Almost the entirety of the new era of Dragon Ball is Fanfiction, but done by Toriyama

[SupremeKai25]

For what it's worth Toriyama himself was pissed off by Super, so much so that basic outlines for the Future Trunks arc were written and given out to convince him to come back. That was after reworking an existing story, bringing back a popular villain and a somewhat different tournament arc.

That is much different than how it was for the Cell arc where Toriyama where he had been in a routine for many years letting his imagination run wild and creativity started to dry up due to fatigue. It wasn't a gradual return and picking up where other people started.

While I find the Android and Cell arcs overrated there are plenty of story threads there that make it feel like a natural continuation of where the Freeza arc left off. Vegeta trains and proves to himself he could become a Super Saiyan, like Goku. Goku makes up for lost time with his son. The Red Ribbon Army's scientist was plotting behind the scenes and his creation becomes a worthy successor to Freeza, justifying being more powerful. Considering Toriyama's circumstances and having a young family at the time it's impressive how well that arc turned out. Was Super Saiyan 2 lazy? Sure, but it's a minor part of that arc and isn't trying to be the second coming of Super Saiyan, it's just... kinda there.

And what can you tell Me about the Majin Buu arc? Does it feel like a "natural continuation" of the Cell saga, where Goku died and Gohan became the new hero, and Super Saiyan "Rage" (it wasn't called 2 at the time) was the maximum peak of power?

It starts out following Gohan as the new protagonist,shows where the characters are after 7 years of peace and follows up on Mr.Satan being world famous for "killing" Cell and even introduces his daughter.


So yes, yes it does. And if you're trying to argue it doesn't then the same applies to your precious Zamasu arc as a follow up to the Champa arc

Then Super is also a natural successor to DBZ, since it starts with Goku enjoying a time of peace after defeating Kid Buu.

Also, you do realize that Zamasu learned about Goku's power by watching the U6 Tournament on Godtube, Yes? If that wasn't enough, the very crux of Zamasu's master-plan, the Super Dragon Balls, are introduced in the Champa arc (and Zamasu learns about them from watching the aforementioned Godtube).

[MasenkoHA]

Then Super is also a natural successor to DBZ, since it starts with Goku enjoying a time of peace after defeating Kid Buu.

Super wants to place itself as taking place after Boo was defeated but before the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai were Goku met Oob. The actual ending stated it was a peaceful era which is contradicted by Super where Beerus threatened to destroy the earth, Freeza came back for revenge, the fate of the earth and the entire universe was at stake for a tournament and Cell Max happened. Goku, a guy who forgets rivals and worthy opponents left and right when a stronger opponent comes along (Tenshinhan and Piccolo say hi) is still invested in a rematch with the reincarnation of Majin Boo even though he's fought way stronger opponents like Beerus, Whis, Golden/Black Freeza, Hit, Jiren, and Broli. Gohan had to learn he can't just be a scholar and rediscover a love for fighting (twice!) even though by the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai he's still just a nerd who retired from fighting.

Super isn't a natural successor to Z. It's the result of wanting to capitalize on the nostalgia of a 20+ year old story while not wanting to go past the manga's actual conclusion.

As much as you want to convince yourself Super is the story Toriyama wanted to tell it's just him realizing companies are going to bank off his most successful series and he might as well have input beyond "Sure, go ahead"

[tonysoprano300]

And what can you tell Me about the Majin Buu arc? Does it feel like a "natural continuation" of the Cell saga, where Goku died and Gohan became the new hero, and Super Saiyan "Rage" (it wasn't called 2 at the time) was the maximum peak of power?

It starts out following Gohan as the new protagonist,shows where the characters are after 7 years of peace and follows up on Mr.Satan being world famous for "killing" Cell and even introduces his daughter.


So yes, yes it does. And if you're trying to argue it doesn't then the same applies to your precious Zamasu arc as a follow up to the Champa arc

Then Super is also a natural successor to DBZ, since it starts with Goku enjoying a time of peace after defeating Kid Buu.

Also, you do realize that Zamasu learned about Goku's power by watching the U6 Tournament on Godtube, Yes? If that wasn't enough, the very crux of Zamasu's master-plan, the Super Dragon Balls, are introduced in the Champa arc (and Zamasu learns about them from watching the aforementioned Godtube).

Yea but the status quo never changes and the passage of time is never felt, you could skip the entirety of the Zamasu and still have 99% of the relevant details for the universe survival arc.

[LoganForkHands73]

I always find this particular criticism to be lazy and arse-backwards. Fanfiction as a general category of literature has a poor reputation, but you always have to give credit for fan writers because they do it for the passion (or practice), not profit, if only because they physically can't solicit payments in most cases. The situation with Dragon Ball Super is almost the exact opposite. Look, I like Super just fine, but it's hard to argue it was made with the most "artistically pure" intentions. Yes, Toriyama has always been a commercial artist, so that's nothing new, but there is undeniably something a bit more... corporate about the Super era. Once we got to the Universe 6 arc, which is officially the point where Toriyama stopped providing screenplay material in favour of loose story beats for other artists to follow (with more effort put into gags than plot), it's fair to say his heart wasn't really in it as much as before.

As for the frequent observations that the series lifts common fanfic ideas, Toriyama was so absurdly out-of-touch with the fandom and internet pop culture as a whole that he usually came to his conclusions independently, barring instances of his editors feeding him ideas based on what's hot. I'm no tokusatsu expert, but all the "false superhero" story arcs I've read about never seem to be straightforward cases of "the hero but BAD", there's always some mysterious identity-swapping aspect and that's what Toriyama drew from when designing Goku Black.

[tonysoprano300]

I always find this particular criticism to be lazy and arse-backwards. Fanfiction as a general category of literature has a poor reputation, but you always have to give credit for fan writers because they do it for the passion (or practice), not profit, if only because they physically can't solicit payments in most cases. The situation with Dragon Ball Super is almost the exact opposite. Look, I like Super just fine, but it's hard to argue it was made with the most "artistically pure" intentions. Yes, Toriyama has always been a commercial artist, so that's nothing new, but there is undeniably something a bit more... corporate about the Super era. Once we got to the Universe 6 arc, which is officially the point where Toriyama stopped providing screenplay material in favour of loose story beats for other artists to follow (with more effort put into gags than plot), it's fair to say his heart wasn't really in it as much as before.

As for the frequent observations that the series lifts common fanfic ideas, Toriyama was so absurdly out-of-touch with the fandom and internet pop culture as a whole that he usually came to his conclusions independently, barring instances of his editors feeding him ideas based on what's hot. I'm no tokusatsu expert, but all the "false superhero" story arcs I've read about never seem to be straightforward cases of "the hero but BAD", there's always some mysterious identity-swapping aspect and that's what Toriyama drew from when designing Goku Black.

I think the similarities between Goku Black arc and DBAF Xicor saga are a little too similar to chalk up to coincidence. Especially when Toyataru himself wrote DBAF. I could definitely be wrong of course but its just really hard not to draw parallels.

If I really stretch it, I think there’s some hint of Dragon Ball Multiverse thats present in TOP but admittedly they’re different enough.

Not to imply that Toriyama is familiar with these works, if i were to guess its probably Toyatarus influence?

[SupremeKai25]

I always find this particular criticism to be lazy and arse-backwards. Fanfiction as a general category of literature has a poor reputation, but you always have to give credit for fan writers because they do it for the passion (or practice), not profit, if only because they physically can't solicit payments in most cases. The situation with Dragon Ball Super is almost the exact opposite. Look, I like Super just fine, but it's hard to argue it was made with the most "artistically pure" intentions. Yes, Toriyama has always been a commercial artist, so that's nothing new, but there is undeniably something a bit more... corporate about the Super era. Once we got to the Universe 6 arc, which is officially the point where Toriyama stopped providing screenplay material in favour of loose story beats for other artists to follow (with more effort put into gags than plot), it's fair to say his heart wasn't really in it as much as before.

As for the frequent observations that the series lifts common fanfic ideas, Toriyama was so absurdly out-of-touch with the fandom and internet pop culture as a whole that he usually came to his conclusions independently, barring instances of his editors feeding him ideas based on what's hot. I'm no tokusatsu expert, but all the "false superhero" story arcs I've read about never seem to be straightforward cases of "the hero but BAD", there's always some mysterious identity-swapping aspect and that's what Toriyama drew from when designing Goku Black.

I think the similarities between Goku Black arc and DBAF Xicor saga are a little too similar to chalk up to coincidence. Especially when Toyataru himself wrote DBAF. I could definitely be wrong of course but its just really hard not to draw parallels.

If I really stretch it, I think there’s some hint of Dragon Ball Multiverse thats present in TOP but admittedly they’re different enough.

Not to imply that Toriyama is familiar with these works, if i were to guess its probably Toyatarus influence?

These "similarities" are very surface-level. It's like when people say that Moro is just a rehash of Perfect Cell. Maybe in terms of design, but not in terms of anything else.

I've never engaged with Toyotaro's fanfic, but I've just googled who Xicor and Toyotaro's West Supreme Kai are, and I can see the barebone and initial inspiration for Goku Black and Zamasu, but nothing more.




You have an evil Saiyan who is related to Goku and you have an evil Supreme Kai who is allied to that evil Goku look-alike, but nothing more.

Xicor is a Saiyan, while Goku Black isn't. There's a whole backstory there that makes Goku Black more original than Xicor and every other fanfic Evil Goku. You can't just ignore that. Every single Evil Goku fanfic I've come across is just about that, an evil Saiyan. Goku Black is original, because he's an evil Supreme Kai body-stealer, that's unique to Super.

Instead of pointing to Xicor and Goku Black, people should talk more about West Supreme Kai and Zamasu, both corrupted Kaioshin who think that a Kaioshin should rule over the entire Universe. However, Zamasu is still much more original and unique than West Supreme Kai.

I can see why you'd think that AF/Toyotaro gave Toriyama the idea of an Evil Goku and an Evil Supreme Kai, but ultimately Super's take on these concepts was much more creative and interesting than any fanfic.

Also, by the way, it wasn't AF that inspired Goku Black, as stated by Toriyama himself:




Toriyama just found the idea of a "False Son Goku" cool, which is why Super's take is so different from the fanfics. The fanfics just have an evil saiyan who is Goku's child or who looks him. The Super has an actual false Son Goku, a Supreme Kai who pretents to be someone that he isn't. That is the difference and why Super is ultimately superior to these fanfics.

[GokuTheMaster389]

Super is actually less fan-fiction and less milking of the brand than your beloved Cell saga, a cringe and edgy arc that exists just to milk the brand further after the immense success of the Namek saga.

I'm sorry for going off-topic but I have to ask. I keep seeing you saying DBZ is dark, emo, cringe and edgy, but can't you say the same for Super's Future Trunks arc? You've got Zamasu who wants to kill all mortals and completely desolates the universe, has long monologues about himself and practically has an emo hairstyle. I'm confused why you praise that arc and character so much?

[tonysoprano300]

I always find this particular criticism to be lazy and arse-backwards. Fanfiction as a general category of literature has a poor reputation, but you always have to give credit for fan writers because they do it for the passion (or practice), not profit, if only because they physically can't solicit payments in most cases. The situation with Dragon Ball Super is almost the exact opposite. Look, I like Super just fine, but it's hard to argue it was made with the most "artistically pure" intentions. Yes, Toriyama has always been a commercial artist, so that's nothing new, but there is undeniably something a bit more... corporate about the Super era. Once we got to the Universe 6 arc, which is officially the point where Toriyama stopped providing screenplay material in favour of loose story beats for other artists to follow (with more effort put into gags than plot), it's fair to say his heart wasn't really in it as much as before.

As for the frequent observations that the series lifts common fanfic ideas, Toriyama was so absurdly out-of-touch with the fandom and internet pop culture as a whole that he usually came to his conclusions independently, barring instances of his editors feeding him ideas based on what's hot. I'm no tokusatsu expert, but all the "false superhero" story arcs I've read about never seem to be straightforward cases of "the hero but BAD", there's always some mysterious identity-swapping aspect and that's what Toriyama drew from when designing Goku Black.

I think the similarities between Goku Black arc and DBAF Xicor saga are a little too similar to chalk up to coincidence. Especially when Toyataru himself wrote DBAF. I could definitely be wrong of course but its just really hard not to draw parallels.

If I really stretch it, I think there’s some hint of Dragon Ball Multiverse thats present in TOP but admittedly they’re different enough.

Not to imply that Toriyama is familiar with these works, if i were to guess its probably Toyatarus influence?

These "similarities" are very surface-level. It's like when people say that Moro is just a rehash of Perfect Cell. Maybe in terms of design, but not in terms of anything else.

I've never engaged with Toyotaro's fanfic, but I've just googled who Xicor and Toyotaro's West Supreme Kai are, and I can see the barebone and initial inspiration for Goku Black and Zamasu, but nothing more.




You have an evil Saiyan who is related to Goku and you have an evil Supreme Kai who is allied to that evil Goku look-alike, but nothing more.

Xicor is a Saiyan, while Goku Black isn't. There's a whole backstory there that makes Goku Black more original than Xicor and every other fanfic Evil Goku. You can't just ignore that. Every single Evil Goku fanfic I've come across is just about that, an evil Saiyan. Goku Black is original, because he's an evil Supreme Kai body-stealer, that's unique to Super.

Instead of pointing to Xicor and Goku Black, people should talk more about West Supreme Kai and Zamasu, both corrupted Kaioshin who think that a Kaioshin should rule over the entire Universe. However, Zamasu is still much more original and unique than West Supreme Kai.

I can see why you'd think that AF/Toyotaro gave Toriyama the idea of an Evil Goku and an Evil Supreme Kai, but ultimately Super's take on these concepts was much more creative and interesting than any fanfic.

Also, by the way, it wasn't AF that inspired Goku Black, as stated by Toriyama himself:




Toriyama just found the idea of a "False Son Goku" cool, which is why Super's take is so different from the fanfics. The fanfics just have an evil saiyan who is Goku's child or who looks him. The Super has an actual false Son Goku, a Supreme Kai who pretents to be someone that he isn't. That is the difference and why Super is ultimately superior to these fanfics.

Those are valid points, for the record I don’t think the Goku Black arc is a straight rip off but I do think it was influenced(even if that influence is surface level).

I don’t find the idea of an evil Goku that compelling because I feel like the Saiyan Saga already touched on the thematic idea of it in a way that was fairly compelling. Radditz essentially represents how Goku would have turned out had he not been exposed to the influences of the Earth and embraced his savage saiyan heritage. For all intents and purposes, he is evil Goku. The 3 saiyans in general represent what Goku was “supposed” to be. Narratively that arc solidified Goku as an Earthling and had him reject his evil saiyan counterparts. Any story that tries to do evil Goku again would likely just be rehashing what’s already been done imo.

In terms of the body snatcher idea…its whatever. DB technically already did that with Ginyu snatching Goku’s body then slowly drawing out its power so I kind of thought they would change up the formula a bit

[SupremeKai25]

Super is actually less fan-fiction and less milking of the brand than your beloved Cell saga, a cringe and edgy arc that exists just to milk the brand further after the immense success of the Namek saga.

I'm sorry for going off-topic but I have to ask. I keep seeing you saying DBZ is dark, emo, cringe and edgy, but can't you say the same for Super's Future Trunks arc? You've got Zamasu who wants to kill all mortals and completely desolates the universe, has long monologues about himself and practically has an emo hairstyle. I'm confused why you praise that arc and character so much?

Because that Super storyline doesn't take itself seriously.

Zamasu goes on long monologues about he is perfect/beautiful/intelligent/strong/etc., and no one cares about it, because everyone knows that he is coping. There is even a scene where he goes on one of his long monologues and Goku and Vegeta just talk over him. Zamasu and Black are cliché edgelords and that's played for laughs. No one takes them seriously (and so that's funny).

The Universe is devastated, but again the story doesn't take itself seriously. Instead of going into deep depression, they're partying and enjoying life.

Ultimately, the Future Trunks arc is much more in line with the comedy aspect of Dragon Ball than the edgy/emo aspect. Sure, Goku Black looks edgy, but no one takes him seriously (the characters even make fun of him for never shutting up and being so pompous) and the story never takes itself too seriously.


BTW, when I say that DBZ is emo/edgy/cringe, I am specifically referring to the Cell saga. I might be one of the very few people who actually think that the Buu saga is the best saga in DBZ.

Buu saga >>> Namek and Cell saga. The Buu saga is much more in line with the comedy and humour that we should expect from Dragon Ball, a story that shouldn't take itself too seriously.

Those are valid points, for the record I don’t think the Goku Black arc is a straight rip off but I do think it was influenced(even if that influence is surface level).

I don’t find the idea of an evil Goku that compelling because I feel like the Saiyan Saga already touched on the thematic idea of it in a way that was fairly compelling. Radditz essentially represents how Goku would have turned out had he not been exposed to the influences of the Earth and embraced his savage saiyan heritage. For all intents and purposes, he is evil Goku. The 3 saiyans in general represent what Goku was “supposed” to be. Narratively that arc solidified Goku as an Earthling and had him reject his evil saiyan counterparts. Any story that tries to do evil Goku again would likely just be rehashing what’s already been done imo.

In terms of the body snatcher idea…its whatever. DB technically already did that with Ginyu snatching Goku’s body then slowly drawing out its power so I kind of thought they would change up the formula a bit

We call it "Evil Goku", but Toriyama didn't call it "Evil Goku", he called it "False Goku".

The Saiyan sage is not a story about "False Goku". The Saiyans are not pretending to be Goku. Neither is Xicor, neither is Turles, neither is "insert Evil Goku fanfic from 2000". They're just Goku who never hit his head or whatever.

Goku Black is a "False Goku", because he's a Supreme Kai body-snatcher pretending to be Goku. That is what makes Super's take on this concept more original and unique than the fanfics.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Super is actually less fan-fiction and less milking of the brand than your beloved Cell saga, a cringe and edgy arc that exists just to milk the brand further after the immense success of the Namek saga.

I'm sorry for going off-topic but I have to ask. I keep seeing you saying DBZ is dark, emo, cringe and edgy, but can't you say the same for Super's Future Trunks arc? You've got Zamasu who wants to kill all mortals and completely desolates the universe, has long monologues about himself and practically has an emo hairstyle. I'm confused why you praise that arc and character so much?

Because that Super storyline doesn't take itself seriously.

Zamasu goes on long monologues about he is perfect/beautiful/intelligent/strong/etc., and no one cares about it, because everyone knows that he is coping. There is even a scene where he goes on one of his long monologues and Goku and Vegeta just talk over him. Zamasu and Black are cliché edgelords and that's played for laughs. No one takes them seriously (and so that's funny).

The Universe is devastated, but again the story doesn't take itself seriously. Instead of going into deep depression, they're partying and enjoying life.

Ultimately, the Future Trunks arc is much more in line with the comedy aspect of Dragon Ball than the edgy/emo aspect. Sure, Goku Black looks edgy, but no one takes him seriously (the characters even make fun of him for never shutting up and being so pompous) and the story never takes itself too seriously.


BTW, when I say that DBZ is emo/edgy/cringe, I am specifically referring to the Cell saga. I might be one of the very few people who actually think that the Buu saga is the best saga in DBZ.

Buu saga >>> Namek and Cell saga. The Buu saga is much more in line with the comedy and humour that we should expect from Dragon Ball, a story that shouldn't take itself too seriously.

Wow, when I saw the first half of this post I thought a Zamasu hater was writing it, I am glad this is fun and free storyline, Zamasu's arc was very fun to follow.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Because that Super storyline doesn't take itself seriously.

Zamasu goes on long monologues about he is perfect/beautiful/intelligent/strong/etc., and no one cares about it, because everyone knows that he is coping. There is even a scene where he goes on one of his long monologues and Goku and Vegeta just talk over him. Zamasu and Black are cliché edgelords and that's played for laughs. No one takes them seriously (and so that's funny).

The Universe is devastated, but again the story doesn't take itself seriously. Instead of going into deep depression, they're partying and enjoying life.

Ultimately, the Future Trunks arc is much more in line with the comedy aspect of Dragon Ball than the edgy/emo aspect. Sure, Goku Black looks edgy, but no one takes him seriously (the characters even make fun of him for never shutting up and being so pompous) and the story never takes itself too seriously.

On the contrary the Goku Black arc tries very hard to be taken seriously.

It literally starts off with Bulma being murdered in cold blood right in front of Trunks' eyes, not to mention Goten and Chi-Chi later. It's also the first time in the series the Dragon Balls couldn't bail out our heroes, Future Trunks' entire timeline is wiped irreversibly, leaving Trunks and Mai to just move on. Sumitomo's score in the episodes themselves and the NEPs takes a much more ominous turn.

This is definitely not an arc that wholeheartedly embraces the comedy in Dragon Ball, if anything it takes a backseat. At the time a lot of fans were excited because it was the first time there was genuine tension in Super.

[SupremeKai25]

Because that Super storyline doesn't take itself seriously.

Zamasu goes on long monologues about he is perfect/beautiful/intelligent/strong/etc., and no one cares about it, because everyone knows that he is coping. There is even a scene where he goes on one of his long monologues and Goku and Vegeta just talk over him. Zamasu and Black are cliché edgelords and that's played for laughs. No one takes them seriously (and so that's funny).

The Universe is devastated, but again the story doesn't take itself seriously. Instead of going into deep depression, they're partying and enjoying life.

Ultimately, the Future Trunks arc is much more in line with the comedy aspect of Dragon Ball than the edgy/emo aspect. Sure, Goku Black looks edgy, but no one takes him seriously (the characters even make fun of him for never shutting up and being so pompous) and the story never takes itself too seriously.

On the contrary the Goku Black arc tries very hard to be taken seriously. For the first time in the series the Dragon Balls can't bail out our heroes, Future Trunks' entire timeline is wiped irreversibly, leaving Trunks and Mai to just move on, and Goku Black murders Chi-Chi and Goten in cold blood. Sumitomo's score in the episodes themselves and the NEPs takes a much more ominous approach.

This is definitely not an arc that wholeheartedly embraces the comedy in Dragon Ball, if anything it takes a backseat. At the time a lot of fans were excited because it was the first time there was genuine tension in Super.

It's not "wiped irreversibly". A new timeline is created which is basically identical to Trunks' original one, except that they warn the Gods about Black and Zamasu's plan and erase them before it's too late. So, it's pretty much just the Trunks' original timeline, except that nothing bad ever happened because Zamasu was stopped in time.

People exaggerate on how "dark" the FT arc ending was. It's ultimately a bittersweet ending. They didn't quite kill Zamasu, but they still created a world of peace free from the Androids and Zamasu, which is what Trunks wanted since the beginning.

Now Trunks can spend the rest of his remaining life in a world of peace, without having to worry about Androids/Zamasu hunting him down ever again. Isn't that a happy ending?

And Yeah, there are dark moments in that arc too, I'm not saying that there aren't dark moments. But there were dark moments in the Buu saga too, like Spopovich vs. Videl, Majin Vegeta, Majin Buu genociding and eating people, etc. Yet no one denies that the Buu saga is the peak comedy/humour/fun in DBZ.

[AliTheZombie13]

On the topic that the arcs in Super are "fun and whimsical", they aren't. They really aren't.
The afterlife is confirmed to exist in Dragon Ball, and it gets wiped out multiple times. That means death is much more serious when it happens in Super than it is when it happens with the rest of the franchise, but despite this, Super treats it as if it's no big deal.

Trunks' entire timeline just ceased to exist, souls got literally erased???? "Eh, whatever, I'll just live in a similar enough timeline "
Entire universes get wiped out in the Tournament of Power, and yet nobody seems to care enough about it, treating it as if it were just another tournament for fun and not a battle to survive a fate worse than death.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Ironically, aside from the Universes being erased Dragon Ball Super has the least deaths of any of the series but is the one that takes the concept of death for granted the most. Piccolo's death in the Resurrection F arc was a cheap throwback to the Saiyan arc and left no impact other than "No biggie, we can bring him back with the Dragon Balls". The deaths in the Goku Black arc, like Bulma, Chi-Chi and Goten are much more brutal than the Boo arc where a lot are people being turned to candy and chocolate and eaten.

[Majin Buu]

Ironically, aside from the Universes being erased Dragon Ball Super has the least deaths of any of the series but is the one that takes the concept of death for granted the most. Piccolo's death in the Resurrection F arc was a cheap throwback to the Saiyan arc and left no impact other than "No biggie, we can bring him back with the Dragon Balls".

Piccolo being resurrected from that cheap death offscreen says it all about how seriously death was being taken at that point.

[JulieYBM]

Ironically, aside from the Universes being erased Dragon Ball Super has the least deaths of any of the series but is the one that takes the concept of death for granted the most. Piccolo's death in the Resurrection F arc was a cheap throwback to the Saiyan arc and left no impact other than "No biggie, we can bring him back with the Dragon Balls".

Piccolo being resurrected from that cheap death offscreen says it all about how seriously death was being taken at that point.

That era of Super is so strange. It really does feel like there was nobody at the wheel—which makes sense given how it was constantly being produced at the last possible second. I think it's really damning that a strong creative director wasn't allowed to have their say and then be given the time to make their vision come true for both animated version of that storyline.

[Majin Buu]

That era of Super is so strange. It really does feel like there was nobody at the wheel—which makes sense given how it was constantly being produced at the last possible second. I think it's really damning that a strong creative director wasn't allowed to have their say and then be given the time to make their vision come true for both animated version of that storyline.

Indeed. You'd think a new Dragon Ball series would have had more care put into it for as much as Toei wanted one.

[goku the krump dancer]

I thought fan fiction was just any idea thought up by someone outside of the official pen pushers.

Toriyama, his editors, the guys behind the classic 13 movies and now even Toyotaro are all part of or have been apart the official product. Their ideas regardless of how god or bad are what’s gonna push the story forward whether it’s canon or not. Even If ME! a fan,comes up with the coolest most interesting story that develops Gokus character in a cool way and gives him a cool new form, its only fan fiction because I’m not attached to the official product in any capacity out side of me using my debit card to buy new merch that I want I.E “a fan”.

[tonysoprano300]

I don’t think there’s any possible way to spin a timeline getting deleted into a happy ending lol

I would argue that the fact that nobody seems to give a fuck actually feels disturbing, almost makes the characters come across as a bit sociopathic. Those people still died, yes there are other timelines but that doesn’t negate the fact that this particular version of history is gone. The characters recognize this too when Zamasu sadistically reveals that he murdered Goku’s family. Goku was still angry about that even though he knew that it was an alternate timeline.

I don’t recall the humour in DB being so dark that the heroes would witness an entire universe’s deletion or the butchering of innocents without any hint of sadness, rage or horror. DB has never been that kind of series.

[SupremeKai25]

I don’t think there’s any possible way to spin a timeline getting deleted into a happy ending lol

Again, it's not "deleted", it's restored to an original point in time where everything turns out happily. It's a happy ending.

I would argue that the fact that nobody seems to give a fuck actually feels disturbing, almost makes the characters come across as a bit sociopathic

Good, that's Toriyama's Dragon team. They are not the Avengers.

The characters recognize this too when Zamasu sadistically reveals that he murdered Goku’s family. Goku was still angry about that even though he knew that it was an alternate timeline.

That is only in the Anime.

Toei has a penchant for the melodrama.

I don’t recall the humour in DB being so dark that the heroes would witness an entire universe’s deletion or the butchering of innocents without any hint of sadness, rage or horror. DB has never been that kind of series.

Again, Toei's penchant for the melodrama. In the manga, Zamasu and Black have already killed everyone save for one warehouse BEFORE Goku and Vegeta get to the future. Then they destroy the last survivors in that warehouse while they are back in the past. In the manga, which aligns closer to Toriymaa's vision of that arc in many ways, Goku and Vegeta never witness Zamasu massacre people.