Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Even with some improvement for Broly right now he still isn't even close to Beerus level! What type of monster Toriyama got in Beerus here.

[Hugo Boss]

But I've also come to doubt how i viewed Broly at his max in the broly arc. If whis is correct in that broly has had "some growth" until now, then how strong was Broly in the manga at his peak against SSB Gogeta? I had him at the bottom of the barrel of Hakaishin strength, on par with UI Goku and Jiren from the T.o.P. but this seems go imply him to have had been much stronger.

Broly in chapter #103 likely just scratched the surface of his true power, since he needs to practice more fighting while controlling his anger, like Gohan did. I would say he was still stronger when he fought Gogeta and only with due time he will master that level soon enough. So, stronger than Beerus, like Toriyama envisioned in the movie.

[ZombieVito]

In the manga, Black's Rosé seems to function as the equivalent of Blue, but in the anime, it seems like it's just his equivalent of Super Saiyan. You could have argued this already because his base form was already strong enough to contend with SS2 Goku and later even SSB Vegeta, but in Heroes we see him ascend into SSR2 and SSR3, which all but confirms it considering Goku and Vegeta are unable to do the same with Blue and Vegeta tapped into a different evolution method.

So if Black actually ascended past SSR in the regular anime, how strong would he be assuming 2 and 3 still follow the standard SSx2 and SS2x4 multipliers? This would likely still place him below Kaioken x10 SSB Goku, right?

Yeah. Either Blue Kaioken 10 or 20 depending on how strong you have him compared to Goku by the end of the arc.

[QuakingStar]

"I see some bad takes" Nobody said Broly didn't have more power to tap into, lest he go berserk in doing so. When both were are their controlled forms Gohan had the edge obviously.

Gohan's surprise is at Broly's power AS A SUPER SAIYAN and he even points out Brolys Super Saiyan is not like the others. You know who didn't see or fight Broly before this day? Gohan so of course he wouldn't know about it, he only knew that Broly was strong.

Gohan was also nowhere near his best when he got to Broly, seems reaching the point before going Berserk earlier zapped his stamina.

[Miracles]

Gohan was the only one considered for the god of destruction position along with Goku/Vegeta. Not Broly, even after Whis seen this guy twice. Broly even being stronger than his past version of SSJ [against Gogeta] can't even garner such attention from the gods still.
The fact that broly can't control his power so well now shows how weak he really is and was compared to Beerus.

[Kenneth La Torre]

But I've also come to doubt how i viewed Broly at his max in the broly arc. If whis is correct in that broly has had "some growth" until now, then how strong was Broly in the manga at his peak against SSB Gogeta? I had him at the bottom of the barrel of Hakaishin strength, on par with UI Goku and Jiren from the T.o.P. but this seems go imply him to have had been much stronger.

Broly in chapter #103 likely just scratched the surface of his true power, since he needs to practice more fighting while controlling his anger, like Gohan did. I would say he was still stronger when he fought Gogeta and only with due time he will master that level soon enough. So, stronger than Beerus, like Toriyama envisioned in the movie.

I say he was stronger when he fought gogeta too, only because he seems to have a second form in the manga as well, one where he is also much bigger and buffer, same hair color tho. But if that werent the case, id say this version wad somewhat superior.

I think this controlled version of his ssj form is MUCH stronger than his initial ssj form with his armor intact from the broly arc tho, like a lot more. Has to be since he is on par with people who dwarf cell max in power.

[Mr Baggins]

"I see some bad takes"

Correct. I also see some bad faith. If you're going to address a point I made, you can respond to me directly. The quote feature exists for a reason.

Yes, there are bad and self-evidently biased takes from at least a couple of users in this thread. My post didn't quote or single anyone out because it wasn't aimed at any single person, wasn't meant to target anyone, and was just a general contribution to the topic.

Gohan's surprise is at Broly's power AS A SUPER SAIYAN

No, his surprise was at Broly's power period. That's what he explicitly says. The line about his Super Saiyan being the best was a separate but related thought and dialogue bubble. Both things can be true.

He also wouldn't have reacted the way he did (sweating facial expression and all) if the intent was just "Oh you're good for a Super Saiyan I guess". There's no need to twist what the writers are doing just because you favor a specific character.

Gohan was also nowhere near his best when he got to Broly, seems reaching the point before going Berserk earlier zapped his stamina.

Yeah, no. Saying his stamina was "zapped" or that he was "nowhere near his best" is clearly reaching – all that's said is that he still has gas left in the tank, a vague colloquial phrase that means he still has stamina without specifying how much or how little. The chapter doesn't suggest or even imply anywhere that Gohan was running on fumes or that there was supposed to be some significant gap between Gohan and Broly, especially in raw power. Vegeta wanting his turn suggests he had more than enough strength left.

[Kenneth La Torre]

User above is right. Gohan was OK when fighting Broly. At best, you could argue he fought broly using the power of his non-boosted Beast form that two shotted UI Goku, but he definitely was not weaker.

[Mr Baggins]

Also, I want to be clear that I'm not even disagreeing that Gohan had the edge against Broly, even though that edge was attributed more to Gohan's experience than his power.

I think most of us would concur he's at the top right now. The gap between him and the others just isn't as wide as a lot of us may have thought prior to these chapters, mainly because Goku and Vegeta have improved that much since the last arc.

[QuakingStar]

"I see some bad takes"

Correct. I also see some bad faith. If you're going to address a point I made, you can respond to me directly. The quote feature exists for a reason.

Yes, there are bad and self-evidently biased takes from at least a couple of users in this thread. My post didn't quote or single anyone out because it wasn't aimed at any single person, wasn't meant to target anyone, and was just a general contribution to the topic.

Gohan's surprise is at Broly's power AS A SUPER SAIYAN

No, his surprise was at Broly's power period. That's what he explicitly says. The line about his Super Saiyan being the best was a separate but related thought and dialogue bubble. Both things can be true.

He also wouldn't have reacted the way he did (sweating facial expression and all) if the intent was just "Oh you're good for a Super Saiyan I guess". There's no need to twist what the writers are doing just because you favor a specific character.

Gohan was also nowhere near his best when he got to Broly, seems reaching the point before going Berserk earlier zapped his stamina.

Yeah, no. Saying his stamina was "zapped" or that he was "nowhere near his best" is clearly reaching – all that's said is that he still has gas left in the tank, a vague colloquial phrase that means he still has stamina without specifying how much or how little. The chapter doesn't suggest or even imply anywhere that Gohan was running on fumes or that there was supposed to be some significant gap between Gohan and Broly, especially in raw power. Vegeta wanting his turn suggests he had more than enough strength left.

Let me get one thing clear to you, I only didn't quote you because I forgot to use the quote feature. You are the literal last person I'd ever be worried about.

You ignore how Gohan had no reaction to base Broly but only a reaction once he turned SS.

Before he even sparred Broly Goku asked if Gohan still had some gas left in the tank and he said he did. That directly implies he was low on stamina because he clearly had enough KI to enter Ultimate and Beast whereas we see vs Cell Max that when he is low on KI he can't use Ultimate, and NO Vegeta wanting a turn did not suggest Gohan had tons of stamina. Vegeta even chose to use PSSB(or Blue Evolved depending on the official color chapter) to spar him showing that Gohans power and likely stamina both dropped a good margin because of his spar with Goku and NO this does not mean 10% power left or 30% left. He clearly was low ENOUGH that Goku made his comment and Vegeta chose to use PSSB(or SSBE) to spar him. You want to talk about bad takes and bad faith but then you come in and type that junk.

For Gohans "sweating facial expression" it was one sweat bead and then he proceeded to comment on Broly's SS form and then swing him into a tree.

Gohan is most certainly not my favorite character, and neither is Broly. So don't even try that nonsense

[QuakingStar]

Also, I want to be clear that I'm not even disagreeing that Gohan had the edge against Broly, even though that edge was attributed more to Gohan's experience than his power.

I think most of us would concur he's at the top right now. The gap between him and the others just isn't as wide as a lot of us may have thought prior to these chapters, mainly because Goku and Vegeta have improved that much since the last arc.

This I agree on somewhat. Vegeta already made it clear that at the level of power they are all at it's more about their skill and control with their own power because they are all not so far apart anymore. Gohan just happens to have the higher level of power between them all even if it's only a PL of 1,000 or 10,000 over them. While Goku and Vegeta are far and away more skilled and experienced than either Gohan or Broly.

[Mr Baggins]

Let me get one thing clear to you, I only didn't quote you because I forgot to use the quote feature. You are the literal last person I'd ever be worried about.

My man, we're anonymous people on a forum discussing a Japanese kid's comic. I dunno what's giving you the impression I think you're "worried" about me, whatever that means. I'm asking you to quote me directly because it's easier to engage when I'm notified; I almost missed your post.

Anyway, let's throw out all the silly back-and-forthing and weird hostility and just focus on this bit:

This I agree on somewhat.

Then we agree in general, since that's the point I've been making since the post you initially responded to. Gohan's reactions are the text's way of illustrating that all four of these guys are in the same ballpark, or as you put it yourself, that they're not so far apart anymore. For Goku, what impressed Gohan was his evasive ability when using Ultra Instinct. For Broly, what impressed Gohan was his raw power after going Super Saiyan.

The basic idea is that everyone found their own paths and ways to compete here. Broly has the brute strength, consistent with Toriyama's statements about him, while Goku has the skills and experience that Broly lacks. Gohan's balance of both of these qualities is enough to give him the edge over everyone else.

The exact order after Gohan is anyone's guess. There are some pretty good arguments for multiple orders, and the chapter itself seems to make the case that there's probably no single correct answer.

[Hugo Boss]

I disagree about Gohan being ahead of Goku mostly because, while Gohan has been practicing with his new form, Goku has a much better control over Ultra Instinct. So, the thrust of the chapter for me is that Gohan has more power and speed, but Goku has more experience and control over his skills, which makes them on par with each other but for different reasons.

(Basically a homage to Kid Goku vs. Jackie Chun)

[Block88]

I disagree about Gohan being ahead of Goku mostly because, while Gohan has been practicing with his new form, Goku has a much better control over Ultra Instinct. So, the thrust of the chapter for me is that Gohan has more power and speed, but Goku has more experience and control over his skills, which makes them on par with each other but for different reasons.

(Basically a homage to Kid Goku vs. Jackie Chun)

Pretty much

[QuakingStar]

I disagree about Gohan being ahead of Goku mostly because, while Gohan has been practicing with his new form, Goku has a much better control over Ultra Instinct. So, the thrust of the chapter for me is that Gohan has more power and speed, but Goku has more experience and control over his skills, which makes them on par with each other but for different reasons.

(Basically a homage to Kid Goku vs. Jackie Chun)

Overall, this I agree with. BUT as with the other comment I don't believe the power differences are so massive anymore. They are all now in the same "tier" but Gohan just happens to be at the top of it in terms of power and speed, while Goku's use of skill and experience along with UI's Auto Ability put him even with Gohan(when Gohan is not able to use his true full Beast power at least, as he clearly still needs to master that)

Gohan can already sense the multiplier that all other Super Saiyans get, from normal Super Saiyan to the "Super Saiyan Fourth Grade" and he was not all that surprised by Broly's base power. His surprise came at the power that Broly's unique Super Saiyan brought about even exclaiming it is unlike anybody elses Super Saiyan. Goku even thought Broly went berserk when he used this power so it shows that this is literally the controlled version of his berserk SS he just has not mastered it yet.

So yeah all four are in the same tier. Goku and Vegeta are far and away the most experienced and skilled, while Gohan has the highest power and speed.

What I am interested in is where Piccolo will now sit within it because Piccolo has more experience and skill than Gohan and Broly and his power is supposed to be in that tier now.

[Mr Baggins]

Gohan has more power and speed, but Goku has more experience and control over his skills

This is also true. There's a reason Toyotaro said he wanted readers to think about their different approaches to fighting, both of which are valid. Where Ultra Instinct is oriented towards defense and evasion, Beast is aggressive and offense-based.

I give it to Gohan by a hair for a number of reasons, though: 1.) Goku is the first to get hurt in the fight when he's knocked out of Ultra Instinct. But also 2.) everyone there, including Vegeta, was solely interested in Gohan and wanted to test themselves against him, and 3.) besides Toriyama's own comments about Gohan being the strongest, surpassing his dad was foreshadowed by Kuririn in the Tournament of Power; the thrust being that if he devoted himself, he'd be the best of them all, as was likewise illustrated in the original run.

Of course, it's all intentionally inconclusive. Gohan doesn't finish his fight with Goku, but he also doesn't finish his fight with Broly, and also doesn't finish his 1-on-1 with Vegeta. Any one of them could perhaps have turned the tables, but based purely on what we saw, Gohan ended up with a slight advantage.

[Miracles]

Gohan didn't fight Broly at full power. Goku/Gohan started out in their best forms, after Goku duels Ultra Instinct [Highest tech of the gods] he asks if Gohan has "some gas left in the tank." Meaning he is not at his best [Lost ki/stamina]. Broly against Gohan still proceeds to get tossed and does not even best Gohan after he battled a person with the highest tech of the gods. Then Gohan Beast is trading blows with Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Unless someone is saying Blue Vegeta is as strong as UI Goku then we got problems. It's just more proof of Gohan being low on gas.

Gohan was obviously "the man to beat." Gohan obviously was the one considered to be god of destruction material [not Broly]. He was the star of the show and it was obvious he was a cut above Broly just like Goku and Vegeta. Only Goku and Vegeta can handle Gohan, especially since Vegeta didn't even use Ultra Ego. Since these are the only three considered to takeover after Beerus.

[ssj3kakarot]

Chapter 103 Broly compared to Broly (vs Blue Gogeta).....which one is supposed to be stronger?

I was under the impression that Broly didn't access his "Beserk" level of strength vs Gohan, therefor he is still way stronger than what chapter 103 showed......or am I wrong?


I do find it interesting to think about the EoZ. Goku is the strongest. I'm curious if they keep that or retcon entirely. If they keep it, then what arc would make sense to have Goku be in a league of his own and Gohan and Vegeta both seemingly have accepted it (EoZ). In the same thought, they'd need to make it open ended enough so there could be something after EoZ...I guess Uub?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If you compare the panels, Broly got much bigger when he transformed. I think it's safe to say he was a SSJFP/LSSJ/Controlled Berserker.

I think he's a bit stronger so Ikari, Blue and Ultimate can be on equal terms, but that's probably not enough to surpass Gogeta. I don't see Current Broly beating his old self as badly.

[QuakingStar]

If you compare the panels, Broly got much bigger when he transformed. I think it's safe to say he was a SSJFP/LSSJ/Controlled Berserker.

I think he's a bit stronger so Ikari, Blue and Ultimate can be on equal terms, but that's probably not enough to surpass Gogeta. I don't see Current Broly beating his old self as badly.

Yeah Goku's reaction upon sensing him and seeing him once transformed is all the proof needed really, Broly is using "Legendary Super Saiyan" but he has control over it now.

Broly did indeed get stronger, in fact all of them did by a large margin since the Broly battle in 780. Broly just isn't as strong as the other three.