Nothing can appropriately express my anger

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
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Onikage725
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Post by Onikage725 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:26 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:
Lavender Saiyan wrote:Ya know, I'm sick of the 9000 joke too...Yet I know for a fact I still would have laughed had I been there.
I completely agree with you that the joke is old now, but if it was thrown at you unexpectedly like that you would probably laugh, unless your a hardcore hater of all things english Dragonball which I think most people here are.
I highly doubt that. Some people are, sure, but most? I'm fairly vocal against dub ridiculousness, but I certainly wouldn't say I hate all things English Dragon Ball. And most times I see issues about the dub or actors or Faulconer creep up, plenty of people throw in on both sides.

I think Mike even mentioned in a podcast that he had noticed more "dubbies" than "subbies" on the forums.
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Post by SSJ2bardock » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:30 pm

Onikage725 wrote:
SSJ2bardock wrote: I completely agree with you that the joke is old now, but if it was thrown at you unexpectedly like that you would probably laugh, unless your a hardcore hater of all things english Dragonball which I think most people here are.
I highly doubt that. Some people are, sure, but most? I'm fairly vocal against dub ridiculousness, but I certainly wouldn't say I hate all things English Dragon Ball. And most times I see issues about the dub or actors or Faulconer creep up, plenty of people throw in on both sides.

I think Mike even mentioned in a podcast that he had noticed more "dubbies" than "subbies" on the forums.
I guess the way I should have put it is that most of the Daizenshuu higher-ups and people with the greatest influence on the forum are dub haters.
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Post by Onikage725 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:49 pm

True. But can you blame them? Most of them have been fans since before the dub. The show gets licensed, they turn it on, and its edited, poorly scripted, and all of the music is replaced with the least expensive score that could be bought. Can't really expect people to translate their fandom to that product, can you?
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Post by SSJ2bardock » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:01 pm

Onikage725 wrote:True. But can you blame them? Most of them have been fans since before the dub. The show gets licensed, they turn it on, and its edited, poorly scripted, and all of the music is replaced with the least expensive score that could be bought. Can't really expect people to translate their fandom to that product, can you?
You're clearly being biased here though, you say the dub is poorly scripted and has terrible music, but that is an opinoin and not a fact common to all dragonball fans. Believe it or not some people may actually like the "poor scripts" and "terrible music". I can understand them being frustrated that a show they had been watching previously was changed, but in my opinoin you shouldn't hate something only because it's different from what your familiar with.
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Post by Big Momma » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:21 pm

I decided to show off a picture I made for all you 9000 haters :twisted:

Image

But seriously, it is true that some people may like the music and script that they have, I dont' really mind it at all most of the time. But it really aggrevates me when they can do it, but don't put forth the effort. If they really wanted to, they could have made the script similar to the original, and had the original BGM.
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Post by Onikage725 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:29 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote: You're clearly being biased here though, you say the dub is poorly scripted and has terrible music, but that is an opinoin and not a fact common to all dragonball fans. Believe it or not some people may actually like the "poor scripts" and "terrible music". I can understand them being frustrated that a show they had been watching previously was changed, but in my opinoin you shouldn't hate something only because it's different from what your familiar with.
You're speaking in hindsight, my friend. Let's go back to when the dub first came out.
First off, anime being butchered on TV was nothing new. The market is very different today to what it was 12 years ago.
Keep in mind, I started with the dub (have seen all of it actually). I got into the Japanese version during the hiatus after Saban pulled out.
Maybe you don't know this, but entire episodes were missing. The script was dumbed down. Gohan's age was altered because they thought he was too young. Death was downplayed, and poorly at that (like when Nappa blew up a city that was clearly inhabited, then insinuated that everyone had gotten away- they regularly insulted our intelligence). Nappa and Reacoome were portrayed as retards (basically big guy stereotypes, when they aren't that cut and dry in the original). Random stuff like Bardock being a scientist and Vegeta having killed Grandpa Gohan was added to the script for no fucking reason what so ever.

How is it biased to point out that people who had been watching the show in its original format would have nothing to gain from this adaptation other than cheap amusement?

And for the record, I've been in this fandom for a long time and I have never met a legit fan of the Shuki Levy score. It wasn't exactly John Williams stuff. Meaning it was basically just background noise. It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't meant to be compelling either.

Now let's jump to the in-house dub. The voices were basically poor imitations of the old cast. I'm not bashing any current preference for the dub or FUNi's group of VA's. Back then, everyone was fairly under experienced. The edits were much tamer now, but the script writing wasn't much different, and Faulconer's score was in the same line as the Levy score. He just had a few pieces that actually stood out (some annoyingly so and some in a good way). The story lacked consistency, especially in flashbacks (I'm especially looking at any flashback from the Cell Saga). Basically, until the Buu Saga (which is basically the ass end of the series), the whole production felt like every other shitty dub from the 90's (and were there plenty).

So it's kind of short sighted to say that people dislike the dub just because it's different.

To put it another way- I assume you prefer the dub. How would you feel if, say, 4Kids were to get their hands on it, and suddenly you had edits out the ass (ranging from general content to whole episodes to pieces of clothing to expressions on faces), all of the music you were familiar with replaced, and the script kiddified and dumbed down. Would you honestly say "well, thats just their version?" Or would you say "what the hell are they smoking?"
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Post by SSJ2bardock » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:42 pm

Onikage725 wrote: How is it biased to point out that people who had been watching the show in its original format would have nothing to gain from this adaptation other than cheap amusement?


So it's kind of short sighted to say that people dislike the dub just because it's different.

To put it another way- I assume you prefer the dub. How would you feel if, say, 4Kids were to get their hands on it, and suddenly you had edits out the ass (ranging from general content to whole episodes to pieces of clothing to expressions on faces), all of the music you were familiar with replaced, and the script kiddified and dumbed down. Would you honestly say "well, thats just their version?" Or would you say "what the hell are they smoking?"
First off, when I said you were biased it was because when you were talking about things such as script and music you attached negative adjectives to them instead of just mentioning that they were changed from the original.

Secondly, when I said it's wrong to dislike the dub just because it's not the same as the original, I meant that it was wrong to dislike it only for that reason and that reason alone.

Lastly, the day that 4kids gets a hold of Dragonball rights will be a sad, sad day.
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Post by bkev » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:47 pm

if 4Kids had had it back in the day, they might have done decent. Maybe only occasionally change the music score (see Pokemon's first episode for examples). Of course, we might've even gotten a "crap" or two (see Pokemon episode 4). Alas, those extra white flashes and cover-ups of punches probably would have come with the package.


Now, they would butcher it like there's no tomorrow.
[quote="Brakus"]For all the flack that FUNimation gets on this forum for their quote about DBZ, there's some modicum of truth to it: a 9-year-old is born every day. Or in some cases, "reborn". DBZ may be a kids' show, but it's been so close to so many hearts all over Japan, America, and quite possibly, even the world.[/quote]

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Post by Super Sonic » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:52 pm

Also remember 4Kids screws up Jump series other than Ultimate Muscle. And there might've not been a younger fandom to balance out things like with Yu-Gi-Oh.

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Post by SSJ2bardock » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:55 pm

Super Sonic wrote:Also remember 4Kids screws up Jump series other than Ultimate Muscle. And there might've not been a younger fandom to balance out things like with Yu-Gi-Oh.
Was there really even a whole lot of things that would've needed to be edited out of Yu-Gi-Oh?
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Post by Super Sonic » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:57 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:
Super Sonic wrote:Also remember 4Kids screws up Jump series other than Ultimate Muscle. And there might've not been a younger fandom to balance out things like with Yu-Gi-Oh.
Was there really even a whole lot of things that would've needed to be edited out of Yu-Gi-Oh?
Nope. A few years earlier, a lot of the stuff they edited would've been no problem on Batman and Superman. What I meant was that although it was bad, the show was still a hit due to the 14 and under crowd.

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Post by Raki » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:05 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:True. But can you blame them? Most of them have been fans since before the dub. The show gets licensed, they turn it on, and its edited, poorly scripted, and all of the music is replaced with the least expensive score that could be bought. Can't really expect people to translate their fandom to that product, can you?
You're clearly being biased here though, you say the dub is poorly scripted and has terrible music, but that is an opinoin and not a fact common to all dragonball fans. Believe it or not some people may actually like the "poor scripts" and "terrible music". I can understand them being frustrated that a show they had been watching previously was changed, but in my opinoin you shouldn't hate something only because it's different from what your familiar with.
I think Onikage725 touched on this in the past. The user's quote is in my sig, and I agree 100 percent. When I first watched DBZ in 2002, Bruce's score ignore me highly. To me it made the show feel like a worthless Saturday morning cartoon. That same year I watch Dragonball with it's original, and it hooked me beyond belief. It didn't hurt that Dragonball wasn't as poorly scripted as DBZ was. A 13 year old version of myself could figure that out with no Internet access or somebody telling me that.
The series doesn't start with the arrival of Raditz. Stop being lazy and watch Dragonball.

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Post by SSJ2bardock » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:17 pm

Raki wrote: I think Onikage725 touched on this in the past. The user's quote is in my sig, and I agree 100 percent. When I first watched DBZ in 2002, Bruce's score ignore me highly. To me it made the show feel like a worthless Saturday morning cartoon. That same year I watch Dragonball with it's original, and it hooked me beyond belief. It didn't hurt that Dragonball wasn't as poorly scripted as DBZ was. A 13 year old version of myself could figure that out with no Internet access or somebody telling me that.
I may be wrong, but in the last line your saying that people who like the dub are stupid.
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Post by Raki » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:20 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:
Raki wrote: I think Onikage725 touched on this in the past. The user's quote is in my sig, and I agree 100 percent. When I first watched DBZ in 2002, Bruce's score ignore me highly. To me it made the show feel like a worthless Saturday morning cartoon. That same year I watch Dragonball with it's original, and it hooked me beyond belief. It didn't hurt that Dragonball wasn't as poorly scripted as DBZ was. A 13 year old version of myself could figure that out with no Internet access or somebody telling me that.
I may be wrong, but in the last line your saying that people who like the dub are stupid.
I didn't say anything of the such. It's just that many lines seemed out of place for me, and in hindsight, I'm suprised that I was able to pick on that on my own.
The series doesn't start with the arrival of Raditz. Stop being lazy and watch Dragonball.

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Post by SSJ2bardock » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:25 pm

Raki wrote:
SSJ2bardock wrote:
Raki wrote: I think Onikage725 touched on this in the past. The user's quote is in my sig, and I agree 100 percent. When I first watched DBZ in 2002, Bruce's score ignore me highly. To me it made the show feel like a worthless Saturday morning cartoon. That same year I watch Dragonball with it's original, and it hooked me beyond belief. It didn't hurt that Dragonball wasn't as poorly scripted as DBZ was. A 13 year old version of myself could figure that out with no Internet access or somebody telling me that.
I may be wrong, but in the last line your saying that people who like the dub are stupid.
I didn't say anything of the such. It's just that many lines seemed out of place for me, and in hindsight, I'm suprised that I was able to pick on that on my own.
I wasn't sure on that, but it sort of looked like you were saying that if you like the dub you need to go online to have somebody who doesn't like it explain why it sucks or something along those lines, my mistake sorry. :)
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Post by Onikage725 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:35 pm

Raki wrote:I didn't say anything of the such. It's just that many lines seemed out of place for me, and in hindsight, I'm suprised that I was able to pick on that on my own.
I was like that around your age back with DBZ (God I feel like a geezer just typing that).

Tien: I can see their parachutes. They're OK.

Me: No they aren't Tien. Don't kid a kidder.

Long before I ever had internet access I could smell a censor.
SSJ2bardock wrote: First off, when I said you were biased it was because when you were talking about things such as script and music you attached negative adjectives to them instead of just mentioning that they were changed from the original.
I am entitled to an opinion. You are entitled to disagree, but keep in mind I was basically summing up why a group of people didn't like the dub. I wasn't attacking dub fandom. Music is personal choice (though I maintain I have yet to meet a hardcore Levy supporter, and most people who were watching in the Levy days didn't find Bruce much of an improvement), but the scripts were ridiculous. If you like them, that is fine. But we're talking about an anime dub, and it was rife with mistranslation, censorship, inappropriate attempts at humor (they seriously turned Freeza into a season-long gay joke) and frequent loss of plot elements. If that isn't a shitty adaptation, I don't know what is. I don't care if you or anyone likes their translation, but that doesn't mean they did a solid job translating.

I'm reminded of my favorite scene in Troy.

Agamemnon: My brother's blood still wets the sand, and you insult him!
Odysseus: It's no insult to say a dead man is dead.
Secondly, when I said it's wrong to dislike the dub just because it's not the same as the original, I meant that it was wrong to dislike it only for that reason and that reason alone.
That's why I posted in clarification. I never meant "just because it's not the same."
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Post by bkev » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:41 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:
Super Sonic wrote:Also remember 4Kids screws up Jump series other than Ultimate Muscle. And there might've not been a younger fandom to balance out things like with Yu-Gi-Oh.
Was there really even a whole lot of things that would've needed to be edited out of Yu-Gi-Oh?
Sure! Friends punching friends, uh... stuff that's NOT about saving the world... yeah...
basically they really screwed up there. A conversation about how everyone was sad that Jonouichi (or Joey depending on whether you watch the dub or not) was dying was turned into a conversation about how they couldn't give up and they HAD TO SAVE DA WOILD!

And they turned Kaiba into a total douchebag. No, seriously, the 4Kids dub made him a bigger one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLH-ruhQU0g
[quote="Brakus"]For all the flack that FUNimation gets on this forum for their quote about DBZ, there's some modicum of truth to it: a 9-year-old is born every day. Or in some cases, "reborn". DBZ may be a kids' show, but it's been so close to so many hearts all over Japan, America, and quite possibly, even the world.[/quote]

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Post by SSJ2bardock » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:42 pm

Onikage725 wrote:
SSJ2bardock wrote: First off, when I said you were biased it was because when you were talking about things such as script and music you attached negative adjectives to them instead of just mentioning that they were changed from the original.
I am entitled to an opinion. You are entitled to disagree, but keep in mind I was basically summing up why a group of people didn't like the dub. I wasn't attacking dub fandom.
I know you weren't attacking dub fandom and you are completely entitled to your own opinoins, but if you go back to what I was actually talking about all I said was that you were being biased and you proved it right their in your own words.
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Post by Raki » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:51 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:
SSJ2bardock wrote: First off, when I said you were biased it was because when you were talking about things such as script and music you attached negative adjectives to them instead of just mentioning that they were changed from the original.
I am entitled to an opinion. You are entitled to disagree, but keep in mind I was basically summing up why a group of people didn't like the dub. I wasn't attacking dub fandom.
I know you weren't attacking dub fandom and you are completely entitled to your own opinoins, but if you go back to what I was actually talking about all I said was that you were being biased and you proved it right their in your own words.
Everybody is biased. Some have positive bias and others have negative bias.
The series doesn't start with the arrival of Raditz. Stop being lazy and watch Dragonball.

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Post by Onikage725 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:56 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote: I know you weren't attacking dub fandom and you are completely entitled to your own opinoins, but if you go back to what I was actually talking about all I said was that you were being biased and you proved it right their in your own words.
Not...really. Like I just said- the script, especially in the early days (as I explained, I was going all the way back to the beginning to show why someone who was a fan pre-dub would have been turned off by FUNimation's efforts), failed as a translation.

Unless you think Bardock was a scientist and Vegeta killed Grandpa Gohan.

Or that Tao Pai Pai is a general of the Red Ribbon Army, with Dr. Gero as its commander.

It's not a bias to say that, as far as translation is concerned, it was crap. Especially considering in the early days FUNi admitted they were basically winging the scripts. They said they had scripts from Toei, but weren't using them. At all. Not even as a reference.

And music, again since I was talking about the early days first... um, do me a solid and track me down a Shuki Levy Dragon Ball Z CD. I'm pretty sure they don't exist. Find me a single track from back then that isn't Rock the Dragon. That isn't a bias- the music back then was meant to be simply noise to fill dead air. They weren't trying to sell CDs, and the compositions were done quickly, cheaply, and without much effort. Even Saban's Power Rangers music was done with more effort than what DBZ got. How is it a bias to say that something that absolutely nobody has ever said anything positive about was inferior to something that many people love and that still sells CDs to this day?
Last edited by Onikage725 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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