Does anyone else think that Vegeta joining the Dragon team was ridiculous in retrospect?

[tonysoprano300]

Up until that point, we had never seen something like that in DB before. Sure, we saw villains change their ways and join Goku but none of them actually killed people. Oolong was just a conman, Yamcha was just a robber, Tien was an assassin in training but no evidence that he killed anyone and even Piccolo(A literal demon) didn’t kill anyone either.

Vegeta was a mass murderer, he was even worse than King Piccolo in terms of how much death and destruction he caused. He killed series regulars and he has even butchered children. He betrayed everyone in the Cell arc, and he betrayed everyone in the Buu arc. Yet nobody seems to care that much except Tien.

[SupremeKai25]

No, because that's Toriyama's Goku. Toriyama's Goku is not a hero, he's a pure neutral wild card who loves fighting above all else.

He doesn't really care about the fact that Vegeta killed people, he's not going to pass the opportunity of a rematch with the famous Saiyan prince.

The Cell saga is terribly-written so don't try to find any logic in it. Vegeta wasn't even the worst idiot in that saga, the award goes to Krillin for dooming the world just because an android kissed his cheek some time ago. Yet does anyone ever hold a grudge for that? Nope. Instead they're all like "look how cute they are, what an awesome couple they'll make. "

[MasenkoHA]

It's questionable that Bulma, whose type has always been "hot men" not damaged men or bad boys would sleep with Vegeta. But she had the available vagina for Toriyama to do his "Vegeta's Super Saiyan Son From The Future" idea so...

But no I don't think it's ridiculous for the Z team to put aside their anonymity for Vegeta when he was willing to fight a common more dangerous enemy.

[LoganForkHands73]

But she had the available vagina for Toriyama to do his "Vegeta's Super Saiyan Son From The Future" idea so...

That’s a truly cursed sentence bro

[Jack Bz]

It kind of makes sense in the sense of there being a necessity to it all. While Goku was gone after the Freeza battle Vegeta was the strongest person remaining on earth so they couldn't exactly challenge or confront him. There's a genuine chance he would just kill you if you bothered him at this stage in the story. And then when Goku came back the whole android threat was immediately revealed so there was a sense of temporarily putting aside differences to have more of a chance to fight against them. At the very least the story wasn't pretending he wasn't an evil person.

But yeah for people to straight up become his friend is insane, and especially Bulma having a child with the guy who's responsible for killing her boyfriend at the time is inconceivably heartless.

[Koitsukai]

I think it made perfect sense from a practical POV. He killed them all but there are still lingering threats, so it's not quite the time to clean up the house. And before that, Goku wasn't there so what else could they have done.
The guys just have to suck it up. Yamcha, Tenshinan, they are all openly against Vegeta being around. Piccolo isn't happy with him either, specially the Nail in him.

For Bulma, considering Goku wasn't around, maybe we can pretend she sacrificed herself to keep him content but ended up falling for him? I'm not sure if there was some line making sure Bulma taking one for the team is not possible.
Another storyteller probably would've told Bulma's inner struggle to get Vegeta's attention while not forgiving him for killing Yamcha and the others until she falls in love with him.

But Vegeta was too strong and things were too uphill for them to kick him out(even if they had the muscle to do it)

[Majin Buu]

In terms of what he brings to the story, no.

For me, Vegeta is at his best in terms of story function when he's being used as a wild card to facilitate plot developments. He's nominally on the side of the Dragon Team, but he can decide to screw them over and help the antagonists if it suits his own desires- Or he can decide to deliver a vital assist that tips the scales in the Dragon Team's favor. That dichotomy makes for an interesting character and makes sense for a character that was an outright enemy not too long ago and whose moral compass seems to be in flux.

[theherodjl]

I think it's the only way that Vegeta could ever find redemption & peace. He wasn't truly born a killer, Vegeta was made into one by Freeza's empire & the Saiyan drive to fight. Vegeta didn't live in an environment that could actually draw out a side to his personality that didn't involve violence or conquest, he simply had to do what he was told or else there would be immediate consequences. Note how the minute he officially wasn't in Freeza's empire anymore, Vegeta only actively killed Freeza's minions when they attacked him and later, other villains that were serious threats? He spared Frog Ginyu out of sheer pity, only felt like killing Krillin & Gohan when he thought there weren't any wishes left, and didn't try to conquer Earth despite being the strongest being on the planet until Goku returned. Vegeta was a damaged soul who needed a place where he could unwind from all the evil he was raised in, and Earth as well as the dragon team was the only place he could find it.

[JulieYBM]

I assume that Vegeta was popular, but at the same time, Toriyama didn't want to reuse him as an full-on antagonist, so he gets put into this little side role of technically having a similar goal to the others, but also not really because he's a giant piece of shit. Personally, I don't think that Vegeta had enough redeeming qualities to be made a recurring member of the cast of characters, most especially in the way that Toriyama stopped writing Vegeta as this cool kind of guy in the early Namek arc. Toriyama also isn't a good enough writer to give Vegeta's arrogance a funny flair to it, either, so Vegeta just quickly turns into this bland shit stain who gives Toriyama an excuse to extend the plot unnaturally, because Toriyama just hates planning his stories and having characters achieve some degree of thematic closure.

[MasenkoHA]

I Note how the minute he officially wasn't in Freeza's empire anymore, Vegeta only actively killed Freeza's minions when they attacked him and later, other villains that were serious threats?

The Namekian village Vegeta slaughtered in cold blood for a dragon ball says hello.

Literally the only thing seperating Vegeta from Freeza in the Namek arc was power. Vegeta WANTED to be in Freeza's position as Emperor of the Universe.

, only felt like killing Krillin & Gohan when he thought there weren't any wishes left

He was going to kill them after he got his wish. He kept them alive long enough to get the password. He didn't keep them alive out of the goodness of his own heart.

and didn't try to conquer Earth despite being the strongest being on the planet until Goku returned.

Which is right when his goal changed from "Rule the universe" to "Defeat Kakarot in battle"

I assume that Vegeta was popular, but at the same time, Toriyama didn't want to reuse him as an full-on antagonist, so he gets put into this little side role of technically having a similar goal to the others, but also not really because he's a giant piece of shit. Personally, I don't think that Vegeta had enough redeeming qualities to be made a recurring member of the cast of characters, most especially in the way that Toriyama stopped writing Vegeta as this cool kind of guy in the early Namek arc. Toriyama also isn't a good enough writer to give Vegeta's arrogance a funny flair to it, either, so Vegeta just quickly turns into this bland shit stain who gives Toriyama an excuse to extend the plot unnaturally, because Toriyama just hates planning his stories and having characters achieve some degree of thematic closure.

The problem is also Vegeta just kind of becomes good. It's drawn out (almost the entirety of the Z portion!) but the change is less gradual and more evil>evil but joining sides for a common stronger enemy>became complacent with earth life cuz eh>drawn back to evil for power>I love my baby mama, my son, and carrot boy

Tenshinhan and Piccolo had shorter redemption arcs and both were more satisfying

[JulieYBM]

I Note how the minute he officially wasn't in Freeza's empire anymore, Vegeta only actively killed Freeza's minions when they attacked him and later, other villains that were serious threats?

The Namekian village Vegeta slaughtered in cold blood for a dragon ball says hello.

Literally the only thing seperating Vegeta from Freeza in the Namek arc was power. Vegeta WANTED to be in Freeza's position as Emperor of the Universe.

, only felt like killing Krillin & Gohan when he thought there weren't any wishes left

He was going to kill them after he got his wish. He kept them alive long enough to get the password. He didn't keep them alive out of the goodness of his own heart.

and didn't try to conquer Earth despite being the strongest being on the planet until Goku returned.

Which is right when his goal changed from "Rule the universe" to "Defeat Kakarot in battle"

I assume that Vegeta was popular, but at the same time, Toriyama didn't want to reuse him as an full-on antagonist, so he gets put into this little side role of technically having a similar goal to the others, but also not really because he's a giant piece of shit. Personally, I don't think that Vegeta had enough redeeming qualities to be made a recurring member of the cast of characters, most especially in the way that Toriyama stopped writing Vegeta as this cool kind of guy in the early Namek arc. Toriyama also isn't a good enough writer to give Vegeta's arrogance a funny flair to it, either, so Vegeta just quickly turns into this bland shit stain who gives Toriyama an excuse to extend the plot unnaturally, because Toriyama just hates planning his stories and having characters achieve some degree of thematic closure.

The problem is also Vegeta just kind of becomes good. It's drawn out (almost the entirety of the Z portion!) but the change is less gradual and more evil>evil but joining sides for a common stronger enemy>became complacent with earth life cuz eh>drawn back to evil for power>I love my baby mama, my son, and carrot boy

Tenshinhan and Piccolo had shorter redemption arcs and both were more satisfying

Yeah, I don't really feel like Vegeta's arc is all that satisfying. Being revived by the Dragon Balls during the Majin Buu arc feels so tacked on with no real dramatic weight or build up. It's a figurative should shrug.

[AliTheZombie13]

Let's put things into retrospective here:

1) Goku seemed to be the only one even slightly interested in keeping Vegeta around, if only to fight him.
2) Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu were killed under Vegeta's order.
3) Kuririn expressed regret over not killing Vegeta back on Earth.
4) Kuririn, Gohan, Dende and Piccolo were absolutely not okay with allying themselves with Vegeta and only did so out of survival. When they had the chance to betray Vegeta, they all did so.
5) Piccolo had promised directly to Vegeta, after Freeza had been dealt with, Piccolo would kill Vegeta next.
6) Bulma didn't seem to have great opinions of Vegeta. She openly declared despising his genocidal tendencies during most of Namek. Her last meaningful interaction with Vegeta was trying to escape as he and Zarbon were fighting, only for Vegeta to declare he wouldn't let her or Kuririn escape alive, only barely surviving being killed by a Ki blast. She hated being on Namek. Vegeta is the one who sent her to Namek on a quest to resurrect her boyfriend, who was killed by him.

Now, combine all of that together and let's skip to the final scene of the Namek arc.

Goku isn't there, he was the only person who was even slightly willing to let Vegeta walk around freely. Every single other character had just witnessed Vegeta bragging about killing an entire village of innocent Namekians. What do they do about it? ... Nothing.

Because of a single suggestion to bring Goku's soul back to Earth, that doesn't even work out anyway, only so Vegeta can have the chance to kill Goku himself, everybody is suddenly cool with him and Bulma is openly flirting with him and inviting him to live at her home.... I'm sorry, what just happened?

It feels like logic flew out of the window here.

Bulma should absolutely start backing down in fear and running away for her life. Gohan, Piccolo and every other warrior Namekian should absolutely start beating the shit out of Vegeta. Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu in the afterlife should be yelling at Bulma for inviting their murderer to stay at her house.

Vegeta himself should start murdering everybody or at the very least enslaving them and ordering them to find the Earth's Dragon Balls to grant him the wish of immortality. That he accepts to live in total peace at Bulma's for months with no credible threat in sight is ludicrous.

I know everybody likes to trash the anime because "Ew, filler, not canon." But for the little time it deviated from canon, it made more sense. I cannot accept any of this as natural character progression but rather characters being dictated by the plot.

[MasenkoHA]

Let's put things into retrospective here:

1) Goku seemed to be the only one even slightly interested in keeping Vegeta around, if only to fight him.
2) Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu were killed under Vegeta's order.
3) Kuririn expressed regret over not killing Vegeta back on Earth.
4) Kuririn, Gohan, Dende and Piccolo were absolutely not okay with allying themselves with Vegeta and only did so out of survival. When they had the chance to betray Vegeta, they all did so.
5) Piccolo had promised directly to Vegeta, after Freeza had been dealt with, Piccolo would kill Vegeta next.
6) Bulma didn't seem to have great opinions of Vegeta. She openly declared despising his genocidal tendencies during most of Namek. Her last meaningful interaction with Vegeta was trying to escape as he and Zarbon were fighting, only for Vegeta to declare he wouldn't let her or Kuririn escape alive, only barely surviving being killed by a Ki blast. She hated being on Namek. Vegeta is the one who sent her to Namek on a quest to resurrect her boyfriend, who was killed by him.

Now, combine all of that together and let's skip to the final scene of the Namek arc.

Goku isn't there, he was the only person who was even slightly willing to let Vegeta walk around freely. Every single other character had just witnessed Vegeta bragging about killing an entire village of innocent Namekians. What do they do about it? ... Nothing.

Because of a single suggestion to bring Goku's soul back to Earth, that doesn't even work out anyway, only so Vegeta can have the chance to kill Goku himself, everybody is suddenly cool with him and Bulma is openly flirting with him and inviting him to live at her home.... I'm sorry, what just happened?

It feels like logic flew out of the window here.

Bulma should absolutely start backing down in fear and running away for her life. Gohan, Piccolo and every other warrior Namekian should absolutely start beating the shit out of Vegeta. Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu in the afterlife should be yelling at Bulma for inviting their murderer to stay at her house.

Vegeta himself should start murdering everybody or at the very least enslaving them and ordering them to find the Earth's Dragon Balls to grant him the wish of immortality. That he accepts to live in total peace at Bulma's for months with no credible threat in sight is ludicrous.

I know everybody likes to trash the anime because "Ew, filler, not canon." But for the little time it deviated from canon, it made more sense. I cannot accept any of this as natural character progression but rather characters being dictated by the plot.

I think a big problem is I have doubts Toriyama had any plans on keeping Vegeta around past the Namek arc. Vegeta had two narrative functions in the Namek arc. 1. Take care of Freeza's minions while Goku is en route to Namek 2. Exposit about the Super Saiyan so it's explained to the reader why Goku suddenly has ink free hair. After that it would have been just as well to kill him off for good (they didn't specify bring back only the good people killed by Freeza and his men because why exactly?)

Vegeta was probably kept around longer because he was popular with readers or Kondō insisted he would help gain female readers or something. Ergo the nonsensical reaction from the non-Goku cast at the end of Namek.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It's questionable that Bulma, whose type has always been "hot men" not damaged men or bad boys would sleep with Vegeta. But she had the available vagina for Toriyama to do his "Vegeta's Super Saiyan Son From The Future" idea so...

But no I don't think it's ridiculous for the Z team to put aside their anonymity for Vegeta when he was willing to fight a common more dangerous enemy.

Why not Launch then? She ALSO had a vagina, and a lot of comedy could have been had with Trunks inheriting her "Sneeze and change personalities" thang. Heck it would explain why Trunks did a complete 180 from his introduction.

Also this post DIDNT say it but it unintentionally implied Vegeta isnt hot, which IS TRUE, He's a short, ugly man.

[MasenkoHA]

It's questionable that Bulma, whose type has always been "hot men" not damaged men or bad boys would sleep with Vegeta. But she had the available vagina for Toriyama to do his "Vegeta's Super Saiyan Son From The Future" idea so...

But no I don't think it's ridiculous for the Z team to put aside their anonymity for Vegeta when he was willing to fight a common more dangerous enemy.

Why not Launch then? She ALSO had a vagina, and a lot of comedy could have been had with Trunks inheriting her "Sneeze and change personalities" thang. Heck it would explain why Trunks did a complete 180 from his introduction.

Also this post DIDNT say it but it unintentionally implied Vegeta isnt hot, which IS TRUE, He's a short, ugly man.

Lunch was already written out..

And it wasn't unintentional. That was my point. Vegeta isnt hot and we know Bulma didn't think he was because she didn't throw herself at him on Namek

[Cure Dragon 255]

Oh yeah in hindsight I should have specified HE'S UGLY because you already had said he isnt hot.

[DragonBallFoodie]

He never officially joined them, he was a sixth ranger-loner sort.

[jjgp1112]

I mean, Piccolo for all intents and purposes was the same guy that orchestrated the deaths of Krillin, Roshi, etc. and plunged the world into shit. Vegeta was only an "ally" in the loosest sense, circumstances keeping him around all the time; plus Vegeta's more of a psychopath with a hair trigger than somebody like Majin Buu who likes to destroy for the sake of destroying. He can function amongst regular people provided they don't get in his way or piss him off.

[tonysoprano300]

It's questionable that Bulma, whose type has always been "hot men" not damaged men or bad boys would sleep with Vegeta. But she had the available vagina for Toriyama to do his "Vegeta's Super Saiyan Son From The Future" idea so...

But no I don't think it's ridiculous for the Z team to put aside their anonymity for Vegeta when he was willing to fight a common more dangerous enemy.

You could make a very compelling argument that Vegeta was only useful during the Namek arc. In both the Cell and Buu saga’s Vegeta presence was an active detriment to the Dragon team.

Vegeta only served to make things worse in the Cell arc, if it wasn’t for him its likely that Goku goes into the ROSAT first and deals with Cell.

In the Buu saga, Vegeta was the definition of a giant baby. Without him, Goku and Gohan clear out Babidi’s ship before Majin Buu could be awoken.

In a diagetic sense, I can somewhat stomach that they would feel compelled to ally with him after they learn of the androids although even that is highly questionable for various reasons. Once he intentionally allows Cell to reach his perfect form and actively beats down anyone who tries to stop it? He can fuck right off lol

Namek Arc Vegeta was more of a wild card, it was an uneasy alliance but one that actually had benefit to the heroes

[MasenkoHA]

It's questionable that Bulma, whose type has always been "hot men" not damaged men or bad boys would sleep with Vegeta. But she had the available vagina for Toriyama to do his "Vegeta's Super Saiyan Son From The Future" idea so...

But no I don't think it's ridiculous for the Z team to put aside their anonymity for Vegeta when he was willing to fight a common more dangerous enemy.

You could make a very compelling argument that Vegeta was only useful during the Namek arc. In both the Cell and Buu saga’s Vegeta presence was an active detriment to the Dragon team.

Vegeta only served to make things worse in the Cell arc, if it wasn’t for him its likely that Goku goes into the ROSAT first and deals with Cell.

In the Buu saga, Vegeta was the definition of a giant baby. Without him, Goku and Gohan clear out Babidi’s ship before Majin Buu could be awoken.

In a diagetic sense, I can somewhat stomach that they would feel compelled to ally with him after they learn of the androids although even that is highly questionable for various reasons. Once he intentionally allows Cell to reach his perfect form and actively beats down anyone who tries to stop it? He can fuck right off lol

Namek Arc Vegeta was more of a wild card, it was an uneasy alliance but one that actually had benefit to the heroes

Only useful to the characters in the Namek arc but he was useful to Toriyama throughout.

Need someone to bully Bulma into not seeking out Gero before he can create the androids? Vegeta. Need someone tough enough to beat down Semi Perfect Cell but cocky and callous enough to let him devour 18 to become perfect? Vegeta. Need someone to fight Goku to give Bobbodi enough energy to awaken Majin Boo? Vegeta.