he would be stronger in the Moro arc after training hard for 2 months as opposed to currently where he stopped training for possibly years for all we know.

Meanwhile Super Saiyan Blue Goku who was already far ahead of during that Moro arc would have continued to train for years with Vegeta and Whis and can combine Ultra Instinct with the form.

At best Ultimate Gohan is Super Saiyan Blue level back in 2018.

[QuakingStar]

No, you are assuming Gohan stopped training for years and thats why you came to your conclusion. You just don't WANT UIltimate Gohan and the Gammas to be Super Saiyan Blue level in current times and that's where there is a hiccup, because nobody else agrees with you on that. Back to the ToP, Kale was presuring both Perfected Blue Goku and Goldren Frieza who as Goku said in an earlier chapter had somehow gotten much stronger. Gohan in the ToP had went on to tie SS Kefla who would shit on that very same Kale.

Back to current Gohan, your assumption is based off of the assumption that Gohan had stopped training for a LONGGG time and that is not backed up by anything. He could have stopped training a month before the Arc with Goten and Trunks as teenagers because we already know he was doing some training before the Moro Arc and during the Moro Arc so why with his newfound inclinations to train more would he stop training immediately after Moro is defeated?? and since we are using the manga only going by what you claim then Gohan in the manga is able to still get much stronger with rage, and still is able to literally GROW in power in real time while he is in his Ultimate State and it took far less than 48 minutes for him to go from weaker than Buutenks, to tied with SS Kefla. Why would that all of a sudden not be a thing for current Gohan? Against Moro the gap was too large for him to catch up at that rate and with Rage it still didn't help... but this leads me back again to ask where was it stated or implied he stopped training immediately after the Moro Arc was over? Like I said you have NO IDEA when Gohan stopped or how strong he got before he stopped. Power Creep rarely comes with a sound explanation "Oh 17 protected endagered animals on an island from poachers, now he rivals SSB lever characters" that is part of power creep. Gohans power creep is the same as it always is, that he doesn't NEED to do extreme training to catch up to or surpass those around him. In the manga it took him far less than 48 minutes, in the anime it took him less than 24 hours. SSG level enemies are not a threat anymore, and there is nothing backing that.

[DragonBallFanatic]

Gammas being stated to be as strong as SSB Goku is right. He’s just equal to the last time Piccolo saw Goku. And Orange Piccolo is equal to current SSB Goku. So SSB Goku in the new movie > SSB Goku that Piccolo last saw (Broly Movie in the anime, Moro arc in the manga).

[QuakingStar]

Gammas being stated to be as strong as SSB Goku is right. He’s just equal to the last time Piccolo saw Goku. And Orange Piccolo is equal to current SSB Goku. So SSB Goku in the new movie > SSB Goku that Piccolo last saw (Broly Movie in the anime, Moro arc in the manga).

Nope. Goku and Vegeta were on earth just 3 weeks prior. Orange Piccolo is stated by Toriyama to be on par with Goku and Co, the only one in that group who was close to Goku to be considered the Co. is Vegeta. Toriyama doesn't give a shit whether its for the movie or the manga, when he said Orange Piccolo was on par with them he wasn't referring to a lower form. Logic dictates he is referring to UI Goku aka his full power. The Gammas being clearly weaker than Orange Piccolo would make them not UI level obviously. The next level that is considered after that is Blue which is the new standard form for Goku and Vegeta while UI and UE are their full powers and their ultimate forms. Again, SSG level is not a threat anymore and the Gammas are clearly not Orange Piccolo's level. Therefor they are current SSB level and Ultimate Gohan is a tad stronger that that in SH.

[DragonBallFanatic]

Goku and Vegeta were on earth just 3 weeks prior.

When? When is this ever stated? Show me.

Toriyama doesn't give a shit whether its for the movie or the manga

Toriyama said it literally in reference for the movie… the manga wasn’t even done with the Granolah arc yet and promo was just coming out for the movie. Nothing indicates this for the manga except bias.

when he said Orange Piccolo was on par with them he wasn't referring to a lower form. Logic dictates he is referring to UI Goku aka his full power.

We don’t know if Goku can activate UI at will within the anime continuation, meaning it’s simply Blue power.

[Mr Baggins]

I have 0 interest in participating in this back-and-forth, but just to set the record straight about the date of Toriyama's statement RE: Orange Piccolo being on par with "Goku and co.":

That comment was specifically posted on the 28th of June in 2022 when the Granolah arc was just two chapters away from its conclusion, around a week after Super chapter 85 was published, and exactly 17 days after Super Hero's theatrical release date.

Just saiyan.

[DragonBallFanatic]

Well it didn’t release worldwide, and so statements posted after the release can still be for promotion or factual information. For both Japanese and every other nation.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Going entirely by the movie, I wonder if it could be that the Gammas are ~ SSJB Goku (ToP/Broly) and Orange Piccolo = SSJB Goku (Current). It's the easiest explanation, but it seems like Toriyama doesn't imagine Goku and Vegeta improving much throughout Super, outside of new transformations.

We don’t know if Goku can activate UI at will within the anime continuation, meaning it’s simply Blue power.

Does Toriyama even care about the anime? I think the DB Room director called the movie a anime continuation, but I'm not sure if Toriyama makes such delineations.

In the anime, Gammas being SSJB level and Orange Piccolo being KK/SSJBE level would make a lot of sense though.

[DragonBallFanatic]

Going entirely by the movie, I wonder if it could be that the Gammas are ~ SSJB Goku (ToP/Broly) and Orange Piccolo = SSJB Goku (Current). It's the easiest explanation, but it seems like Toriyama doesn't imagine Goku and Vegeta improving much throughout Super, outside of new transformations.

We don’t know if Goku can activate UI at will within the anime continuation, meaning it’s simply Blue power.

Does Toriyama even care about the anime? I think the DB Room director called the movie a anime continuation, but I'm not sure if Toriyama makes such delineations.

In the anime, Gammas being SSJB level and Orange Piccolo being KK/SSJBE level would make a lot of sense though.

Piccolo is just as strong as Goku now and the Gammas were as strong as when Piccolo saw them last. It’s pretty simple.

[QuakingStar]

Goku and Vegeta were on earth just 3 weeks prior.

When? When is this ever stated? Show me.

Toriyama doesn't give a shit whether its for the movie or the manga

Toriyama said it literally in reference for the movie… the manga wasn’t even done with the Granolah arc yet and promo was just coming out for the movie. Nothing indicates this for the manga except bias.

when he said Orange Piccolo was on par with them he wasn't referring to a lower form. Logic dictates he is referring to UI Goku aka his full power.

We don’t know if Goku can activate UI at will within the anime continuation, meaning it’s simply Blue power.

It's said so in the movie. You should probably go back and watch it again.
This is Piccolo referring to Goku https://i.imgur.com/1u4DI0i.png

Toriyama's statement was made near the end of the Granolah Arc and he clearly knows what's going on in the manga, so his statement doesn't change.

The anime stopped at the ToP, so no the movie is not an anime continuation, the script was started with the intention of it coming after the Broly movie. Now that it has been brought to the manga that doesn't matter.

You believe in your headcanon that Ultimate Gohan isn't current SSB level in power or Orange Piccolo isn't UI level in power, and that's fine because it's your headcanon. You can sit here and repeat the same thing over and over until your face gets blue, it doesn't make it factual and it won't stop others from using logic to come to the conclusion we all came to.

[DragonBallFanatic]

It's said so in the movie. You should probably go back and watch it again.
This is Piccolo referring to Goku https://i.imgur.com/1u4DI0i.png

The discussion is about the last time he saw them in Blue. Seeing them ≠ seeing them at full power.

Toriyama’s statement has no evidence to be manga related. Just because it’s before the end of the Granolah arc doesn’t mean it can’t be a statement for the just the movie.

The Broly movie is literally a anime continuation to the ToP and the SH movie is a continuation of that, so it’s blatantly confirmed there’s anime and a manga continuation. There’s already clear differences in each arcs if you view them.

I’m using logic, you’re just assuming things.

[Mr Baggins]

Well it didn’t release worldwide

Well, that isn't relevant. The original post was in Japanese, intended for the Japanese audience where the movie already released and the manga is rather heavily advertised and marketed currently.

so statements posted after the release can still be for promotion or factual information.

While the post in question pertains to concepts introduced in the film, the actual comment isn't promotional. Toriyama just mentions he's personally happy that Piccolo is on par with Goku now, which reads like a statement about the series in general since that definitely isn't a plot point in Super Hero.

I won't pretend it's totally definitive that Orange Piccolo is as strong as some form of Ultra Instinct just yet, but the assumption that he's still just Blue tier (however wide that tier might be) seems like a bigger reach based on the evidence. I'd be more inclined to say that about the Potential Unleashed state.

[DragonBallFanatic]

Well, that isn't relevant. The original post was in Japanese, intended for the Japanese audience where the movie already released and the manga is rather heavily advertised and marketed currently.

Well obviously, these guys speak in Japanese… you know that right? You also know that Toriyama speaks for the whole fan base, not just the people in Japan? He can be sending out messages to everyone. It’s a simple concept

While the post in question pertains to concepts introduced in the film, the actual comment isn't promotional. Toriyama just mentions he's personally happy that Piccolo is on par with Goku now, which reads like a statement about the series in general since that definitely isn't a plot point in Super Hero.

I said “factual information” by the way, which can still be in ways to promote the movie. Promotional material can inform people on the film.

[Hugo Boss]

You said it was scripted with Gohan was out of shape for quite a bit of time, but I don't recall that every being revealed anywhere. Do you have a source for it you can link?

This is heavily implied by Piccolo when he went to confront Gohan about the reason he was not picking Pan up in the school, after he fought Gamma #2, and when Pan asked if Gohan could beat Gamma #1. The film repeats the same process of the recruitment episodes/chapters for the ToP, where Gohan had to recover his fighting instincts.

No. You've just said it. I already said that. I know Super Hero was set after and wrote before.

I don't care. I'm going by the manga now. If it's inconsistent then its also wrong. Then the line means nothing and the Gamma's and therefore Ultimate Gohan are not Super Saiyan Blue level as I said.

There is no need to act hostile, I’m not exactly trying to convince you or anything. It only seemed like you missed on this contextualization, so I felt the need to bring it up. It’s in the spirit of Kanzenshuu that everything is perfectly laid out to anyone that is reading. The replies are not only directed at you.

In resume, there is authorial intent behind these comparisons. Otherwise they wouldn’t have been written in the first place. We don’t have to necessarily agree on which version of Goku he is talking about in those instances.

[QuakingStar]

He can comment his same comments repeatedly, it doesn't change the fact that SSG level opponents are not a threat anymore to Ultimate Gohan regardless. That leaves the next stage which is the current standard form for Goku and Vegeta. "Logic"? No, you're ignoring the fact that power creep is a thing in the DB universe and has been since forever. You just don't WANT Ultimate Gohan to be current Blue level and in your headcanon that's fine.

@Hugo you are assuming it means Gohan had not been training since the Moro Arc, when Pan only started school months ago. Like I said Gohan could have been training since recently before Goten and Trunks SH Prequel Arc then he stopped for up to 7 months. You don't know HOW strong he got in the meantime and this is supposed to be 2-3 years after Granolah Arc, whereas Goku left Earth three weeks prior.

People keep assuming a few things.
1. Gohan stopped training immediately after Moro was defeated.
2. Toriyama was only referring to OPiccolo in the movie.
3. All of a sudden Power Creep/Seep is no longer a concept in DB