Who came up with the idea that Goku couldn't use the Spirit Bomb while Super Saiyan?

[Kaywayk]

So we all know the scene in Super Android 13 were Goku tries to use the Spirit Bomb while Super Saiyan but ends up absorbing it instead. Krillin, apparently the expert in all things Spirit Bomb, exposits that Goku cannot use it properly while in SS because his heart is clouded with rage.
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This idea was later made canon in Dragon Ball Super, but there's nothing that really indicates this in the original manga. The only time Goku attempts it after achieving Super Saiyan is against Buu, and you could make the case there that he is simply too exhausted to transform, especially since he does it with no problems after his energy is restored. In fact, there's even Buu arc filler where Goku uses the Kaioken while Super Saiyan, so the idea of him combining his new form with his old techniques is something that obviously occurred to Toei.

Despite this, the "no spirit bomb while SS" rule is something that has been VERY consistent throughout the franchise, possibly even before Super Android 13! There are two video games which fit the criteria of "has super saiyan in it" and "released before Super Android 13". Those are "Super Saiya Densetsu" and "Gekishin Freeza!!". As far as I know, neither of them allows you to use the spirit bomb while playing as Super Saiyan Goku.

It seems weird that this rule was so consistently followed even though the franchise never hesitated to contradict other non-canon material.

What I'm getting at is, could this mandate have come from Toriyama himself? Was this something he told the anime/game staff before Super Android 13's production?

[WittyUsername]

I’ve never heard anything about Toriyama mandating that the Genki Dama can’t be used when Goku is a Super Saiyan. I always assumed it was something that either Bandai or Toei made up, and it became so ingrained in the fandom that DBS acknowledged it.

It’s worth noting that the anime version of the Tournament of Power also included a pointless scene where Freeza and Frost use that whole “100 percent” power-up, and treat it as if it’s a transformation. I can only assume Toei included that as a reference to the video games, which have consistently made that its own form. I don’t even understand why Freeza would still have it. I assumed his training made it so he would always be at 100% of his power.

[AliTheZombie13]

Wait, that's a thing? When was it ever stated he can't use the Genki Dama while SS?
I always assumed he was always at base because he exhausted all of his own energy.

EDIT: Just checked, it's from Super. and it's Kuririn explaining that "To use the Genki Dama, you need to have a pure heart, and Super Saiyajin is inherently malicious!"

Gotta love these random explanations out of nowhere. First, Kuririn says you can't use SS unless you have a pure heart, something that was NEVER implied before, then they train to control the rage part of SS, then Goten and Trunks are able to invoke it without having a single bit of rage in their hearts, then DBS retcons it back to "rage", now this again?

Was this really needed? Like... What does Goku using the Genki Dama as a SS affect in DBS' story?

[Cure Dragon 255]

So they DO have the courage to contradict Toriyama... And that power is used on stupid crap like this. Poop.

[Tian]

Gotta love these random explanations out of nowhere. First, Kuririn says you can't use SS unless you have a pure heart, something that was NEVER implied before.

Either Goku told him off-screen during the three years before the Gero's and 19's arrival or the little noseless bald guy made up that shit out of disbelief from seeing Vegeta as a SSJ.

[Kaywayk]

Wait, that's a thing? When was it ever stated he can't use the Genki Dama while SS?
I always assumed he was always at base because he exhausted all of his own energy.

EDIT: Just checked, it's from Super. and it's Kuririn explaining that "To use the Genki Dama, you need to have a pure heart, and Super Saiyajin is inherently malicious!"

Gotta love these random explanations out of nowhere. First, Kuririn says you can't use SS unless you have a pure heart, something that was NEVER implied before, then they train to control the rage part of SS, then Goten and Trunks are able to invoke it without having a single bit of rage in their hearts, then DBS retcons it back to "rage", now this again?

Was this really needed? Like... What does Goku using the Genki Dama as a SS affect in DBS' story?

It was made canon in Super but it was first mentioned on-screen in Movie 7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmCoNy6Gsg4
Krillin says it around 0:52 in that clip. It showing up in DBS (and how consistently this rule is followed across the franchise) is what got me wondering how likely it is the idea came from Toriyama himself. I agree it doesn't make much sense with the later developments in the SS form.

I’ve never heard anything about Toriyama mandating that the Genki Dama can’t be used when Goku is a Super Saiyan. I always assumed it was something that either Bandai or Toei made up, and it became so ingrained in the fandom that DBS acknowledged it.

It’s worth noting that the anime version of the Tournament of Power also included a pointless scene where Freeza and Frost use that whole “100 percent” power-up, and treat it as if it’s a transformation. I can only assume Toei included that as a reference to the video games, which have consistently made that its own form. I don’t even understand why Freeza would still have it. I assumed his training made it so he would always be at 100% of his power.

Hmmm, while it could just be Super doing a little nod to the fandom, its weird they went out of their way to spell it out in dialogue. With your Freeza example, they don't explicitly call his bulked-up state a "transformation", and we see have seen other characters like Caulifla and Cell enter similar states, so it doesn't seem like a straight up reference to the games.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think Toriyama had anything to do with it, otherwise, why have him turn SS in the next arc? Is there anything from TOEI material that came from Toriyama but isn't on the original manga? not counting GT or DBS' double run.

Nonetheless, I think it does make some sort of sense. In the Buu arc, some living beings were able to refuse to share their ki for the genki dama, so it's not a forceful thing, the lender has to consent.
Perhaps, the negative or agressive traits of SS, in a quantum level of sorts, prevents the proper gathering of ki, like the plants don't trust the requestor with their ki due to their energetic intensity.
SS is still taxing, right? even the mastered forms are still using more energy than advisable compared to the more natural (now transformation) approach of Gohan's ultimate form, according to Old Kai. So, maybe the plants can feel this being with an unsual usage of energy asking for more. The awfully credit person asking for yet another loan.


About Freeza, it was probably just for show, bulking up has been done by a plethora of characters with great ki control. Frost, however, only 2 arcs ago was still relying on his previous forms, so he might still treat it as a form.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Is there anything from TOEI material that came from Toriyama but isn't on the original manga? not counting GT or DBS' double run.

Yes, there is.

Toriyama designed some filler characters like Pikkon as well as Grand Kai and thought of some rough ideas he left to the anime staff to do as they pleased with, not dissimilar from how it is with Super with the story as we know it being TOEI's interpretation of some broad ideas they were offered to play around with.

A lot of the Saiyan arc filler came from Toriyama's head, as did Lunch chasing Tien, Yamcha being a baseball player, etc.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

EDIT: Just checked, it's from Super. and it's Kuririn explaining that "To use the Genki Dama, you need to have a pure heart, and Super Saiyajin is inherently malicious!"

Which is funny because Goku had already mastered Super Saiyan 1 by the Cell Games. And, when he first met Trunks he mentioned that before he initially could only power up when angry, but that he could control it by the time he returned to Earth.