Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

Super Hero doesn't feature or even mentions fusion so it's not really relevant here.

Indeed, Fusion is irrelevant, because Fusion remains weaker than Beerus.

Beerus was introduced as a character who is above even Fusion. That is the function of his character. It was so in BoG, and it was so in every other story arc. That has not changed.

If you want something from the movies, Gogeta Blue ran circles around someone as strong as Beerus.

Is there any source for this?

Besides the unreliable and flawed narrator, Goku, who has only seen 10% of Beerus' power...

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Something I think we ought to realize now is that we can't keep saying "Toriyama intended" now that he's gone.

We can't fall back on this line of logic anymore, and we shouldn't try to anyways.

[Hugo Boss]

Not to mention chapter #103 wasn’t even released yet, so it’s very difficult to have a clear assessment without full context.

Anyway, Toriyama had conflicting opinions on how strong Beerus was all the way from Battle of Gods until Super Hero.

2013: 1,66x SSG Goku
2015: 2x SSB Goku
2017: a hair behind SS Broly
2022: stronger than Goku (???)

[ZombieVito]

It seems the chapter clarifies how all the characters stand in comparison to each other.

1. Gogeta/Vegetto Blue
2. Gohan/Broly
3. Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo

Beerus should probably be in tier 2 considering he's stated to be on par with Broly and weaker than Vegetto, but realistically he's either tier 0 or tier 1.5.

Unsure of where Freeza stands at this point. He had an easier time with Goku so he should be above Gohan and Broly at least.

Yeah, this seems to be the current order. Beerus should be tier 1.5.

[QuakingStar]

He has seen Beerus in the Destroyer Tournament where killing was not a thing but was it ever said Beerus went all out?? He was simply stronger than the others and only Quitella and possibly Belmod were near him. Mind you Beerus was getting ganged up on early on and still was handling them.

[Miracles]

Super Hero doesn't feature or even mentions fusion so it's not really relevant here.

If you want something from the movies, Gogeta Blue ran circles around someone as strong as Beerus.

Never stated.

People you are going against the story. Beerus came into Super stronger than fusion and that narration has never changed to date.

It's

1. Whis
2. Beerus
3. everyone else [including fusion]

Let it go.

[Block88]

Super Hero doesn't feature or even mentions fusion so it's not really relevant here.

Indeed, Fusion is irrelevant, because Fusion remains weaker than Beerus.

Beerus was introduced as a character who is above even Fusion. That is the function of his character. It was so in BoG, and it was so in every other story arc. That has not changed.

If you want something from the movies, Gogeta Blue ran circles around someone as strong as Beerus.

Is there any source for this?

Besides the unreliable and flawed narrator, Goku, who has only seen 10% of Beerus' power...

That just head canon nothing states fusion is inferior to Beerus

[SupremeKai25]

Super Hero doesn't feature or even mentions fusion so it's not really relevant here.

Indeed, Fusion is irrelevant, because Fusion remains weaker than Beerus.

Beerus was introduced as a character who is above even Fusion. That is the function of his character. It was so in BoG, and it was so in every other story arc. That has not changed.

If you want something from the movies, Gogeta Blue ran circles around someone as strong as Beerus.

Is there any source for this?

Besides the unreliable and flawed narrator, Goku, who has only seen 10% of Beerus' power...

That just head canon nothing states fusion is inferior to Beerus

Beerus came into the story stronger than any Saiyan fusion, including Vegito. This is factual.

That narrative has never changed. At no point does the Narrative place any Saiyan fusion above Lord Beerus.

[Miracles]

Super Hero doesn't feature or even mentions fusion so it's not really relevant here.

Indeed, Fusion is irrelevant, because Fusion remains weaker than Beerus.

Beerus was introduced as a character who is above even Fusion. That is the function of his character. It was so in BoG, and it was so in every other story arc. That has not changed.

If you want something from the movies, Gogeta Blue ran circles around someone as strong as Beerus.

Is there any source for this?

Besides the unreliable and flawed narrator, Goku, who has only seen 10% of Beerus' power...

That just head canon nothing states fusion is inferior to Beerus

Battle of gods said so. Fusion was denied an option to beat Beerus. This has never changed. Let us know when it does.

[ZombieVito]

So people think current Gogeta or Vegetto can't beat Beerus?

[Miracles]

Thinking is one thing, but the narrative already factually said they can't.

[SupremeKai25]

So people think current Gogeta or Vegetto can't beat Beerus?

No, they cannot.

This is the only counter to Beerus' power:



Immortality. Nothing else can counter Beerus. That is why no one ever puts Beerus against Zeno/Zamasu/Angels, as that match-up is moot and pointless.

Anyone who doesn't have immortality - this is their fate:



Gone, reduced to atoms.

Beerus can destroy anyone. The only exception are Immortals (Zeno/Zamasu/Angels). Anyone who is not immortal - they get reduced to atoms.

Mortals remain below Lord Beerus until they don't have a counter to Hakai.

Until then, this is how Beerus vs. Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Broly/Piccolo/Punk-of-the-week goes:

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Thinking is one thing, but the narrative already factually said they can't.

Literally the only time fusion was compared to Beerus in the narrative:

Ch. 23, pg. 43.6-7
Context: as Vegetto prepares his Final Kamehameha
Kaioshin: “A-amazing… This is incredible…! The power of Vegetto… Could it already be greater than Lord Beerus’s?!”

[Block88]

Indeed, Fusion is irrelevant, because Fusion remains weaker than Beerus.

Beerus was introduced as a character who is above even Fusion. That is the function of his character. It was so in BoG, and it was so in every other story arc. That has not changed.



Is there any source for this?

Besides the unreliable and flawed narrator, Goku, who has only seen 10% of Beerus' power...

That just head canon nothing states fusion is inferior to Beerus

Beerus came into the story stronger than any Saiyan fusion, including Vegito. This is factual.

That narrative has never changed. At no point does the Narrative place any Saiyan fusion above Lord Beerus.

A version that didn't have god ki,ssjg, Ssjb etc forms Goku didn't knew existed at the time and nothing repeats or mentions Beerus superiority over fusion

[Miracles]

Thinking is one thing, but the narrative already factually said they can't.

Literally the only time fusion was compared to Beerus in the narrative:

Ch. 23, pg. 43.6-7
Context: as Vegetto prepares his Final Kamehameha
Kaioshin: “A-amazing… This is incredible…! The power of Vegetto… Could it already be greater than Lord Beerus’s?!”

That doesn't say stronger than Beerus.

[The Monkey King]

Battle of gods said so. Fusion was denied an option to beat Beerus. This has never changed. Let us know when it does.

You're not making any sense whatsoever.

You're saying that because what is essentially a hypothetical Buu saga Gogeta / Vegito couldn't defeat Beerus... he's stronger than all fusions forever? That doesn't make any sense.

We've seen Blue fusions compared to Beerus twice and the results were:

Goku Black arc
SSJB Vegito >= Beerus
as stated by the Supreme Kai

DBS Broly
Gogeta Blue > Broly >= Beerus
as stated by Goku

Not to mention:

Resurrection F
SSJB Goku and Vegeta = Beerus
as stated by Whis

We have more proof of Blue fusions being at Beerus' level if not stronger than the contrary, but you will ignore that just like how you ignore everything else you don't approve of even when it's written in black and white like:



Ultra Instinct clearly being stated to be Goku's strongest form, not to mention.

Spoiler:

True Ultra Instinct doesn't make an appearance nor is it mentioned in chapter 103

[Mr Baggins]

Ultra Instinct clearly being stated to be Goku's strongest form, not to mention.

Spoiler:

True Ultra Instinct doesn't make an appearance nor is it mentioned in chapter 103

Or Broly's Super Saiyan form 1) being previously inaccessible until now and 2) clearly being a contender for the top ranks, which sure did prompt cricket noises after it kept getting confirmed over and over again.

Honestly, though, I can't say I feel vindicated from this. I simply don't care. People with a history of rejecting what's presented to them at face value will continue to do so, so it's fruitless to engage after a point.

[Miracles]

Battle of gods said so. Fusion was denied an option to beat Beerus. This has never changed. Let us know when it does.

You're not making any sense whatsoever.

You're saying that because what is essentially a hypothetical Buu saga Gogeta / Vegito couldn't defeat Beerus... he's stronger than all fusions forever? That doesn't make any sense.

We've seen Blue fusions compared to Beerus twice and the results were:

Goku Black arc
SSJB Vegito >= Beerus
as stated by the Supreme Kai

DBS Broly
Gogeta Blue > Broly >= Beerus
as stated by Goku

Not to mention:

Resurrection F
SSJB Goku and Vegeta = Beerus
as stated by Whis

We have more proof of Blue fusions being at Beerus' level if not stronger than the contrary, but you will ignore that just like how you ignore everything else you don't approve of even when it's written in black and white like:



Ultra Instinct clearly being stated to be Goku's strongest form, not to mention.

Spoiler:

True Ultra Instinct doesn't make an appearance nor is it mentioned in chapter 103

Narration hasn't changed for blue fusions either. It's just factual.
And what's up with the Goku about using UI?

[SupremeKai25]

A version that didn't have god ki,ssjg, Ssjb etc forms Goku didn't knew existed at the time and nothing repeats or mentions Beerus superiority over fusion

A version that didn't have any of those forms was still too weak to pose any real challenge to a Beerus who was holding back 90% of his real power.

Fusion is not presented as a solution in BoG. It is still not presented as a solution in 2024. Therefore, the Narrative is clear: Fusion still isn't a solution to Beerus.

At no point do Goku and Vegeta suggest fusing to beat Beerus, do they now?

As for Shin's claims, I'll reiterate what I have been saying multiple times over the years: Some people hold Shin on a pedestal, acting like what he says is factual, when in reality, as a narrator, he is neither reliable nor trustworthy. It would be good if these people learned the difference between omniscient narrator and unreliable/in-universe narrator.

[Block88]

A version that didn't have god ki,ssjg, Ssjb etc forms Goku didn't knew existed at the time and nothing repeats or mentions Beerus superiority over fusion

A version that didn't have any of those forms was still too weak to pose any real challenge to a Beerus who was holding back 90% of his real power.

Fusion is not presented as a solution in BoG. It is still not presented as a solution in 2024. Therefore, the Narrative is clear: Fusion still isn't a solution to Beerus.

At no point do Goku and Vegeta suggest fusing to beat Beerus, do they now?

As for Shin's claims, I'll reiterate what I have been saying multiple times over the years: Some people hold Shin on a pedestal, acting like what he says is factual, when in reality, as a narrator, he is neither reliable nor trustworthy. It would be good if these people learned the difference between omniscient narrator and unreliable/in-universe narrator.

Goku nor Vegeta want to rely on a gimmick to win it's been noted numerous of times they rather focused n there own strength and they never once mentioned how fusion is worthless against Beerus either with all three gains so it goes both ways nothing indicates Beerus is above fusion