Almost the entirety of the new era of Dragon Ball is Fanfiction, but done by Toriyama

[Cure Dragon 255]

UNPOPULAR AND UNCOMFORTABLE TRUTH ACTIVATE!

I think almost the entirety of the new era is Fanfiction, but done by Toriyama so it has a quality that is appealing but is ultimately inferior to the old run.

Let me explain.

By his very own admission, Toriyama doesnt really know characterizations or consistency by heart and had to reread the entire manga to get in the mood and prepare, And he deliberately forgets prior things because he says that's the only way new things can be born.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

It definitely has felt that way at times, the transformations feel like something straight out of Dragon Ball AF:





While I will always have a soft spot for Super because it finally fulfilled my curiosity about getting a new anime series that I could follow with the rest of the world I think it's safe to say it wasn't a passion project for Toriyama. As with everything since he seen Evolution it was a case of him being involved out of obligation to ensure other people don't ruin his creation.

[MasenkoHA]

It definitely has felt that way at times, the transformations feel like something straight out of Dragon Ball AF:

How?





Super: Simplistic to a fault. It's just Super Saiyan with blue hair

AF: Completely way over the top. Super Saiyan 4 on meth


I have problems with Super Saiyan Blue..existing but it's design is pretty much straight out of the Toriyama playbook

[AliTheZombie13]

I would never use "This reads like fan-fiction" to call a work of art bad, fan-fiction can be amazing.
Related to modern Dragon Ball, my biggest discontent is with how they're coming up with all these concepts that lead to nowhere and have zero consequence that just serve to damage the lore in the process. I'm supposed to believe that Goku found an entire multiverse filled with stronger people and gods that could decimate Majin Boo in seconds, and yet none of it is ever mentioned again (assuming EoZ still happens unaltered)? I swear, if Toriyama's name wasn't plastered all over this, people would be rightfully calling it filler.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

How?





Super: Simplistic to a fault. It's just Super Saiyan with blue hair

AF: Completely way over the top. Super Saiyan 4 on meth


I have problems with Super Saiyan Blue..existing but it's design is pretty much straight out of the Toriyama playbook

I didn't say all the transformations were like similar to AF.

I'm not surprised we didn't see a Super Saiyan 5 rehash. I wouldn't count Beast because the only similarity is the grey hair but it's standing up rather than Super long.

I think Super Saiyan God is more typical Toriyama than Blue as up to that point we had seen a pattern of many characters strongest forms being the least imposing (King Piccolo in his younger form, final form Freeza, Perfect Cell, Kid Buu).

I have a hard time believing Blue was created for any reason other than an excuse to sell toys.

[FlpShimizu]

Your opinion on this is not unpopular nor uncomfortable. Subjective as it is, it also can't be true for everybody. It's true for you.

But I get it. Without quality connective tissue between Toriyama's bullet points, the series lost some of the charm and characterization it had prior. I understand how that would feel like a fanfic.

Now that he's gone it'll be even harder to capture the feeling we had with the first two series. I'll stick around anyway.

[SupremeKai25]

No, here is the actual uncomfortable truth for all of the nostalgic Millennials out there:

Super is actually less fan-fiction and less milking of the brand than your beloved Cell saga, a cringe and edgy arc that exists just to milk the brand further after the immense success of the Namek saga. Imagine being such a badly-planned and badly-placed arc that the main villain changes three times, hilarious.

Super is actually a genuine story that Toriyama wanted to tell, for a wide variety of reasons. For instance, he wanted to fix the great mistake that was "Toei Goku", a pure hero whose primary goal is saving innocent lives. That is an anomaly, a mistake that should have never happened. Super's Goku reflects Toriyama's original plans for the character. You are welcome to feel nostalgic for "Toei Goku", the character who appeared in your beloved childhood show, but that is not Toriyama's Goku.

Oh, by the way, Super Saiyan 2 is literally just Super Saiyan with some lightning sparkles. Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Rosé, and Ultra Instinct are infinitely more unique and original than Super Saiyan with sparkles. Like people try to say "ooo but they are just recolors!!! how lazy!!!", but SS2 isn't even a recolour, how lazy is that?

Either way, Dragon Ball Super most certainly isn't "fan-fiction". It is a creation penned by Toriyama himself (fact), and thus part of the original storyline that the author wanted to tell (also fact).

[JulieYBM]

Fan fiction can be better than commercial art, so I really would not compare the two here. Dragon Ball suffers from being primarily thrusted by Toriyama and his limited views on storytelling combined with the limited views of a producer's desire to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Other creators (anime directors and writers) aren't given enough influence and freedom to push these projects outside of these boundaries, hence the limited nature.

[TheGreatness25]

I don't understand the argument, I'm sorry. Is "fan fiction" being used to describe ideas that you subjectively find to be lazy? I guess The Dark Knight trilogy was fan fiction too--I mean after all, not too much was really original. Except the difference being that Super was actually released with the original creator on board.

[MasenkoHA]

I don't understand the argument, I'm sorry. Is "fan fiction" being used to describe ideas that you subjectively find to be lazy? I guess The Dark Knight trilogy was fan fiction too--I mean after all, not too much was really original. Except the difference being that Super was actually released with the original creator on board.

I usually associate "feels like fan fiction" with "it feels like a fan wrote it" which is of course going to be a very subjective perspective and is incredibly broad.

Like GT feels way more like fanfiction to me

Goku was a lot more fun as a kid what if he became a kid again because of a wish? Ooh and what if came from even more powerful dragon balls created before the Nameless Namekian split into God and the Great Demon King? Oh and those Tsufurians that was mentioned once 7 years ago that had a war with the Saiyans? What if this was the motivation for the new villain? Super Saiyan 3 is badass but what if there was a Super Saiyan 4 that looked even more badass and tied back to Oozaru? Oh and Vegeta should get this form too because Vegeta is cool he never reached 3 but Bulma is a scientist so she'll invent a machine to bypass it.

Not that any of that is bad.

Conversely, Super just feels so much more corporate to me. Different Super Saiyan forms that are just palette swaps of the first and most iconic form because it's familiar but "different enough" and can be sold as toys. A whole slew of new fighters that can be sold as toys and introduced as playable characters in video games. Future Trunks gets brought back because he was super popular. Time supposedly passes but everyone is stuck looking like they're Buu saga selves so we don't offend fans at the idea these characters don't look how they remembered them in Dragon Ball Z. Give fans what they appear to enjoy but don't do anything too crazy.

[DragonBallFoodie]

Well, that's not too bad, unless it means he was half-hearted over continuing his story.

[Rafa Fast]

Considering that, then almost the entirety of the modern reboots, revivals or sequels to old TV/Movie series are official fanfictions, as most of the people consider them as inferior to the original work.

The MCU Phases 4 and 5 are fanfiction, but done by the same Disney and Marvel Studios.
The Star Wars prequel trilogy is fanfiction, but done by George Lucas.
The Dark Knight Rises is fanfiction, but done by Nolan.

That's normal and actually definitely not a unpopular opinion as it's literally just a alternate way of saying "the new is inferior to the old", if you ask anyone who thinks that Super is not as good as the first series and Z, to say that but using different words or terms, they'll say something very similar, or stuff like "Super is not canon" "Super is a alternate timeline" "Super is moneygrab" "Super isn't really necessary", I know the former two can have a different meaning, but I've already saw multiple people saying that just because they think Super is not very good, so they consider it not canon or not a true sequel, something like that.

That's how it works, and most of sequels aren't as good as the original, it's normal, nothing new. But I personally think sequels that are as good or even better than the originals should also be considered "official fanfictions", doesn't make any sense to me just inferior new works to be considered "fanfiction", Toriyama forgot or had to re-read the manga? That happens all the time to multiple creators, producers, directors, writters etc, they always need to look back at the source material.

[JulieYBM]

It's just not a very good term to use in reference to a sequel work. Like, people change, so obviously creators change as people even during the course of creating one work. Art doesn't just pop into existence in a second—it takes time, and a person will change over the course of that time.

'Fan fiction' is a separate fictional work based on a previous fictional work. Fan fiction is not created by the original author or by someone with the official legal license to create new works based on the original work, it's created by independent people outside of the legal framework. Dragon Ball GT (1996), Dragon Ball Super (2015 animated series) and Dragon Ball Super (2015 comic series) are three separate officially licensed pieces of art created with the legal license to be titled Dragon Ball and be based on the 1984 original comic. That isn't fan fiction, that is how commercial art works. Whether those three works also have artistic merit of their own is a separate issue altogether, but they are nevertheless not 'fan fiction'. Like, I write fan fiction (well, in the past). I specifically want to write stories that commercial interests would not have interest in giving an official license to (although, if Shueisha wants to give a girl the license to write official Dragon Ball stories, by all means, hit me up!) Shueisha the other production committee members all seek to create products that they can make a profit off of. That is going to be the continual guiding light of any official work—and the actual creators making these projects will hopefully be able to creatively pushback to give their projects whatever artistic value that they can.

The creation of commercial art is always a struggle between the corporate interests and the artistic interests of the workers who make said commercial art. Dragon Ball has been that, and will continue to be that, until the day that it is freed into the public domain.

[Rafa Fast]

I've seen countless times people saying that GT is not official, not kidding, I don't know with what intention this used to be said, if it was to justify its "inferior quality", of if it was because Toriyama wasn't involved in the story, but I swear that I've seen this being said several times with these exact same words, I'm sure someone here has already seen this, or worse, someone straight saying that "GT was made by fans", seriously, I'm not joking haha

[JulieYBM]

I've seen countless times people saying that GT is not official, not kidding, I don't know with what intention this used to be said, if it was to justify its "inferior quality", of if it was because Toriyama wasn't involved in the story, but I swear that I've seen this being said several times with these exact same words, I'm sure someone here has already seen this, or worse, someone straight saying that "GT was made by fans", seriously, I'm not joking haha

That's very sad to hear and I wish we as a society took art seriously enough to understand the trials it faces (like the nightmares of copyright law and commercialization).

[Skar]

Super is actually less fan-fiction and less milking of the brand than your beloved Cell saga, a cringe and edgy arc that exists just to milk the brand further after the immense success of the Namek saga. Imagine being such a badly-planned and badly-placed arc that the main villain changes three times, hilarious.

Toriyama did say he was burned out after the Freeza saga which could apply to everything he's written after that saga since whatever the Cell saga suffered from never really went away. Cell and Buu sagas were still regular sagas that tried moving the story forward and changing the status quo. Super is midquel that keeps the status quo mostly the same and they've acknowledged many of the ideas and suggestions existing solely for fan service. Not all of Super was like that but focusing on what they think would attract the most fans kinda describes almost every Hollywood sequel that's considered milking their franchise.

Either way, Dragon Ball Super most certainly isn't "fan-fiction". It is a creation penned by Toriyama himself (fact), and thus part of the original storyline that the author wanted to tell (also fact).

I think comments like these ignore what is being compared to fanfiction even though it gets pointed out in every one of these threads. It's not the entirely of Super and specifically the ideas that have appeared in fanfiction for the last 20 something years and only now being considered great or subversive. It also was only when an idea came up from Toriyama since when it was revealed to from Toei or Toyotaro then comparing them to fanfiction that have used the same ideas was fine.

[SupremeKai25]

Super is actually less fan-fiction and less milking of the brand than your beloved Cell saga, a cringe and edgy arc that exists just to milk the brand further after the immense success of the Namek saga. Imagine being such a badly-planned and badly-placed arc that the main villain changes three times, hilarious.

Toriyama did say he was burned out after the Freeza saga which could apply to everything he's written after that saga since whatever the Cell saga suffered from never really went away.

Well, No, that doesn't apply to Super. There's almost a 20-years gap between the end of the Dragon Ball manga (1995) and Battle of Gods (2013). No one remains burned-out after 18 years of pause, impossible.

Say what you want about Super, no one can deny that Toriyama came back brimming with ideas and potential. This franchise's setting has expanded immensely since 2013.

I think comments like these ignore what is being compared to fanfiction even though it gets pointed out in every one of these threads. It's not the entirely of Super and specifically the ideas that have appeared in fanfiction for the last 20 something years and only now being considered great or subversive. It also was only when an idea came up from Toriyama since when it was revealed to from Toei or Toyotaro then comparing them to fanfiction that have used the same ideas was fine.

And I think that what you people are ignoring is that no one can even define what "fan-fiction" means. Is "fan-fiction" just an umbrella term for "something that I find lazy or boring"? Because then, as someone else said, Super Saiyan 2 is fan-fiction. Literally just SS1 with some sparkles, it cannot get any more lazy and boring.

Toriyama's modern ideas are deemed great and subversive because that's exactly what they are. Great and subversive.

Look at Goku Black. Any 2000s fan-fiction about "Evil Goku" is just a Turles rehash. Just yet another evil saiyan who wants to kill everyone because he's strong and he should smash everything, because that's what evil Saiyans do. Dumb, stupid brutes with no higher ambition.

Toriyama took this garbage idea and actually crafted a unique personality and origin for this "evil Goku look-alike", who as it turns out is not even a Saiyan at all.

I, for one, am so happy that Toriyama subverted those fan-fictions. Words cannot even begin to express how happy I am that Goku Black isn't literally just an Evil Goku (like all those boring and mundane fan-fictions from the 2000s), but a concept much, much more complex and rich.



You're welcome to disprove this by bringing up any "Evil Goku" fan-fiction between 1995 and 2016 that is comparable to Toriyama's Evil Goku in terms of design, personality, origins, skill-set, pretty much anything. I'm afraid you won't find much at all.

Take Ultra Instinct as an example too. Are we really going to act like all those Super Saiyan White fanfics were nearly as complex and original as Ultra Instinct?

There's a lot of historical revisionism going on in this thread, people forgetting that those early 2000s fan-fictions were genuine garbage and not nearly as complex and unique as all of the ideas introduced in Super.

[Skar]

Well, No, that doesn't apply to Super. There's almost a 20-years gap between the end of the Dragon Ball manga (1995) and Battle of Gods (2013). No one remains burned-out after 18 years of pause, impossible.

Say what you want about Super, no one can deny that Toriyama came back brimming with ideas and potential. This franchise's setting has expanded immensely since 2013.

This argument is disingenuous when we know the majority of the ideas were suggestions to Toriyama and many were based on a character's popularity. Acknowledging an author is past their prime isn't criticism because it applies to almost every artist in existence. He's still burned out since he was only contributing some character designs, plot outlines, and writing a script for a movie every few years for a midquel.

And I think that what you people are ignoring is that no one can even define what "fan-fiction" means. Is "fan-fiction" just an umbrella term for "something that I find lazy or boring"? Because then, as someone else said, Super Saiyan 2 is fan-fiction. Literally just SS1 with some sparkles, it cannot get any more lazy and boring.

It's odd to accuse people of using umbrella terms when all you're doing is saying these ideas in Super are "complex", "subversive", and "great" without explaining why. Fanfiction is been defined every time one of these threads pops up. It's literally comparing them to nearly identical ideas done by fans before but not considered good until now. There's nothing with liking these ideas but also nothing wrong with having the same opinion regardless of who wrote it. The funny thing there was fanfic about an evil Kaioshin or God stealing Goku's body. I think both were based on modern anime and JRPG antagonists since it checks off a few of the same boxes but more rushed development.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Toriyama did say he was burned out after the Freeza saga which could apply to everything he's written after that saga since whatever the Cell saga suffered from never really went away. Cell and Buu sagas were still regular sagas that tried moving the story forward and changing the status quo.

I think the Buu arc is much more Toriyama than Cell. We get the biggest gag villain ever, natural subversion (like Fat Boo giving up killing simply because he was asked), great name puns (Bibidi Babidi Boo) and ultimately its Goku's story.

We will never know whether Super was a story Toriyama would have wanted to tell without corporate pressure. He seemed content living an early retirement after finishing the manga in 1995 and doing little one shots and designs for video games here and there, and was very clear in 2009 he didn't want a new series to be made.

Super does show the signs of being a product by committee. The Battle of Gods we got is Toriyama's revised version of Yūsuke Watanabe's story. Resurrection F milks the most popular villain. Universe 6 tournament was fine, also the first time aside from the other world tournament such a competition was held outside Earth. Future Trunks was an idea from the editorial room, pandering to fans of the titular character and evil Goku fanatics. Although it was somewhat of a happy accident it turned out to be something interesting even if it didn't stick the landing. Universal Survival arc was a neat, innovative idea for a tournament but it felt dragged out just for the sake of giving people action, and like Namek there was a time limit to meme about.

I don't hate Super, I'm glad it exists and we got a couple more ideas from Toriyama, they just weren't as creative as everything in the original run (other than Cell).

Would Toriyama have been struck by inspiration if he was left alone and TOEI never wanted to make a new movie in 2013 and come up with similar ideas? Maybe, but there's equally these stories are indistinguishable from your average Joe's fanfic.

And sure, fanfictions can be good. Anything Star Wars outside the original and prequel trilogies could be considered fanfiction but the Thrawn trilogy is a beloved series of books, the sequel trilogy is divisive but at least the first two movies have their fair share of defenders and most of the Disney+ shows are fine. I also hear some Middle Earth fans say Rings of Power is worth watching, which J.R.R Tolkien didn't write.

As for why "fanfiction" is such a derogatory term? I'd say its because there's an ocean of bad fanfiction out there that it carries such a stigma. The same would happen if Dragon Ball became public domain, although maybe it would help some artists exercise their creative muscles if they had the chance to get their low budget live action flicks and fan mangas legally licensed and become subject to critical scrutiny (which should be taken as an opportunity yo learn from their errors).

[Cure Dragon 255]

I want to ask you guys something. I am happy by the discussion this thread fostered, but I wonder if I should rename it to make a point I wanted to make with it clearer:

It's less that its fanfiction
And more that


The later years of Dragon Ball were made by Toriyama as an outsider, not as an insider like his earlier work
[/i

Sure Toriyama's super has a more unique, appealing and diffent voice... But is he just an outsider like his fanbase is now?

]Do you think I could rename the thread?