Why are the English dubisms far too ingrained into the fandom?

[MasenkoHA]

You are now deflecting outright, Adamant outright went with "Dub people are mentally deficient.

Do you mean in the post from literally 12 years ago? That had nothing to do with the conversation on hand until it got weirdly brought up here? Seriously 12 years ago. Even if Adamant still holds that opinion (and to be clear I disagree with him on his opinion from 12 years ago) it's still irrelevant to what the conversation was about.

" We already made clear its not the calling things by their name that bothers us.

Adamant: If Funimation renamed their reversioning of Dragon Ball into something else Funi dubs fans would just say they were fans of that something else instead of Dragon Ball

You and Ireland: How Dare!

[Cure Dragon 255]

You are now deflecting outright, Adamant outright went with "Dub people are mentally deficient.

Do you mean in the post from literally 12 years ago? That had nothing to do with the conversation on hand until it got weirdly brought up here? Seriously 12 years ago. Even if Adamant still holds that opinion (and to be clear I disagree with him on his opinion from 12 years ago) it's still irrelevant to what the conversation was about.

" We already made clear its not the calling things by their name that bothers us.

Adamant: If Funimation renamed their reversioning of Dragon Ball into something else Funi dubs fans would just say they were fans of that something else instead of Dragon Ball

You and Ireland: How Dare!

NOW you are putting words in my mouth, to be honest I DONT agree with DBI, I am a Precure fan and I DONT FEEL Glitter Force fans like Precure, sure some do check out Precure but most just make more fan openings for Glitter Force than actually checking out the original. AND IT IS OKAY. No one needs to be an expert on a cheesy kids show and there is nothing wrong in not liking the original. NOR IS IT wrong to point out these crop of fans dont like the original.

No one is actually adressing the fact that Adamant called dub fans mentally deficient. THAT IS HIDEOUSLY ABLEIST and I cant believe everyone is okay and hunky dory with this.

To be fair, that was a long time ago, but the mods have never told Adamant what he did was wrong. I dont think he's like the rest of Kanzenshuu who grew the fuck up and stopped their elitism. And yes it is, no in fact I will go further, this is WORSE than elitism and gatekeeping.

[JulieYBM]

Nope, it disregards my point entirely, as has been the case for most people who have responded to me, or at best they only took half my point into consideration.

Although maybe your trying to be ironic because unlike a Tomato there is no debate over whether a Carrott is a fruit or vegetable, everyone accepts its the latter.

Again, Statement A ≠ Statement B.

No, I'm saying the majority (dub viewers/cishet people) like to tell the minority (sub viewers/queer people/fruity people) that they're oppressing them by pointing out that they are, in fact, doing the thing that they're doing.

That being said, I don't really care, mostly because I think people are making a bigger deal out of things than they need to be the winner.

Also, I just wanted to point out the funny fruity analogy, because I'm fruity.

Another thing, you seem to equate "The Majority" with "Oppressors". I know cis het white people have oppressed people, but this way of thinking makes it seem like "Once LGBT people are the majority THEY will be the evil oppressors" as it is NUMBERS and not the fact that a group opresses the other that makes them oppressors.

I think the thread is full of a lot of projecting and making mountains out of mole hills, and people should maybe just stop giving a shit about being the most valid, and focus on their own personal fandoms. We're getting lost in the weeds, and forgetting what the point of being a fan of anything is supposed to be about—hint: it's not being more right and better and special than some other person.

I just think that it's silly and melodramatic that we're doing the "You're not a REAL fan" thing. People all have their own reasons for doing their own thing, and to try and put a value on those reasons amounts to nothing.

I'm not inclined to disagree that if FUNimation had given their dub a different name from Dragon Ball (ala Robotech, or Card Captors or whatever) fans of that version would just call it that instead of Dragon Ball. I think that's a pretty undisputable argument to agree with, and I don't see any reason to take offense at it (even if a person making the argument is historically not pleasant).

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

That had nothing to do with the conversation on hand until it got weirdly brought up here? Seriously 12 years ago. Even if Adamant still holds that opinion (and to be clear I disagree with him on his opinion from 12 years ago) it's still irrelevant to what the conversation was about.

I admit it may have been a bit much for me to drag up Adamant's 12-year old post, but I didn't want to do that. I was standing up to him on the basis that I didn't trust him to mean well when he says "X people are probably not fans of Dragon Ball" as I thought everyone was aware of his history and knew what he was capable of. Clearly I was wrong because I was one of the very few to even suspect passive aggressiveness on his part.

Adamant: If Funimation renamed their reversioning of Dragon Ball into something else Funi dubs fans would just say they were fans of that something else instead of Dragon Ball

You and Ireland: How Dare!

Why must I repeat myself every time? There is a difference between merely making a statement of fact two products are different and doing so in addition to claiming to know whether or not anyone who likes it can call themselves a fan of whatever. You will always hear the former from me but not the latter, with Adamant it's been the reverse every time he commented on it.

To illustrate my point I'll reiterate and please take heed of the differences here because to conveniently deny there is a difference (as many in this thread have) is just foolish.

Statement A : "Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball GT is a different show because of the drastically altered tone."

Statement B : "Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball GT is a different show to the Japanese version of GT and therefore if you prefer the former to the latter you are not a fan of the latter because they are drastically different."

The narrative from those who have responded to me in this thread is that the point of Statement A and Statement B is the same and I'm being a hypocrite for saying acknowledging differences is elitism. No, they are not making the same point, Statement A is making a single point, Statement B makes two points merged into one.

Point of Statement A : These two products are drastically different and the same in name-only.

Point of Statement B : These two products are drastically different and therefore anyone who prefers the heavily altered version is not a fan of the original.

I have put in bold and underlined where Statement B goes the extra mile and becomes more passive aggressive. Anyone who is not seeing the difference is not reading my posts thoroughly, because deny it all you like it's still there.

As critical as I am of Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball GT you will only ever hear me make Statement A, not Statement B, because unlike some people I don't pass judgement on whether or not someone else can be called a fan of something, like the original Japanese version, that's for them to decide for themselves.

Statement A ≠ Statement B.

[MasenkoHA]

By the same token no one has the right to say someone is "not a fan of X because they like Y".

But nowhere did anyone say "You can't be a fan of Dragon Ball because you like the Funimation dub" Adamant, Kaboom, Majin Buu and everyone else who threw their two cents in are talking about people who EXCLUSIVELY like Funimation's heavily reversioned dub. Obviously fans who enjoy both the original Japanese version and Funimation's altered adaptation exist. Nobody claimed they're mutually exclusive things. But, again, the original point was fans who only like Funi Ball Z fans only call themselves Dragon Ball fans because Funimation didn't change the name of the series to go with the rest of their alteration.



If I said "people who only watch Dragon Ball Z aren't Dragon Ball fans because they have no interest in the first part of the story or anything after Z, they're Dragon Ball Z fans" are you gonna get offended on those DBZ only viewers behalf? Even though it's just a statement of fact?

[Cure Dragon 255]

No, I'm saying the majority (dub viewers/cishet people) like to tell the minority (sub viewers/queer people/fruity people) that they're oppressing them by pointing out that they are, in fact, doing the thing that they're doing.

That being said, I don't really care, mostly because I think people are making a bigger deal out of things than they need to be the winner.

Also, I just wanted to point out the funny fruity analogy, because I'm fruity.

Another thing, you seem to equate "The Majority" with "Oppressors". I know cis het white people have oppressed people, but this way of thinking makes it seem like "Once LGBT people are the majority THEY will be the evil oppressors" as it is NUMBERS and not the fact that a group opresses the other that makes them oppressors.

I think the thread is full of a lot of projecting and making mountains out of mole hills, and people should maybe just stop giving a shit about being the most valid, and focus on their own personal fandoms. We're getting lost in the weeds, and forgetting what the point of being a fan of anything is supposed to be about—hint: it's not being more right and better and special than some other person.

I just think that it's silly and melodramatic that we're doing the "You're not a REAL fan" thing. People all have their own reasons for doing their own thing, and to try and put a value on those reasons amounts to nothing.

I'm not inclined to disagree that if FUNimation had given their dub a different name from Dragon Ball (ala Robotech, or Card Captors or whatever) fans of that version would just call it that instead of Dragon Ball. I think that's a pretty undisputable argument to agree with, and I don't see any reason to take offense at it (even if a person making the argument is historically not pleasant).

I am just going to bow out at this point because I agree with Julie, but I WILL call out the "Dubbing is for white cis het people" this is a bullshit way to think and nothing will disuade me, and if Julie and everyone else thinks "People should have thicker skins" then so should she and stop erasing the PoC LGBT dubs fans she equated to oppressors.

[MasenkoHA]

I am just going to bow out at this point because I agree with Julie, but I WILL call out the "Dubbing is for white cis het people" this is a bullshit way to think and nothing will disuade me, and if Julie and everyone else thinks "People should have thicker skins" then so should she and stop erasing the PoC LGBT dubs fans she equated to oppressors.

You're like really badly misrepresenting her argument. She's not saying "Only Cishet White people like dubs" She's comparing cishet white people (a majority outside of lgbt spaces) to dub fans (a majority outside of some fandom circles like Kanz) but she never made any sort of assertion that only cishet white people like dubs and that queer people only watch subbed.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I'm not inclined to disagree that if FUNimation had given their dub a different name from Dragon Ball (ala Robotech, or Card Captors or whatever) fans of that version would just call it that instead of Dragon Ball. I think that's a pretty undisputable argument to agree with, and I don't see any reason to take offense at it (even if a person making the argument is historically not pleasant).

I will give you credit here for hearing my point about why I don't trust Adamant but again its not about people being overly sensitive about someone pointing out there's a difference. Again see my case for Statement A and Statement B. So many people in this thread are burying their heads in the sand and acting as if they are the same thing, but they are not. Even though Adamant is nowhere near as bad as he was in 2012 my point still stands that you will only ever hear Statement A from me and not Statement B. Flip that around and you get Adamant.

But nowhere did anyone say "You can't be a fan of Dragon Ball because you like the Funimation dub" Adamant, Kaboom, Majin Buu and everyone else who threw their two cents in are talking about people who EXCLUSIVELY like Funimation's heavily reversioned dub. Obviously fans who enjoy both the original Japanese version and Funimation's altered adaptation exist. Nobody claimed they're mutually exclusive things. But, again, the original point was fans who only like Funi Ball Z fans only call themselves Dragon Ball fans because Funimation didn't change the name of the series to go with the rest of their alteration.

If I said "people who only watch Dragon Ball Z aren't Dragon Ball fans because they have no interest in the first part of the story or anything after Z, they're Dragon Ball Z fans" are you gonna get offended on those DBZ only viewers behalf? Even though it's just a statement of fact?

But it is not for the detractors to tell said fans that. I would have no problem with a Macross fan telling someone who has only watched Robotech they are not the same show, what I vehemently detest is the Macross fan making a judgement call on what the person only watching Robotech can call themselves. Sure that person might be naive for saying "I'm a Macross fan because Robotech uses the same footage" and I will agree its naive but leave it to them to learn that for themselves.

Are people right for saying I don't believe in God because I've gone on record as saying I'm an agnostic? No, they are making a judgement call based on a limited understanding of my perspective that is not their prerogative to make.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Ok that's right, then I will only say the oppresors are not the oppresors because they are the majority but because they oppress, like in A Bugs Life, the ants were much more than the grasshoppers but were oppressed so throughly they believe they were weaker despite even Hopper knowing the ants could fight back once they figured this out, the way of thinking that just being the majority equals being opressors is the sort of thinking that could lead to "Once LGBT people are the majority THEY will be the oppresors!" No, its having power and weilding it and to opress people that makes someone the oppresor.

[MasenkoHA]

. I would have no problem with a Macross fan telling someone who has only watched Robotech they are not the same show, what I vehemently detest is the Macross fan making a judgement call on what the person only watching Robotech can call themselves. Sure that person might be naive for saying "I'm a Macross fan because Robotech uses the same footage" and I will agree its naive but leave it to them to learn that for themselves.

And just like the Super Sentai/Power Rangers example from before, this hypothetical person does not exist. Nobody who only likes Robotech and has no interest in Macross is going to call themselves a Macross fan, they'll tell you they're a Robotech fan because the show they enjoy isn't called Macross.

Are people right for saying I don't believe in God because I've gone on record as saying I'm an agnostic? .

They would have a misunderstanding of what agnostic means, which is irrelevant to the discussion on hand.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

And just like the Super Sentai/Power Rangers example from before, this hypothetical person does not exist. Nobody who only likes Robotech and has no interest in Macross is going to call themselves a Macross fan, they'll tell you they're a Robotech fan because the show they enjoy isn't called Macross.

And for that reason why even entertain the hypothetical where Funimation renamed Dragon Ball? Sub elitists would love it because it would give them an excuse for deeming people who only watched that version "not fans of Dragon Ball" because they wouldn't be wrong, but again that is not the detractors call to make, it is the person consuming said adaptation, and if they claim to be a fan of something they aren't, so what? They can learn that themselves through educating themselves without being told they are not a fan of the source material.

They would have a misunderstanding of what agnostic means, which is irrelevant to the discussion on hand.

Sure, but the point I was trying to make is the similarity with how I illustrated the difference between how myself and Adamant come across, which people have been trying to argue is no different.

The idea Statement A = Statement B is like the many interactions I've had in my personal life where people have the misunderstanding Agnostic = Atheist. Neither is true. In both cases an unwarranted judgement call is being made.

In any case I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself about my Statement A vs Statement B explanation and to avoid constantly quoting myself people can go back and read it here, as it refutes the strawman stating two things are different is the same thing as sub elitism.

[Adamant]

I initially didn't bother replying to this nonsense because you wrote like a three page screed misinterpreting and taking offense at a post everyone else seemed to understand just fine. But Jesus Christ what the actual hell are you doing trying to discredit people by referencing fucking 12 year old posts of theirs, and quoting them massively out of context at that? Holy fucking shit are you for real?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Adamant, I understood what you were saying perfectly fine. I was pointing out there is a difference between how you and I come across when we're stating two things are different.

I'll say it again, which is the actual point people have been consistently ignoring:

Statement A : "Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball GT is a different show because of the drastically altered tone."

Statement B : "Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball GT is a different show to the Japanese version of GT and therefore if you prefer the former to the latter you are not a fan of the latter because they are drastically different."

Point of Statement A : These two products are drastically different and the same in name-only.

Point of Statement B : These two products are drastically different and therefore anyone who prefers the heavily altered version is not a fan of the original.

Statement A ≠ Statement B.

This thread has only overstayed its welcome because people haven't accepted my point and were saying by me saying Funimation's Dragon Ball GT is not the same as the Japanese version I'm making the same point you are. I'm not and I don't know how I can explain it any more, there is a difference between these two statements and the attitude they convey.

See in bold and underlined where Statement B differs. You will hear me say Statement A but not Statement B. From what I've seen you've only ever said Statement B, never Statement A. That tells me fairness and respect to everyone is not a priority for you as it is for me.

I can tell people if a dub is altered to the extent it bears little similarity to the original and is effectively a different show, but I don't take it the extra mile that you have by using that to determine whether or not someone is a fan. Its not your call to make. Only the person your referring to can say whether or not they are a fan of Dragon Ball, why deprive them of that freedom?

And no I don't see the point in your thought experiment of what if Funimation renamed the show because all that would do is give sub elitists an excuse for telling someone whether or not they are a fan of Dragon Ball, so let's be grateful it never happened.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you no longer hold those views that anyone who watches dubs is of lower intelligence or mentally handicapped, but stop ignoring the difference between how your coming across and how I'm coming across.

I'm not taking personal offence, I'm just saying by all means say whatever dub is not the same as the Japanese version but please don't invalidate others in the process or even entertain the idea. It's wrong, and if you are trying to encourage people to watch the Japanese version (which I'm given to understand has been this sites goal from day one) your not going to, if I had never watched the series in Japanese I'd be turned off by others feeling they have a right to say I'm not a fan of Dragon Ball.

[MasenkoHA]

.

I'll say it again, which is the actual point people have been consistently ignoring:

Nobody's ignoring it, it's just not a good argument and strawman's Adamant and everyone else's point.

Nobody is saying you can't like both. Nowhere in this thread will you find a single person who proclaimed "If you like Funimation's Dragon Ball you can't ALSO like Toei's Dragon Ball"

The argument made by Adamant and everyone else has always been People who ONLY like Funimation's reinterpretation of Dragon Ball are not fans of the anime as it was originally created. And that's just true. Even you acknowledge that.

Statement A is what literally everyone has been saying. Statement B is a battle you made up yourself that nobody was trying to fight you on.

If you can acknowledge Funimation's Dragon Ball GT (which they even promoted as something different) isn't the same show as Toei's Dragon Ball GT, then you can understand someone who only (key word :only) likes Funi GT isn't a fan of Toei's GT.

Again I reiterate not a single person on here, including Adamant, claimed you can't enjoy both.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I know no one has said you can't enjoy both a dub and the Japanese version, but my point still stands Adamant was making Statement B, not Statement A. It's not a battle I invented, I've been calling him out for making a judgement call on others.

For the record here's s clear example of Statement B, I have put in bold the extra mile Adamant has went, which I would never take and urge no one else to:

Thought experiment, though: If Funimation or whoever had renamed the dub something else, like "Zero and the Crystal Balls", would these "hardcore Dragonball fans" still claim to be Dragonball fans?
If no, then... they probably aren't actually fans of Dragonball, no.

Again, I don't see the point in entertaining a hypothetical where Dragon Ball got the Cardcaptors treatment other than imagining an slternate timeliness where sub elitists had another excuse to unnecessarily belittle others.

Why can't making Statement A be enough, why claim to be an authority on whether or not people are fans? That's their decision whether or not they identify as one.

I just feel because this site has such a history of being anti-dub people will stick up for anyone making Statement A or deny they ever made Statement B out of fear they are giving dub fans the benefit of the doubt. I don't see people who only watched the dub as "not fans" of the original, that's their call to make. They are people who have not yet tried the original (just as I was pre-Super) but through courtesy, respect and kindness in our interactions with them they will be far more likely to.

[Vegard Aune]

I'm a huge fan of the Lord of the Rings movie trilogy by Peter Jackson.
I do not particularly care for Lord of the Rings, the trilogy of novels by J.R.R. Tolkien.

Now, if you were to put me in a room with someone who loves the novels, but thinks the movies failed to capture what made the books good, then yeah, you could say we are both "Lord of the Rings fans", but at the same time it is kind of an objectively true statement that we would not be fans of the same thing. We'd be fans of two different products that have the same name and can in broad strokes be described as the same story, but when you get into the weeds of it, are very different. While I would not appreciate that person saying I'm "not a Lord of the Rings fan" due to my only really liking the movies, if this person's view of Lord of the Rings is specifically "Tolkien's original books and that's it", then from that person's perspective it is in fact true that I am not actually a fan of the work they are a fan of.

Probably the best equivalent I could think of here. And yes, I did pick an example that places me in the position of the one who only likes the inaccurate adaptation. And it's true, by the way; I love the Peter Jackson movies but find the books boring.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Also within the genre of fantasy another example might be Game of Thrones. Someone who has read George R.R Martin's books may tell someone who hasn't read them and has only seen the HBO show that adapts them "you are not a Song of Ice and Fire fan". Just because it's true it doesn't give them the right to say it.

I would not appreciate that person saying I'm "not a Lord of the Rings fan"

My point exactly, such a statement is needlessly confrontational when someone could say "Oh you like the movies, I think you should give the books a chance, they are an acquired taste but worth the investment" instead. That's what a healthy fandom needs, not people making judgement calls on another's behalf. That is a slippery slope towards far greater toxicity.

Disclaimer : I have never read J.R Tolkien's books, so I cannot comment on them.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Ironically I am a huge fan of the TheCW4Kids Toonzai/Vortexx airings of DBZKai but heartily admit these ARENT the real version and it's just a kid friendly broadcast for kids and the silly edits make great fodder for jokes.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Like how I unashamedly adore the Westwood dub, which is even less faithful than Toonzai/Vortexx Kai as it has less accurate scripts, replacement music, added SFX, an original OP and ED, better actors but with rushed direction. It was what aired in Ireland for the vast majority of the show, but despite its flaws it still gave people an idea of what this series was in broad strokes, enough to inspire us. I never heard anyone talk about "Superman Goku" as the dub's liberties were not the aspects we were aware of or took notice of.

I loved the Tom Keenlyside, John Mitchell and David Iris tracks, despite not knowing the score was replaced, I'm as nostalgic for their work as many Americans are for Team Faulconer. When Dragon Ball GT, original Dragon Ball and the movies aired with the original scores I did think there was a noticeable difference in style, like they were more retro sounding, but that wasn't a bad thing. I guess I was used to the series having different scores as even in Z before the Westwood era we had Ron Wasserman for the Saban dub and Faulcober Productions/Cakemix Studios for the Freeza, Garlic Junior and first airings of the Fusion saga episodes.

Myself and anyone else I knew who was into the show loved it and we were still Dragon Ball Z fans, we didn't have access to the Japanese voices other than in some video games, what drew us in was the characters, the world, the art style. Most importantly we were willing to try out the Japanese version one day, because the dub was our gateway, as I'm sure many other people's dubs were.

Back to the topic at hand these dubs did condition use to incorrectly pronounce Saiyan but I know that has been the case for all countries that aired Dragon Ball in English after the Philippines.

[Tian]

Like how I unashamedly adore the Westwood dub, which is even less faithful than Toonzai/Vortexx Kai as it has less accurate scripts, replacement music, added SFX, an original OP and ED, better actors but with rushed direction. It was what aired in Ireland for the vast majority of the show, but despite its flaws it still gave people an idea of what this series was in broad strokes, enough to inspire us. I never heard anyone talk about "Superman Goku" as the dub's liberties were not the aspects we were aware of or took notice of.

I loved the Tom Keenlyside, John Mitchell and David Iris tracks, despite not knowing the score was replaced, I'm as nostalgic for their work as many Americans are for Team Faulconer. When Dragon Ball GT, original Dragon Ball and the movies aired with the original scores I did think there was a noticeable difference in style, like they were more retro sounding, but that wasn't a bad thing. I guess I was used to the series having different scores as even in Z before the Westwood era we had Ron Wasserman for the Saban dub and Faulcober Productions/Cakemix Studios for the Freeza, Garlic Junior and first airings of the Fusion saga episodes.

Myself and anyone else I knew who was into the show loved it and we were still Dragon Ball Z fans, we didn't have access to the Japanese voices other than in some video games, what drew us in was the characters, the world, the art style. Most importantly we were willing to try out the Japanese version one day, because the dub was our gateway, as I'm sure many other people's dubs were.

Back to the topic at hand these dubs did condition use to incorrectly pronounce Saiyan but I know that has been the case for all countries that aired Dragon Ball in English after the Philippines.

I understand what you mean about this thing about being a "true fan" because we're already talked about it.

And I agree there might be some people who has some crazy ideas about what being a "true fan" of a work means.

Sure, I may not have played some video games of the franchise nor fully read the manga, but I still can call myself a fan because I've watched OG DB, DBZ, DBGT, DBKai, Final Chapters, Super, the movies and specials, played several games in both console and mobile and even collected cards. And now, I'm here expecting for Daima and Sparking Zero to be released.

Personally, I think everyone can be a fan in their own way. Even though I'm not freaking encyclopedia of the franchise or hoard my rooms with DVD sets and character figures, I'm still a fan.

Now, I honestly think that quoting what Adamant said twelve years ago wasn't a good way to address sub elitism.

Sure, the way he worded his feelings about dubs back then wasn't nice but everyone should be able to write their posts their own way.

And as fan of dubs, I don't really feel insulted. I'm aware there are people who might not like them and prefers either subs or voice-overs and it's okay.