Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

@Hugo you are assuming it means Gohan had not been training since the Moro Arc, when Pan only started school months ago. Like I said Gohan could have been training since recently before Goten and Trunks SH Prequel Arc then he stopped for up to 7 months. You don't know HOW strong he got in the meantime and this is supposed to be 2-3 years after Granolah Arc, whereas Goku left Earth three weeks prior.

It’s not mentioned for how long Gohan has not been training, but considering the context the film was written Gohan likely hasn’t fought since RoF. Super Hero ignores Gohan’s progress from ToP and Moro, where Gohan had already got his edge back and abandoned the mentality of depending on Goku and Vegeta.

Come to think of it, this is probably a discussion to be had in another thread, but I believe Super Hero characterization is disconnected from Dragon Ball Super as a whole, specially the Saiyan trio. They don’t feel like they evolved at all as fighters.

[QuakingStar]

@Hugo you are assuming it means Gohan had not been training since the Moro Arc, when Pan only started school months ago. Like I said Gohan could have been training since recently before Goten and Trunks SH Prequel Arc then he stopped for up to 7 months. You don't know HOW strong he got in the meantime and this is supposed to be 2-3 years after Granolah Arc, whereas Goku left Earth three weeks prior.

It’s not mentioned for how long Gohan has not been training, but considering the context the film was written Gohan likely hasn’t fought since RoF. Super Hero ignores Gohan’s progress from ToP and Moro, where Gohan had already got his edge back and abandoned the mentality of depending on Goku and Vegeta.

Come to think of it, this is probably a discussion to be had in another thread, but I believe Super Hero characterization is disconnected from Dragon Ball Super as a whole, specially the Saiyan trio. They don’t feel like they evolved at all as fighters.

That can't be, the Broly movie comes after the ToP and we see that in the movie. We see that in SH as well. In both versions of the ToP Gohan got his Ultimate state back and proceeded to make gargantuan gains, going from weaker than Buutenks to being as strong as SS Kefla in the manga, and on the general level of SSB Goku in the anime. The SH Manga itself comes 2-3 years after the Granolah Arc and there is literally nothing to indicate that Gohan stopped training right after Moro was defeated. You're assuming that because Gohan had stopped training as pointed out by Piccoloin SH that means he hadn't been training at all for 2-3 years and couldn't have possibly gotten very, very strong before he stopped, and that is just simply an assumption. Gohan's newfound inclination to train was kept with him up until sometime around the point that Goten and Trunks SH Arc happened.. but now that I think about it I don't recall there being ANY mention of Gohan not training in their mini arc either.

[Hugo Boss]

In both versions of the ToP Gohan got his Ultimate state back and proceeded to make gargantuan gains, going from weaker than Buutenks to being as strong as SS Kefla in the manga, and on the general level of SSB Goku in the anime.

That’s the reason it doesn’t make sense to say that that Gohan from the ToP wouldn’t be able to beat the Gammas, since Gohan only got stronger after that point, not weaker. At least, that’s how the manga was portraying him before Super Hero.

Gohan had already learned he must not depend on Goku and Vegeta, so he was constantly training and Piccolo had confidence on him (promoting him as someone that they could definitely count on). But contrary to this development, the film portrays Gohan as a fighter that lost his edge and self responsibility (out of the blue).

The SH Manga itself comes 2-3 years after the Granolah Arc and there is literally nothing to indicate that Gohan stopped training right after Moro was defeated.

You’re absolutely right on this, which makes all this situation confusing for the audience that’s actively reading the manga.

You're assuming that because Gohan had stopped training as pointed out by Piccoloin SH that means he hadn't been training at all for 2-3 years and couldn't have possibly gotten very, very strong before he stopped, and that is just simply an assumption.

I’m just referring to what the film shows us. I honestly don’t see any reason to doubt that a Gohan that fought Moro would have any problem at dealing with the Gammas.

Even Piccolo himself from Moro arc arguably was at a level comparable to his Potential Unleashed state from the movie, since he likely surpassed #17 and Ultimate Gohan from the ToP.

Gohan’s newfound inclination to train was kept with him up until sometime around the point that Goten and Trunks SH Arc happened.. but now that I think about it I don't recall there being ANY mention of Gohan not training in their mini arc either.

See how that is disconnected? How Gohan suddenly goes from “definitely someone we can count on” to “we can’t count on him right now” in a flash.

[QuakingStar]

In both versions of the ToP Gohan got his Ultimate state back and proceeded to make gargantuan gains, going from weaker than Buutenks to being as strong as SS Kefla in the manga, and on the general level of SSB Goku in the anime.

That’s the reason it doesn’t make sense to say that that Gohan from the ToP wouldn’t be able to beat the Gammas, since Gohan only got stronger after that point, not weaker. At least, that’s how the manga was portraying him before Super Hero.

Gohan had already learned he must not depend on Goku and Vegeta, so he was constantly training and Piccolo had confidence on him (promoting him as someone that they could definitely count on). But contrary to this development, the film portrays Gohan as a fighter that lost his edge and self responsibility (out of the blue).

The SH Manga itself comes 2-3 years after the Granolah Arc and there is literally nothing to indicate that Gohan stopped training right after Moro was defeated.

You’re absolutely right on this, which makes all this situation confusing for the audience that’s actively reading the manga.

You're assuming that because Gohan had stopped training as pointed out by Piccolo in SH that means he hadn't been training at all for 2-3 years and couldn't have possibly gotten very, very strong before he stopped, and that is just simply an assumption.

I’m just referring to what the film shows us. I honestly don’t see any reason to doubt that a Gohan that fought Moro would have any problem at dealing with the Gammas.

Even Piccolo himself from Moro arc arguably was at a level comparable to his Potential Unleashed state from the movie, since he likely surpassed #17 and Ultimate Gohan from the ToP.

Gohan’s newfound inclination to train was kept with him up until sometime around the point that Goten and Trunks SH Arc happened.. but now that I think about it I don't recall there being ANY mention of Gohan not training in their mini arc either.

See how that is disconnected? How Gohan suddenly goes from “definitely someone we can count on” to “we can’t count on him right now” in a flash.

Gohans Ultimate State seems to bring him back to how it was when he used it previously when he manages to re-enter it, in DBS ToP Saga when he reattains it his power is brought back to what it was when he fought Buutenks. Gohan could have easily trained up until sometime before the SH Prequel Arc and we don't know HOW strong he got at that point. Now lets look at how fast people get weaker from not training... Goku in DBS stopped training for what? a few weeks? a month? and he was taking damage from a robbers bullets and commenting on how rusty he got. Does that mean Gohans Ultimate State would get weaker? No, with what we are shown it would either be at the very minimum as strong as it was before he lost it last which could have been a month before the SH Prequel Arc. Power Creep would also be another explanation, Gohans power grew a LOT between Moro Arc and the point he quit training hard again. There's plenty of open space there, almost 2 years of it. So Gohan WITH his Ultimate State being current Blue level is by no means far fetched, as we are talking about power here not technique or skill.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

To be fair, Gohan being able to use the Ultimate state without any troubles points to this anime/manga development having stuck post-RoF.

He may have lost a bit of his edge like in RoF, but unlike then he clearly still kept up his training to a degree and only needed some motivation to bring back his full power.

And we have to remember that only a year happened between BoG and RoF where Gohan deteriorated dramatically, but here his actual level of power has remained similar to what it was before if not significantly greater prior to attaining Beast despite it being a bit longer since the ToP.

[QuakingStar]

To be fair, Gohan being able to use the Ultimate state without any troubles points to this anime/manga development having stuck post-RoF.

He may have lost a bit of his edge like in RoF, but unlike then he clearly still kept up his training to a degree and only needed some motivation to bring back his full power.

And we have to remember that only a year happened between BoG and RoF where Gohan deteriorated dramatically, but here his actual level of power has remained similar to what it was before if not significantly greater prior to attaining Beast despite it being a bit longer since the ToP.

Exactly, and we don't know HOW strong he got before he stopped training seriously again either.

[Hugo Boss]

If that was the case, that Gohan kept most of the power he built in Moro arc, then it wouldn’t make sense for Gohan to have any difficulty at dealing with Gamma #1, who is only as strong as Goku and Vegeta from post-Broly.

For me, it’s more likely that Ultimate Gohan, SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta have similar strength, to keep things consistent to the original intent (powerlevels compared to DB Super from the year of 2018, when they were still weaker than Jiren and Moro arc was not written yet).

There isn’t any kind of note for shared continuity between films and manga, much to the contrary. As Cipher said:

The films are scripted and produced on their own time (prior to later storylines; this one with producing preceding Moro and Granolah, and Broly being written before the ToP had been fully fleshed out in either version), and are relatively stand-alone plot-wise, so you kind of just have to shrug and accept some level of disconnect--especially because tying them too heavily into continuity of a (niche magazine) manga-only storyline is a death knell compared to the kind of broad audiences DB movies are meant to reach.

Full post for reference.

[QuakingStar]

If that was the case, that Gohan kept most of the power he built in Moro arc, then it wouldn’t make sense for Gohan to have any difficulty at dealing with Gamma #1, who is only as strong as Goku and Vegeta from post-Broly.

For me, it’s more likely that Ultimate Gohan, SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta have similar strength, to keep things consistent to the original intent (powerlevels compared to DB Super from the year of 2018, when they were still weaker than Jiren and Moro arc was not written yet).

There isn’t any kind of note for shared continuity between films and manga, much to the contrary. As Cipher said:

The films are scripted and produced on their own time (prior to later storylines; this one with producing preceding Moro and Granolah, and Broly being written before the ToP had been fully fleshed out in either version), and are relatively stand-alone plot-wise, so you kind of just have to shrug and accept some level of disconnect--especially because tying them too heavily into continuity of a (niche magazine) manga-only storyline is a death knell compared to the kind of broad audiences DB movies are meant to reach.

Full post for reference.

Sure, but again the intention on the characters strengths via statements is brought to the manga for the Gammas and never contradicted in the case of the OPiccolo statement. The Gammas are STILL compared to Goku and Vegeta in the manga so claiming that OPiccolo statement and the Gammas statements are invalid due to them originally being for an in the movie and then only for ToP, Broly Movie and forward no longer holds water.

[Miracles]

The story doesn't even know if Goku or Vegeta could of beaten Cell Max. Orange Piccolo lost [I don't remember if Orange Piccolo was at full power?] to the behemoth. Toriyama does indeed say [According to Herms translation] that Piccolo does indeed have "battle power" on par with Goku and Co. So it seems Piccolo is very close to Goku and Vegeta if not equal.

It also shows that the Gamma's being on par with Goku & Vegeta according to Piccolo's estimation was proven wrong when Piccolo himself smoked a Gamma with one blow and the narration not knowing of Goku and Vegeta could defeat Cell Max.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The story doesn't even know if Goku or Vegeta could of beaten Cell Max. Orange Piccolo lost [I don't remember if Orange Piccolo was at full power?] to the behemoth. Toriyama does indeed say [According to Herms translation] that Piccolo does indeed have "battle power" on par with Goku and Co. So it seems Piccolo is very close to Goku and Vegeta if not equal.

It also shows that the Gamma's being on par with Goku & Vegeta according to Piccolo's estimation was proven wrong when Piccolo himself smoked a Gamma with one blow and the narration not knowing of Goku and Vegeta could defeat Cell Max.

Seeing as how the statements exist independently and don't necessarily contradict each other given how different forms exist for Goku and Vegeta to represent different levels of power, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

Piccolo can be right about the Gammas being about as strong as Goku and Vegeta are on average AND Toriyama can still consider Piccolo finally on-par with Goku overall. His Ultimate form is roughly equal to Gamma 2 in strength like how Ultimate Gohan is around as strong as Gamma 1, indeed putting him on par with that level of Goku he estimated the Gammas to be as strong as.

Then Toriyama, having had time to reflect and think about the rankings, can consider Orange Piccolo to also be equal to Goku,. albeit at a higher level that Goku reaches. Seeing as how Cell Max was compared to Broly in the same instance, and how Orange Piccolo could still somewhat fight him despite being disadvantaged in power, it'd fit with the rankings overall still.

Hence why most of us are putting the Gammas as equal to Goku and Vegeta's "normal" best (SSB), while Orange Piccolo is equal to their "absolute best" (Ultra Instinct/Ego).

[Miracles]

The story doesn't even know if Goku or Vegeta could of beaten Cell Max. Orange Piccolo lost [I don't remember if Orange Piccolo was at full power?] to the behemoth. Toriyama does indeed say [According to Herms translation] that Piccolo does indeed have "battle power" on par with Goku and Co. So it seems Piccolo is very close to Goku and Vegeta if not equal.

It also shows that the Gamma's being on par with Goku & Vegeta according to Piccolo's estimation was proven wrong when Piccolo himself smoked a Gamma with one blow and the narration not knowing of Goku and Vegeta could defeat Cell Max.

Seeing as how the statements exist independently and don't necessarily contradict each other given how different forms exist for Goku and Vegeta to represent different levels of power, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

Piccolo can be right about the Gammas being about as strong as Goku and Vegeta are on average AND Toriyama can still consider Piccolo finally on-par with Goku overall. His Ultimate form is roughly equal to Gamma 2 in strength like how Ultimate Gohan is around as strong as Gamma 1, indeed putting him on par with that level of Goku he estimated the Gammas to be as strong as.

Then Toriyama, having had time to reflect and think about the rankings, can consider Orange Piccolo to also be equal to Goku,. albeit at a higher level that Goku reaches. Seeing as how Cell Max was compared to Broly in the same instance, and how Orange Piccolo could still somewhat fight him despite being disadvantaged in power, it'd fit with the rankings overall still.

Hence why most of us are putting the Gammas as equal to Goku and Vegeta's "normal" best (SSB), while Orange Piccolo is equal to their "absolute best" (Ultra Instinct/Ego).

Since the statements concerning the Gamma's were uncertainties [Piccolo said "seems"] and then contradicted by action subsequently [Orange Piccolo one shotting a Gamma] and by further narration [First Goku and Vegeta were said to "rival" a Gamma in theory then it's unknown if they would lose to Cell Max who is stronger than the Gamma's], I think it's safe to assume that we could dismiss it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

There's also the fact that Ultimate Gohan is firmly slightly superior to the Gammas, themselves noted to be the strongest Androids ever.

Given the series' penchant for escalation, it'd make sense they were stronger than 17, himself not far off of Super Saiyan Blue in both mediums.

As well, knowing the film was conceptualized and scripted with the Broly film in mind, it was most likely suited to SSB being the highest power available to Goku and Vegeta at the time. Meanwhile, Toriyama's interview statement seems to take into consideration post-Broly developments like Ultra Instinct given that he came to this conclusion long after.

The 2 aren't really contradictory, because it's clear that both are indeed referring to Goku at different levels of his "full power". The former from the film itself refers to the level that the movies had known, while Toriyama's refers to taking into considering post-Broly knowledge like Ultra Instinct.

[ZombieVito]

The story doesn't even know if Goku or Vegeta could of beaten Cell Max. Orange Piccolo lost [I don't remember if Orange Piccolo was at full power?] to the behemoth. Toriyama does indeed say [According to Herms translation] that Piccolo does indeed have "battle power" on par with Goku and Co. So it seems Piccolo is very close to Goku and Vegeta if not equal.

It also shows that the Gamma's being on par with Goku & Vegeta according to Piccolo's estimation was proven wrong when Piccolo himself smoked a Gamma with one blow and the narration not knowing of Goku and Vegeta could defeat Cell Max.

Piccolo never took a senzu so he shouldn't be at full power. Especially after the betting he got from Gamma 2.

[Hugo Boss]

Considering that Toriyama commented about Orange Piccolo right after the True Ultra Instinct reveal in the manga, the implication may be that Piccolo could play a significant role in the fight against Gas.

Come to think of it, Granolah and Gas got stronger using dragon balls as well, so the end result for Piccolo using a similar method, even getting extra power, would likely be more or less on Ultra Instinct level, like them. The only difference is that Piccolo didn’t need to sacrifice years of his life. He was the perfect candidate for the wish in a balanced way.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So I made this list trying to mix all 3 versions into a definitive scale of DBS. Wasn't sure if it would fit better here or on the power levels thread, so I posted it there and thought I'd share the link here.

viewtopic.php?p=1773319#p1773319

[Hugo Boss]

Just got a look on Bandai’s new set of wafer stickers and some details caught my attention.

Legend of Tenkaichi, scheduled to release in March 2024, is the 9th installment of "Dragon Ball Super Warrior Seal Wafers Super", since the collections’ brand has changed from "Z" to "Super".

This selection in particular combines multiple lineups that were seen even in initial collections. And by working from this premise, despite the good intention, someone has terribly misunderstood the purpose of the campaign.

Highlights:
- Freeza’s final form from Namek arc (6,400) being stronger than Innocent Boo (6,000) and Super Gotenks (4,800). This is actually the same number that Freeza had in the Tournament of Power, apparently someone forgot to adjust it.
- Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto with the same number Super Saiyan Vegetto has in Boo arc (7,500).
- Super Saiyan Goku from Cell arc (5,000) appeared weaker than his version from Namek (5,500).
- Goku (post Kaio training) (3,000) weaker than Raditz (3,100), as well.
- Super Saiyan Gohan (Future) (4,900) being stronger than Super Saiyan Trunks (Future) (4,500), despite this being the version that easily destroyed #17 (Future) and #18 (Future), both appearing with 4,500. It’s like Gohan and Trunks changed positions.
- Finally, the most unexpected reveal is Krillin and Freeza’s 1st form being equally matched (4,000). We have a certain Saiyan in disguise here?

I see those numbers were originally released in different sets and never appeared together until now. It would have been a great opportunity to see how they would adjust them, so sad they didn’t give the necessary changes. It’s evident the staff responsible for this product was unable to maintain a correct alignment with the power hierarchy presented in the series.

[QuakingStar]

Just got a look on Bandai’s new set of wafer stickers and some details caught my attention.

Legend of Tenkaichi, scheduled to release in March 2024, is the 9th installment of "Dragon Ball Super Warrior Seal Wafers Super", since the collections’ brand has changed from "Z" to "Super".

This selection in particular combines multiple lineups that were seen even in initial collections. And by working from this premise, despite the good intention, someone has terribly misunderstood the purpose of the campaign.

Highlights:
- Freeza’s final form from Namek arc (6,400) being stronger than Innocent Boo (6,000) and Super Gotenks (4,800). This is actually the same number that Freeza had in the Tournament of Power, apparently someone forgot to adjust it.
- Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto with the same number Super Saiyan Vegetto has in Boo arc (7,500).
- Super Saiyan Goku from Cell arc (5,000) appeared weaker than his version from Namek (5,500).
- Goku (post Kaio training) (3,000) weaker than Raditz (3,100), as well.
- Super Saiyan Gohan (Future) (4,900) being stronger than Super Saiyan Trunks (Future) (4,500), despite this being the version that easily destroyed #17 (Future) and #18 (Future), both appearing with 4,500. It’s like Gohan and Trunks changed positions.
- Finally, the most unexpected reveal is Krillin and Freeza’s 1st form being equally matched (4,000). We have a certain Saiyan in disguise here?

I see those numbers were originally released in different sets and never appeared together until now. It would have been a great opportunity to see how they would adjust them, so sad they didn’t give the necessary changes. It’s evident the staff responsible for this product was unable to maintain a correct alignment with the power hierarchy presented in the series.

Those numbers are not meant to be taken seriously, come on now.....

[Hugo Boss]

Those numbers are not meant to be taken seriously, come on now.....

Every time I post about wafer stickers, this same comment pops up. And every time I have to make the same response: none is forcing or suggesting you to take it seriously. It’s just a product that has level of skills assigned to the characters seen in animated movies and television series. And it’s aimed at collectors, not power level enthusiasts.

[Miracles]

The story doesn't even know if Goku or Vegeta could of beaten Cell Max. Orange Piccolo lost [I don't remember if Orange Piccolo was at full power?] to the behemoth. Toriyama does indeed say [According to Herms translation] that Piccolo does indeed have "battle power" on par with Goku and Co. So it seems Piccolo is very close to Goku and Vegeta if not equal.

It also shows that the Gamma's being on par with Goku & Vegeta according to Piccolo's estimation was proven wrong when Piccolo himself smoked a Gamma with one blow and the narration not knowing of Goku and Vegeta could defeat Cell Max.

Piccolo never took a senzu so he shouldn't be at full power. Especially after the betting he got from Gamma 2.

Thanks for that @ZombieVito. Piccolo gave the Senzu to Gohan. Betting everything on Gohan's power.

[QuakingStar]

The story doesn't even know if Goku or Vegeta could of beaten Cell Max. Orange Piccolo lost [I don't remember if Orange Piccolo was at full power?] to the behemoth. Toriyama does indeed say [According to Herms translation] that Piccolo does indeed have "battle power" on par with Goku and Co. So it seems Piccolo is very close to Goku and Vegeta if not equal.

It also shows that the Gamma's being on par with Goku & Vegeta according to Piccolo's estimation was proven wrong when Piccolo himself smoked a Gamma with one blow and the narration not knowing of Goku and Vegeta could defeat Cell Max.

Piccolo never took a senzu so he shouldn't be at full power. Especially after the betting he got from Gamma 2.

Thanks for that @ZombieVito. Piccolo gave the Senzu to Gohan. Betting everything on Gohan's power.

Yup, he knew he couldn't beat Cell Max but he thought that Gohan could if he could just tap into his true power(Just like Cell Games Goku and Cell Games Gohan.)