Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Not sure if Gohan and Cell are meant to be close. Gohan still tanked that punch in chapter 99.

I was about to say this.

I guess Cell Max's attack had the bigger amp. Still doesn't explain how base Goten and Trunks managed to move him but whatever. It's Toyo being Toyo.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Uchida, the manga editor, ranks Broly above Goku, despite Whis saying Goku and Vegeta were the strongest warriors he knew about. This is a good example of what I talked about earlier.

But the actual writer himself who knows better than some editor said directly that Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were the three strongest characters.

Something a character within the series also pretty much said.

The editor can think whatever he'd like. He mentioned Broly right next to the writer of the series who then made it clear who the top people are. Broly wasn't even acknowledged.

[Almighty Majin]

The way I see it is:

Spoiler:

Full Power Broly (SH) [I'm just assuming here that whatever training he's been doing on Beerus' planet yielded him enough of a boost to pass Granolah and Gas post-wish.]
Gohan Beast ~ Cell Max
UI Goku (SH) ~ UE Vegeta (SH) ~ Orange Piccolo
Gas
Granolah ~ UE Vegeta ~ UI Goku (Granolah)
Full Power Broly (Post-Broly Movie) [He likely got a recovery boost from the Gogeta fight. Goku did not fight this version of Broly so he doesn't count when Goku mentions Moro being the strongest.]
UI Goku (Moro) ~ Planet Moro
Moro (Seven-Three Absorbed)
Prime Moro ~ Full Power Broly
Goku UI - Sign (Moro) ~ SSJBE Vegeta (Moro)

[Kazuya Mishima]

Vegeta was already considered a top three character prior to achieving Ultra Ego so he would have to be above Broly from the movie even as Evolved.

[Hugo Boss]

Uchida, the manga editor, ranks Broly above Goku, despite Whis saying Goku and Vegeta were the strongest warriors he knew about. This is a good example of what I talked about earlier.

But the actual writer himself who knows better than some editor said directly that Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were the three strongest characters.

Something a character within the series also pretty much said.

The editor can think whatever he'd like. He mentioned Broly right next to the writer of the series who then made it clear who the top people are. Broly wasn't even acknowledged.

That reinforces what I was saying though. Toyotaro doesn’t consider Broly stronger than Goku from Granolah arc, but Uchida considers Broly stronger than Goku. So, they must be talking about different versions of Goku there. At least, Broly is stronger than Goku in Super Hero arc.

[Mr Baggins]

Yeah. If the Super Hero arc didn't nip this whole quibble in the bud, I literally don't know what else to tell some of you. Sorry it didn't go your way, I guess.

Don't wanna take Uchida's word for it? Okay: Toyotaro has gone on record countless times to say that Toriyama is a bigger authority than him when it comes to the series. His stance on Broly is pretty firm.

There's no debate to be had here.

Cell Max quickly catches up to Gohan after that though, when he powered-up that giant ki bomb.

A good way to read that scene, I think, is to interpret the ki bomb as Cell Max's condensed, amplified power rather than a representation of his usual fighting strength per se. When he's not focusing all of his energy into a big ball of death like that, he's probably getting whooped by Gohan.

[QuakingStar]

I don't think that was a power thing, Special Beam Canon is meant to pierce and Gohan wasn't so sure his was that good. I think Gohan just hasn't mastered it to the level Piccolo has so its piercing ability wasn't as great.

Also, Cell Max seemed to finally be controlling himself he noticed Gohan was a serious problem and then charged his greatest attack controlling his power to do so. It was an all or nothing attack and somebody who is still going berserker likely wouldn't be able to think clearly enough to do that.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Honestly, it’s better to just ignore Broly. He never even does anything! Write him out and what do you lose? Nothing. Toriyama probably has no idea what to make of him.

I want to agree that Broly was totally being ignored in the Moro and Granolah Sagas, Toyotaro either wasn’t allowed to use Broly or wasn’t interested, but dismissing the contradictory lines as bad writting feels so wrong.

I like the idea of everyone who’s supposedly GoD level being on the same tier, but 73 Moro (toughest guy Goku’s ever fought) is a bit confusing. Would Moro break his hand punching Jiren? Is MUI so strong that even a trained UIO can’t catch up?

And on UI Goku being weakened post Moro, that’s sort of suggested throughout the Granolah Saga, but it’s also contradicted by Toyotaro saying UE Vegeta ~ UI Goku. Does Vegeta only match a weakened Goku?

[Torus silvè]

Honestly, it’s better to just ignore Broly. He never even does anything! Write him out and what do you lose? Nothing. Toriyama probably has no idea what to make of him.

I want to agree that Broly was totally being ignored in the Moro and Granolah Sagas, Toyotaro either wasn’t allowed to use Broly or wasn’t interested, but dismissing the contradictory lines as bad writting feels so wrong.

I like the idea of everyone who’s supposedly GoD level being on the same tier, but 73 Moro (toughest guy Goku’s ever fought) is a bit confusing. Would Moro break his hand punching Jiren? Is MUI so strong that even a trained UIO can’t catch up?

And on UI Goku being weakened post Moro, that’s sort of suggested throughout the Granolah Saga, but it’s also contradicted by Toyotaro saying UE Vegeta ~ UI Goku. Does Vegeta only match a weakened Goku?

Its time to accept the new times. V jumps new guide states that Frieza is closing in on the level of the gods of destruction.

The Gods of destruction still scale above Goku and Vegeta.

https://twitter.com/DbsHype/status/1737 ... vtniw&s=19

[SupremeKai25]

Beerus remains the endgame. The entire DBS series is built around the premise that Goku needs to become the worthy rival of Beerus, this will happen only in the final arc.

Most characters in Super can be considered relative to the general GoD tier, but not to Beerus. As we are shown with Sidra, the GoDs are not all equal in strength. Some are very weak (Sidra), others are very strong (Beerus).

Characters like Vegito Blue/Fused Zamasu/Jiren/Kefla/Broly/Moro/Granolah/etc. are all in the general "GoD tier", aka they could probably defeat the weakest GoD Sidra.

Indeed, we saw Anime Golden Frieza counter Sidra's Hakai ball, and Manga Jiren is confirmed stronger than Belmod (who is one of the more unimpressive GoDs).

But the strongest GoDs, like Beerus, remain at the top. Beerus will be surpassed only for the final arc, when Goku will finally become the worthy rival/rematch and the series will be allowed to rest.

Literally the entire premise of DBS is that Goku needs to reach the worthy level to rematch Beerus. Don't forget that. When Goku is getting close to Beerus, we will be explicitly and unambiguously be told so, followed by a final rematch between the two.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Yeah. If the Super Hero arc didn't nip this whole quibble in the bud, I literally don't know what else to tell some of you. Sorry it didn't go your way, I guess.

It's the mangas way. That's what was written. Moro was said to be tougher than Broly. Nothing in the manga has ever suggested Broly is any better than that.

There's no debate to be had here.

I know because Toriyama's opinion doesn't apply to the manga. He can be stronger than Cell Max in the movies.

[Thani]

I don't think that was a power thing, Special Beam Canon is meant to pierce and Gohan wasn't so sure his was that good. I think Gohan just hasn't mastered it to the level Piccolo has so its piercing ability wasn't as great.

But Piccolo immediately corrected him by saying it was "magnificent", so it was indeed that good.

Its time to accept the new times. V jumps new guide states that Frieza is closing in on the level of the gods of destruction.

The Gods of destruction still scale above Goku and Vegeta.

https://twitter.com/DbsHype/status/1737 ... vtniw&s=19

Huh. That's for sure a weird statement.

[QuakingStar]

Regardless, once Gohan pushed harder with the Special Beam Canon it pierced the orb. The others attacking Cell Max realistically wouldn't have changed much I think it was just another nostalgia bait moment especially when right beforehand Cell Max was terrified of Gohan and then again terrified of his Special Beam Canon being charged up.

[Kazuya Mishima]

They already said Cell Max was weakened after Gamma 2's attack so Gohan didn't best peak Cell Max.

[Hugo Boss]

Its time to accept the new times. V jumps new guide states that Frieza is closing in on the level of the gods of destruction.

The Gods of destruction still scale above Goku and Vegeta.

https://twitter.com/DbsHype/status/1737 ... vtniw&s=19

Nice to have a confirmation, I think? There are a lot of what-if videos about Freeza challenging Beerus in the internet, so this might be something to be explored later. He is very aware that he can’t get carried away with gods intervening on his plans.

[Koitsukai]

So, is it safe to say now that the Oracle was talking about Freeza?
And if he is only closing in on the GoDs, then what did they mean with shifting the balance of the universe, like it was an extremely bad thing? Just regaining the N°1 spot?

[Miracles]

Yeah, the Oracle was talking about Freeza back in the Granolah arc. The title even says the universe strongest appears when Freeza diced up Gas, Goku and Vegeta. Whis vague statement in the end of that arc about Freeza perhaps being the strongest or another in the universe emerging is in step with Whis stating at the start of the Granolah arc; that you don't know when the strongest bad guy may show up. After Goku asked Whis if there is anyone stronger than he and Vegeta.

This is in line with the theme of the Granolah arc too, when Vegeta and Monaito told Granolah that titles are only momentary. Literally a flash in time and that you don't know what tomorrow may bring. Which is why the Granolah arc consistently ends with Whis stating maybe the other strongest emerged instead of Freeza. Who would that be? The one consistently stated to be better [more potential] than Goku and Vegeta in Gohan. Enter Super Hero arc.

Right now the order goes...

1.Gohan [stated by Toriyama himself to be truly strongest or that it is said [History of DB].
2.Freeza [was number one][
3.Vegeta [Just beat Goku using Jiren's technique]
4.Goku [Was strongest after pounding Gas with True UI]
5.Piccolo [Stated to be on par with Goku and Vegeta]
6.Broly [Not said to be among the best in the universe when Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were competing for top three in universe]
6.Cell Max [Current Villain]

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, the Oracle was talking about Freeza back in the Granolah arc. The title even says the universe strongest appears when Freeza diced up Gas, Goku and Vegeta. Whis vague statement in the end of that arc about Freeza perhaps being the strongest or another in the universe emerging is in step with Whis stating at the start of the Granolah arc; that you don't know when the strongest bad guy may show up. After Goku asked Whis if there is anyone stronger than he and Vegeta.

This is in line with the theme of the Granolah arc too, when Vegeta and Monaito told Granolah that titles are only momentary. Literally a flash in time and that you don't know what tomorrow may bring. Which is why the Granolah arc consistently ends with Whis stating maybe the other strongest emerged instead of Freeza. Who would that be? The one consistently stated to be better [more potential] than Goku and Vegeta in Gohan. Enter Super Hero arc.

Right now the order goes...

1.Gohan [stated by Toriyama himself to be truly strongest or that it is said [History of DB].
2.Freeza [was number one][
3.Vegeta [Just beat Goku using Jiren's technique]
4.Goku [Was strongest after pounding Gas with True UI]
5.Piccolo [Stated to be on par with Goku and Vegeta]
6.Broly [Not said to be among the best in the universe when Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were competing for top three in universe]
6.Cell Max [Current Villain]

I would personally put Broly in number 3 based on Goku and Vegeta's reactions in chapter 93. Sure, they mention Broly destroying the planet if he snapped but if they were truly superior than him then I'm sure they can put him down before that happens.

P.S. Seeing Piccolo up there with the top dogs of the universe really makes me happy. It's something I wanted for a very long time. Hopefully he and Gohan don't get forgotten again.

[Mr Baggins]

It's subject to change, but this would be my guesstimate just based on current information:

1. Black Freeza – effortlessly oneshots Goku and Vegeta simultaneously, V Jump says his power is immeasurable, still generally framed as greatest threat by official materials.

2. Full Power Super Saiyan Broly – introductory movie compares him to Beerus, Toriyama implies he'd be the last line of defense against a completed Cell Max, Uchida puts him over Goku, V Jump guide that covers the Granolah arc puts him over Goku, SH arc implies he's far above Goku/Vegeta.

3. Gohan Beast – stated by Toriyama to be the strongest "or so it is said" (with that quoted part leaving room for ambiguity by calling it hearsay), much stronger than Cell Max but had to expend effort into piercing his best attack, not acknowledged by Toriyama when discussing hypothetical completed Cell Max.

4. Cell Max – said to possibly have been too much even for Goku and Vegeta, stronger than Orange Piccolo who was said to be relative to Goku and Vegeta.

5/6. Ultra Instinct Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta – always one-upping each other; Vegeta won recent base vs. base match by a hair, but Goku might still have the advantage in their strongest forms.

7. Orange Piccolo – ballparked by Toriyama to be on par with "Goku and co.", meaning he's probably close to them in power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think I agree with Mr Baggins, though it's very confusing how Broly might be stronger than Beerus but Freeza is definitely below Beerus. Handwaving stuff like Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in the Granolah Saga is also tough, I guess Broly doesn't count because he can't transform at will, as silly as it sounds.

I guess Jiren would still be in the top of the chian? He's stronger than a GoD, Black Freeza isn't. Or was he just better in combat ability? Or Beerus > Freeza > Jiren > Belmond?