Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 103 - Official Discussion Thread

[TKA]

ncluding ones who dedicate their whole lives to a sport or hobby, are as utterly singleminded about their craft as Goku. Usually, characters with such overwhelming obsessions, to the extent that they neglect their loved ones, are portrayed in a very obviously negative light. When Goku forgets his own granddaughter, it's mostly played off as a dumb joke, just Goku bein' Goku. Vegeta and Piccolo may insult him for it, but we know that Goku won't learn or introspect from this experience, he'll only continue to make the same hurtful, insensitive mistakes, and everyone will move on. I've come to agree with a point JulieYBM has made several times, which is that we've been so trained to expect Toriyama's cynical, irreverent flavour of "subverting expectations" that we're no longer surprised or endeared by it. We know from experience that Goku should have more layers than this, so when people react with confusion, frustration or attempts to rationalise, I understand completely. They want their favourite character to be better. Ultimately, familial neglect is a form of abuse and it can be jarring for it to be played for laughs rather than treated seriously, but that's just how Toriyama operates. It's better to accept this than furiously rail against something that was never gonna change.

It depends. There are some single-minded obsessions we romanticize to a strong degree in the Western world, and even reward. An example is the whole "hustle culture grindset mindset" stuff. Acquiring wealth and working tirelessly to it is considered a virtue, which goes back to Catholicism and the whole "dignity of work" shit, but that's neither here nor there.

Characters are tools to get certain ideas across. Goku's obsession with fighting and improving himself are so central to his character that "developing out of it" would result in a wholly new character, as far as I'm concerned. It's the central tenet in who he is, and everything else branches off that. I can understand wanting him to be a role model, but he just isn't that kind of character, and that's what makes him interesting to watch.

But also, "cynical" is never a word I would associate with Toriyama's writing. Dragonball is a series where even the most diabolical characters have turnarounds in some way (except Cell, funnily enough). Just this chapter we see Carmine abandon the need for revenge from seeing these people just hanging out. Toriyama's writing in Dragonball is so optimistic about the human condition that it borders on childish (and I would reject the idea that it is).

It's just that Goku is a selfish idiot whose heart is in the right place, and that'll always be him.

[JulieYBM]

I had the re-write this entire posts because I wrote it as if the guy was still alive.

Anyhoo, I think that what the issue was with Toriyama's writing is that his use of his tools was still relatively immature. He only had one way of writing—especially after a while—and it often meant just repeating the same thing over-and-over, which doesn't exactly endear itself on an on-going story. Gokuu being written as careless stops being edgy after thirty years and starts becoming the usual shtick, and that just highlights how bad that kind of behavior is, and how not acknowledging that with real consequences is even more irratating writing.

[Mr Baggins]

I don't think that's "irritating writing" at all. Art consumption being of course subjective, I think that's more engaging than having a straightforward role model for the main protagonist. Real people are flawed, and characters can likewise be flawed. Also, character development needn't be an upward trajectory.

I've mentioned this several times, but Dragon Ball is remarkable for its ability to convey some surprisingly mature themes in palatable, easily digestible ways that a child can understand. You don't need virtuous, likeable, or even perfectly relatable characters to do that, though I'd argue that bored midlife crisis Goku is more relatable than a lot of us would like to admit.

For a more adult example, look no further than David Chase's The Sopranos, a show that communicates the human condition beautifully even though its entire cast consists of the worst human beings imaginable. Not only do these guys never change for the better throughout its half-a-dozen seasons, they actually regress, but even its darker (on the surface) final episode ultimately leaves us with a positive message about appreciating the life we have. I think that's interesting.

Toriyama's work is obviously more uplifting than that, but they both demonstrate the value of presenting their themes, and largely optimistic ones, in less conventional ways than the average writer. That's something to be lauded, not condemned. There are more traditionally heroic stories for audiences more into that kind of thing, but you're just not going to get it from something like Dragon Ball.

I'll leave this off with one of my favorite quotes by Super's very own author:

"Toriyama Sensei said "Dragon Ball is full of weirdos. But in the end, they all end up looking like good people." He didn't say that the characters are good people to begin with. He said that they end up looking like them. I just thought, "I see."" - Toyotaro, 2017

[tonysoprano300]

Ill invoke a little bit of the “Death of the Author” platitude and say that whatever Toriyamas intentions were when writing Goku, its not necessarily congruent with the character that we actually have on the page. At least not consistently, so for myself and many others it does almost come across like a caricature. Its hard for me to picture this Goku being the same one who was not interested in fighting Ginyu or the same one was terrified to learn that there were 2 saiyans superior to Radditz or even the same one that was enraged by the death of Bora.

From a writers POV, it is important to have characters behave in a way that is consistent and if there are changes they need to be justified on a characterization level. Goku isnt Superman but he’s not completely selfish either. I think we’ve actually gotten to a point where even Vegeta is arguably more pragmatic/altruistic

[TKA]

Its hard for me to picture this Goku being the same one who was not interested in fighting Ginyu or the same one was terrified to learn that there were 2 saiyans superior to Radditz or even the same one that was enraged by the death of Bora.

The examples you listed don't seem like an issue with Goku as much as they seem like issues with you..

1. Goku wasn't interested in fighting Ginyu because Frieza was the one who he heard was the strongest. Then he actually met Ginyu and he was way below Goku. The only time a henchman has specifically been a target for Goku was Tambourine, and that's for obvious reasons. He had no interest in fighting Dabra, even though Dabra was stronger than Cell.

2. Goku was terrified, then on Kaio's planet he let it slip that he was also excited to test himself against them.

3. Goku literally swallowed his pride as a warrior to accept everyone's power in order to become a Super Saiyan God and fight Beerus. That's born from the same kind of altruism that would make him resolved to bring Bora back.

It's not a zero sum game. Goku can, simultaneously, see fighting as the thing that interest him most, but also be willing to help others when they come into his sphere of influence.

]From a writers POV, it is important to have characters behave in a way that is consistent and if there are changes they need to be justified on a characterization level.

Goku is written most consistently with the original manga when he is being written in this manga or by Toriyama himself in the movies. The only discrepancies people can find are the small stuff like "Why he no like meditate?" And believe me, that's small stuff.

I think we’ve actually gotten to a point where even Vegeta is arguably more pragmatic/altruistic

Vegeta's been the more pragmatic of the two since the Buu arc. See above about Goku's kindness.

[Alkiser]

You think too much here about things that don't matter, sometimes I think to myself that DB fans live the lives of these characters more than they do. Goku is not the type of character who cares about things, he is out of character a light-hearted ignoramus whose selfish decisions have positive effects on the people around him through his intentions stemming from a pure heart. Goku simply doesn't think about things that are obvious to the average person and only focuses on what is within his interests (see fighting strong guys and being stronger).

[tonysoprano300]

Its hard for me to picture this Goku being the same one who was not interested in fighting Ginyu or the same one was terrified to learn that there were 2 saiyans superior to Radditz or even the same one that was enraged by the death of Bora.

The examples you listed don't seem like an issue with Goku as much as they seem like issues with you..

1. Goku wasn't interested in fighting Ginyu because Frieza was the one who he heard was the strongest. Then he actually met Ginyu and he was way below Goku. The only time a henchman has specifically been a target for Goku was Tambourine, and that's for obvious reasons. He had no interest in fighting Dabra, even though Dabra was stronger than Cell.

2. Goku was terrified, then on Kaio's planet he let it slip that he was also excited to test himself against them.

3. Goku literally swallowed his pride as a warrior to accept everyone's power in order to become a Super Saiyan God and fight Beerus. That's born from the same kind of altruism that would make him resolved to bring Bora back.

It's not a zero sum game. Goku can, simultaneously, see fighting as the thing that interest him most, but also be willing to help others when they come into his sphere of influence.

]From a writers POV, it is important to have characters behave in a way that is consistent and if there are changes they need to be justified on a characterization level.

Goku is written most consistently with the original manga when he is being written in this manga or by Toriyama himself in the movies. The only discrepancies people can find are the small stuff like "Why he no like meditate?" And believe me, that's small stuff.

I think we’ve actually gotten to a point where even Vegeta is arguably more pragmatic/altruistic

Vegeta's been the more pragmatic of the two since the Buu arc. See above about Goku's kindness.

Ok, I can understand the ginyu thing. There’s still Vegeta on earth, who he didn’t want to fight in the beginning and tried to get him to leave after beating Nappa though

Do you know which chapter that line is in? I can’t find it and its seemingly contradictory to him trying to get Vegeta to leave.

I have no issues with BOG Goku, that’s a legitimately solid film.


Manga Goku isn’t really consistent and that’s not even including Super. Goku prior to the end of the saiyan arc wasn’t really a guy who was so obsessed with his own selfish desires that he would actively endanger the earth, at least not in a comparative sense. And even after that point he’s inconsistent about it, in one arc hes so interested in fighting the androids that he allows Gero to make them then the next arc he’s trying to be proactive in making sure that Majin Buu is not born instead of being excited by the prospect of a strong warrior to fight. Its been a problem for a good while now but you still saw enough of his good side to make him human(figuratively speaking). Super is just a more extreme and flanderized version of it imo

Vegeta is more pragmatic starting with Super, in DB Vegeta was extremely rash and egotistical to the point where he can be held responsible for the perils of the earth.

[Alkiser]

Its hard for me to picture this Goku being the same one who was not interested in fighting Ginyu or the same one was terrified to learn that there were 2 saiyans superior to Radditz or even the same one that was enraged by the death of Bora.

The examples you listed don't seem like an issue with Goku as much as they seem like issues with you..

1. Goku wasn't interested in fighting Ginyu because Frieza was the one who he heard was the strongest. Then he actually met Ginyu and he was way below Goku. The only time a henchman has specifically been a target for Goku was Tambourine, and that's for obvious reasons. He had no interest in fighting Dabra, even though Dabra was stronger than Cell.

2. Goku was terrified, then on Kaio's planet he let it slip that he was also excited to test himself against them.

3. Goku literally swallowed his pride as a warrior to accept everyone's power in order to become a Super Saiyan God and fight Beerus. That's born from the same kind of altruism that would make him resolved to bring Bora back.

It's not a zero sum game. Goku can, simultaneously, see fighting as the thing that interest him most, but also be willing to help others when they come into his sphere of influence.

]From a writers POV, it is important to have characters behave in a way that is consistent and if there are changes they need to be justified on a characterization level.

Goku is written most consistently with the original manga when he is being written in this manga or by Toriyama himself in the movies. The only discrepancies people can find are the small stuff like "Why he no like meditate?" And believe me, that's small stuff.

I think we’ve actually gotten to a point where even Vegeta is arguably more pragmatic/altruistic

Vegeta's been the more pragmatic of the two since the Buu arc. See above about Goku's kindness.

Ok, I can understand the ginyu thing. There’s still Vegeta on earth, who he didn’t want to fight in the beginning and tried to get him to leave after beating Nappa though

Do you know which chapter that line is in? I can’t find it and its seemingly contradictory to him trying to get Vegeta to leave.

I have no issues with BOG Goku, that’s a legitimately solid film.


Manga Goku isn’t really consistent and that’s not even including Super. Goku prior to the end of the saiyan arc wasn’t really a guy who was so obsessed with his own selfish desires that he would actively endanger the earth, at least not in a comparative sense. And even after that point he’s inconsistent about it, in one arc hes so interested in fighting the androids that he allows Gero to make them then the next arc he’s trying to be proactive in making sure that Majin Buu is not born instead of being excited by the prospect of a strong warrior to fight. Its been a problem for a good while now but you still saw enough of his good side to make him human(figuratively speaking). Super is just a more extreme and flanderized version of it imo

Vegeta is more pragmatic starting with Super, in DB Vegeta was extremely rash and egotistical to the point where he can be held responsible for the perils of the earth.

Goku in the Majin Buu saga was dead, he would be fine after fighting Buu because he didn't have the ability to do so with his limited time on earth so it doesn't make sense to have a strong enemy if Goku returns to the afterlife and Buu stays on earth. Then at the end of the series once he was alive he wished for the reincarnation of Buu to be able to fight him again.

[tonysoprano300]

The examples you listed don't seem like an issue with Goku as much as they seem like issues with you..

1. Goku wasn't interested in fighting Ginyu because Frieza was the one who he heard was the strongest. Then he actually met Ginyu and he was way below Goku. The only time a henchman has specifically been a target for Goku was Tambourine, and that's for obvious reasons. He had no interest in fighting Dabra, even though Dabra was stronger than Cell.

2. Goku was terrified, then on Kaio's planet he let it slip that he was also excited to test himself against them.

3. Goku literally swallowed his pride as a warrior to accept everyone's power in order to become a Super Saiyan God and fight Beerus. That's born from the same kind of altruism that would make him resolved to bring Bora back.

It's not a zero sum game. Goku can, simultaneously, see fighting as the thing that interest him most, but also be willing to help others when they come into his sphere of influence.



Goku is written most consistently with the original manga when he is being written in this manga or by Toriyama himself in the movies. The only discrepancies people can find are the small stuff like "Why he no like meditate?" And believe me, that's small stuff.



Vegeta's been the more pragmatic of the two since the Buu arc. See above about Goku's kindness.

Ok, I can understand the ginyu thing. There’s still Vegeta on earth, who he didn’t want to fight in the beginning and tried to get him to leave after beating Nappa though

Do you know which chapter that line is in? I can’t find it and its seemingly contradictory to him trying to get Vegeta to leave.

I have no issues with BOG Goku, that’s a legitimately solid film.


Manga Goku isn’t really consistent and that’s not even including Super. Goku prior to the end of the saiyan arc wasn’t really a guy who was so obsessed with his own selfish desires that he would actively endanger the earth, at least not in a comparative sense. And even after that point he’s inconsistent about it, in one arc hes so interested in fighting the androids that he allows Gero to make them then the next arc he’s trying to be proactive in making sure that Majin Buu is not born instead of being excited by the prospect of a strong warrior to fight. Its been a problem for a good while now but you still saw enough of his good side to make him human(figuratively speaking). Super is just a more extreme and flanderized version of it imo

Vegeta is more pragmatic starting with Super, in DB Vegeta was extremely rash and egotistical to the point where he can be held responsible for the perils of the earth.

Goku in the Majin Buu saga was dead, he would be fine after fighting Buu because he didn't have the ability to do so with his limited time on earth so it doesn't make sense to have a strong enemy if Goku returns to the afterlife and Buu stays on earth. Then at the end of the series once he was alive he wished for the reincarnation of Buu to be able to fight him again.

Whole reason he even came back was because of the world martial arts tournament though, and he could easily use the dragon balls anytime he wants so thats not really a restriction.

[LoganForkHands73]

It depends. There are some single-minded obsessions we romanticize to a strong degree in the Western world, and even reward. An example is the whole "hustle culture grindset mindset" stuff. Acquiring wealth and working tirelessly to it is considered a virtue, which goes back to Catholicism and the whole "dignity of work" shit, but that's neither here nor there.

Characters are tools to get certain ideas across. Goku's obsession with fighting and improving himself are so central to his character that "developing out of it" would result in a wholly new character, as far as I'm concerned. It's the central tenet in who he is, and everything else branches off that. I can understand wanting him to be a role model, but he just isn't that kind of character, and that's what makes him interesting to watch.

True, there are definitely counterexamples in pop culture. I think back to some statements Toriyama has made about the Dragon Ball world being "nothing but fighting", to his partial regret. In this framework, Goku's obsession with fighting and thereby obeying the narrative law of the setting might be seen as the only rational way of living. It's interesting how Toriyama's outlook on that changed over the years. By the Buu arc, you can definitely sense his irritation at the arbitrary limitations of the Dragon Ball "brand", as it came to eventuate, and that vibe continues many decades later in Dragon Ball Super and other projects.

But also, "cynical" is never a word I would associate with Toriyama's writing. Dragonball is a series where even the most diabolical characters have turnarounds in some way (except Cell, funnily enough). Just this chapter we see Carmine abandon the need for revenge from seeing these people just hanging out. Toriyama's writing in Dragonball is so optimistic about the human condition that it borders on childish (and I would reject the idea that it is).

I think there are strong traces of cynicism and world-weariness in Toriyama's work, even when he tries to put forward more optimistic messages. Many of the villains who turn over new leaves rarely do so out of pure altruism and that applies to Carmine in this latest chapter. Sure, he finally decides to go straight with Red Pharma and he'll likely do more good for the world, but it's only because he's scared shitless of the Saiyans' absurd power and no longer sees any profit in world domination. If this chapter marks another longer hiatus, that feels like a very apt capstone - something good happens, but not for any particularly virtuous reasons.

Toriyama may not be a very deeply philosophical guy, but we can glean a lot from the characters he claimed to relate to most. Muten Roshi represents his goofy, pervy side. Piccolo represents his grumpy, solitary, and down-to-earth nature, as well as his refusal to sugarcoat anything with meaningless flair. IDK if he's ever said anything about Omori from Jaco, but I think Omori's bitter rant about humanity being weak, rotten and selfish, though not so bad that they deserve annihilation, captures Toriyama's mentality quite well. As much as Toriyama loves Goku, he doesn't particularly relate to or "approve" of the character. There's that joint interview where (IIRC) he and Masako Nozawa were asked what the world would be like if more people were like Goku. Nozawa gives a safe, maudlin response that the world would be a wonderful garden of paradise. Toriyama just mutters something like "I think it would cause quite a few problems (laughs)". You can probably chalk that up to the anime's more heroic interpretation or whatever else, but I just find it funny.

I think Toriyama was the kind of person who just wished the world was simpler and less phoney than it often is. He wrote stories about flawed heroes saving the world from evil forces, but if the question of "why" ever came into play, it's like there wasn't ever a detailed answer beyond "humanity lowkey kinda stinks sometimes, but they make good ramen so saving them is probably the right thing to do, I guess".

[Ten na nGael]

LoganForkHands73 and TKA just to say you've written some very good posts over the course of this thread. I've really enjoyed them. A small question:

except Cell, funnily enough

Why do you think Cell was written as an exception to this general trend? It's something I wondered about a bit myself.

[LoganForkHands73]

LoganForkHands73 and TKA just to say you've written some very good posts over the course of this thread. I've really enjoyed them. A small question:

except Cell, funnily enough

Why do you think Cell was written as an exception to this general trend? It's something I wondered about a bit myself.

Thank you, also give a shout out to Baggins, Julie, Alkiser and tonysoprano (never had the makings of a varsity athlete, that guy), they always make great contributions

[Lukmendes]

Nah, that would be an abysmal point. Toriyama historically gave zero fucks about continuity or what other writers were doing with his characters, and outside of an arc or two, was more deeply involved in the manga for the majority of its run until now.

As Toyotaro has repeatedly mentioned, his goal is to write and draw Super as Toriyama would have envisioned it. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Hm, yeah makes sense.

Thanks but the meme wasn’t directed at you, I agree with most of what you’re saying here. The complaints about the current state of Goku’s characterisation aren’t all unfounded, but Toriyama has been consistent in this direction since 2013 and it does seem to be a pointed reaction against the popular conception of Goku’s character.

While it did seem to be a reaction of popular view of Goku, it also seems Toriyama likes to make his worse traits even worse over time.

All the way back in the original manga, we had Goku fighting opponents who casually outclassed him in Tao Pai Pai and old king Piccolo, and Goku was only stressed over how strong they were.

Compare this with Vegeta, who similarly outclassed him, but Goku was actually excited over it.

In the original manga we had situations where he got worse but then got better then worse again, which made him a bit messy, and then Super came along and overall just made him worse.

So yeah, Toriyama has been consistent about it, but still it makes Goku feel pretty flanderized...

To expand on my above points (had to be swift with my last reply), I've been thinking about what exactly discomforts people, myself included, about the low value Goku places on his friends and family. The ones who can't fight well, anyway. I say "discomfort" because I've started to think that's really the root of it, more than the general sentiments of frustration about writing inconsistency or whatever else. The idea of an otherwise likeable main protagonist always dropping not-so-subtle hints that he doesn't show care or affection for his loved ones unless they're actively entertaining his preferred hobby is... disheartening, sometimes. There aren't many protagonists, especially in shonen fiction, quite like Akira Toriyama's Son Goku. I appreciate the commitment to keeping him unique among a sea of cookie-cutter teenaged heroes who Fight For Their Friends.

Honestly I have more of a problem over how inconsistent he looks. If Goku was on a similar level of asshole in the original manga as he is in Super then I'd have less issues with it, but since he acted in a different way back then compared to now, he just feels like a parody of himself who has more downsides than upsides with little of the nuance he used to have.

I wrote a few long comments in one of the Gen Discussion posts talking about Goku's character and motivations in the Buu arc, I concluded with the realisation that Goku's life without fighting is quite depressing and empty. It's like what Baggins said, Goku, from the death of Pure Buu to the debut of Uub, is doing everything he can to stave off crippling boredom. The usual frantic pace of the manga sometimes obscures this. He still appreciates his pals just fine, but except for Vegeta (and a few others, per the latest developments), they can't give him the consistent stimulation he craves, so he neglects them, culminating in him failing to visit Bulma for five several years.

Goku never really visited anyone unless they had something he needed or they called him up. All the way back in saiyan saga he didn't bother visiting Bulma or Roshi since the 23rd tournament to the point they didn't even know he had a kid. Dialogue from androids saga also suggests they didn't visit each at all too.

He decided to stay in Yardrat for an year to learn their techniques too.

I think this "Goku doesn't visit" is just part of his character, he's pretty okay with not seeing someone for years since he doesn't specifically miss them that much, but if they show up he won't be against it.

There's that joint interview where (IIRC) he and Masako Nozawa were asked what the world would be like if more people were like Goku. Nozawa gives a safe, maudlin response that the world would be a wonderful garden of paradise. Toriyama just mutters something like "I think it would cause quite a few problems (laughs)". You can probably chalk that up to the anime's more heroic interpretation or whatever else, but I just find it funny.

That sounds hilarious lol.

[LoganForkHands73]

While it did seem to be a reaction of popular view of Goku, it also seems Toriyama likes to make his worse traits even worse over time.

All the way back in the original manga, we had Goku fighting opponents who casually outclassed him in Tao Pai Pai and old king Piccolo, and Goku was only stressed over how strong they were.

Compare this with Vegeta, who similarly outclassed him, but Goku was actually excited over it.

In the original manga we had situations where he got worse but then got better then worse again, which made him a bit messy, and then Super came along and overall just made him worse.

So yeah, Toriyama has been consistent about it, but still it makes Goku feel pretty flanderized...

Honestly I have more of a problem over how inconsistent he looks. If Goku was on a similar level of asshole in the original manga as he is in Super then I'd have less issues with it, but since he acted in a different way back then compared to now, he just feels like a parody of himself who has more downsides than upsides with little of the nuance he used to have.

I think, as TKA said, it's probably just a result of time changing people. By 2013, Toriyama hadn't consistently written Goku for many years, so there was bound to be some flanderization compared to the original run. On some level, Toriyama did seem to be shadow-boxing against The Mainstream View of Goku® with his own scrappy, flawed, anti-heroic version he claims he always wanted to put across. Toriyama was always looking for gag opportunities and he'd always take them no matter how little sense they logically make.

Goku never really visited anyone unless they had something he needed or they called him up. All the way back in saiyan saga he didn't bother visiting Bulma or Roshi since the 23rd tournament to the point they didn't even know he had a kid. Dialogue from androids saga also suggests they didn't visit each at all too.

He decided to stay in Yardrat for an year to learn their techniques too.

I think this "Goku doesn't visit" is just part of his character, he's pretty okay with not seeing someone for years since he doesn't specifically miss them that much, but if they show up he won't be against it.

True, and I've always been fascinated by the Z-Warriors long-distance friendship, too. They've probably interacted more regularly in the 5-ish year timeframe of Super than they did across several in-universe decades in the original manga. Some of the strongest friendships are the ones where you don't have to see the person for years, but when you meet again, it's like no time passed at all. Though Bulma seems more pissed at Goku in their last reunion compared to some of the previous ones. I imagine Bulma and Vegeta reached out to Goku many times, but he flaked on them whenever they made plans to hang out... probably because fighting tournaments and massive buffets weren't involved. No fight and no food make Goku a dull boy.

There's that joint interview where (IIRC) he and Masako Nozawa were asked what the world would be like if more people were like Goku. Nozawa gives a safe, maudlin response that the world would be a wonderful garden of paradise. Toriyama just mutters something like "I think it would cause quite a few problems (laughs)". You can probably chalk that up to the anime's more heroic interpretation or whatever else, but I just find it funny.

That sounds hilarious lol.

I found it: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... cial-talk/

I'm surprised, it was from the same interview where Toriyama talks about Goku having "poisonous" traits. Turns out Nozawa was the one who first brought up the topic that everyone in the world should be more like Goku, lol. Interestingly, Toriyama also talks about relating somewhat to Goku's humble, does-what-he-wants attitude. Though I still get the feeling that Toriyama doesn't view Goku as much of an "author avatar" character in the same way as some others.

[Mr Baggins]

I think, as TKA said, it's probably just a result of time changing people. By 2013, Toriyama hadn't consistently written Goku for many years, so there was bound to be some flanderization compared to the original run.

I'd have to disagree that it has anything to do with that. In EoZ, the "poison" that Toriyama talks about is at its absolute height. People of the #NotMyGoku variety will no doubt deny this, but I think it's 100% the case that if those final two chapters were never written in 1995 and instead released today under the Super brand, they would collectively lose their minds.

Goku's action there is by far the most outrageously dickish thing he does to his family, ever, and it's straight from the original series. It's such a dick move that the anime even tries to downplay it by having him say his goodbyes to Pan, which he doesn't do in the manga.

Again, Super's job is to show the events that led up to that moment. It does this very well. Goku does change in subtle ways throughout continuity and even the original run, just clearly not in the direction that some people wanted. That's too bad. It's only made him a more interesting character, as far as I'm concerned.

Also, fuck it, I'm just gonna say it (and this isn't aimed at you): Roland Barthes' essay and its consequences have been a disaster for contemporary literary critique.

Interestingly, Toriyama also talks about relating somewhat to Goku's humble, does-what-he-wants attitude.

What's funny is that this is basically the same attitude we've been discussing in this thread. I think it's more accurate to say that there's a little bit of Toriyama in all of his characters, even if he favors Piccolo.

You're correct that there's a touch of cynicism in Toriyama's worldview though, which is particularly apparent in his more modern works like Jaco and Sand Land. With that said, it's still abundantly clear that the actual morals of these stories are positive.

[LoganForkHands73]

I'd have to disagree that it has anything to do with that. In EoZ, the "poison" that Toriyama talks about is at its absolute height. People of the #NotMyGoku variety will no doubt deny this, but I think it's 100% the case that if those final two chapters were never written in 1995 and instead released today under the Super brand, they would collectively lose their minds.

Goku's action there is by far the most outrageously dickish thing he does to his family, ever, and it's straight from the original series. It's such a dick move that the anime even tries to downplay it by having him say his goodbyes to Pan, which he doesn't do in the manga.

Again, Super's job is to show the events that led up to that moment. It does this very well. Goku does change in subtle ways throughout continuity and even the original run, just clearly not in the direction that some people wanted. That's too bad. It's only made him a more interesting character, as far as I'm concerned.

You can see the dickish side earlier during the battle against Pure Buu when Goku suddenly starts acting like a right cocky bastard. It's true that no amount of forgetting family members' names can probably compare to the act of abandoning them completely, though the flanderisation aspect also applies to Goku's intelligence level. I know it's an absolute dead horse topic, but I still really struggle to imagine Goku moaning about Vegeta's boring training methods in the original manga, even towards the end, even for the purpose of a silly joke, it just feels wrong. If there's anyone who could deduce the secret to Jiren's strength, it would be Goku. I mean, Vegeta can do it too, but Goku wouldn't look all bewildered by the explanation. Gah.

But I think the changing times thing applies just as much to Toriyama during the original serialisation as much as after it. His writing continuously evolved in different directions.

Also, fuck it, I'm just gonna say it (and this isn't aimed at you): Roland Barthes' essay and its consequences have been a disaster for contemporary literary critique.

What, Death of the Author? Eh, I think it has its place, the main issue is when people namedrop it as an excuse to peddle whatever made-up narrative or argument they want without any evidence in the text.

You're correct that there's a touch of cynicism in Toriyama's worldview though, which is particularly apparent in his more modern works like Jaco and Sand Land. With that said, it's still abundantly clear that the actual morals of these stories are positive.

What I like best is when that same cynicism is used to positive effect. I think in Toriyama's world, most people have selfish ulterior motives behind acts of good they do, but if pointed (sometimes forcibly) in the right direction, they can be more effective tools for the greater good. And from a distance, it might look close enough to an act of "pure" good that nobody questions the difference. I think that quote from Toyotaro and Toriyama you posted a while ago summarises that quite well.

Phew. This would make a really good thread of its own but I'm kinda worn out talking about it. Sorry for taking over the thread, there.

[Lukmendes]

I think, as TKA said, it's probably just a result of time changing people. By 2013, Toriyama hadn't consistently written Goku for many years, so there was bound to be some flanderization compared to the original run. On some level, Toriyama did seem to be shadow-boxing against The Mainstream View of Goku® with his own scrappy, flawed, anti-heroic version he claims he always wanted to put across. Toriyama was always looking for gag opportunities and he'd always take them no matter how little sense they logically make.

Yeah time definitely did change Toriyama's writing (Even his style of gags became different over time), but my point is that, again, even in the original run Toriyama had a habit of making Goku worse as a person over time, so the way he writes Goku in Super is in a way a continuation of it.

True, and I've always been fascinated by the Z-Warriors long-distance friendship, too. They've probably interacted more regularly in the 5-ish year timeframe of Super than they did across several in-universe decades in the original manga. Some of the strongest friendships are the ones where you don't have to see the person for years, but when you meet again, it's like no time passed at all. Though Bulma seems more pissed at Goku in their last reunion compared to some of the previous ones. I imagine Bulma and Vegeta reached out to Goku many times, but he flaked on them whenever they made plans to hang out... probably because fighting tournaments and massive buffets weren't involved. No fight and no food make Goku a dull boy.

The way she says it really sounds like she expects Goku to visit and gets pissed with how long it takes for him to visit, doesn't sound like she likes going out of her way to visit him or that he missed a date.

I found it: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... cial-talk/

I'm surprised, it was from the same interview where Toriyama talks about Goku having "poisonous" traits. Turns out Nozawa was the one who first brought up the topic that everyone in the world should be more like Goku, lol. Interestingly, Toriyama also talks about relating somewhat to Goku's humble, does-what-he-wants attitude. Though I still get the feeling that Toriyama doesn't view Goku as much of an "author avatar" character in the same way as some others.

It's hilarious Nozawa didn't know she got Gohan's role until she was reading the script lol.

[Vectur123]

Nah, that would be an abysmal point. Toriyama historically gave zero fucks about continuity or what other writers were doing with his characters, and outside of an arc or two, was more deeply involved in the manga for the majority of its run until now.

As Toyotaro has repeatedly mentioned, his goal is to write and draw Super as Toriyama would have envisioned it. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Hm, yeah makes sense.

Thanks but the meme wasn’t directed at you, I agree with most of what you’re saying here. The complaints about the current state of Goku’s characterisation aren’t all unfounded, but Toriyama has been consistent in this direction since 2013 and it does seem to be a pointed reaction against the popular conception of Goku’s character.

While it did seem to be a reaction of popular view of Goku, it also seems Toriyama likes to make his worse traits even worse over time.

All the way back in the original manga, we had Goku fighting opponents who casually outclassed him in Tao Pai Pai and old king Piccolo, and Goku was only stressed over how strong they were.

Compare this with Vegeta, who similarly outclassed him, but Goku was actually excited over it.

In the original manga we had situations where he got worse but then got better then worse again, which made him a bit messy, and then Super came along and overall just made him worse.

So yeah, Toriyama has been consistent about it, but still it makes Goku feel pretty flanderized...

To expand on my above points (had to be swift with my last reply), I've been thinking about what exactly discomforts people, myself included, about the low value Goku places on his friends and family. The ones who can't fight well, anyway. I say "discomfort" because I've started to think that's really the root of it, more than the general sentiments of frustration about writing inconsistency or whatever else. The idea of an otherwise likeable main protagonist always dropping not-so-subtle hints that he doesn't show care or affection for his loved ones unless they're actively entertaining his preferred hobby is... disheartening, sometimes. There aren't many protagonists, especially in shonen fiction, quite like Akira Toriyama's Son Goku. I appreciate the commitment to keeping him unique among a sea of cookie-cutter teenaged heroes who Fight For Their Friends.

Honestly I have more of a problem over how inconsistent he looks. If Goku was on a similar level of asshole in the original manga as he is in Super then I'd have less issues with it, but since he acted in a different way back then compared to now, he just feels like a parody of himself who has more downsides than upsides with little of the nuance he used to have.

I wrote a few long comments in one of the Gen Discussion posts talking about Goku's character and motivations in the Buu arc, I concluded with the realisation that Goku's life without fighting is quite depressing and empty. It's like what Baggins said, Goku, from the death of Pure Buu to the debut of Uub, is doing everything he can to stave off crippling boredom. The usual frantic pace of the manga sometimes obscures this. He still appreciates his pals just fine, but except for Vegeta (and a few others, per the latest developments), they can't give him the consistent stimulation he craves, so he neglects them, culminating in him failing to visit Bulma for five several years.

Goku never really visited anyone unless they had something he needed or they called him up. All the way back in saiyan saga he didn't bother visiting Bulma or Roshi since the 23rd tournament to the point they didn't even know he had a kid. Dialogue from androids saga also suggests they didn't visit each at all too.

He decided to stay in Yardrat for an year to learn their techniques too.

I think this "Goku doesn't visit" is just part of his character, he's pretty okay with not seeing someone for years since he doesn't specifically miss them that much, but if they show up he won't be against it.

There's that joint interview where (IIRC) he and Masako Nozawa were asked what the world would be like if more people were like Goku. Nozawa gives a safe, maudlin response that the world would be a wonderful garden of paradise. Toriyama just mutters something like "I think it would cause quite a few problems (laughs)". You can probably chalk that up to the anime's more heroic interpretation or whatever else, but I just find it funny.

That sounds hilarious lol.

That's my problem with Super Goku, seems like Toriyama wanted to write him with the childhood personality he used to had, kinda dumb and innocent, but Goku grew up since the early arcs, he changed and became more mature over the time, even in OG Dragon Ball he seems more serious when there's serious stuff happening, now in Super he basically was the motive of the destruction of multiple universes and really didn't care about it.

[Alkiser]

Just to add from myself Toyotaro's post on Threads regarding Toriyama and Goku, I'm not sure what he was referring to although I can guess.

"I wonder if Mr. Toriyama didn't like the trend of Goku being made into a saint...".


https://www.threads.net/@toyotaro_vjump ... xeqvSRxw-/

[Alkiser]

Nah, that would be an abysmal point. Toriyama historically gave zero fucks about continuity or what other writers were doing with his characters, and outside of an arc or two, was more deeply involved in the manga for the majority of its run until now.

As Toyotaro has repeatedly mentioned, his goal is to write and draw Super as Toriyama would have envisioned it. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Hm, yeah makes sense.

Thanks but the meme wasn’t directed at you, I agree with most of what you’re saying here. The complaints about the current state of Goku’s characterisation aren’t all unfounded, but Toriyama has been consistent in this direction since 2013 and it does seem to be a pointed reaction against the popular conception of Goku’s character.

While it did seem to be a reaction of popular view of Goku, it also seems Toriyama likes to make his worse traits even worse over time.

All the way back in the original manga, we had Goku fighting opponents who casually outclassed him in Tao Pai Pai and old king Piccolo, and Goku was only stressed over how strong they were.

Compare this with Vegeta, who similarly outclassed him, but Goku was actually excited over it.

In the original manga we had situations where he got worse but then got better then worse again, which made him a bit messy, and then Super came along and overall just made him worse.

So yeah, Toriyama has been consistent about it, but still it makes Goku feel pretty flanderized...

To expand on my above points (had to be swift with my last reply), I've been thinking about what exactly discomforts people, myself included, about the low value Goku places on his friends and family. The ones who can't fight well, anyway. I say "discomfort" because I've started to think that's really the root of it, more than the general sentiments of frustration about writing inconsistency or whatever else. The idea of an otherwise likeable main protagonist always dropping not-so-subtle hints that he doesn't show care or affection for his loved ones unless they're actively entertaining his preferred hobby is... disheartening, sometimes. There aren't many protagonists, especially in shonen fiction, quite like Akira Toriyama's Son Goku. I appreciate the commitment to keeping him unique among a sea of cookie-cutter teenaged heroes who Fight For Their Friends.

Honestly I have more of a problem over how inconsistent he looks. If Goku was on a similar level of asshole in the original manga as he is in Super then I'd have less issues with it, but since he acted in a different way back then compared to now, he just feels like a parody of himself who has more downsides than upsides with little of the nuance he used to have.

I wrote a few long comments in one of the Gen Discussion posts talking about Goku's character and motivations in the Buu arc, I concluded with the realisation that Goku's life without fighting is quite depressing and empty. It's like what Baggins said, Goku, from the death of Pure Buu to the debut of Uub, is doing everything he can to stave off crippling boredom. The usual frantic pace of the manga sometimes obscures this. He still appreciates his pals just fine, but except for Vegeta (and a few others, per the latest developments), they can't give him the consistent stimulation he craves, so he neglects them, culminating in him failing to visit Bulma for five several years.

Goku never really visited anyone unless they had something he needed or they called him up. All the way back in saiyan saga he didn't bother visiting Bulma or Roshi since the 23rd tournament to the point they didn't even know he had a kid. Dialogue from androids saga also suggests they didn't visit each at all too.

He decided to stay in Yardrat for an year to learn their techniques too.

I think this "Goku doesn't visit" is just part of his character, he's pretty okay with not seeing someone for years since he doesn't specifically miss them that much, but if they show up he won't be against it.

There's that joint interview where (IIRC) he and Masako Nozawa were asked what the world would be like if more people were like Goku. Nozawa gives a safe, maudlin response that the world would be a wonderful garden of paradise. Toriyama just mutters something like "I think it would cause quite a few problems (laughs)". You can probably chalk that up to the anime's more heroic interpretation or whatever else, but I just find it funny.

That sounds hilarious lol.

That's my problem with Super Goku, seems like Toriyama wanted to write him with the childhood personality he used to had, kinda dumb and innocent, but Goku grew up since the early arcs, he changed and became more mature over the time, even in OG Dragon Ball he seems more serious when there's serious stuff happening, now in Super he basically was the motive of the destruction of multiple universes and really didn't care about it.

Really?

How many times can you say that Goku gave the other universes a chance to survive in the tournament because Zeno was already planning to destroy those universes. I get the feeling that people are reading this story the way they want it to sound and not the way it really is.