Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Mireya]

Hmm, interesting add with all these cool informations about the book.

I also share the opinion the Spanish may be the closest one... I think the exaggerating 10x lines, lile GSM pointed out, may be a mark of the translator. Though the 10x increase in regards to Grade III may be legit in concerns to the Japanese producers, since it appears in both... Unless the Spanish translators/company caught in the hype of the French one always using 10x and decided this one would feat really well for buff Trunks haha. And I wouldn't say this is a non-possibility, may be the case.

The thing about the 5x, while maybe closer to the actual JP information, may also be a call back to the Spanish manga as pointed above. Though I still think it may very well be in the original and makes sense, as speaking to a Japanese friend, he clarified the word used by Nail when describing Piccolo's increase pretty much always implies/falls in the line of a 3 ~ 6x boost... Which would compliment the 5x increase very well... And also gives supoort to the cool fan theory that merging with Kami resources Piccolo with a 2x power up -- if Piccolo x 5 > 2nd form Freeza FP, then he was likely in the 300k area... Since Nail stated that if he had joined Kami as one again, he "perhaps" would have defeated Freeza -- 300,000 x 2 = 600,000 > 530,000 (but not by much)... It all falls in line swiflty.

I think the Gohan's one may be a tricky one. It's very possible it's referring to Gohan realising that his dormant power were above Cell's, not his current SSJ power, since all their speech were centered and focused on Gohan cutting loose. Gohan doesn't want to become mad and release all his power not wanting kill Cell --- not referring to his current state. Cell took that immediately as a "hmm you could never kill me but your sleeping powers interest me", with Gohan also commenting on his released power -- the focus was never current Gohan, the focus on him was just as an impressive warrior who made Cell realize is stronger than Goku, but by Cell's standards, only the FP interested him. It's difficult to say Gohan didn't try his best to prevent Cell when rushing at him as SSJ when Cell was creating the Juniors, and Cell kinda easily kicked him to the rocks, saying "if you wanna do it, get angry the right way"... The story portrayed Gohan's enraged powers as a threat to Cell only.

Kaioshin ~ CGs Goku is honestly a placement I like... Though the reason they justify that seems too simple. "By the way Kaioshin reacts to Dabra (=Cell) it can be presumed he's about as strong as CGs Goku..." ... What? You can't infer such a concrete placement based on his cautiousness over Dabra, that's not a solid thing to pick on to compare both. Didn't it offer any reasoning I'd give it more credit, but the reasoning is clearly lacking. Maybe if it said something like "by being way above Piccolo in power, but still threatened by Cell's levels of power and boo saga SSJ Goku, it can be inferred his placement falls in the range of CGs SSJ Goku"...

Goku being the strongest in the universe by the EoZ seems interesting. Unlike any statement from the manga, that one, from where I read it in your post, seems kinda straightforward to me. "Goku has become the strongest but is always trying to push his limits"... Direct statement on Goku's strength, it seems, as pushing limits is likely in reference of his own power, like "not being satisfied by being the strongest". I've always disliked this notion though, ignoring Super (which I always do) and going with the original manga, I saw Gohan's potential release as a legit release that went even beyond Gohan's powers, and doesn't seem like a typical unlock, the ritual seemed more focused not to bring merely what's on the surface, but to bring everything out, as can be interpreted by Gohan not even needing to transform (giving the state a final, definitive one charm) and his changed expressions, going from that mature face to a more manly one, with outlined eyes and Piccolo noticing he seemed to have lost his usual naiveté. So if that's beyond what Gohan could acquer, which already surpassed the fusion of the super gifted kids (which Goku stresses in Fusion being so strong, the warrior can't get to that level on their own), meaning Gohan's boost was just insane. So I like seeing Goku making big progresses and bridging the gap a lot, but still have post RoSaT Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan as a wall the original manga couldn't overcome.

It's interesting it's said the ones killed by Gohan and Kuririn upon Namek's arrival are Raditz/Saibaiman level... By that logic, Raditz can't really be 1500 to be compared to those warriors among the Saibaimen, as Gohan and Kuririn were read as "around 1500" and easily KO'd them... And honestly, it makes sense to me... With Raditz being a 1,250, a 1,300 at most.

[Koitsukai]

How strong would Krilin be if he had saiyan biology? not Goku's drive to become stronger and stronger and fight everybody, just a power boost after recovering from serious injuries.

We know he used to get owned pretty often, so if those beatings had a zenkai boost attached to them, how strong would he have gotten in each arc? I'm certain he'd be key vs Raditz, Goku probably wouldn't die, etc.
Could he be a decent contender vs Nappa? could Vegeta survive Gohan and Krilin on Earth? (no ohzaru for Krilin, though)
What about on Namek? or even vs the androids? would that make any difference?
When would he unlock SS if he had saiyan DNA?

How strong would he be by now, as of SH?

[Hugo Boss]

How strong would Krilin be if he had saiyan biology?

Probably as strong as Gohan without the awakenings. Or around Goten and Trunks? It’s difficult to imagine anything other than that.

[ZombieVito]

How strong would Krilin be if he had saiyan biology? not Goku's drive to become stronger and stronger and fight everybody, just a power boost after recovering from serious injuries.

We know he used to get owned pretty often, so if those beatings had a zenkai boost attached to them, how strong would he have gotten in each arc? I'm certain he'd be key vs Raditz, Goku probably wouldn't die, etc.
Could he be a decent contender vs Nappa? could Vegeta survive Gohan and Krilin on Earth? (no ohzaru for Krilin, though)
What about on Namek? or even vs the androids? would that make any difference?
When would he unlock SS if he had saiyan DNA?

How strong would he be by now, as of SH?

Probably stronger than SS Goten and Trunks by a wide margin.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong would Krilin be if he had saiyan biology? not Goku's drive to become stronger and stronger and fight everybody, just a power boost after recovering from serious injuries.

We know he used to get owned pretty often, so if those beatings had a zenkai boost attached to them, how strong would he have gotten in each arc? I'm certain he'd be key vs Raditz, Goku probably wouldn't die, etc.
Could he be a decent contender vs Nappa? could Vegeta survive Gohan and Krilin on Earth? (no ohzaru for Krilin, though)
What about on Namek? or even vs the androids? would that make any difference?
When would he unlock SS if he had saiyan DNA?

How strong would he be by now, as of SH?

He'd be keeping up with Goku for most of the first series, but still be a step behind. So nothing in the original series changes: He still loses to Roshi, Goku and Piccolo in the Budokais. Maybe he doesn't die to Tambourine though, unless he's also tired from the tournament?

Kuririn can't do much against Raditz because he doesn't train with Kami, so he's way behind Goku and Piccolo. I think he's up there with Enraged Kid Gohan for most of DBZ, so other than them putting up slightly better fights there's not much that can change.

Without training in the Rosat, Kuririn is going to peak at Pre Rosat Base levels in Z, until he trains with 18 for the ToP and most likely gets to her level (Above Pride Troopers but just behind Ribrianne, Piccolo, Base Goku etc). Don't see him unlocking Super Saiyan since he doesn't train much and there's no emotional moment for him to pull it off.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I made a list for DBS, but there's a catch: this is for all versions of it at once. Since there's contradictions between each medium yet all are canon, plus Toriyama is bound to forget a lot of stuff. In a way, this is both a power level list and an educated guess on what the story of DBS is in AT's head.

So basically this is movies + stuff from Toriyama's notes (Identifies as common points between anime and manga) + Whatever's more popular or makes more sense to fill the gaps, since it's more likely for Toriyama to remember (So goodbye to the confusing anime wank or the horrendous manga version of Vegeta vs Black).

Battle of Gods
(Following the movie as we know it.)

Goku: 1
~ SSJ: 50
~ SSJ2: 100
~ SSJ3: 400

Ultimate Gohan: 360
SSJ3 Gotenks: 30

SSJ2 Vegeta: 100
~ Enraged: 1,000

Vegetto (Hypothetical): 600
~ SSJ3: 240,000

SSJG Goku (80%): 8,000,000

(Could be way less, but this exact number made the following ones neater.)

Goku (Post SSJG): 400,000
~ SSJ: 2,000,000
~ SSJG (100%): 10,000,000

(Goku says he's only using 80% of SSJG's power before losing the form, and Beerus says his power didn't go down "all that much". Initially the idea was for SSJG to vanish entirely, but since it didn't I had to push Base and SSJ way down. A bit jarring in the context of the fight, but SSJG is clearly on a league of it's own when Goku reactivates it.)

Beerus (Not 70%): 1,250,000

(Actually he's at 1%.)

Ressurrection F
(Ditto.)

Goku/Vegeta: 500,000
~ SSJB: 25,000,000

(With the multipliers compressed (more on this in "DBS: Broly"), SSJB can be 50x and replace SSJ on that regard.)

Freeza: 450,000
~ Golden form: 30,000,000

Tournament of Destroyers
(Most of the events on this saga are the same, so only Hit needs some guesswork.)

Goku/Vegeta: 600,000
~ SSJ: 3,000,000
~ SSJG: 15,000,000
~ SSJB: 30,000,000

(I suspect Toyotaro reintroducing the form led to it's animated revival, so it's included here.)

Piccolo: 600,000

Botamo: 100,000

Frost: 265,000
~ Assault form: 600,000
~ True form: 2,000,000

Magetta: 3,000,000

Cabba: 600,000
~ SSJ: 3,000,000

Hit: 25,000,000

(Hit is a step below SSJB in both mediums, but even in the manga it's suggested he could've continued to fight Blue Goku, even if not as good as his anime self.
Personally, I like to imagine the fight went like it did on the anime, but instead of Goku going from SSJB to KK, he went from SSJG to Blue.)

Future Trunks Saga
(This is when it gets tricky. The basic plot is: Trunks comes back, Black and Zamasu kicks their arses in the future, Goku and Vegeta train in the present, come back and force Zamasu to fuse, and Goku calls Zeno.
On a non-scaling side, I'd say the manga version has better plot while the anime has better characterization. This goes specially for the Future Boo Saga, the manga depiction even made it's way into becoming a DBZ: Kakarott DLC. Goku never meeting Present Zamasu and Shin leading the investigation made more sense too.)

Future Trunks: 600,000
~ SSJ2: 3,750,000
~ SSJRage: 37,500,000

(Although this form is anime-only, "Super Hero" validates its existence by showing hybrids can asspull their own god-like forms. Plus, an asspull is preferable to sidelining the main character of the saga. Btw, he's responsible for destroying Zamasu's body and birthing Infinite Zamasu in both versions, but the manga made more sense by having him attack a weakened Zamasu.)

Goku/Vegeta: 600,000
~ SSJ2: 3,750,000
~ SSJ3 (Goku only): 7,500,000
~ SSJB: 30,000,000

Goku Black: 9,375,000
~ SSJ: 18,750,000
~ SSJR: 37,500,000

(Base Black is said to be > SSJ3 Goku in both versions. Toriyama's draft said Black had both SSJ and SSJR and the Zenkais are a common point in both plots, so maybe SSJ Black gets beat up by Vegeta and unlocks SSJR as a Zenkai?
Also I don't think the notes specified it, but the manga was idiotic to NOT have Goku vs Black. That's the whole point of Goku Black! Not that it's relevant to the plot or scaling, but still.)

Future Zamasu: 3,750,000

Goku/Vegeta (Post training): 1,000,000
~ SSJG: 25,000,000
~ SSJB: 50,000,000

(Vegeta training in the Rosat is canon, so Goku must also have powered up from the Mafuba training somehow. SSJG added here because the bursts thing may have happened (and this was SSJG Vegeta's debut), though PSSJB doesn't exist in Toriyama's mind.)

Merged Zamasu: 75,000,000

(In Toriyama's notes, the Saiyans would hold their own with Zamasu and he'd only survive because of immortality. This sorta happens in the anime before he gets all purple (and in the manga thanks to PSSJB), so imagine something like that but Zamasu isn't at 0.0001%.)

Vegetto: 75,000,000
~ SSJB: 3,750,000,000

(Not in the original plan, but it ended up on both versions so it's canon. Manga made way more sense with the future scaling by having Vegetto curbstomp Zamasu.)

Tournament of Power
(Not worth going through details on this one since it's a big battle royale. Just think of whatever details they have in common: U9 goes first, Ribrianne fights 18, humans do nothing; U6, U7 and U11 are the only relevant universes, Goku and Vegeta team up; Goku, Freeza and 17 are the last ones standing etc.)

Goku: 1,000,000
~ SSJ: 5,000,000
~ SSJ2: 6,250,000
~ SSJ3: 12,500,000
~ SSJG: 25,000,000
~ SSJB: 50,000,000
~ UI Sign: 500,000,000
~ UI: 1,250,000,000

(UI only exists because Toei wanted a new form, but since it exists in both versions and Toriyama designed it, it has to be canon. UIO was made by Toei, but I'm willing to bet it's a thing too so unlocking UI won't be too easy. No idea how Goku unlocked it, but it sure as hell wasn't because of Roshi.)

Vegeta: 1,000,000
~ SSJ: 5,000,000
~ SSJB: 50,000,000

(Although SSJBE exists in both mediums, Toriyama has ignored it completely in the new movies. You can't have Vegeta having an extra form over Goku.)

Freeza: 5,000,000
~ Golden form: 50,000,000

(Base Freeza has SSJ-levels feat in both mediums: He fights SSJ Caulifla in the manga and forces Cabba to unlock SSJ2 in the anime.)

Ultimate Gohan: 40,000,000
Android 17: 40,000,000

(Both are portrayed as only somewhat below SSJB Goku.)

Piccolo: 1,000,000
Android 18 and humans: Same as always

(Piccolo is consistently portrayed as base level, and the rest of the team has no special feats or moments. It's implied Toriyama wanted Roshi to do something special, but the anime had it perfecty with him almost dying to beat fodder and making Goku cry.)

Cabba: 900,000
~ SSJ: 4,500,000
~ SSJ2: 5,625,000

Caulifla: 1,000,000
~ SSJ: 5,000,000
~ SSJ2: 6,250,000

Kale: 2,000,000
~ SSJ: 10,000,000
~ LSSJ: 40,000,000

(Toei made Kale as a Broly-copy, and she has SSJB-tier feats in both stories. Toriyama made Caulifla to go along with her, and he acknowledges Kefla in a "DBS: Broly" flashback. Caulifla's probably ~ Goku like in the anime.)

Kefla: 10,000,000
~ SSJ: 50,000,000
~ SSJ2: 500,000,000

(Anime SSJ Kefla matches Goku's strongest power (KKx20 there, just SSJB here) and Manga Kefla ties with Gohan, who's just behind Goku. She's a much better foe for Goku than for Gohan, so I'm vaguely going with the anime here and giving her a SSJ2 form that matches UIO Goku. It's a massive boost, but that's because of her bottomless LSSJ potential.

Hit: 50,000,000

(The rest of U6 is same as before, and I'm not sure how strong the Namekians are. Toriyama didn't give any specific instructions about them, and it's possible he didn't even design them)

Dyspo: 5,000,000
Topppo: 50,000,000

Jiren: 50,000,000
~ Fighting: 500,000,000
~ Full power: 1,250,000,000

(Manga Dyspo's best feat is beating SSJ2 Goku, and Anime Dyspo is weaker than Base Freeza. Toppo is Toppo. Taking "Super Hero" into account, Jiren has some sort of Kaioken-ish fighting style to fight in bursts.)

GoDs: 1,250,000,000

(They're more or less all the same, and tied with UI Goku, Jiren and LSSJ Broly.)

Broly

Goku/Vegeta: 1,000,000
~ SSJ: 5,000,000
~ SSJG: 25,000,000
~ SSJB: 50,000,000

Broly: 5,000,000
~ Ikari: 50,000,000
~ SSJ: 250,000,000
~ LSSJ: 1,250,000,000

(Just by unlocking Oozaru power, Broly goes from just above SSJ level to just below SSJB level, but I made all the levels equals for simplicity's sake. Point is, a 10x boost takes you from SSJ to SSJB in this movie.

Gogeta: 50,000,000
~ SSJ: 250,000,000
~ SSJB: 2,500,000,000

(Gogeta seems stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta, but since he's "only" equal to SSJ Broly we'll leave him at that.

Super Hero

Gammas: 37,500,000 each

(Said to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta, but they're on the lower end since even Gohan has the upperhand on Gamma 1.)

Piccolo: 1,400,000
~ Ultimate: 35,000,000
~ Orange form: 75,000,000

(On pair with Goku and Vegeta according to word of god, though I suspect Toriyama might have already forgotten his own movie. The script was written years ago!

Gohan: 1,000,000
~ SSJ: 5,000,000
~ Ultimate: 40,000,000
~ Beast form: 400,000,000

(Toriyama didn't say Gohan is the strongest, he merely acknowledged that fans perceive him as such.

Cell Max: 200,000,000
~ Weakened: 100,000,000
~ Complete (Unseen): 2,000,000,000

Goku/Vegeta: 1,500,000
~ SSJB (Unseen): 75,000,000

(Being a few years after, I think it's fair to say Goku and Vegeta have gotten stronger. It's the only way to explain how both Orange Piccolo and the Gammas are comparable to them despite being tiers apart.)

[ZombieVito]

Goku/Vegeta (Post training): 1,000,000
~ SSJG: 25,000,000
~ SSJB: 50,000,000

(Vegeta training in the Rosat is canon, so Goku must also have powered up from the Mafuba training somehow. SSJG added here because the bursts thing may have happened (and this was SSJG Vegeta's debut), though PSSJB doesn't exist in Toriyama's mind.)

Vegetto: 75,000,000
~ SSJB: 3,750,000,000

(Not in the original plan, but it ended up on both versions so it's canon. Manga made way more sense with the future scaling by having Vegetto curbstomp Zamasu.)

1) Or he got a rage boost that was permanent like the anime.
2) How does it make more sense? The anime had a very valid reason why Zamasu matched Vegetto.

[QuakingStar]

Yeah, something that I just realized is that in DBS the rage boosts seem to indeed be permanent..

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, something that I just realized is that in DBS the rage boosts seem to indeed be permanent..

Yeah, Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks and Goku Black all kept their rage boosts.

Maybe Gohan didn't because he was a kid.

[fleahop]

...
Piccolo: 600,000
...

I feel like an explanation is warranted for this one.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

1) Or he got a rage boost that was permanent like the anime.
2) How does it make more sense? The anime had a very valid reason why Zamasu matched Vegetto.

1) The overall idea is that he got in the Rosat, trained and came out stronger. Saying rage was his fuel is just a secondary thing.
2) If Gogeta is above Beerus, then the same should apply to Vegetto unless Goku and Vegeta became stronger (Which is the case in the anime, but probably not what AT envisioned).

Yeah, something that I just realized is that in DBS the rage boosts seem to indeed be permanent..

I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that. Black was basically getting Zenkais, and Vegeta's speech sounds like he used his anger as motivation while training.

I feel like an explanation is warranted for this one.

Frost feels he needs poison to beat Piccolo easily, no need to expose himself if he could just one shot him. I think this one is pretty standard.

[ZombieVito]

1) Or he got a rage boost that was permanent like the anime.
2) How does it make more sense? The anime had a very valid reason why Zamasu matched Vegetto.

1) The overall idea is that he got in the Rosat, trained and came out stronger. Saying rage was his fuel is just a secondary thing.
2) If Gogeta is above Beerus, then the same should apply to Vegetto unless Goku and Vegeta became stronger (Which is the case in the anime, but probably not what AT envisioned).

Yeah, something that I just realized is that in DBS the rage boosts seem to indeed be permanent..

I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that. Black was basically getting Zenkais, and Vegeta's speech sounds like he used his anger as motivation while training.

I feel like an explanation is warranted for this one.

Frost feels he needs poison to beat Piccolo easily, no need to expose himself if he could just one shot him. I think this one is pretty standard.

I'm talking about Goku. Vegeta obviously got stronger by going to the RoSaT.
I don't think anyone has surpassed Beerus yet. Not even SSB Gogeta.

Goku Black's last power up was indeed fueled by rage. He says so himself.

Yeah, Frost needed to cheat to beat Piccolo in both mediums so that sure is a Toriyama story beat. Anime made way more sense thanks to the Makankosappo punching way above it's weight.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

This was something that I noticed in both Kaboom and GreatSaiyaman123's power level lists. The fusions all have lower Super Saiyan multipliers than the normal Saiyans, whereas I did no such thing with mine. Why is that? Do you guys think that there'd be an in-universe reason for the fusions to have lower Super Saiyan multipliers?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm talking about Goku. Vegeta obviously got stronger by going to the RoSaT.
I don't think anyone has surpassed Beerus yet. Not even SSB Gogeta.

You mean when he fires that big Kamehameha on Zamasu? Nah. I don't think Toriyama was counting on these asspull moments when he said Goku and Vegeta could handle Zamasu together.

Really? What about Jiren and Broly being said to be stronger than him?

This was something that I noticed in both Kaboom and GreatSaiyaman123's power level lists. The fusions all have lower Super Saiyan multipliers than the normal Saiyans, whereas I did no such thing with mine. Why is that? Do you guys think that there'd be an in-universe reason for the fusions to have lower Super Saiyan multipliers?

It's something I always go back and forth with. Some people always felt that Base fusion should be stronger than the SSJ forms of the fusers, and DBS confirms that with their fusions. But Base Gotenks being multiple times stronger than SSJ Goten and still capping at around SSJ3 Goku with just SSJ, unless Goten is really weak. Here's a numerical example:

Spoiler:

Goku: 90
~ SSJ3: 36,000

Gotenks: 800
~ SSJ: 40,000

Fusion is said in guidebooks to be several times the powers of it's fusers. So SSJ Goten is 400 at best... I think in most lists that's on pair with Android 18, but SSJ Boys > 18 is shown in the story. And that's not even taking into account the fact I'm lowballing "several times" to a mere 2x.

Right now I think I might change my list to make SSJ3 Goku be over 50x SSJ Goten without making SSJ Goten so weak. It's controversial because it involves ignoring the official multipliers for SSJ2 and 3, but at least it doesn't create any inconsistencies in-story. I think Kaboom only recently started using these lower multipliers.

As far as in-universe explanation there isn't one, but DBS is somewhat inconsistent with their multipliers. Base Kefla is stronger than SSJG Goku, but is equals with SSJB Goku before breaking her limits. Base Gogeta is leagues above SSJB Goku and Vegeta, but as a SSJ he's barely above SSJ Broly, whose base form peaked below SSJB Goku. So nowadays I think the normal multipliers fit just fine in the Boo Saga if you accept the power bloat, but in DBS they might change just because the writers don't care.

[ZombieVito]

You mean when he fires that big Kamehameha on Zamasu? Nah. I don't think Toriyama was counting on these asspull moments when he said Goku and Vegeta could handle Zamasu together.

Really? What about Jiren and Broly being said to be stronger than him?

No. I mean the rage boost he gets in episode 61. After they return to the future in episode 63, Goku wants to fight Black again so my only explanation is that he retained the rage boost.

This never happened? Jiren was only said to be stronger than Belmond and Broly was said to maybe be stronger than Beerus but that's obviously not possible with the later arcs.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You mean when he fires that big Kamehameha on Zamasu? Nah. I don't think Toriyama was counting on these asspull moments when he said Goku and Vegeta could handle Zamasu together.

Really? What about Jiren and Broly being said to be stronger than him?

No. I mean the rage boost he gets in episode 61. After they return to the future in episode 63, Goku wants to fight Black again so my only explanation is that he retained the rage boost.

This never happened? Jiren was only said to be stronger than Belmond and Broly was said to maybe be stronger than Beerus but that's obviously not possible with the later arcs.

Goku always wants to fight. I don’t think that means anything.

But that’s in the manga. In the anime Whis says Belmond > Beerus and there’s no later arcs to contradict that.

[Hugo Boss]

This is actually one of those aspects in which manga and anime/movies follow different conventions. Jiren and Broly were implied to be stronger than Beerus, while Toyotaro continued to move the goalpost for Beerus, with him shown to be effortlessly more powerful than Vegeta during the events of the Granolah arc, at a time which Whis was saying that he wasn't aware of anyone stronger than Goku or Vegeta.

[ZombieVito]

Goku always wants to fight. I don’t think that means anything.

But that’s in the manga. In the anime Whis says Belmond > Beerus and there’s no later arcs to contradict that.

He didn't want to fight Super Boo.

But Beerus refutes that immediately.

[QuakingStar]

Btw, supposedly there is some pamphlet or novel passage that has a statement on Orange Piccolo saying he boasts physical strength above the Gods or something. Anybody know anything about that?

[GeekForFun]

What's the evidence for Supreme Kai being weaker than the base saiyans?