Dragon Ball Daima (2024)

[tonysoprano300]

Toriyama was so big on trying to make Gokuu feel like 'not a traditional hero' or to highlight the 'poison' of his character, but he doesn't really do that in an interesting and/or entertaining fashion the further along he gets into the series. Grounding elements that make Gokuu be some semblance of a relatable human are necessary, and to remove those because of a desire to make Gokuu less 'heroic' are going to only make for a less interesting work.

Like, Toriyama can talk about wanting to create something that isn't too deep all he wants, but that shit isn't always going to cut it—especially when you aren't putting a ton of thought into how things play out, and what the character arcs are for all of the character affected by your writing decisions. Not allowing editorial or production in-put from other creators involved in these projects does, in fact, not help, either.

He actually did a much better job of it with Vegeta, a guy who was self interested/evil and only fought bad guys because his goals just happened to align with the heroes. Yet a lot of fans still found Vegeta extremely relatable in spite of the fact that he was a complete wild card who would often exacerbate situations because he was an arrogant man child lol

[AliTheZombie13]

Seriously y'all enough with the "Goku put the multiverse at risk with his lust for battle". It just flat out isn't true because, again Zeno was planning on wiping the lot of them out before that.

This is true... IN THE MANGA.

In the anime, it's not like that at all. This was only stated AFTER Goku made the suggestion of a tournament to Zeno.
In the manga, the Zenos said they would erase the universes BEFORE Goku made the suggestion to them.

In the anime, it's revealed the entire tournament was a sham, a test to see if mortals were really worthy of living. And if the winner wasn't empathetic enough, then Zeno would erase EVERYONE, including the universes with higher mortal ranking. Zeno explicitly says, "If the winner didn't wish for the other universes to be brought back, then we would wipe out EVERYONE."
In the manga, this is never revealed at all, the tournament and the stakes were for real.

So, you're telling me, if Goku had won in the anime, and wished for a boat like he kept saying he would... Everyone would be fucked.
And given that the tournament was a sham, then yes. Goku was at fault for giving them the idea in the anime.

[Majin Buu]

He actually did a much better job of it with Vegeta, a guy who was self interested/evil and only fought bad guys because his goals just happened to align with the heroes. Yet a lot of fans still found Vegeta extremely relatable in spite of the fact that he was a complete wild card who would often exacerbate situations because he was an arrogant man child lol

Which is quite the feat considering Vegeta is the one that was depicted murdering innocent civilians on screen.

[tonysoprano300]

That's beyond apathy, even more so if you consider Goku is at fault for this whole mess.

I'm at a total and complete loss on why this take continues to persist amongst the fandom (is it because of the one joke in DBZ Abridged's Christmas parody of Eradicate Saiyans?)

Zeno was going to wipe out all universes with lower moral rankings ANYWAYS. The tournament suggestion gave Zeno the idea to give one of those universe a fighting chance to survive. If anything Goku's stupidity indirectly saved all those universes since 17's wish brought them all back. Something that wouldn't have happened if Goku didn't suggest a tournament.

Seriously y'all enough with the "Goku put the multiverse at risk with his lust for battle". It just flat out isn't true because, again Zeno was planning on wiping the lot of them out before that.

Thats true, I haven’t seen the TOP in so long so its hard for me to remember but my personal impression was more so that Goku’s decision making process was terrible, he just got lucky that Zeno was already planning on wiping out the universes. I think the process component does matter a lot if we’re making a judgement of someones character.

But like I said, I haven’t seen if in a while so i forget the exact details

[tonysoprano300]

He actually did a much better job of it with Vegeta, a guy who was self interested/evil and only fought bad guys because his goals just happened to align with the heroes. Yet a lot of fans still found Vegeta extremely relatable in spite of the fact that he was a complete wild card who would often exacerbate situations because he was an arrogant man child lol

Which is quite the feat considering Vegeta is the one that was depicted murdering innocent civilians on screen.

Yea…good times lol

I would say the main difference is that Vegeta had an identifiable character arc where he had to atone for his sins and learn to make peace with his life on Earth. Which is why his speech at the end of the Buu arc is often cited as being one of the best moments in the series. I'm not even saying its handled that well but at least it went somewhere and had a clear trajectory.

And even though Vegeta was a big baby, the mid life crisis element of “My youth is gone and my destiny is being tossed aside for this life of mediocrity” is something that a lot of men probably identified with.

[Dbzk1999]

Seriously y'all enough with the "Goku put the multiverse at risk with his lust for battle". It just flat out isn't true because, again Zeno was planning on wiping the lot of them out before that.

This is true... IN THE MANGA.

In the anime, it's not like that at all. This was only stated AFTER Goku made the suggestion of a tournament to Zeno.
In the manga, the Zenos said they would erase the universes BEFORE Goku made the suggestion to them.

In the anime, it's revealed the entire tournament was a sham, a test to see if mortals were really worthy of living. And if the winner wasn't empathetic enough, then Zeno would erase EVERYONE, including the universes with higher mortal ranking. Zeno explicitly says, "If the winner didn't wish for the other universes to be brought back, then we would wipe out EVERYONE."
In the manga, this is never revealed at all, the tournament and the stakes were for real.

So, you're telling me, if Goku had won in the anime, and wished for a boat like he kept saying he would... Everyone would be fucked.
And given that the tournament was a sham, then yes. Goku was at fault for giving them the idea in the anime.

Uh, the bolded is flat out wrong, it’s explicitly said in the anime as well that they were going to just wipe out the universes before Goku made the suggestion for the tournament. Grand Priest and Whis flat out say it. The implication by the end of the arc is that Goku making the suggestion for the tournament is what then causes them to use it as a test of virtue for the mortals. Zeno and Future Zeno wiping out the universes before Goku makes the suggestion of the tournament isn’t something that’s only in the manga.

[AliTheZombie13]

Uh, the bolded is flat out wrong, it’s explicitly said in the anime as well that they were going to just wipe out the universes before Goku made the suggestion for the tournament. Grand Priest and Whis flat out say it. The implication by the end of the arc is that Goku making the suggestion for the tournament is what then causes them to use it as a test of virtue for the mortals. Zeno and Future Zeno wiping out the universes before Goku makes the suggestion of the tournament isn’t something that’s only in the manga.

I have rewatched Super recently. Every single character only starts repeating the line "But Zeno was going to erase the universes anyway, so Goku gave them a fighting chance, really!" after Goku suggests the tournament.

In the manga, it's the other way around. The Zenos explicitly say they're going to erase the universes before Goku suggests the tournament.

Again, the "secret test of morality" plot point didn't exist in the manga. This gives me the impression that Zeno wouldn't have come up with the idea of multiversal genocide in the anime had Goku had never suggested the tournament in the first place. The "BUT GOKU GAVE EVERYBODY A FIGHTING CHANCE!!!" excuse is only valid for the manga, and it can only do so much in the anime when you remember that... Had Jiren, or Vegeta, or even Goku himself, or anybody other than #17 won that tournament and wished for anything that wasn't "Restore the other erased universes", then everybody would get erased anyway.

I have no issues with the way the manga handles it, but the anime writers clearly wanted to have their "Goku is not a hero" cake and eat it too.

[Majin Buu]

Yea…good times lol

I would say the main difference is that Vegeta had an identifiable character arc where he had to atone for his sins and learn to make peace with his life on Earth. Which is why his speech at the end of the Buu arc is often cited as being one of the best moments in the series. I'm not even saying its handled that well but at least it went somewhere and had a clear trajectory.

And even though Vegeta was a big baby, the mid life crisis element of “My youth is gone and my destiny is being tossed aside for this life of mediocrity” is something that a lot of men probably identified with.

Just to clarify, I was referring to those Namekian civilians he murdered for their Dragon Ball in the Freeza arc- The ones that weren't brought back to life because they were killed by him instead of Freeza.

Your overall point still stands, I just wanted to clarify what I was referring to since you seemed to think I was referring to his Majin Vegeta murders.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Yea…good times lol

I would say the main difference is that Vegeta had an identifiable character arc where he had to atone for his sins and learn to make peace with his life on Earth. Which is why his speech at the end of the Buu arc is often cited as being one of the best moments in the series. I'm not even saying its handled that well but at least it went somewhere and had a clear trajectory.

And even though Vegeta was a big baby, the mid life crisis element of “My youth is gone and my destiny is being tossed aside for this life of mediocrity” is something that a lot of men probably identified with.

Just to clarify, I was referring to those Namekian civilians he murdered for their Dragon Ball in the Freeza arc- The ones that weren't brought back to life because they were killed by him instead of Freeza.

Your overall point still stands, I just wanted to clarify what I was referring to since you seemed to think I was referring to his Majin Vegeta murders.

I know I constantly say this but The CW allowing Vegeta to kill those Namekians and then explicitly mentioning they will never return because of the tecnicalities of the wish was such an underrated moment.

[Vegard Aune]

I have rewatched Super recently. Every single character only starts repeating the line "But Zeno was going to erase the universes anyway, so Goku gave them a fighting chance, really!" after Goku suggests the tournament.

You act as if that makes it a retcon, when according to everything we've heard, each arc in Super had a general plot outline before any scripts were written. And since "The Omni-King was contemplating destroying all but the highest-ranking universes anyway and Goku's suggestion unwittingly saved them" is one of the plot points that is brought up both in the anime and the manga, it seems pretty safe to assume that this was part of the original outline, though with no details included on how or when this would be revealed, which is why Toyotaro revealed it immediately while the anime left it as a twist for much later. Much like how Toyotaro revealed Toppo being a Destroyer in training right at the start of the arc, before even the exhibition match, whereas in the anime this was only revealed near the end of the main tournament. Toriyama would have included "Is a Destroyer in training" in the profile for Toppo's character, but left it up to the specific writers how they wanted to implement this detail in the story.

[super michael]

Mostly this. Goku can be a selfish, overconfident, static character who, while not exactly a hero, can do heroic things out of pure accident and a selfish desire to fight strong people. But such a character is hard to write, you need to strike a good balance, otherwise the audience may lose interest and root against him.

Goku in Super, to my recall, has like... TWO moments, tops, where I find sympathy for him. Once when he tries to reason Beerus out of destroying the Earth while in orbit, and the second when he gets appalled that Black killed Chichi and Goten. The entire rest of the anime, I found him despicable and worthy of a good Hakai'ng that never came, despite Beerus having every reason to do it.

Also, I did finish Yu Yu Hakusho, and yes, I didn't like Yusuke turning into Goku in the final third of the anime either.

Goku used to kill anyone, that is until he met Android 8. Android 8 taught Goku that killing isn't the right way to solve a problem. Then once Goku trained with Mr Popo and Kami, he stopped killing villains.
However Goku told Future Trunks that sometimes some villains needs to die.

I don't think we saw Goku kill a single person outside animals before he met Hachan. Mostly because of the kind of story Dragon Ball was before that point. So Hachan is pretty irrelevant here.

After Goku trained with Popo and Kami he still killed Yakon and Majin Boo plus Freeza and Cold in Future Trunks timeline. And urged Gohan to kill Cell. He didn't adopt a "No Kill" policy he just started sparing foes for a rematch/because they weren't worth his time

I believe you are correct, I got mixed up with the order of the episode. In Muscle Tower Goku didn't kill anyone except for that 1 monster by freezing him and killing him. As for Goku trying to finish General White, that was anime only. In the manga that didn't happen.

However he did kill a lot in the RRA army base.

I guess you are right about him only sparing those who are not worth his time and kill those that are dangerous.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Poor Mr Vegetto EX, he has to come and wield the ban hammer threat for this thread to be on topic.

[AliTheZombie13]

I have rewatched Super recently. Every single character only starts repeating the line "But Zeno was going to erase the universes anyway, so Goku gave them a fighting chance, really!" after Goku suggests the tournament.

You act as if that makes it a retcon, when according to everything we've heard, each arc in Super had a general plot outline before any scripts were written. And since "The Omni-King was contemplating destroying all but the highest-ranking universes anyway and Goku's suggestion unwittingly saved them" is one of the plot points that is brought up both in the anime and the manga, it seems pretty safe to assume that this was part of the original outline, though with no details included on how or when this would be revealed, which is why Toyotaro revealed it immediately while the anime left it as a twist for much later. Much like how Toyotaro revealed Toppo being a Destroyer in training right at the start of the arc, before even the exhibition match, whereas in the anime this was only revealed near the end of the main tournament. Toriyama would have included "Is a Destroyer in training" in the profile for Toppo's character, but left it up to the specific writers how they wanted to implement this detail in the story.

Bad execution on part of the anime. Toyotaro handled it better. Things like, "Oh, Goku actually gave the universes a fighting chance... Except not, because the Tournament was really a test of morality and Zeno foresaw this outcome anyway... So uh..." reeks of damage control on part of the writers.

That also brings back my original point: "Goku is an idiot" is Toriyama-mandated. It's very easy for the writers to fuck it up and make him unlikable, which I'm hoping doesn't happen in Daima.

[super michael]

I think I will stop coming to this thread, until there are more information about Dragon Ball Daima.
I do hope Dragon Ball Daima turns out good.

[Rafa Fast]

Yeah I think there should be a "Official 'Stupid Modern Goku' Thread" so we stop seeing this everywhere for good
Anyway, with the recent problem that happened with one of the voice actors, I wonder what's going to happen to Yamcha in this show? At this point I really don't think they would remove his scenes, I presume most of them must be with other characters
Some people here said that there is the possibility voice recording for this show hasn't even started yet, given how none of the trailers have any, so if they're doing it they'll need to rush it and find another VA for Yamcha ASAP, as they'll also need to record his voice for Sparking Zero and I believe, re-record his lines from the still running console & mobile games?

[AliTheZombie13]

To be fair, I don't think Yamcha will have more than 2 scenes in the new show. He hasn't exactly had a good track record of screentime after Namek. Redubbing his lines would be extremely easy.

[FireFly]

If Yamcha has lines in Daima, they could very easily redub him with a female VA given he'll be turned to a child.

[Michael_Takagawa]

I have rewatched Super recently. Every single character only starts repeating the line "But Zeno was going to erase the universes anyway, so Goku gave them a fighting chance, really!" after Goku suggests the tournament.

You act as if that makes it a retcon, when according to everything we've heard, each arc in Super had a general plot outline before any scripts were written. And since "The Omni-King was contemplating destroying all but the highest-ranking universes anyway and Goku's suggestion unwittingly saved them" is one of the plot points that is brought up both in the anime and the manga, it seems pretty safe to assume that this was part of the original outline, though with no details included on how or when this would be revealed, which is why Toyotaro revealed it immediately while the anime left it as a twist for much later. Much like how Toyotaro revealed Toppo being a Destroyer in training right at the start of the arc, before even the exhibition match, whereas in the anime this was only revealed near the end of the main tournament. Toriyama would have included "Is a Destroyer in training" in the profile for Toppo's character, but left it up to the specific writers how they wanted to implement this detail in the story.

Bad execution on part of the anime. Toyotaro handled it better. Things like, "Oh, Goku actually gave the universes a fighting chance... Except not, because the Tournament was really a test of morality and Zeno foresaw this outcome anyway... So uh..." reeks of damage control on part of the writers.

That also brings back my original point: "Goku is an idiot" is Toriyama-mandated. It's very easy for the writers to fuck it up and make him unlikable, which I'm hoping doesn't happen in Daima.

You mean your damage control, to be exact? You feel the need to emphasize certain points you have a problem with to justify your viewpoint while ignoring others' entirely, as well as find excuses to twist the topic into something unrelated you want to complain about.

And intelligence has nothing to do with morality. It's less of a Toriyama-mandate that "Goku is an idiot", and more of a "Goku is not a hero of justice". Goku is not perfect by all means, but you seem to treat as if his mistakes and actions, indirect or not, are intentional acts of malice on his part. You're just going to say that he's worse than Frieza, who subjugated and murdered countless races, and Zamasu, who murdered Goku's family and attempted to wipe out mortals just because Goku beat him in a sparring match?

[VegettoEX]

For someone with supposedly only two posts, you sure seem to want to really get into it with people based on prior knowledge and interactions.

If on the extremely unlikely off-chance we take even the slightest deeper look and find you're not the bog standard "old banned user with an axe to grind", someone should probably let you know that this isn't the best way to start with an account!

This is such a fun, simple, basic conversation -- it doesn't warrant this kind of approach at all...

AND one we've already had to steer back on-course from. So let's do it!

(And you don't need to comment on the fact that it's not -- just report posts! Don't add to the clutter! Don't be a jerk! Be cool! It's very, very, VERY simple!)

[Michael_Takagawa]

For someone with supposedly only two posts, you sure seem to want to really get into it with people based on prior knowledge and interactions.

If on the extremely unlikely off-chance we take even the slightest deeper look and find you're not the bog standard "old banned user with an axe to grind", someone should probably let you know that this isn't the best way to start with an account!

This is such a fun, simple, basic conversation -- it doesn't warrant this kind of approach at all...

AND one we've already had to steer back on-course from. So let's do it!

(And you don't need to comment on the fact that it's not -- just report posts! Don't add to the clutter! Don't be a jerk! Be cool! It's very, very, VERY simple!)

I apologize for what I said earlier. I haven't been visiting my therapist for a while since he decided to go on leave.

It's really, really frustrating for me to tolerate people who openly express their dislike of popular shows like DBS to the point they get certain facts wrong, like I am facing against 7 billion people on the face of the planet. When I have that grudge, I feel the need to right that injustice so that I can be easier on myself.