I agree with the general notion of Blue Fusion > Beerus >= Broly/Gohan > Goku/Vegeta but it seems like everyone is closer together than they've ever been. Goku and Gohan certainly didn't seem that far off from each other. Even if Broly and Gohan are as strong as Beerus they probably still lose to him in a fight though.
I'm guessing Freeza is somewhere around Broly/Gohan.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2024 8:31 pm
At no point do Goku and Vegeta suggest fusing to beat Beerus, do they now?
I don't think they did against Gas either. Do you think Gas could beat Gogeta blue? They also haven't fought Beerus outside of training since battle of gods. It's not like he's ever posed a threat since then.
Apparently Gohan is talked about as possibly considered to be a candidate to be God of Destruction, but then Beerus says he is too serious for it so he wouldn't desrtoy and Whis agrees. Also, Gohan is literally swinging Super Saiyan Broly around.
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2024 6:48 pm
So people think current Gogeta or Vegetto can't beat Beerus?
No, they cannot.
This is the only counter to Beerus' power:
Immortality. Nothing else can counter Beerus. That is why no one ever puts Beerus against Zeno/Zamasu/Angels, as that match-up is moot and pointless.
Anyone who doesn't have immortality - this is their fate:
Gone, reduced to atoms.
Beerus can destroy anyone. The only exception are Immortals (Zeno/Zamasu/Angels). Anyone who is not immortal - they get reduced to atoms.
Mortals remain below Lord Beerus until they don't have a counter to Hakai.
Until then, this is how Beerus vs. Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Broly/Piccolo/Punk-of-the-week goes:
Gogeta in the Broly movie was already pretty far up in the food chain and since then Goku and Vegeta have made massive gains in the later arcs that I just can't see a current fusion still being weaker than Beerus.
All of this just makes Belmod hilariously weaker than Beerus. Like Namek Freeza vs Nappa hilarious.
Well, the full leaked chapter is out. In the end, the whole thing just felt like a sparring match. Goku said that it wasn't about beating Gohan, he just wanted to test his strength (although yeah, we know that both were using full power), Broly wasn't losing as it seemed from the leaks, and Vegeta entered the fight with Gohan using only SSBE (no Ultra Ego).
In the end, the impression really is that all 4 Saiyans are at the same level/tier.
And at least for me, Black Frieza definitely seems to be a tier above them. Goku has admitted inferiority to him in the current arc, and yet he is more or less on par with Beast Gohan, which means Freeza is stronger
I read the chapter too, Gohan powered up some and then bypassed Goku's ui speed and dodging and hit him SO hard he lost UI, and apparently Gohan hasn't masted this form yet either. So in terms of power Gohan is higher but as Vegeta points out there is a gap in experience with Goku having the experience advantage. Gohan is also casually fighting Broly. At the end of the fight everyone is worn out including Broly and Vegeta. Gohan really is that MF guy.
I read the chapter too, Gohan powered up some and then bypassed Goku's ui speed and dodging and hit him SO hard he lost UI, and apparently Gohan hasn't masted this form yet either. So in terms of power Gohan is higher but as Vegeta points out there is a gap in experience with Goku having the experience advantage. Gohan is also casually fighting Broly. At the end of the fight everyone is worn out including Broly and Vegeta. Gohan really is that MF guy.
Spoiler:
ya forgot to add Goku once again confirming Piccolo to be very powerful and wanting to spar with him
I read the chapter too, Gohan powered up some and then bypassed Goku's ui speed and dodging and hit him SO hard he lost UI, and apparently Gohan hasn't masted this form yet either. So in terms of power Gohan is higher but as Vegeta points out there is a gap in experience with Goku having the experience advantage. Gohan is also casually fighting Broly. At the end of the fight everyone is worn out including Broly and Vegeta. Gohan really is that MF guy.
Spoiler:
ya forgot to add Goku once again confirming Piccolo to be very powerful and wanting to spar with him
Spoiler:
Yeah I am loving the respect shown for Piccolo's power. I wish it would have been Piccolo to fight Vegeta though.
I read the chapter too, Gohan powered up some and then bypassed Goku's ui speed and dodging and hit him SO hard he lost UI, and apparently Gohan hasn't masted this form yet either. So in terms of power Gohan is higher but as Vegeta points out there is a gap in experience with Goku having the experience advantage. Gohan is also casually fighting Broly. At the end of the fight everyone is worn out including Broly and Vegeta. Gohan really is that MF guy.
Spoiler:
Honestly? It felt like Goku was just so shocked by Gohan's powered up strikes that he went out of UI. He went right back at it as if nothing happened afterwards.
Otherwise, yeah, Gohan's power is reeeeeally up there.
What bugged me the most was Vegeta not using Ultra Ego at all against Gohan, for some reason.
Honestly? It felt like Goku was just so shocked by Gohan's powered up strikes that he went out of UI. He went right back at it as if nothing happened afterwards.
Otherwise, yeah, Gohan's power is reeeeeally up there.
What bugged me the most was Vegeta not using Ultra Ego at all against Gohan, for some reason.
Spoiler:
Although the idea of Vegeta watching Goku, Gohan and Broly fighting at full power destroying Beerus' planet and thinking "fuck it I'm joining it" and then prefering to use only Blue Evolution is hilarious, Toyo probably just didn't want to draw Ultra Ego since Vegeta's participation in the fight lasted a single panel. If Ultra Ego appeared, Toyo would also need to draw Gohan's reactions/comments (just like he did with Gohan reacting to Ultra Instinct Goku and Super Saiyam Broly) since he never saw the form and at that point in the chapter it was no longer the focus (the battle royale only lasted one page).
It's probably not supposed to be indicative of anything since Goten and Trunks entered the fight against SSJ Broly in their base forms, but at the same time we've already seen SSBE Vegeta being capable of exchanging punches with enemies of that tier even though he was weaker (see fight against Granolah), so it's not something far fetched either. He would still need UE to actually reach the levels of Gohan / Goku /Broly but I guess he can hold his own for some time with Blue Evo
I think the thrust, or what little thrust there is, is something like Gohan ~ Broly, then Goku ~ Vegeta ~ Piccolo. But the chapter was purposely ambiguous with this whole Super Saiyan battle royale thing because everyone was exhausted by the end of it. One can easily argue that all of them belong to the same tier now that Goku and Vegeta have been training, whereas previously I think they would have been a notch below what we saw from them here.
I and LoganForkHands73 covered this a forum page or two ago, but Ultra Ego was mostly just an invention of Vegeta's that he awakened in order to fully tap into Beerus's destruction ki, and even then, he ended up admitting he isn't really cut out for that mindset. I'm not surprised it might just be abandoned at this point. His new thing is focusing on mastering Jiren's technique, so it's totally possible he went back to using Blue Evolution as his best form.
Just about everything from the Granolah arc (including "True" Ultra Instinct) was basically just filler, tbh. Even the wish turned out to be complete bunk the moment Super Saiyan Broly was made to return, as I've been saying forever, since the story inevitably has to align with what Broly's movie established about his power.
Modern DB story arc scores:
Spoiler:
Battle of Gods (2013 film): 9/10
Resurrection 'F' (2015 film): 7/10
Universe 6 (manga arc): 8/10
Future Trunks (manga arc): 7/10
Universe Survival (manga arc): 8.5/10
Broly (2018 film): 9.5/10
Galactic Patrol Prisoner (manga arc): 6/10
Granolah the Survivor (manga arc): 3/10
Super Hero (2022 film and manga arc): 7.5/10
Dragon Ball Daima (2024 anime): 9/10
Well, this will certainly generate some discussions and I guess it remains to be seen where they will ultimately go regarding Vegeta's power, but in this modern Dragon Ball world where every major player has their own thing/power, I just find it hard to believe that they would drop Ultra Ego. I can understand this being a discussion since even during the Granolah arc people questioned whether Vegeta would maintain UE due to the mindset that was believed to be necessary to use the form, but I never got the impression that it was supposed to be something temporary. Even in the interviews given by Toyo, he always highlighted Ultra Ego as Vegeta's answer and path moving forward, which now diverge from Ultra Instinct and the path followed by Goku.
Part of Vegeta's learning during the Granolah arc also lay in understanding that the mindset that fuels Hakai's power isn't necessarily a bad thing. Beerus tried to explain during their training how destruction was simply inherent to the Saiyans' nature and their aptitude to this power, while Vegeta constantly related it to the race's past and the sins they committed. Even when he said he wouldn't be able to ''revert to the callous and unfeeling man he once was'' to use Hakai at its fullest, he was under this mindset, which was what Beerus DIDN'T want him to be in. He also admitted that he was a novice at using this power.
He got over it after the whole Bardock thing, and in the last fight even his attempt to evolve Ultra Ego was about progressively fueling his battle spirit /not focusing on anything that wasn't the battle itself, instead of a pale attempt to imitate a different personality like he did in his first use of Ultra Ego. In short, he learned how to fit the necessary mindset to use Hakai's power into his own principles (which makes sense since Beerus never said Vegeta would need to pull off something like his Majin Vegeta persona to use this power)
Last edited by TheSaiyanGod on Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
TheSaiyanGod said exactly what I was going to say.
Spoiler:
The impression I got was that all these fighters are in the same tier. Gohan is a hair above Goku and Piccolo is a fair bit behind, but still respectable and on the same tier. No idea about Broly though. He does worse than Goku
For the power level folks out there, I guess this chapter puts UI and Beast somewhere in the 50x vicinity? Since SSJ takes Broly from Blue level to their level.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!
Seems after using MUI a second time, Goku have no major difficulty.
He wasn't even 100% concentrated cause he look at Broly during the fight with Gohan.
At the end, he block Beast Gohan punch with ease. At this moment, he can use a devastating counter attack but just use a kiai to stop the fight.
He even say to Vegeta he want just to see the true power of Gohan with no desire to winning (implying he can ?).
Add the fact Vegeta choose to use only Pefect SSBLUE (not aura/no blue evolution).
And he seems to be able to trade hit with Beast in this form.
So it's very suspicious.
And it's Dragon Ball, if Gohan was the strongest among the four, this would have been stated in the chapter.
Especially with the oracle fish.
To me, everything points to Gohan Beast be a top fighter but a bit below Goku/Vegeta full power.
And probably a bit below a LSSJ Broly
People seem to forget, this is a sparring match. No aim to kill, and the purpose of it is to show off their power some. Goku simply says winning or losing was never the point and that is ALL he said. Regardless of that Gohan still hits Goku so hard that the impact from the hit and then the impact from the landing knocks him out of UI. Gohan still lacks mastery and complete control of Beast and goes on to fight SS Broly and then Blue Evolved Vegeta and despite it in the two panels he is fighting Vegeta he shows no sign of struggle whatsoever and people are actually trying to spin it as Gohan being Blue level AGAIN. At the end of the Chapter they have an all-out battle royale, and we see them all exhausted and on the ground.. with Goku being beaten up AND exhausted, but when you look at Gohan is is only exhausted. I think it's quite clear Gohan was never going truly all out earlier considering the chain of events and the aftermath of the battle royale. Goku's experience advantage as pointed out by Vegeta is glaring though, while Gohan has the power advantage thanks to Beast able to increase in power, though it comes at the risk of Gohan going Berserk since he has not mastered Beast yet.
To clarify one thing, as I have seen an agenda going on lately. Vegeta does not need to have an aura present to use Blue Evolved.
People seem to forget, this is a sparring match. No aim to kill, and the purpose of it is to show off their power some. Goku simply says winning or losing was never the point and that is ALL he said. Regardless of that Gohan still hits Goku so hard that the impact from the hit and then the impact from the landing knocks him out of UI. Gohan still lacks mastery and complete control of Beast and goes on to fight SS Broly and then Blue Evolved Vegeta and despite it in the two panels he is fighting Vegeta he shows no sign of struggle whatsoever and people are actually trying to spin it as Gohan being Blue level AGAIN. At the end of the Chapter they have an all-out battle royale, and we see them all exhausted and on the ground.. with Goku being beaten up AND exhausted, but when you look at Gohan is is only exhausted. I think it's quite clear Gohan was never going truly all out earlier considering the chain of events and the aftermath of the battle royale. Goku's experience advantage as pointed out by Vegeta is glaring though, while Gohan has the power advantage thanks to Beast able to increase in power, though it comes at the risk of Gohan going Berserk since he has not mastered Beast yet.
To clarify one thing, as I have seen an agenda going on lately. Vegeta does not need to have an aura present to use Blue Evolved.
To me BLUE EVOLUTION has always an aura in the beginning to show the difference with SSBLUE.
It's a visual for the transformation.
After the initial transformation it's different.
But we'll know this in the color manga.
SS Blue or SS Blue evolution it doesn't matter has Vegeta deliberately choose to not use his strongest form after seeing Beast true power!
Add the fact Goku seems to have a slight upper hand in the last seconds of his fight with Gohan.
He block Gohan with ease and can do a massive counter attack if he want. But he choose a simple kiai (later he explain to vegeta he don't want to win).
For the end, we can't compare all fighters in the ground because we don't know if it's just the result of a death battle of Goku versus Vegeta (they are next to each other).
Add the fact Goten and Trunks are in better shape than Gohan!
You just made that up, Gohan was using Ultimate vs Goten and Trunks, did he NEED it for Goten and Trunks? Not really. He was fighting them just fine. You are assuming Gohan was actually trying against Vegeta and not just sparring him casually. Your agenda is very obvious and it's kind of sad.
Beast Gohan hitting UI Goku isn't special. Jiren did it. Moro and Granolah did as well. But generally UI Goku can't be hit and that is the point.
Beast can be stronger but if he can't hit or rarely hits UI Goku then what is the point of all that power? (Plus UI Goku gets hit when his stamina lowers)
Also didn't Black Freeza beat up Goku while he was tired and weak?
"Good luck, Kakarrot... You are the Champion!!" Vegeta DBZ ShonenJump Manga Volume 26 p.113
My assumption was that Vegeta used SSBE because Gohan was exhausted and weakened after fighting so many people beforehand. He used a lot of stamina pushing past the UI technique, and then Goku asked him if he had strength left to fight Broly when they finished sparring. The impression to me was he was depleted at the point Vegeta entered, and Vegeta knew that.
To me that makes more sense than them spending an arc developing and introducing UE, then deciding it doesn't exist anymore. But that's just me.
There are no definitive conclusions in any way, but my totally subjective impression after this is that Goku and Vegeta are still the top fighters, with Gohan slightly behind (raw power advantage in small bursts, but inexperience disadvantage that would cost him in a conclusive battle), and then Broly slightly behind him. With Piccolo who knows where.
Of course, with Gohan and Broly there are no static rankings since both can get stronger instantly, especially Broly, so this is just think tanking.
Trying to avoid spoilers, but if what I'm glimpsing is true, it doesn't mean Ultra Ego will be retconned out. Anyone hoping for that will be disappointed. The last few chapters have basically been Toyotaro assuring us, "I haven't forgotten all these plot points, let me just get round to them." Was it last month or the chapter before that Black Freeza was also mentioned? When U.E. first appeared as Vegeta's unique form, Toyotaro made sure we knew he hadn't forgotten Goku's infamous Hakai against Zamasu and gave a whole reconciliatory explanation of how that worked. U.E. may have been a bit useless against Granolah and Gas, and maybe Vegeta will decide it isn't the path for him after all, but the new form was heavily hyped up and it made a huge impact on the fandom. Although the lack of eyebrows was criticised (which Toyotaro is definitely aware of judging by Goku's "freaky face" comment), plenty of people love Ultra Ego. I have a feeling that, similar to how Ultra Instinct has evolved over time, Ultra Ego will return again in a tweaked form.
As for "True" Ultra Instinct, I think that was only ever meant to be a stop-gap in Goku's path to mastery and rather than it being forgotten, I think it will continue to evolve. Toyotaro did great artwork of the form (or Omen, they look the fuckin same) recently. The silver-haired Perfected form may seem redundant, but throughout the Granolah arc, Goku was unusually conflicted about the revelations surrounding his father and that interfered with his mindset, so he needed a situational solution like True U.I. that allowed him to use U.I.'s raw strength in tandem with his emotions (which also gave way for cartoony action, making me think Toyo had some inspiration from Luffy's Gear 5 in One Piece). In these last few chapters, Goku acts like his usual carefree self in Perfected U.I. so maybe he's already figured out it out.
