Why are the English dubisms far too ingrained into the fandom?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Tian I disagree, I think Adamant hasnt done anything wrong NOW but if he posted that exact same post NOW, I would expect the mods to temp ban him or something at least. That post wasnt acceptable then and it isnt NOW. Sure he toned down the awfulness in the years between but he never really apologized and I cant help but seeing this as Kanzenshuu condoning this. To be fair, Kanzenshuu REALLY WAS a much more different place back then and I dont think the mods would have allowed that post now.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Now, I honestly think that quoting what Adamant said twelve years ago wasn't a good way to address sub elitism.

Honestly, I agree with you and in retrospect I kinda feel bad for showing him up, as I take it Adamant regrets what he said back then and no longer stands by it.

Sure, the way he worded his feelings about dubs back then wasn't nice but everyone should be able to write their posts their own way.

Yes, and honestly I hope Adamant didn't feel I was dictating what he can and can't say, all I ask is that he doesn't write anything that could potentially invalidate other fans. I know some will say we live in a world where people are too easily offended, but as someone who leans very strongly left I am always wary about swinging the pendulum in the other direction as we all need to have a certain level of restraint and I think sometimes when we don't have anything nice to say about other people it's better to say nothing at all.

Tian I disagree, I think Adamant hasnt done anything wrong NOW but if he posted that exact same post NOW, I would expect the mods to temp ban him or something at least. That post wasnt acceptable then and it isnt NOW. Sure he toned down the awfulness in the years between but he never really apologized and I cant help but seeing this as Kanzenshuu condoning this. To be fair, Kanzenshuu REALLY WAS a much more different place back then and I dont think the mods would have allowed that post now.

My concern is that Adamant wasn't disciplined back then, I hope he's not capable of posting such ableist diatribe but I would be far more willing to trust him if I knew action was taken, since we have no reason to suspect anything was done and he hasn't commented on his behaviour I'll always question his intentions.

I can say I have made some terrible mistakes many years ago, but I've been open with the people I've negatively affected in my personal life and said "I was wrong then but I've learned and you can trust me now". I hope Adamant is the same because its not a sign of weakness, I'd argue its anything but.

[GhostEmperorX]

Another thing I've rather quickly gotten to realize is that a much bigger problem than what "side" anyone happens to be on is people in general having little to no idea whatsoever just what exactly it is they happen to be talking about, which is one thing that contributes to a lot of circular discussions, unreal or ahistorical takes, misattributions, standoffs, etc (of course, at one point in time I was 100% guilty of these things myself).
And it would still be a problem even if somehow a lot of the official issues and splits didn't exist, since it's a given when dealing with large fandom spaces of any kind.

Only that with this one it happens to be amplified to the nth degree because of many of these divides to a scale seldom seen elsewhere.

At this point in time though, solutions have never been more accessible.

[90sDBZ]

I'll just give my 2 cents on the whole elitism discussion.

As a dub fan I completely get where Dragon Ball Ireland is coming from. I've defended the English dubs on here many times in the past, but these days I try to avoid getting involved in those debates. This is mostly because the debates are an uphill battle that lead nowhere. We all have our preferences, and having the exact same arguments over and over won't change them.

But Dragon Ball Ireland is right in saying sub elitism is just as toxic as the ignorant comments from certain dub fans. And he has a point about the former being enabled on this forum. There used to be a user called Penguintruth, who often referred to the Funimation dub cast as "a bunch of losers". If a dub fan were to come on here and post such a comment about the Japanese cast, they'd likely receive a warning.

To be fair that particular example was a long time ago. But even in more recent years I've seen similar stuff. Without naming names, I've also seen dub fans be referred to as "neurotic fanboys" on here, which obviously goes beyond criticising just the product itself.

Regardless of when certain stuff was said, if you read between the lines a bit, it's clear that certain people still feel the same way now as they did back then, even if they no longer outright say it.

I don't expect anyone to change their stance on the matter, nor do I expect toxic fandom to just magically disappear. This site is ultimately dedicated to the Japanese version, and defending the dubs on here will never sit right with certain members, no matter how well presented the arguments.

[TechExpert2021]

I felt like this thread has "drifted" itself from its original purpose...

Let me get this straight, I will never go after and unfairly judge fans who prefer FUNimation's heavily altered version of DBZ (both the 1999 and 2005 dubs) over the original Japanese version. This may sound like BS to some fans: while FUNimation's 1999 DBZ dub is a horrible dub, it was so popular with children at the time the dub was airing on Cartoon Network (hence the high viewership ratings at the time) and those who grew up with it. Explaining or detailing the criticisms of the dub (the voice acting, character representations, replacement soundtrack, etc.) is okay (it can be a bit sensitive to dub fans at times, however), but attacking them for preferring the dub over the original Japanese version is not.

Because I've seen and heard so many criticisms of the FUNimation dubs of DBZ (this includes both the original 1999 dub for episodes 68-291 and 2005 Ultimate Uncut dub for episodes 1-67) all over these forums, I decided to personally stick with the FUNimation dub of Dragon Ball Z Kai and permanently detach myself from the original FUNimation dubs. It's like those criticisms are trying to make me avoid the original FUNimation DBZ dubs like the plague. If I were going to watch DBZ from now on, I would instead watch the original Japanese version with English subtitles. DBZ never had a perfect English dub, which is why I was asking for a complete faithful English redub of DBZ that can replace the original DBZ English dubs in this thread that I don't want to revive.

Speaking to the thread's original purpose, the dubisms were far too ingrained into the English-speaking fandom, because, as MasenkoHA pointed out, many fans were exposed to the English dubs and a majority of those fans (mostly casual fans) use those dubbisms every day. Those reasons also apply to why the dubisms also appear in Dragon Ball games officially localized into English. However, what if the localization teams at Bandai Namco in the US, UK, and Australia decided to throw away the dubisms in favor of accurate spellings and translations of various names (like going with "Kame-sennin" instead of "Master Roshi", "Heavenly Realm" instead of "Kami's Lookout", "Freeza" instead of "Frieza", "Makankosappo" instead of "Special Beam Cannon", and so on)? Would English-speaking fans be upset if those dubisms got thrown away and purists would be happy about that? Not sure what the result will be, but I think that'll never happen. We have fans who have or were playing the Japanese versions of Dragon Ball games (e.g. non-Japanese fans playing the original Japanese version of DBZ Dokkan Battle instead of the "global" version), including those that were never released in the US (mostly those released on the Famicom/NES, Super Famicom/Super NES, Mega Drive/Genesis, Sega Saturn, and to a lesser extent the PlayStation (since Final Bout and UB22 were the only PlayStation Dragon Ball games to be released in the US)) before the Dragon Ball franchise was popular there.

I would like to move this conversation to another thread, shift this thread back to its original purpose, or discontinue posting on this thread and never bring it back. This thread has, as aforementioned, completely "drifted" away from its original purpose.

[Tian]

Tian I disagree, I think Adamant hasnt done anything wrong NOW but if he posted that exact same post NOW, I would expect the mods to temp ban him or something at least. That post wasnt acceptable then and it isnt NOW. Sure he toned down the awfulness in the years between but he never really apologized and I cant help but seeing this as Kanzenshuu condoning this. To be fair, Kanzenshuu REALLY WAS a much more different place back then and I dont think the mods would have allowed that post now.

I respect your disagreement, Cure. I'm aware Adamant used some hurtful terms like mentally-handicapped and some kind of action should've been taken (Although not sure if a warning was ever issued.)

But I doubt he truly meant it. This is not giving it a pass but I know that sometimes, people tend to be a little "edgy" when try to express their opinions about something either the internet or real life, and may forget that not everyone share their way of expression.

It's not okay but hey, they can't help to channel their feelings on what they say.

For example, when I write about dubs, I feel like I am not writing a bland text, I feel like I am writing my excitement and interest on them in form of text.

My concern is that Adamant wasn't disciplined back then, I hope he's not capable of posting such ableist diatribe but I would be far more willing to trust him if I knew action was taken, since we have no reason to suspect anything was done and he hasn't commented on his behaviour I'll always question his intentions.

That's understandable. You've got your reasons and I can't question them.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I've defended the English dubs on here many times in the past, but these days I try to avoid getting involved in those debates. This is mostly because the debates are an uphill battle that lead nowhere. We all have our preferences, and having the exact same arguments over and over won't change them.

Exactly, I don't know why anyone still wants to drag up dub vs sub debates or even entertain the idea of who is and isn't a "fan", "true fan", what have you. These are stupid discussions that Dragon Ball fans have been having for decades and I find them exhausting when there are far more interesting and productive conversations to be had.

Thankfully there's been many great threads by yourself and the other posters here I previously thanked for being part of the change in Kanzenshuu becoming a more welcoming place for all Dragon Ball fans no matter what language they watch or read it in.

Speaking to the thread's original purpose, the dubisms were far too ingrained into the English-speaking fandom, because, as MasenkoHA pointed out, many fans were exposed to the English dubs and a majority of those fans (mostly casual fans) use those dubbisms every day. Those reasons also apply to why the dubisms also appear in Dragon Ball games officially localized into English. However, what if the localization teams at Bandai Namco in the US, UK, and Australia decided to throw away the dubisms in favor of accurate spellings and translations of various names (like going with "Kame-sennin" instead of "Master Roshi", "Heavenly Realm" instead of "Kami's Lookout", "Freeza" instead of "Frieza", "Makankosappo" instead of "Special Beam Cannon", and so on)? Would English-speaking fans be upset if those dubisms got thrown away and purists would be happy about that? Not sure what the result will be, but I think that'll never happen. We have fans who have or were playing the Japanese versions of Dragon Ball games (e.g. non-Japanese fans playing the original Japanese version of DBZ Dokkan Battle instead of the "global" version), including those that were never released in the US (mostly those released on the Famicom/NES, Super Famicom/Super NES, Mega Drive/Genesis, Sega Saturn, and to a lesser extent the PlayStation (since Final Bout and UB22 were the only PlayStation Dragon Ball games to be released in the US)) before the Dragon Ball franchise was popular there.

I agree, and rest assured I never intended to derail your thread so much, but I am happy for us to transition towards putting it back on topic. To your last point I was actually thinking of making a new thread about why sub elitism is a massive problem, and why we should be every bit as much harsh and critical of it as the dub equivalent to divorce that point from the main point of this thread, but I don't think there's anymore that can be said on it at this point.

With regards dubisms in other media... at this point I don't think there's anything the video game companies can really do. Crunchyroll's subs for the Super simulcast used dub terms for the Japanese version, and I think the Super Hero home release but could be wrong.

As I recall Vegard Aune also said the Norwegian subs for Super Hero's theatrical run also featured nsmes like "Shenron" and "Krillin" despite both the Schibsted and Outland manga editions using "Shenlong" and "Kuririn". I'd guess the same applies for other countries natively subbed screenings.

We've also seen a gradual phasing out of Japanese spelling conventions on official merchandise, so love it or hate it I think its here to stay.

[Cure Dragon 255]

To be fair, I do think the "Having thicker skin" is indeed important... but I would never use it to enable bullying. This advice should be said to be VICTIMS to be able to bear a harsh world. As sad it is, it IS a much needed skill. But going "I can say whatever I want and if people dont like it they should just get thicker skins!" That's just enabling bullying.

Not that I am accusing Adamant, because going by his posts at the moment it seems he REALLY doesnt stand by those awful statements anymore.

Dub fans can inded be BEYOND AWFUL. "I Stand With Vic" Anyone? That was a shitstorm of awful. And sadly the Tohru Furuya rape thing shows its not unique to dub fans.

If you treat the people with respect, any statement that isnt outright awful can be said, especially criticism and especially criticisms that just arise as a matter of taste.

"Sorry, but I just dont like the dub, its too aggresively different"

"Sorry, but Masako Nozawa's voice just isnt for me."

"Sorry, but Super just made Goku too unappealing to me"

"Sorry, but GT is just so dull and boring."

All of these are just fine.

[Adamant]

You are now deflecting outright, Adamant outright went with "Dub people are mentally deficient.

Do you mean in the post from literally 12 years ago? That had nothing to do with the conversation on hand until it got weirdly brought up here? Seriously 12 years ago. Even if Adamant still holds that opinion (and to be clear I disagree with him on his opinion from 12 years ago) it's still irrelevant to what the conversation was about.

I said no such thing anyway, Mr Victim Complex here is quoting things way out of context.

[Cure Dragon 255]

You are now deflecting outright, Adamant outright went with "Dub people are mentally deficient.

Do you mean in the post from literally 12 years ago? That had nothing to do with the conversation on hand until it got weirdly brought up here? Seriously 12 years ago. Even if Adamant still holds that opinion (and to be clear I disagree with him on his opinion from 12 years ago) it's still irrelevant to what the conversation was about.

I said no such thing anyway, Mr Victim Complex here is quoting things way out of context.

Normal people would never want to watch a dub. Dubs are produced for people who can't read (ie young kids), to want to watch a dub as an adult would make you come across as severely mentally handicapped, or dyslectic to extreme degrees. To actually argue that dubs are preferable to subtitles is essentially saying "I'm an adult, I can't read, and I'm proud of it, because reading is lame". You just... don't.

Picture you sitting on a bus stop/train/plane/whatever with a normal-looking guy beside you. He takes up a book, then turns to you and says "Excuse me, could you read for me? I'm not very good at reading." Would you think of this as perfectly acceptable practice? Would you think this was a man of normal intelligence?

To be fair, I think this was just an old mindset you did grow out of... And the full quote was more like this in full.

Here's a question, Adamant; If they had ultimately decided to dub South Park into your native tongue, would you have cared very much?

It's a non-question. They would never have decided that.

And beyond you, what is public opinion of this practice like where you live?

To be perfectly blunt, because it's extremely hard to explain this shit to your average American who's grown up in American culture without coming across as offensive anyway...

Normal people would never want to watch a dub. Dubs are produced for people who can't read (ie young kids), to want to watch a dub as an adult would make you come across as severely mentally handicapped, or dyslectic to extreme degrees. To actually argue that dubs are preferable to subtitles is essentially saying "I'm an adult, I can't read, and I'm proud of it, because reading is lame". You just... don't.

Picture you sitting on a bus stop/train/plane/whatever with a normal-looking guy beside you. He takes up a book, then turns to you and says "Excuse me, could you read for me? I'm not very good at reading." Would you think of this as perfectly acceptable practice? Would you think this was a man of normal intelligence?

Is there some sort of notable history out there on sub vs. dub in your country?

No. Prior to bilingual DVD releases, people who enjoyed media aimed at a primarily young audience (ie Disney movies for the most part) accepted the fact that they got dubbed because a rather large chunk of the intended viewership couldn't read and lived with it.

The closest you'll get is when the geniuses behind the marketing of the recent TMNT movie assumed the potential audience would be children only and gave it a dub-only cinematic run, but that mostly resulted in the 20-somethings fanbase shrugging, saying "fuck that, enjoy your lost ticket sales" and either pirated or waited for the DVD.

Welp, nevermind I was wrong its even worse in full. I do hope this is a thing you grew out of tho.

[Adamant]

Welp, nevermind I was wrong its even worse in full. I do hope this is a thing you grew out of tho.

...You're absolutely free to come over and observe our supposed thriving dub industry for adults, I'll reimburse the travel cost if you can find it.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Welp, nevermind I was wrong its even worse in full. I do hope this is a thing you grew out of tho.

...You're absolutely free to come over and observe our supposed thriving dub industry for adults, I'll reimburse the travel cost if you can find it.

It doesn't matter if your country doesn't have a dubbing industry that's not limited to kid's media.

There are plenty of territories like Germany, France, Spain and various states in Latin America where dubbing is a respected field of work and form of acting.

If its not for you, fine, but always remember in this big wide world out there there's many, many fans of anime and other media that see dubbing as a valid art form and that's not going to change.

[Vegard Aune]

Welp, nevermind I was wrong its even worse in full. I do hope this is a thing you grew out of tho.

...You're absolutely free to come over and observe our supposed thriving dub industry for adults, I'll reimburse the travel cost if you can find it.

It doesn't matter if your country doesn't have a dubbing industry that's not limited to kid's media.

There are plenty of territories like Germany, France, Spain and various states in Latin America where dubbing is a respected field of work and form of acting.

If its not for you, fine, but always remember in this big wide world out there there's many, many fans of anime and other media that see dubbing as a valid art form and that's not going to change.

Dude. That twelve-year-old comment was specifically in response to Norway's attitude towards dubbing. In which case what he said back then might still be a bit over the top but... That is how dubbing is seen over here: Purely an accessibility feature for children and nothing else. Other countries having more respect for it does not change the fact that in Norway, it is not at all common for adult audiences to watch dubs unless they're watching it with children. Subtitles are the default around here.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Dude. That twelve-year-old comment was specifically in response to Norway's attitude towards dubbing. In which case what he said back then might still be a bit over the top but... That is how dubbing is seen over here: Purely an accessibility feature for children and nothing else. Other countries having more respect for it does not change the fact that in Norway, it is not at all common for adult audiences to watch dubs unless they're watching it with children. Subtitles are the default around here.

I'm well aware of that, but again Adamant was using the statement of fact about the Norwegian perception of dubbing as a distraction from his former hostility. We all know how much he hates dubs but it just seems like he's grasping at straws to invalidate them by any means.

Yes other countries respect for dubbing doesn't change how the practice is perceived in Norway but the reverse can also be said. It just seems xenophobic to ignore the fact ones own country doesn't have the final say on these things. There's plenty of aspects of Irish culture and the conservative attitudes of many, particularly in more rural parts I disagree with and think other countries are more informed on. That's just how it is anywhere.

Anyway I've made a new thread for anyone that wants to continue this discussion, as we've derailed TechExpert2021's main point in making it enough.

[Soppa Saia People]

Dude. That twelve-year-old comment was specifically in response to Norway's attitude towards dubbing. In which case what he said back then might still be a bit over the top but... That is how dubbing is seen over here: Purely an accessibility feature for children and nothing else. Other countries having more respect for it does not change the fact that in Norway, it is not at all common for adult audiences to watch dubs unless they're watching it with children. Subtitles are the default around here.

Not from there, but from what I've heard, Sweden is also kinda similar with that. Where it's mainly like, kids movies, that gets dubs in like theaters, whereas most everything else is just subtitled.

[Tian]

Not from there, but from what I've heard, Sweden is also kinda similar with that. Where it's mainly like, kids movies, that gets dubs in like theaters, whereas most everything else is just subtitled.

It's a common thing in all the Scandinavian countries.

Although the dubs for kids aren't exclusive for theaters, they are for TV and DVD as well.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Regarding Scandinavia one thing for any Danish fans here in particular is Dragon Ball Super is coming to DR1 this fall, and contrary to what we'd heard previously it is going to be dubbed.

Hopefully it does well and Scandinavian dubs can make a comeback, although for Dragon Ball specifically only Denmark ever got the series thus far. Sweden and Norway (and Denmark too for that matter) only ever got Dragon Ball Z movies 1-9 and the 2 TV specials.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Welp, nevermind I was wrong its even worse in full. I do hope this is a thing you grew out of tho.

...You're absolutely free to come over and observe our supposed thriving dub industry for adults, I'll reimburse the travel cost if you can find it.

Why is it so hard to just say "Sorry, but dubs just arent such a respected thing where I live, it is just my local perspective please dont think badly of me" And no this isnt, you said dubs in general and never specified you just meant locally.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Welp, nevermind I was wrong its even worse in full. I do hope this is a thing you grew out of tho.

...You're absolutely free to come over and observe our supposed thriving dub industry for adults, I'll reimburse the travel cost if you can find it.

I know this is a double post but IT FINALLY DAWNED on me that Adamant isnt just "Dub bad" but rather "Where I live, bad dubs are the rule" and now understand its hard to blame him for not loving dubs, even if he worded it wrong. Sorry Adamant.

[LoganForkHands73]

I haven't been as active here in the last few months but since I started dropping back in, I fell under the impression Kanzenshuu had become a dub fan's paradise. I see hardly any sub/dub elitism. Every new topic seems to be about some obscure Peruvian, Yugoslavian, High Elvish dub that two, three or maybe even four people have possibly seen in the entire global population. I tend not to get involved personally but I'm glad they have an audience.

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