Non-thread-worthy discussions

[ZeroNeonix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfHBrhMM5bk

This video finally explains what DBZ did right and Super wrong with its animation and without comparing to the EPIC QUALITY ANIME STUDIOS.

Yeah... I have to agree. Super is a shadow of what Dragon Ball used to be. Outside of the movies, which are of better quality and writing.

[Shaddy]

There's something funny about using a seven year-old video to claim this about a show that's been off the air for five years.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Does that make the arguments invalid? I hope Daima is an improvement. So far it seems like it will be.

[FortuneSSJ]

Even though I prefer simpler designs, I really like Xeno Goku. Looks great and gives me Sun Wukong vibes.

[dbs fanboy]

Nowadays, i kinda think the Rof movie would have worked better with OG db's tone. It would make things like Freeza becoming so strong so quickly less annoying, specially if you have him doing sit ups, pushups and drinking plenty of juice.

Gohan being so weak would also play much better.

Have the movie be more comedic, but make it serious the moment Goku and Vegeta come to the picture or when Gohan gets one shotted.

[Koitsukai]

Tambourine, Piano, Drum, etc, are they considered namekians? is it racist to not consider them namekians?

[AliTheZombie13]

Tambourine, Piano, Drum, etc, are they considered namekians? is it racist to not consider them namekians?

I consider them Demon-People-Except-Your-Father-Was-Retconned-Into-An-Alien-So-You-Kinda-Don't-Exist-Anymore.

[ZeroNeonix]

Tambourine, Piano, Drum, etc, are they considered namekians? is it racist to not consider them namekians?

In Japanese culture, as I understand it, anyone who is consumed by evil can become a demon. Piccolo was the Demon King, and it appears that his children were affected by that, being born as demons. Junior is the only offspring of King Piccolo that looks Namekian. Probably because he was meant to be a vessel to continue his own existence.

So I don't think King Piccolo's children could be considered Namekians. If they were, then I'd have to ask why all of the other Namekians look like Piccolo and not...this:

[Majin Buu]

I consider them Demon-People-Except-Your-Father-Was-Retconned-Into-An-Alien-So-You-Kinda-Don't-Exist-Anymore.

Piccolo being an alien doesn't cancel out him being a demon. He's both.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It seems Piccolo being an alien all along is a western interpretation of the concept of his very incarnation. He's a demon because he's made out of literal evil. People with a western perspective remove all the Eastern Mysticism and Folkore because DB is DEE BEE ZEE! POWERS LEVELS INSTEAD OF KI!!! FAULCONER!!!

I know I am being mega unfair, and I actually love all the fans. I have hatred for Funimation, not them.

[AliTheZombie13]

It seems Piccolo being an alien all along is a western interpretation of the concept of his very incarnation. He's a demon because he's made out of literal evil. People with a western perspective remove all the Eastern Mysticism and Folkore because DB is DEE BEE ZEE! POWERS LEVELS INSTEAD OF KI!!! FAULCONER!!!

I know I am being mega unfair, and I actually love all the fans. I have hatred for Funimation, not them.

I didn't watch the dub, thank you.

But back to topic: Piccolo and by extension his children were all clearly meant to be of an entirely different race than "Slug people from outer space." None of his children look remotely Namekian and Toriyama flat-out admitted in interview he didn't mean neither Goku nor Piccolo to be aliens before coming up with the concept of Kami (God).

The fact that none of his children look like any Namekians presented ever since the retcon is a clear inconsistency in the story.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It seems Piccolo being an alien all along is a western interpretation of the concept of his very incarnation. He's a demon because he's made out of literal evil. People with a western perspective remove all the Eastern Mysticism and Folkore because DB is DEE BEE ZEE! POWERS LEVELS INSTEAD OF KI!!! FAULCONER!!!

I know I am being mega unfair, and I actually love all the fans. I have hatred for Funimation, not them.

I didn't watch the dub, thank you.

But back to topic: Piccolo and by extension his children were all clearly meant to be of an entirely different race than "Slug people from outer space." None of his children look remotely Namekian and Toriyama flat-out admitted in interview he didn't mean neither Goku nor Piccolo to be aliens before coming up with the concept of Kami (God).

The fact that none of his children look like any Namekians presented ever since the retcon is a clear inconsistency in the story.

If it helps I didnt mean people who didnt watch the dub and still had that confussion. That wasnt aimed at you at all. You are cool and so is every Faulconer fan. I just meant that Funimation didnt do a good job of keeping the eastern concepts such as eastern demons, incarnations of pure evil. And ironically there's proof that Toriyama planned the Namekian part very early on. Toriyama did intend for Piccolo to be an alien but ALSO a demon. To be honest I am hypocritical.I did grow with a dub and I did fall into the "Piccolo is an alien, not a demon." Piccolo is not actually Piccolo Daimao Senior's son but rather his REINCARNATION.

[Majin Buu]

But back to topic: Piccolo and by extension his children were all clearly meant to be of an entirely different race than "Slug people from outer space." None of his children look remotely Namekian and Toriyama flat-out admitted in interview he didn't mean neither Goku nor Piccolo to be aliens before coming up with the concept of Kami (God).

The fact that none of his children look like any Namekians presented ever since the retcon is a clear inconsistency in the story.

It's not a retcon though. Piccolo being revealed to have alien origins doesn't suddenly make him not a demon (It's becoming less evil that made Piccolo Jr. not a demon, not the reveal that he and his progenitors are actually from space).

It's funny that you mention "Slug people from outer space" since the original Japanese version of DBZ Movie 4 has Slug and his henchmen refer to themselves as "Mazoku" (demon clan) despite clearly being space aliens (and galactic conquers at that). Not to mention Garlic Jr. and his henchmen being demons that explicitly come from another planet (The Makyo Star).

Then there's Majin Buu being a demonic magical being that also comes from space, technically making him an alien too.

Being an alien and being a demon have never been mutually exclusive.

[AliTheZombie13]

But back to topic: Piccolo and by extension his children were all clearly meant to be of an entirely different race than "Slug people from outer space." None of his children look remotely Namekian and Toriyama flat-out admitted in interview he didn't mean neither Goku nor Piccolo to be aliens before coming up with the concept of Kami (God).

The fact that none of his children look like any Namekians presented ever since the retcon is a clear inconsistency in the story.

It's not a retcon though. Piccolo being revealed to have alien origins doesn't suddenly make him not a demon (It's becoming less evil that made Piccolo Jr. not a demon, not the reveal that he and his progenitors are actually from space).

It's funny that you mention "Slug people from outer space" since the original Japanese version of DBZ Movie 4 has Slug and his henchmen refer to themselves as "Mazoku" (demon clan) despite clearly being space aliens (and galactic conquers at that). Not to mention Garlic Jr. and his henchmen being demons that explicitly come from another planet (The Makyo Star).

Then there's Majin Buu being a demonic magical being that also comes from space, technically making him an alien too.

Being an alien and being a demon have never been mutually exclusive.

OK, good... Now explain why none of Piccolo's children look Namekian.

[Majin Buu]

I always figured he simply makes them look like how he wants them to look. He's a demon king so naturally he's gonna make his minion offspring look demonic. Ma Junior is his successor so he made Ma Junior look like himself.

[ZeroNeonix]

But back to topic: Piccolo and by extension his children were all clearly meant to be of an entirely different race than "Slug people from outer space." None of his children look remotely Namekian and Toriyama flat-out admitted in interview he didn't mean neither Goku nor Piccolo to be aliens before coming up with the concept of Kami (God).

The fact that none of his children look like any Namekians presented ever since the retcon is a clear inconsistency in the story.

It's not a retcon though. Piccolo being revealed to have alien origins doesn't suddenly make him not a demon (It's becoming less evil that made Piccolo Jr. not a demon, not the reveal that he and his progenitors are actually from space).

It's funny that you mention "Slug people from outer space" since the original Japanese version of DBZ Movie 4 has Slug and his henchmen refer to themselves as "Mazoku" (demon clan) despite clearly being space aliens (and galactic conquers at that). Not to mention Garlic Jr. and his henchmen being demons that explicitly come from another planet (The Makyo Star).

Then there's Majin Buu being a demonic magical being that also comes from space, technically making him an alien too.

Being an alien and being a demon have never been mutually exclusive.

OK, good... Now explain why none of Piccolo's children look Namekian.

King Piccolo was a demon when he made them, so his children were born demons. He had the ability to create normal Namekian offspringe, like Junior, but he chose to make demons to serve him. Also, pretty sure I remember Drum getting a reference in Super, so they're still canon.

[AliTheZombie13]

King Piccolo was a demon when he made them, so his children were born demons. He had the ability to create normal Namekian offspringe, like Junior, but he chose to make demons to serve him. Also, pretty sure I remember Drum getting a reference in Super, so they're still canon.

They're definitely still canon, but the "he's a demon in spirit so his children looked different" explanation feels lazy.
The out-of-universe explanation will always be, Piccolo was never meant to be an alien before Kami was conceptualized.

[Majin Buu]

They're definitely still canon, but the "he's a demon in spirit so his children looked different" explanation feels lazy.

I don't see what's "lazy" about it, it makes sense to me. Sometimes a simple explanation works best.

[Cure Dragon 255]

King Piccolo was a demon when he made them, so his children were born demons. He had the ability to create normal Namekian offspringe, like Junior, but he chose to make demons to serve him. Also, pretty sure I remember Drum getting a reference in Super, so they're still canon.

They're definitely still canon, but the "he's a demon in spirit so his children looked different" explanation feels lazy.
The out-of-universe explanation will always be, Piccolo was never meant to be an alien before Kami was conceptualized.

And the "It was all a retcon" IS NOT easy? That's about the laziest thing I've ever seen! Just about ANYTHING can be explained away like that.

[Lukmendes]

It seems Piccolo being an alien all along is a western interpretation of the concept of his very incarnation. He's a demon because he's made out of literal evil. People with a western perspective remove all the Eastern Mysticism and Folkore because DB is DEE BEE ZEE! POWERS LEVELS INSTEAD OF KI!!! FAULCONER!!!

I know I am being mega unfair, and I actually love all the fans. I have hatred for Funimation, not them.

I mean even without Funimation's influence I still thought of Piccolo as just an alien and not a demon, to understand that being an alien doesn't stop him from being a demon you kinda have to know eastern folklore to understand that such things are spiritual, and not a different species, since DB doesn't really explain this. The one time that is talked about something like that to explain why Piccolo was different was to explain why Raditz went to the afterlife instead of agonizing for eternity, a detail that is generally not remembered, probably because the "agonize for eternity" detail had more emphasis in vanilla DB, and in DBZ it feels like a throwaway line for those who don't know how much of a big deal what Kami is saying is.

The lack of consistency really doesn't help, since King Piccolo is the only case of a character who became a demon by being pure evil, but Toriyama tends to make villains intro pure evil, and Freeza most obviously should be a demon, but isn't, so this can make King Piccolo being an alien all along feel like a much bigger retcon than it really is (And it's still a noticeable one).

And ironically there's proof that Toriyama planned the Namekian part very early on.

Yeah, at the latest that was the case during the 23rd tournament, when Kami and Piccolo speak to each other in another language, which is used as a plot point before Namek saga, since speaking that language is needed to pilot Kami's ship, and Bulma even says it's the same language Kami and Piccolo spoke back in the 23rd tournament.

I always figured he simply makes them look like how he wants them to look. He's a demon king so naturally he's gonna make his minion offspring look demonic. Ma Junior is his successor so he made Ma Junior look like himself.

That'd have to be a demon exclusive power, either that or Namekians can do that but prefer to all look the same lol.