Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If Toppo is saying Jiren surpasses Belmond in power level, then we’re back to step one.

[Thani]

If Toppo is saying Jiren surpasses Belmond in power level, then we’re back to step one.

Indeed we are hahaha

[Almighty Majin]

Okay this is the revised interpretation:

Spoiler:

Beerus ~ Black Freeza ~ SSJ Full Power Broly (Hypothetical Controlled Power) ~ Cell Max (Mind Program Complete)
Cell Max ~ Gohan Beast ~ SSJ Full Power Broly (SH) ~ Jiren (SH)
TUI Goku (SH) ~ UE Vegeta (SH) ~ Orange Piccolo
Gas
Granolah ~ TUI Goku (Granolah) ~ UE Vegeta (Granolah)
SSJ Full Power Broly (Post-Broly movie) ~ Limit Breaker Jiren (full stamina and focused)
Planet Moro ~ UI Goku (Moro)
Seven-Three Moro
Prime Moro
UI - Sign Goku (Moro) ~ SSJBE Vegeta (Moro)
SSJ Full Power Broly
Limit Breaker Jiren (exhausted and unfocused) ~ UI Goku (ToP) ~ SSJ Broly
Jiren (full power) ~ UI - Sign Goku (ToP)

Some justifications:

Spoiler:

Placing Broly above Moro: Broly likely got a recovery boost after his fight with Gogeta. Since Goku did not fight this version of Broly, he cannot be included in Goku's statement of Moro being the toughest opponent at that point. Thus, Broly (Post-movie) > Moro > Broly (Broly movie).

Placing Broly above Gas: I am assuming here that whatever training Broly has been doing on Beerus' planet boosted him above Granolah and Gas post-wish.

Placing Jiren above Moro: It's pretty clear now that Jiren's power is entirely dependent on his ability to focus his power to an incredible degree (I will refer to this technique as Ultra Focus now). By the end of the ToP, Jiren was exhausted and unfocused so he could not use the full extent of his Ultra Focus ability in his limit broken state. A limits surpassed Jiren at full stamina and full utilization of Ultra Focus would essentially be way above what he displayed at the end of ToP.

Placing Jiren above Gas: The previous justification could still apply and you can just say that post-ToP Jiren was always stronger than Granolah and Gas even post-wish on account of not being included in the wish due to being in U11. Otherwise, there is no way that Jiren hasn't been training and honing his skill. Super Hero is 2 years later, Jiren definitely got stronger at this point.

[QuakingStar]

Maybe Vegeta is referring to everyone currently as of Age 782-783 which is SH. So at THAT point in time Jiren, Broly, and Frieza are not TOO MUCH stronger than Goku and Vegeta physically and maybe even power level wise BUT they wield their powers better when USING them?

Another thing to think about is that while the GoD's power are always talked about with how strong they are, that level of power being referred to likely does not even include when they use Ultra Ego.

Seems Beerus never used Ultra Ego around Goku or Vegeta, going by how Vegeta didn't know about it and when he showed Vegeta he said Vegeta should copy it.

So I think Jiren in raw power level was above base Belmod, when using his mastery of "Ultra Focus" as another called it he was probably just barely above Ultra Ego Belmod and against UI Goku he lost his cool in the ToP causing him to lose his focus. Broly at SSFP was probably comparable to base Beerus, but Ultra Ego Beerus would wipe him out no question. This is probably why it seems like the GoDs are moving goal posts.

[Thani]

Maybe Vegeta is referring to everyone currently as of Age 782-783 which is SH. So at THAT point in time Jiren, Broly, and Frieza are not TOO MUCH stronger than Goku and Vegeta physically and maybe even power level wise BUT they wield their powers better when USING them?

That's pretty much the gist of the dialogue, imo

[Torus silvè]

If Toppo is saying Jiren surpasses Belmond in power level, then we’re back to step one.

Have a read of my new post. I believe I address all arguements and the scale of power.

This explains why Jiren is still stronger than Gods of destruction and why all the scaling is consistent now.

http://aminoapps.com/p/zwr0rd

[Torus silvè]

Maybe Vegeta is referring to everyone currently as of Age 782-783 which is SH. So at THAT point in time Jiren, Broly, and Frieza are not TOO MUCH stronger than Goku and Vegeta physically and maybe even power level wise BUT they wield their powers better when USING them?

That's pretty much the gist of the dialogue, imo

Maybe Vegeta is referring to everyone currently as of Age 782-783 which is SH. So at THAT point in time Jiren, Broly, and Frieza are not TOO MUCH stronger than Goku and Vegeta physically and maybe even power level wise BUT they wield their powers better when USING them?

Okay this is the revised interpretation:

If Toppo is saying Jiren surpasses Belmond in power level, then we’re back to step one.

Indeed we are hahaha

Give me your thoughts on my arguement

http://aminoapps.com/p/zwr0rd

[Hugo Boss]

This essay is a letter to Jiren fans, but ultimately one of its fundamentals is the data that Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas, Freeza, Goku and Vegeta have the same physical strength and perform differently only because of the way they wield their power, which in my perspective doesn’t make sense at this point. How can Broly, for example, attack from a relaxed state better than Goku and Vegeta? If anything, Broly lacks the most in this aspect, making the explanation disconnected from reality.

By the way, Vegeta basically reiterates what Karin, Popo and Kaio have taught Goku long before, as showcased in chapter #34, when Roshi lectures that fighting performance was largely influenced by their ability to move in a calm state, which later culminates in Ultra Instinct. So, it’s kinda weird that Goku doesn’t remember what Vegeta is talking about there. Even weirder is claiming that those foes were better at it than Goku now that he has completed Ultra Instinct, or did he not?

Anyway, for me, it makes sense that Jiren is a specialist in this art, but not the others. Broly is straight up stronger than Goku and Vegeta in the traditional sense, they can’t even entertain the idea of fighting him a little bit seriously. Moro is pretty much the definition of power house, he never even trained let alone learned the quirks of efficient motion. Gas relied on sheer power and weapons to overcome his opponents, sometimes even tooking damage on purpose. Black Freeza perhaps is the only one besides Jiren that might have learned this ability. He said he needed a power-up, but notably he relaxes after dealing huge blows.

Although I admit Jiren being stronger than Freeza is something that I can see Toriyama commenting without a second thought, if he is not being checked by Toyotaro or anyone that works alongside him.

[Miracles]

In the DBS Broly movie Vegeta states that Broly studied how to use his power in base mode. Before Broly lost control with the great ape mindset. I'm assuming Toyotaro included Broly in the list due to the statement from Toriyama's film...

[Torus silvè]

This essay is a letter to Jiren fans, but ultimately one of its fundamentals is the data that Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas, Freeza, Goku and Vegeta have the same physical strength and perform differently only because of the way they wield their power, which in my perspective doesn’t make sense at this point. How can Broly, for example, attack from a relaxed state better than Goku and Vegeta? If anything, Broly lacks the most in this aspect, making the explanation disconnected from reality.

By the way, Vegeta basically reiterates what Karin, Popo and Kaio have taught Goku long before, as showcased in chapter #34, when Roshi lectures that fighting performance was largely influenced by their ability to move in a calm state, which later culminates in Ultra Instinct. So, it’s kinda weird that Goku doesn’t remember what Vegeta is talking about there. Even weirder is claiming that those foes were better at it than Goku now that he has completed Ultra Instinct, or did he not?

Anyway, for me, it makes sense that Jiren is a specialist in this art, but not the others. Broly is straight up stronger than Goku and Vegeta in the traditional sense, they can’t even entertain the idea of fighting him a little bit seriously. Moro is pretty much the definition of power house, he never even trained let alone learned the quirks of efficient motion. Gas relied on sheer power and weapons to overcome his opponents, sometimes even tooking damage on purpose. Black Freeza perhaps is the only one besides Jiren that might have learned this ability. He said he needed a power-up, but notably he relaxes after dealing huge blows.

Although I admit Jiren being stronger than Freeza is something that I can see Toriyama commenting without a second thought, if he is not being checked by Toyotaro or anyone that works alongside him.

The SH quote goes like this.

Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza. I was shown inferior to l these foes.

We have trained outselves to a point where THEY ARE JUST A STEP ABOVE US.

Vegeta is saying that they have trained themselves to a point where they are roughly similar in strength NOW.

Broly doesn't make sense in past tense. So obviously its refering to present tense then.

Btw this statement implies that "physically" quote on quote, Goku has ONLY JUST cought up to Moro. However we know that even in the Moro arc, that Goku had a better body than Moro, as Moro couldn't handle ultra instinct and yet Goku could.

So itw obviously referring to their overall power level. Nit just their body and control.

[Almighty Majin]

Taking the Ultra Ego state into account for the Gods of Destruction, I could make a few tweaks...

Spoiler:

UI & UE Beerus
UE Beerus ~ Black Freeza ~ SSJ Full Power Broly (Hypothetical Controlled Power) ~ Cell Max (Mind Program Complete)
Cell Max ~ Gohan Beast ~ SSJ Full Power Broly (SH) ~ Jiren (SH)
TUI Goku (SH) ~ UE Vegeta (SH) ~ Orange Piccolo ~ UE Belmod
Gas
Granolah ~ TUI Goku (Granolah) ~ UE Vegeta (Granolah)
SSJ Full Power Broly (Post-Broly movie) ~ Limit Breaker Jiren (full stamina and focused) ~ UI Goku (Granolah)
Planet Moro ~ UI Goku (Moro)
Seven-Three Moro
Prime Moro
UI - Sign Goku (Moro) ~ SSJBE Vegeta (Moro)
SSJ Full Power Broly ~ Beerus
Limit Breaker Jiren (exhausted and unfocused) ~ UI Goku (ToP) ~ SSJ Broly
Jiren (full power) ~ UI - Sign Goku (ToP)
Belmod

[Hugo Boss]

In the DBS Broly movie Vegeta states that Broly studied how to use his power in base mode. Before Broly lost control with the great ape mindset. I'm assuming Toyotaro included Broly in the list due to the statement from Toriyama's film...

I don’t see the connection between this scene and what Vegeta talks about though, specially when in chapter #92 Goku says Broly is starting to get the hang of fighting with a cool head, on which Vegeta further elaborated in chapter #93. Basically Vegeta is portrayed as the best student in that class, while Broly is that rookie that needs advice and Goku has mediocre knowledge. Broly can’t be a master at the stuff that he is being told to work on.

The SH quote goes like this.

Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza. I was shown inferior to l these foes.

We have trained outselves to a point where THEY ARE JUST A STEP ABOVE US.

Vegeta is saying that they have trained themselves to a point where they are roughly similar in strength NOW.

Broly doesn't make sense in past tense. So obviously its refering to present tense then.

Btw this statement implies that "physically" quote on quote, Goku has ONLY JUST cought up to Moro. However we know that even in the Moro arc, that Goku had a better body than Moro, as Moro couldn't handle ultra instinct and yet Goku could.

So itw obviously referring to their overall power level. Nit just their body and control.

I’m not sure what you mean by past~present tense, but I’m talking about what Vegeta says in the manga. In the movie, Vegeta says Jiren wasn’t much stronger than them, but used his power more efficiently. In the manga, Vegeta says he and Goku are physically on par with all their recent foes since long, but need to use their power better.

It’s interesting to note that Herms also brought up the fact that Vegeta said something similar in episode #30 from the Super anime, after they have defeated Golden Freeza. So, it doesn’t seem like Vegeta is suggesting they have just reached that physical limit, this is something they have done sometime around Champa arc and needed other means to keep evolving.

At any rate, I think Toyotaro wanted to throw a nod to DBS manga-only content, but ended up making the scene even more confusing for the reader. It wasn’t the best decision in my opinion. I would actually have removed the stuff about Goku being oblivious to meditation and about all those recent foes having the same quirk that Jiren has. They have nothing to learn from Broly, Moro and Gas in the “relaxed” fighting style. I wonder if Freeza is capable of that either.

[Torus silvè]

I’m not sure what you mean by past~present tense, but I’m talking about what Vegeta says in the manga. In the movie, Vegeta says Jiren wasn’t much stronger than them, but used his power more efficiently. In the manga, Vegeta says he and Goku are physically on par with all their recent foes since long, but need to use their power better.

It’s interesting to note that Herms also brought up the fact that Vegeta said something similar in episode #30 from the Super anime, after they have defeated Golden Freeza. So, it doesn’t seem like Vegeta is suggesting they have just reached that physical limit, this is something they have done sometime around Champa arc and needed other means to keep evolving.

At any rate, I think Toyotaro wanted to throw a nod to DBS manga-only content, but ended up making the scene even more confusing for the reader. It wasn’t the best decision in my opinion. I would actually have removed the stuff about Goku being oblivious to meditation and about all those recent foes having the same quirk that Jiren has. They have nothing to learn from Broly, Moro and Gas in the “relaxed” fighting style. I wonder if Freeza is capable of that either.

Essentially, this statement means Goku and Vegeta have trained themselves to a point where Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza and slightly above them right now.

It doesn't make sense to say this is referring to their physical body alone, since Goku already had a better Physical body than Moro in the Moro arc, hence why Goku could handle UI and Moro couldn't.

Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas + Frieza > TUI Goku and UE vegeta right now.

[Hugo Boss]

Essentially, this statement means Goku and Vegeta have trained themselves to a point where Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza and slightly above them right now.

It doesn't make sense to say this is referring to their physical body alone, since Goku already had a better Physical body than Moro in the Moro arc, hence why Goku could handle UI and Moro couldn't.

Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas + Frieza > TUI Goku and UE vegeta right now.

You are missing the fact that the movie and manga have slightly different approaches to that scene. Herms made an entire thread about it.

In the manga, Goku thinks he needs to train his body more, but Vegeta figured that they are already equal to all these foes in that aspect, and since long.

The movie is the version that mentions that Jiren’s battle power wasn’t too far off from Goku and Vegeta’s, which holds another meaning, but the exact reason behind his overwhelming difference in strength is the same as in the manga.

So, Jiren’s battle power that they sense largely increases the moment he attacks and swiftly gets back to normal when he relaxes. Basically, the same thing that Goku does against the Ginyu Force and what Piccolo reiterates to Dr. Gero when he misread his strength.

I guess the conclusion would still come down to Goku and Vegeta being inferior to Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Freeza, but not exactly in the way that you are thinking.

[Torus silvè]

Essentially, this statement means Goku and Vegeta have trained themselves to a point where Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza and slightly above them right now.

It doesn't make sense to say this is referring to their physical body alone, since Goku already had a better Physical body than Moro in the Moro arc, hence why Goku could handle UI and Moro couldn't.

Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas + Frieza > TUI Goku and UE vegeta right now.

You are missing the fact that the movie and manga have slightly different approaches to that scene. Herms made an entire thread about it.

In the manga, Goku thinks he needs to train his body more, but Vegeta figured that they are already equal to all these foes in that aspect, and since long.

The movie is the version that mentions that Jiren’s battle power wasn’t too far off from Goku and Vegeta’s, which holds another meaning, but the exact reason behind his overwhelming difference in strength is the same as in the manga.

So, Jiren’s battle power that they sense largely increases the moment he attacks and swiftly gets back to normal when he relaxes. Basically, the same thing that Goku does against the Ginyu Force and what Piccolo reiterates to Dr. Gero when he misread his strength.

I guess the conclusion would still come down to Goku and Vegeta being inferior to Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Freeza, but not exactly in the way that you are thinking.

I'm saying, training their body is just them training to get stronger anyway.

They have been training physically their entire lives. Weight Training, Gravity training, Sparring, shadow boxing. These are all methods of strengthening the body.

"Whats the difference"

"We need to train more"

This is straight up just them saying that they have trained themselves to a point where their power levels are slightly bellow Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza and now the only difference remaining is the Ki control aspect of it.

[Miracles]

In the DBS Broly movie Vegeta states that Broly studied how to use his power in base mode. Before Broly lost control with the great ape mindset. I'm assuming Toyotaro included Broly in the list due to the statement from Toriyama's film...

I don’t see the connection between this scene and what Vegeta talks about though, specially when in chapter #92 Goku says Broly is starting to get the hang of fighting with a cool head, on which Vegeta further elaborated in chapter #93. Basically Vegeta is portrayed as the best student in that class, while Broly is that rookie that needs advice and Goku has mediocre knowledge. Broly can’t be a master at the stuff that he is being told to work on.

Broly was fighting Goku fine in base mode in CH. 92 just like he was fighting Vegeta in base back in the Broly movie without snapping into a rage. It isn't until Broly goes white eyed and green aura that he loses it due to the great ape power. He loses all sense of himself. Broly has to control the mind of the great ape.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm saying, training their body is just them training to get stronger anyway.

They have been training physically their entire lives. Weight Training, Gravity training, Sparring, shadow boxing. These are all methods of strengthening the body.

"Whats the difference"

"We need to train more"

This is straight up just them saying that they have trained themselves to a point where their power levels are slightly bellow Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza and now the only difference remaining is the Ki control aspect of it.

You are confusing power levels with physical strength. Physical strength factors in power levels, but it isn’t all there is to them, far from that.

In physical strength, Goku and Vegeta are equal to those foes for quite a long time, confirmed by Vegeta. They won’t get physically stronger even if they train for more 10 years. Their power levels depend on other aspects though, specially on ki.

Gas is a good example of how physical strength doesn’t always translates to power level. His power level was increasing despite his body getting weaker.

The ki control aspect that Vegeta talks about is exactly making your opponents misread your power level, but it truly becomes far greater in moments of attack.

[Torus silvè]

I'm saying, training their body is just them training to get stronger anyway.

They have been training physically their entire lives. Weight Training, Gravity training, Sparring, shadow boxing. These are all methods of strengthening the body.

"Whats the difference"

"We need to train more"

This is straight up just them saying that they have trained themselves to a point where their power levels are slightly bellow Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza and now the only difference remaining is the Ki control aspect of it.

You are confusing power levels with physical strength. Physical strength factors in power levels, but it isn’t all there is to them, far from that.

In physical strength, Goku and Vegeta are equal to those foes for quite a long time, confirmed by Vegeta. They won’t get physically stronger even if they train for more 10 years. Their power levels depend on other aspects though, specially on ki.

Gas is a good example of how physical strength doesn’t always translates to power level. His power level was increasing despite his body getting weaker.

The ki control aspect that Vegeta talks about is exactly making your opponents misread your power level, but it truly becomes far greater in moments of attack.

Physical strength is just another way to say their power.

https://imgur.com/a/J7hJu9Z

On the website "Jiren is not taking hit and Goku seriously"

"Hes conserving his physical strength"

MUI Goku vs Jiren.

"Its become a battle of attrition. What will run out first. Goku's ultra instinct, or Jiren's physical strength"

In which we know Jiren lost so much power that he became Base Goku level.

In the manga and website that corroborate to the manga, physical strength is simply their power. This makes sense as the difference mentioned is how they use their power.

You also keep ignoring that Goku already HAS A BETTER physical body than Moro. This is why Goku's body can handle Ultra insticts and why Moro's body cannot.

The statement cannot refer to Goku training his physical body to Moro's level right now, because he already had a better physical body back in the Moro arc. Thats why Moro needed another body.

[Hugo Boss]

The image you linked is translated differently from what the official site says: “Even more shocking is that Jiren managed to dominate both Goku and Hit while holding back his true power to conserve his stamina!”.

This is exactly the quirk that Vegeta is talking about, but after Goku starts dominating him with ultra instinct, Jiren changed his approach entirely and started using the power that he was hiding. It was notable that Jiren’s ki and speed were increasing the more Goku hit him.

By the way, Beerus also never mentioned anything about Jiren’s physical strength. He says: “Will it be Jiren who runs out of stamina first, or will Goku’s ultra instinct come undone first…?”.

Whis implies the key factor in Goku’s failure was the lack of enough training. Again, nothing about augmenting his physical body is mentioned here. At that point, Goku had a strong body to use the technique, but he needed more endurance and not a stronger body to use it for longer periods. That’s why Moro failed as well, not because his body wasn’t strong enough.

[Torus silvè]

The image you linked is translated differently from what the official site says: “Even more shocking is that Jiren managed to dominate both Goku and Hit while holding back his true power to conserve his stamina!”.

This is exactly the quirk that Vegeta is talking about, but after Goku starts dominating him with ultra instinct, Jiren changed his approach entirely and started using the power that he was hiding. It was notable that Jiren’s ki and speed were increasing the more Goku hit him.

By the way, Beerus also never mentioned anything about Jiren’s physical strength. He says: “Will it be Jiren who runs out of stamina first, or will Goku’s ultra instinct come undone first…?”.

Whis implies the key factor in Goku’s failure was the lack of enough training. Again, nothing about physical body is mentioned here. At that point, Goku had a physically strong body to use the technique, but he needed more endurance and not a stronger body to use it for longer periods. That’s why Moro failed as well, not because his body wasn’t strong enough.

The japanese website does indeed say physical strength. You are using the English site which has numerous mistranslations and added information not included on the japanese site.

https://dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_1752.html

"悟空とヒットに対してジレンは全く本気を出しておらず、体力を温存しながら闘っていたようだ。"

"Against Goku and Hit, Jiren was not at all serious and he was fighting while conserving his physical strength."

If you check the IMGUR link I posted earlier, and scroll down. You will also see in the japanese Beerus DOES use physical strength.

"悟空 の 身勝手 の 極意 が 尽きる の が 先 か ジレン の 体力 が 解ける の が 先 か ･･･"

" Will Goku's Ultra instinct run out first, or will Jiren's physical strength run out first..."

Again cipher breaks down the japanese of Goku vs Jiren.

viewtopic.php?f=25&p=1739256

What is actually happening is that Jiren is pushing ultra instinct to dodge faster and faster, and due to UI pushing Goku to a level of speed and power that his body couldn't handle, he dropped out the form.

In the Moro arc, everything is stated to he a problem for the body. Moro's ultra instinct was responding to the speed and strength of Goku, and as a result, what was happening to Goku in the ToP, was also happening to him, except his body started to morph in order to adapt.

Btw. All Goku has done is train to obtain UI omen and train in that over and over again. Moro was already stronger than Omen to begin in base. So he wouldn't have anywhere near as much strain as say Goku in the TOP (his base is much weaker). Its simple that Goku's body is better than Moro's body. Moro literally fixes the problem by switching his body to Earth.