Could this be the reason they don't continue DB Super series yet?

[JulieYBM]

It's well known that the production of Super was deeply troubled, with multiple, egregious examples of new low points for the entire franchise in terms of art, animation and storytelling. It's likely that a large part of the cause of this was from having to work off "outlines" (or films) instead of adapting manga. Its certainly possible that they've been waiting for more manga content before starting again - its clear that Toyo has a better sense for how the characters should be written - but its also possible that they just want to move on, or even that Toriyama hasn't given them his blessing to proceed. It's also clear that he's a lot more excited by the films, and we know he was not pleased with the Super anime. Yes, this is a business decision, but its also a creative one!

Working off of 'outlines' is really no different from working off of a comic. Like, writers are writers. Plenty of the writers working on Dragon Ball Super in those early days wrote original anime, too. Heck, King Ryuu himself wrote large swathes of the Disk Wars: Avengers anime, and that's an original anime not based on a comic. The issue at hand was due to the time constraints as well as the demands from producers. In the writing of anime, the final authority on writing and planning is not the writer. Writers are freelancers hired to write scripts (unless said writer is fulfilling some other staff position, like Anno Hideaki is both chief director and writer on the animated projects that he works on). The series director and producer hire writers, have them come in for story meetings, and then break the story from there. Writers will suggest their own ideas, of course, but they are hired ultimately to carry out the whims of their producer or series director. With Dragon Ball Super we could see that there was no officially credited Series Kousei (series composition) role. Without someone fulfilling the series composition role to organize the writing of the plot that task either fell upon the series director—unlikely here due to the many other roles they would have to oversee on an already shortened production schedule—or the producer. So, I think it's pretty clear from the outset—when the series began production less than three months before broadcast—that the decision was made to follow the material provided by Toriyama Akira for the two prior films, and then re-arrange and adapt the plotlines from there—with some anime-original scenes and episodes added, too.

And, again, an outline is an outline. You know who makes an outline before creating an original anime? Anime staff. Then from there they adapt that outline.

Even anime based on comics still need to be made with time for the staff to actually think about their decisions. The failure of the Dragon Ball Super anime lies entirely on the shoulders of the producers who refused to plan their production better, as well as recruit staff. As a result, innocent workers who get paid little money and have little influence were tossed under the bus. Meanwhile, producers get far more money than them and do far less work.

[capsulecorp]

Working off of 'outlines' is really no different from working off of a comic. Like, writers are writers.

It's true that "writers are writers" (how could that NOT be true?) but I disagree that there's no difference in working from an outline vs a completed manga. An outline doesn't include solutions for important issues like plotting, dialog, pacing, composition, all the things that go into creating a manga and that can be referenced in an adaptation.

Obviously more time and resources could result in a better anime, but that's somewhat apart from the point I was making.
[/quote]

[ABED]

I disagree about Battle of Gods in Super. It works well. RoF is awful because the movie is awful. Garlic Jr. arc might have been better as a movie or just shaved off a few episodes.

I don't know about you, but I found myself increasingly frustrated with Super's adaptation of BotG and RoF.

There were multiple episodes in which next-to-nothing happened, and the episodes ended with the same boring cliffhanger that promised and never delivered: "Oh no, something bad is about to happen with the universe... But you're not going to guess what... FIND OUT NEXT EPISODE!!!" (Next episode, nothing happens either)

Either that, or the even worse, "Ha!!! That entire episode-long fight was just a warm up, I wasn't even using 1% of my power, NOW WE'RE GOING TO FIGHT FOR REAL!!!" (Next episode... They're still not fighting for real)

It's TV and I'm not in a rush to get to the ending. Not everything is about plot.

[Vegetto95]

Like, it's possible...but it requires subplots that actually lead to character development and thematic cohesion. Toriyama needs to work with other creators and use their ideas to actually achieve a story that could fit a longer runtime.

I mean, one of MANY reasons why I have absolutely no interest in a TV anime adaptation of any of the post-Tournament of Power content is the fact that (aside from the Moro arc, which absolutely had a FUCKTON of problems but at least felt like an actual STORY when it was all put together) most of it is just so... barren.

In particular, the Broli movie and the Granolah arc are... Ugh. Just UGH. Much like Revival of 'F' before them, neither had anything anywhere approaching what I would call a "story". Both just had the tiniest, bare minimum amount of setup that served NO purpose except simply to "bring Gokū and Vegeta into contact with a misguided anti-hero who ends up being incredibly boring and forgettable, despite having great potential for an interesting personality that gets instead completely dropped halfway through, with a loose connection to their fathers and a desire for revenge... and then have them fight... and fight. And fight. And fight some more. And then more. And EVEN MORE! Until it eventually, FINALLY, mercifully ends... in the most anticlimactic bullshit way possible loooong after my eyes had COMPLETELY glazed over from sheer boredom. Oh yeah, and Freeza's there, but he does absolutely nothing except set up ANOTHER possible future confrontation between him and Gokū&Vegeta that we may or may not see a decade down the line".

Broli and Granolah are baaaaad. Like, really, REAAALLY BAD. Because they have absolutely ZERO story whatsoever and instead exist SOLELY to just have Gokū and Vegeta fight a few really strong, really boring guys for way, WAAAAAY too fucking long. I couldn't stand them when they were an hour and 45 minute movie and a 20-chapter manga arc because half of each was nothing but ENDLESS, CONSTANT, NONSTOP, REPETITIVE, BORING FIGHTING... so I sure as SHIT don't want a DOZEN+ episodes of the same garbage. Noooo thank you!

Super Hero at least had some comedic elements that REALLY worked (aside from the godawful Orange bullshit, the way it used Piccolo was sheer perfection), and almost all of the new characters (Hedo, Magenta, Gamma 1 and 2) are fantastic... but it just HAD to succumb to having the gang combat a boring, mindless, screamy monster for twenty minutes for the climax (at the VERY least, Granolah and Gas could actually TALK, which helped a little tiny bit compared to Broli and HBO Cell Max), while busting even more pointless, horribly-designed new Skittles transformations out of buttfucking NOWHERE. It had a lot of the same problems as Revival of 'F', Broli, and Granolah, but it didn't completely collapse under their weight like they did.

Now... is it POSSIBLE to rewrite Granolah and Broli to focus more on the characters and actually DO SOMETHING with their dropped potential, as well as expand the story to the point where there actually IS one? Sure, but it would require a COMPLETE overhaul of their second halves at the VERY least... and obviously, that wasn't exactly the case with the TV anime adaptation of RoF. It just took shit and made it even shittier.

But again, there IS potential. I have completely lost count of just how fucking many people I've seen claim that 2018 Broli is just sooooooo much more interestingly written than his 1992-94 counterpart... but I just don't see it. Sure, he's a peaceful guy that doesn't like fighting, but has been abusively manipulated into doing so by his evil father, and as I said before... that's interesting!! Now... if only the movie had actually, you know... DONE SOMETHING WITH THAT, instead of just turning him into an INSANELY BORING scream factory for the ENTIRE second half of the film!! I'm just SO SICK of Dragon Ball Super introducing characters and concepts with extraordinary potential for interesting storytelling... and then doing absolutely FUCKALL with any of it and instead lazily reverting right back to "Durr hurr, these guys punch a lot".

From what I've seen in the last eight and a half years of Super content, I have absolutely ZERO faith that a TV anime adaptation would solve ANY of these SEVERE problems, and quite frankly I would only expect them to just be made worse instead. No, I don't want TV adaptations of Moro, Broli, Granolah, and Super Hero... I wanna see what Daima does. I have been SO burned out by how shitty ALL of Super has been since it began in 2015, so I CANNOT get my hopes up for it... but at least Daima seems to be going AGAINST a lot of the things I'm so long-since sick of with Super. Turning the cast into kids, making them way weaker so as to (hopefully) decrease the extremely reliance on stupid, pointless rainbow forms and out-of-control powerscaling? Having them go into space to find the source of the de-aging, which is seemingly a madōshi and a Makaiōshin, leading to a focus on adventure and a potential exploration of the magical elements of the lore that have barely ever been touched? And all as part of a story that is, you know... NEW? Yeah, I want all THAT instead.

[JulieYBM]

Like, it's possible...but it requires subplots that actually lead to character development and thematic cohesion. Toriyama needs to work with other creators and use their ideas to actually achieve a story that could fit a longer runtime.

I mean, one of MANY reasons why I have absolutely no interest in a TV anime adaptation of any of the post-Tournament of Power content is the fact that (aside from the Moro arc, which absolutely had a FUCKTON of problems but at least felt like an actual STORY when it was all put together) most of it is just so... barren.

Well, yeah, hence the point I am continually making in threads like these: Dragon Ball needs to break the rules of Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball isn't doing that. In his messy attempts at being #NotLikeTheOtherGirls, Toriyama has now built a series where characters aren't really as likable (particularly, the circular nature of Gokuu and Vegeta as characters). The Moro and Granola arcs would absolutely require being broken down, looked at for its story and character potential, and then actually have that brought out by a writer who isn't afraid of actually making a story that resonates. For all his attempts at getting across this idea of not making a 'heroic' character, Toriyama isn't actually making an interesting character and then using that character to create tension and excitement.

A big problem with anime like Dragon Ball Super is that the staff either self-impose (or have imposed on them) this idea of never straying too far from the status quo, and never going to Toriyama and being like, "Hey, now you have to live with and work based off of our ideas, too." There's too much deference paid not simply to Toriyama the man, but Toriiyama the method of storytelling. Which is a terrible shame, because one of my favorite writers of all time wrote for Dragon Ball Super (Tomioka Atsuhiro), and I venture that the episodes he wrote—even under the constraints of not going too far with his ideas—were by far the most exciting of the 2015-2018 series. Tomioka is the king not just of battles strategies, but also of creating rivalries between characters that draw you in. I absolutely think that he's a writer that Toriyama can and should learn from.

I think a big issue with the Cult of Personality that both production committees and fandoms buy-into with mangaka is this idea that mangaka are unable to learn and should not be expected to try and improve. Fans will talk and talk about respecting the creator's image (unless they're just hate-reading), but never actually think that perhaps a creator could learn and grow stronger. As a writer myself whose's still growing after decades of writing, I think it's a terrible shame to see a creator not be pushed to think harder about their art.

[Vegetto95]

Well, yeah, hence the point I am continually making in threads like these: Dragon Ball needs to break the rules of Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball isn't doing that. In his messy attempts at being #NotLikeTheOtherGirls, Toriyama has now built a series where characters aren't really as likable (particularly, the circular nature of Gokuu and Vegeta as characters).

A big problem with anime like Dragon Ball Super is that the staff either self-impose (or have imposed on them) this idea of never straying too far from the status quo, and never going to Toriyama and being like, "Hey, now you have to live with and work based off of our ideas, too." There's too much deference paid not simply to Toriyama the man, but Toriiyama the method of storytelling.

I've constantly maintained since 2015 that Super "playing it safe" and sticking itself inside the ten year timeskip between the defeat of Boo and the 28th Budōkai was a huge debilitating crutch. Why care about the stakes when we've known since 1995 that everything will be perfectly peaceful and everyone will be perfectly fine no matter what Super does? Why care about the threats of powerful new opponents when we've known for the last 25+ years that nothing bad will happen in the end?

Say what you will about GT (it absolutely has its problems of course, but overall I feel it handles the vast majority of its characters FAAAR better than Super), but at least it decided to place itself AFTER the end of the manga/Z where it had nothing holding it back from telling NEW stories that actually go NEW places and do NEW things, and actually did shit that had REAL consequences towards the story.

Characters grew old in GT, the kids grew up, and some of the characters actually either died for realsies, or just up and left. AND THAT'S INTERESTING. GT is a story that could fly around freely wherever it wanted; Super is a child pretending to fly because it's being held up in the air by its dad (the 28th TB epilogue) and can't "fly" any farther than the reach of its dad's arms. Which is ESPECIALLY ironic since, from what I've heard, Tōei initially was thinking of placing GT in that ten-year gap just like they eventually did with Super before they (thankfully) changed their minds. And it's not even like it's IMPOSSIBLE to tell a good story in a midquel... just like a prequel, it's difficult to make it truly MATTER, but it is ABSOLUTELY possible... it just requires stronger creative minds than the ones in charge of Dragon Ball Pooper.

It's the same thing Tōei's been doing with Digimon Adventure since Tri in 2015: placing every new story (aside from that GODAWFUL reboot series) in-between the 25 year timeskip at the end of Adventure 02. I despised Last Evolution: Kizuna because the whole emotional crux was "Oh no! Yamato and Taichi have to learn to grow up because Agumon and Gabumon fucking DIE!!"... which holds ZERO emotional weight because we've known since the final episode of Adventure 02 (that aired back in 2001!!!!) that Agumon and Gabumon happily and healthily survive well into their respective tamers' adulthoods.

It all just SCREAMS of Tōei and Shūeisha milking brand loyalty and nostalgia without putting in any effort to write truly impactful stories, simply because they're well aware that these franchises are far too huge and beloved and have INCREDIBLY strong fanbases who will throw infinite amounts of money at them no matter how terrible the content they spew out is.

And what's worse is that, even within those limiting confines that Super trapped itself in, there's still ten whole years that they COULD have turned into something interesting, but instead it's all just been... so disjointed. Like you said, there's this ridiculous adherence to the status quo and returning back to it after EVERY. SINGLE. individual story arc.

I'm sick of every story arc (this was an especially frequent problem in the Super TV anime) ending with all of the characters having a nice, fun cookout at Capsule Corp after EVERYTHING'S been neatly resolved and all the loose ends of each individual arc have been all tied up with no attempt to capitalize on the serialized nature of the narrative. No longer do we get things like "the 22nd TB is over, but Kuririn's dead!" There's no "Piccolo Daimaō is defeated, but he spat out a son and Shen Long's still dead!" No "we defeated the Saiyans, but all of our friends are dead! But guess what? There are more Dragon Balls in space!" No "we revived all of our friends and beat Freeza, but where's Gokū?" No "we defeated Super No. 17, but we can't revive Kuririn because the Dragon Balls are cracked and aren't working!"

Instead it's all just... "We beat the revived Freeza, now on to the next thing! We won the U6 tourney, now on to the next thing! We beat Zamasu, now on to the next thing! We won the ToP, now on to the next thing! We beat Moro, now on to the next thing! We beat Broli, now on to the next thing! We beat Gas, now on to the next thing! We beat Cell Max, now on to the next thing! And we celebrate with a big, happy barbecue dinner party just about every single goddamn time!" The original series had an arc end with a big, happy get together at Capsule Corp. ONCE... at the VERY end of the series (right before the ten-years later epilogue, at least), and even then, ONLY in the anime. We don't need it EVERY TIME.

And about the ONLY thing tying any of it together is the continued presence of Beerus and Whis (and Freeza for the last six years) just hanging out in the background doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING except providing vague hints to Gokū and Vegeta as to how they can pull the next nonsensical clown wig transformation out of their asses with absolutely zero narrative buildup or explanation.

What's worse is that, a decade ago, I didn't mind whatsoever that Yo! Son Gokū and His Friends Return and the God and God/Battle of Gods movie set themselves during that timeskip... because they were just single, standalone, cute little side stories and nothing more. I liked them and honestly still do. When Tōei made BoG, they did so with no intention of carrying the story much further, let alone starting a whole new endlessly ongoing series... until RoF made crazy bank at the box office two years later and they stupidly RUUUUSHED the Super manga and TV series into production... only to then still treat EVERY arc since like it's own single, standalone little side story... just not so cute anymore.

It reminds me of Kunzait_83's signature quoting Zephyr that says "Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more." There's absolutely something (a LOT of somethings, really) missing in modern Dragon Ball content that was so beautifully present in the original run. Obviously Dragon Ball isn't some masterpiece of dark, dramatic, character-driven storytelling like something you'd expect from Scorsese or Fincher or Aronofsky or Herzog or Lynch or Bergman or Gilliam; it's still a silly children's fantasy martial arts series at the end of the day and always has been for its entire 40 years of existence... but godDAMNit, at least it USED to take SOME risks with its story and characters back in the 80s and 90s. Nowadays it's just a soulless, corporate franchise shitting out endless content for the sake of content (though, really, for the sake of shameless profit without regards to artistic integrity).

And possibly the most important factor is this: I just don't think Toriyama Akira himself cares anymore. He hasn't truly cared about Dragon Ball since 1995, and even then he was INSANELY burned out from FIFTEEN straight years of the weekly chapter grind. He ain't like Martin Scorsese who's EIGHTY fucking years old and yet just released Killers of the Flower Moon last year, which was a HUGE passion project that meant a lot to him personally, and it SHOWS in the film's quality. But, as you said, there's too much unquestioned deference towards this old man who barely gives a fuck about a series he ended 30 years ago, and not enough dissenting voices trying to honor his (mostly former) talents while still trying to make Dragon Ball GOOD and drive it into the future in bold, exciting new directions without having to constantly jangle member berries in front of fans' noses at every possibly opportunity.

I'd rather Dragon Ball have just stayed where it was in November 1997 with the (AMAZING) ending of GT (and honestly, I NEVER needed or even WANTED more Dragon Ball after that: GT's ending was damn near perfect, and after a whopping 508 episodes... a satisfying ending made the entire franchise feel complete and wrapped up with a nice pretty bow, and I never had any desire to ruin that by unwrapping it and stuffing a bunch of unnecessary new shit into that already overstuffed box) than watch in disappointment, indifference, apathy, and a twinge of the tiny little bit of sadness I have left that hasn't been completely eaten up by the apathy (I'm LOOONG since over being able to get angry at any of the stupid writing in Super) as this once-great franchise endlessly spins its wheels inside a limiting box that's sat around since 1995, returns to the status quo every five seconds, and lazily panders to nostalgia without ever really feeling like it's trying anymore.

We're in the age of the MCU where every fantastical story is expected to be part of some huge, ongoing, neverending money-making franchise machine, and it sucks. It sucks that there's almost nothing that's "mainstream" these days that can actually have a goddamn ENDING. Endings are often the most POWERFUL and impactful parts of any story, and we're in an age where films and TV shows and books and whatnot that still understand that are becoming increasingly more "niche". I know you, Julie, have recently talked about how you barely ever dip your toes in things that are considered "mainstream Hollywood productions" anymore, and I'm in the same boat. And it really sucks to see that kind of modern Hollywood mentality taking a stronger and stronger foothold in Japan.

[AliTheZombie13]

Toriyama is given too much credit, yes. The Cell and Boo Sagas are those where Toriyama was almost in full control, and boy, the quality on those took a sudden drop to the ground. It makes you wonder, was Toriyama really ever all that great, or was it his editors putting him in check that made him great?

Now that nobody ever really questions Toriyama anymore, it makes me wonder how much the problems of Super are a result of the executive meddling and how much are really Toriyama's own unchecked storytelling abilities.

[MasenkoHA]

Toriyama is given too much credit, yes. The Cell and Boo Sagas are those where Toriyama was almost in full control, and boy, the quality on those took a sudden drop to the ground. .

Huh.

It was pretty much the opposite for Cell.

He wanted 19 and 20 to be the villains. Torishima said "it's a fatso and an old geezer" and Toriyama said "okay" and made 17 and 18. Then Torishima said "they're just two brats" and Toriyama made Cell. Then Kondō said "he's ugly, make him transform" and then said "Semi-Perfect Cell looks like a moron, hurry up and get to his final form"

I certaintly think the editorial feedback made for a better story arc, but it really doesn't go with your statement that he had full control and the Cell arc sucked because of it. It's probably the Z era arc with the most well known editor oversight.

[Vegetto95]

Toriyama is given too much credit, yes. The Cell and Boo Sagas are those where Toriyama was almost in full control, and boy, the quality on those took a sudden drop to the ground. It makes you wonder, was Toriyama really ever all that great, or was it his editors putting him in check that made him great?

Now that nobody ever really questions Toriyama anymore, it makes me wonder how much the problems of Super are a result of the executive meddling and how much are really Toriyama's own unchecked storytelling abilities.

I think there's ABSOLUTELY a VERY strong argument to be made that not only was Toriyama very much a talented writer in his prime, and not only has his writing gone downhill in the last 30 years and is vastly inferior to way back when, but that it is also not entirely his fault as there are way more (a.k.a. too many) cooks in the kitchen when it comes to 21st century Dragon Ball storytelling as opposed to its original run in the 1980s and '90s, and NOT in a good way.

Yes, during the manga's original run, Morishita and Kondō helped somewhat to shepherd the story in a direction that they felt would be financially successful, but the degree of control they had over Toriyama tends to be GREATLY exaggerated. He had full ability to simply ignore their advice, but they were trusted friends and co-workers so he took their advice seriously. Make no mistake... Toriyama more or less had full control over the writing of his series.

Now, I do totally agree that the storytelling quality of the Artificial Human and Majin Boo arcs were significantly lower than the rest of the series up to that point, and it's very possible that that was in part due to the more lenient nature of his third editor at the time (whose name escapes me right at the moment)... but you've also GOT to factor EXTREME burnout into the equation. Discounting the mere three month gap between the end of Dr. Slump and the start of Dragon Ball in 1984, he had been writing and drawing a 15-page manga chapter EVERY WEEK for over 15 YEARS by the time Dragon Ball ended in 1995. You can TELL by the noticeably decreased quality of the art in the Boo arc alone that he was burned out. His more lax editor at the time absolutely was likely a strong factor, but I feel that there were multiple other factors at play by that point.

But him from the beginning of the series to at least the Saiyan arc, if not a good chunk of the Namek arc? C'mon, the man did a FANTASTIC job writing a 97% coherent ongoing story without ever planning much at all out in advance. And I would argue that that was one of the things that gave it a lot of its irresistible charm... the story felt so wild and twisty and unpredictable because that's HOW Toriyama wrote it! If HE didn't have any idea where exactly his story was going to go, how were readers supposed to from week to week?

His editors, again, helped nudge the story along here and there, that much is true... but Toriyama still wrote ALL of it. Sure, there few a few plot holes and inconsistencies here and there, but you're almost always gonna get that from even the most detailed pre-planned outlines... and let's be real... Super has waaaaaaaaaaaaay more of those WITH it's pre-plotted story outlines than the original manga EVER did when Toriyama was pulling the plot out of his ass every week, and there's a whole TEAM of people coming up with Super's story!! Compared to the wonderful unpredictability of the original series' writing, the corporate production of Super's writing just feels so damn stale.

As for the current era of Dragon Ball... I feel Toriyama's loooong since divorced himself from caring too much about Dragon Ball, and the very, VERY little involvement he does have with Super is basically the most anyone can really get out of him anymore. I don't believe for a single solitary SECOND the insinuation that 2015-present Toriyama is the same person with the same mindset as 1980-1995 Toriyama. Far too much time has gone past, far too much comfort in him being 98.7% retired since ending DB almost 30 years ago now (the man is just a little over a year away from turning 70, for christsakes!) has settled in for him to be ANYWHERE NEAR as invested in the creative side of the franchise as he was when he was its main source.

[AliTheZombie13]

If I recall, by that point, his editor wasn't working with him anymore, and Toriyama just followed his requests out of respect.
As for Boo, it had zero editorial supervision.

Your mileage might vary on it, but I'm definitely not a fan of how the story was handled during Cell and how goalposts kept changing constantly because Toriyama's then-editor was never happy with anything. Personally, I thought the story should've continued with #16, #17 and #18, who were far, far, far, FAR more interesting than Mr. "I found my true purpose in life: Destroying the universe" Cell.

[MasenkoHA]

If I recall, by that point, his editor wasn't working with him anymore, and Toriyama just followed his requests out of respect.
As for Boo, it had zero editorial supervision.

Your mileage might vary on it, but I'm definitely not a fan of how the story was handled during Cell and how goalposts kept changing constantly because Toriyama's then-editor was never happy with anything.

Kondō was his current editor at the time, so Cell being able to transform at all, the rush through Semi-Perfect to Perfect Cell and even Perfect Cell being essentially a handsome guy in bug man armor was coming from editorial oversight so it wasn't just "out of respect" in that portion.

And even though Torishima (the one responsible for 17 and 18 and then Cell existing) was no longer Toriyama's editor, it still goes against the idea the Cell arc was "bad" because Toriyama had too much creative control.

You can either believe the Cell arc was bad because of his editors feedback or you can believe Toriyama doing his own thing without a second opinion is to the detriment of the series. But you can't have it both ways.

[AliTheZombie13]

And even though Torishima (the one responsible for 17 and 18 and then Cell existing) was no longer Toriyama's editor, it still goes against the idea the Cell arc was "bad" because Toriyama had too much creative control.

You can either believe the Cell arc was bad because of his editors feedback or you can believe Toriyama doing his own thing without a second opinion is to the detriment of the series. But you can't have it both ways.

This, I believe this.
Toriyama sometimes has good ideas, and other times... "Hey, let's have a tournament where Goku nearly damn provokes multiversal genocide, and he suffers no repercussions for his actions, nor does he learn anything, and he doesn't do anything to fix up his mess. It just happens, and he's very excited to fight people and doom them all to non-existence! But he's the good guy, we swear!"

[Basaku]

This, I believe this.

And there's nothing wrong with it and it DOESN'T discredit Toriyama's skills in any way, nor undermines his talent. Which is something that often gets skewed or ommited in discussions like this. There's that underlying tone that working with a feedback (or accepting any if it) is somehow "worse", or a negative, than doing it all by yourself. Which is not only wrong IMO in literally any profession/activity in life but also detrimental to the process in fact. None of us is always right and never makes mistakes, all of us (even introverts) live among fellow human beings and interact with 'em and we all give and recieve feedback. The notion that not only the best way to do it is to work full solo/with no creative back&forth is simply wrong to me, just as the idea that solo is the true&final merit of professionalism or artistry. Perhaps this notion stems from our inherit desire to be the best and always right and thus we project that onto requirements on other people. All while not realizing that we will never be able to do it all by ourselves either.

/psuedo philosophical dilemmas, not directed at you Ali, just took an oppurtunity to dig deeper into this area of discussion

[JulieYBM]

For the record, Kondou left as Toriyama's editor just before the Cell Game. Takeda took over for the remainder of the Cell stuff as well as the Majin Buu arc, and was described as being lenient with Toriyama. I think that the Cell Game could have potentially been a lot better if Kondou stuck around, even if I thought that the Super Vegeta portion of the arc was weaker material. I really did enjoy the early stuck with my handsome cicada husband.

...okay, who am I kidding, all three Cell forms are hawt as fuck.

I do have to wonder what other plans Toriyama supposedly had for Second Form Cell that he had to cut short due to Kondou hating the design.

[ABED]

And even though Torishima (the one responsible for 17 and 18 and then Cell existing) was no longer Toriyama's editor, it still goes against the idea the Cell arc was "bad" because Toriyama had too much creative control.

You can either believe the Cell arc was bad because of his editors feedback or you can believe Toriyama doing his own thing without a second opinion is to the detriment of the series. But you can't have it both ways.

This, I believe this.
Toriyama sometimes has good ideas, and other times... "Hey, let's have a tournament where Goku nearly damn provokes multiversal genocide, and he suffers no repercussions for his actions, nor does he learn anything, and he doesn't do anything to fix up his mess. It just happens, and he's very excited to fight people and doom them all to non-existence! But he's the good guy, we swear!"

Why do the ridiculous stakes bother you? Oh, and the tournament wasn't Goku's idea, either.

Now that nobody ever really questions Toriyama anymore, it makes me wonder how much the problems of Super are a result of the executive meddling and how much are really Toriyama's own unchecked storytelling abilities.

Or it's the result of going beyond the natural endpoint because it is still incredibly popular. And it feels like you are trying to take away due credit from Toriyama. Good authors listen to editors, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get the bulk of the credit.

It's a credit to Toriyma's talent that the progression of the Cell arc from 19 and 20's intro through Perfect Cell felt as cohesive as it does.

[MasenkoHA]

For the record, Kondou left as Toriyama's editor just before the Cell Game. Takeda took over for the remainder of the Cell stuff as well as the Majin Buu arc, and was described as being lenient with Toriyama. I think that the Cell Game could have potentially been a lot better if Kondou stuck around, even if I thought that the Super Vegeta portion of the arc was weaker material. I really did enjoy the early stuck with my handsome cicada husband.

...okay, who am I kidding, all three Cell forms are hawt as fuck.

I do have to wonder what other plans Toriyama supposedly had for Second Form Cell that he had to cut short due to Kondou hating the design.

I wonder if we would have even gotten Gohan as a would be protagonist replacement if Kondō was still editor during the Cell Games

[ABED]

I've constantly maintained since 2015 that Super "playing it safe" and sticking itself inside the ten year timeskip between the defeat of Boo and the 28th Budōkai was a huge debilitating crutch. Why care about the stakes when we've known since 1995 that everything will be perfectly peaceful and everyone will be perfectly fine no matter what Super does? Why care about the threats of powerful new opponents when we've known for the last 25+ years that nothing bad will happen in the end?

Why do we care about stakes even if we didn't know how it all ends?

[MasenkoHA]

Or it's the result of going beyond the natural endpoint because it is still incredibly popular. And it feels like you are trying to take away due credit from Toriyama. Good authors listen to editors, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get the bulk of the credit.

It's a credit to Toriyma's talent that the progression of the Cell arc from 19 and 20's intro through Perfect Cell felt as cohesive as it does.

Seconding this.

The importance of Toriyama's editors, Torishima in particular, can't be understated. Dragon Ball Z probably wouldn't exist without Torishima's direction as the series likely wouldn't have survived past Red Ribbon.

But at the end of the day, it's still Toriyama's creation. It's not less his story just because his editors guided it.

[JulieYBM]

For the record, Kondou left as Toriyama's editor just before the Cell Game. Takeda took over for the remainder of the Cell stuff as well as the Majin Buu arc, and was described as being lenient with Toriyama. I think that the Cell Game could have potentially been a lot better if Kondou stuck around, even if I thought that the Super Vegeta portion of the arc was weaker material. I really did enjoy the early stuck with my handsome cicada husband.

...okay, who am I kidding, all three Cell forms are hawt as fuck.

I do have to wonder what other plans Toriyama supposedly had for Second Form Cell that he had to cut short due to Kondou hating the design.

I wonder if we would have even gotten Gohan as a would be protagonist replacement if Kondō was still editor during the Cell Games

I'm curious if Kondou would've pushed for the pretty boy (Trunks) to be the big protagonist that saves the day since he came over from being an editor for shoujo.

Trunks and Gohan teaming up to defeat Cell would have been a lot more fun, especially if Gokuu and Vegeta had to sacrifice themselves to stop Cell. That would then leave Gohan with an opportunity to be Present Trunks' mentor in the Majin Buu arc.

[Vegetto95]

Why do we care about stakes even if we didn't know how it all ends?

Look... I'm FAAAAR from the type of person who prioritizes the action above all else in regards to Dragon Ball (hence why, as I said earlier in this thread, I despised the Broli movie and Granolah arc because that's ALL they were: endless, boring action with ZERO story except to set up said action setpieces); I care about the characters and story first and foremost, and I do so dearly love Dragon Ball's cast of wacky, lovable martial arts obsessives.

But here's the thing... Dragon Ball isn't some slice of life comedy anime. It has slice of life SEGMENTS (that are usually very brief, and almost always anime-exclusive), and I adore a lot of those segments. But like... Super spends the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of its story harping on and on about Beerus wanting to destroy the Earth, Zamasu wanting to eradicate all life forms in the multiverse, Zenō wanting to wipe out seven universes, Moro wanting to rule the universe, Granolah wanting to kill Gokū and Vegeta, etc. No different than how the original run of the series harps on and on about the Red Ribbon Army wanting to conquer the world, or the same with Piccolo Daimaō, Vegeta and Nappa, Freeza, Cell, etc.

And those stakes matter in a series like Dragon Ball because the CHARACTERS matter. We don't want Piccolo Daimaō to succeed because that will mean the deaths of Gokū, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and the rest of the gang on top of the others who had already killed. Characters who we've been made to CARE about. Ditto for Vegeta and Nappa, or Freeza, or Cell, Boo, Yi Xing Long, etc. For another example, why do we care about the stakes in Star Wars? Why should we care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin IV? Hmmm... maybe because the movie has made us care about Leia and C-3PO and all the others who would have died as a result?

That's where the problem with Super is... we KNOW that all of the characters will make it out free and clear, and have since 1995 (and before anyone puts forward the whole bullshit argument that I've heard time and time again ad nauseam about "But death never mattered in Dragon Ball because of the Dragon Balls!!"... c'mon, we ALL know that's not true. EVERY arc has had something that made it so that death would have been permanent if the characters had failed, usually because no one would have been ALIVE to wish the dead back if the villains had succeeded), we KNOW from the get-go that everyone will be just perfectly fine and dandy come Age 784. And that makes it a tad (read: a LOT) harder to care when, say, Zamasu stabbed Gokū through the chest, because we know right then and they that he'll get better, just as if he were a side character in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

And of course you could argue that "But it's a children's battle shōnen series made for 6 to 12 year olds, of COURSE the good guys are always gonna come out on top!!" And that's true... to a certain extent. But even then, the truly shocking moments of Kuririn being found dead after the 22nd Tenkaichi Budōkai, or Piccolo killing Gokū and Raditz, or Freeza killing Kuririn, or No. 16 being crushed by Cell would all have been DRASTICALLY decreased in narrative and emotional impact if the story had already shown those characters being perfectly alive and well twenty years later. Scenes like Piccolo being killed by Freeza in the Revival of 'F' arc in the anime, or the ENTIRE struggle to survive in the Tournament of Power don't resonate as much because we know Gokū will be right there, hale and hearty, ready to train Oob just a few years later. In contrast, who would have predicted Gokū leaving everyone and taking the Dragon Balls with him at the end of GT, when, unlike Super, the door to the places GT could go was WIDE open when it was airing?

I dunno, all in all I just think it's a little weird to act like stakes shouldn't matter in a story where evil bastards who can destroy entire solar systems with their eyebrow hairs are constantly threatening the lives of the characters we love. If you don't want stakes to matter, go watch Clifford the Big Red Dog or Non Non Biyori or Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends or something like that lol