Does anyone else think that Vegeta joining the Dragon team was ridiculous in retrospect?

[Cure Dragon 255]

It's questionable that Bulma, whose type has always been "hot men" not damaged men or bad boys would sleep with Vegeta. But she had the available vagina for Toriyama to do his "Vegeta's Super Saiyan Son From The Future" idea so...

But no I don't think it's ridiculous for the Z team to put aside their anonymity for Vegeta when he was willing to fight a common more dangerous enemy.

Why not Launch then? She ALSO had a vagina, and a lot of comedy could have been had with Trunks inheriting her "Sneeze and change personalities" thang. Heck it would explain why Trunks did a complete 180 from his introduction.

Also this post DIDNT say it but it unintentionally implied Vegeta isnt hot, which IS TRUE, He's a short, ugly man.

Lunch was already written out..

And it wasn't unintentional. That was my point. Vegeta isnt hot and we know Bulma didn't think he was because she didn't throw herself at him on Namek

Toriyama gave an excuse as to why we dont see her anymore, but that's NOT absolutely making her return impossible. There is nothing stopping her from returning, Toriyama didnt have her be vaporized by Arc Villain dub Jour, then burnt the ashes in holy fire that prevents revival even by the Dragon Balls.

[tonysoprano300]

I mean, Piccolo for all intents and purposes was the same guy that orchestrated the deaths of Krillin, Roshi, etc. and plunged the world into shit. Vegeta was only an "ally" in the loosest sense, circumstances keeping him around all the time; plus Vegeta's more of a psychopath with a hair trigger than somebody like Majin Buu who likes to destroy for the sake of destroying. He can function amongst regular people provided they don't get in his way or piss him off.

King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr are not necessarily the same, Piccolo is a reincarnation but he still he sees himself as somewhat of a separate entity. There’s enough separation there to grant Piccolo jr immunity from the actions of the original Daimo.

I tend view Vegeta as a secondary antagonist, he’s often just as bad as the main villains.

[WittyUsername]

Why not Launch then? She ALSO had a vagina, and a lot of comedy could have been had with Trunks inheriting her "Sneeze and change personalities" thang. Heck it would explain why Trunks did a complete 180 from his introduction.

Also this post DIDNT say it but it unintentionally implied Vegeta isnt hot, which IS TRUE, He's a short, ugly man.

Lunch was already written out..

And it wasn't unintentional. That was my point. Vegeta isnt hot and we know Bulma didn't think he was because she didn't throw herself at him on Namek

Toriyama gave an excuse as to why we dont see her anymore, but that's NOT absolutely making her return impossible. There is nothing stopping her from returning, Toriyama didnt have her be vaporized by Arc Villain dub Jour, then burnt the ashes in holy fire that prevents revival even by the Dragon Balls.

The likely explanation is that Toriyama didn’t seem to care much for Lunch, so he didn’t feel compelled to write her back into the story. Besides, he probably also thought that Bulma being Trunks’ mother would provide a convenient excuse for him to have access to Capsule Corp technology.

[M16U3L2015]

A curious one that someone pointed out on X/Twitter is that the only one of the Z Team who never forgive Vegeta was Tenshinhan, even refusing to give energy for the Genkidama until he listened Goku.

Even in DBS, he was suspicious enough of Vegeta to suspect that he still held loyalty to Freeza.

[ABED]

Piccolo was the reincarnation of his former self, so yes, I would consider him a killer. It's why his arc with Gohan works so well. He starts from the literal embodiment of evil and ends up saving the son of his biggest enemy.

I don't think it's a huge leap to think the DB gang would be able to forgive him. DB is just that kind of world.

[AliTheZombie13]

Piccolo's redemption actually works. It's not like Bulma was inviting Piccolo to barbecues the moment Raditz was defeated. Piccolo was still very much evil, only agreed to ally himself out of survival, promised to conquer the world once everything was settled, but gave up and sacrificed for the child of his worst enemy. Only THEN the Dragon Team considered him an ally.

Meanwhile, Vegeta continues to commit heinous acts up until the Boo Saga, and everybody's still not convinced he's evil.

[ABED]

It's a longer arc but I think it still works. He's part of the team practically out of default. He wants to stay on Earth because he has nowhere else to go after the end of the Freeza arc, and his obsession is on Earth. Allying themselves with Vegeta starts off first as practicality. They need him to survive the fight. After Goku's death, Vegeta loses his desire to fight and remains on Earth. He gives into Babidi's spell out of desperation but by that point, he is fundamentally different. He's not good, but he does die committing a noble act. I wouldn't consider him a "good" buy in the strictest sense but he has changed.

[MasenkoHA]

Piccolo's redemption actually works. It's not like Bulma was inviting Piccolo to barbecues the moment Raditz was defeated. Piccolo was still very much evil, only agreed to ally himself out of survival, promised to conquer the world once everything was settled, but gave up and sacrificed for the child of his worst enemy. Only THEN the Dragon Team considered him an ally.

Meanwhile, Vegeta continues to commit heinous acts up until the Boo Saga, and everybody's still not convinced he's evil.

I agree with pretty much all this but want to say I think Toriyama is more suited resolving characters arcs within their first arc or two. Even Gohan pretty much got his character arc completed by the end of the Saiyan arc or at least beginning of Namek before Toriyama had to backtrack at the Cell Games. Then he somehow learned the same lesson about needing to fight like 3 times in Super's universe.

[JulieYBM]

Piccolo's redemption actually works. It's not like Bulma was inviting Piccolo to barbecues the moment Raditz was defeated. Piccolo was still very much evil, only agreed to ally himself out of survival, promised to conquer the world once everything was settled, but gave up and sacrificed for the child of his worst enemy. Only THEN the Dragon Team considered him an ally.

Meanwhile, Vegeta continues to commit heinous acts up until the Boo Saga, and everybody's still not convinced he's evil.

I agree with pretty much all this but want to say I think Toriyama is more suited resolving characters arcs within their first arc or two. Even Gohan pretty much got his character arc completed by the end of the Saiyan arc or at least beginning of Namek before Toriyama had to backtrack at the Cell Games. Then he somehow learned the same lesson about needing to fight like 3 times in Super's universe.

I absolutely feel like there was nothing that Toriyama knew how to do with Gohan after the Namek arc. Gohan got his big showing of standing up to Freeza, then got to ride off into the sunset after that.

Like, I know it's a cliché and all, but the Namek arc really was the best place to end the series. Yes, yes, Wakamoto Norio's Cell is my husband and all that, but still.

[tonysoprano300]

It's a longer arc but I think it still works. He's part of the team practically out of default. He wants to stay on Earth because he has nowhere else to go after the end of the Freeza arc, and his obsession is on Earth. Allying themselves with Vegeta starts off first as practicality. They need him to survive the fight. After Goku's death, Vegeta loses his desire to fight and remains on Earth. He gives into Babidi's spell out of desperation but by that point, he is fundamentally different. He's not good, but he does die committing a noble act. I wouldn't consider him a "good" buy in the strictest sense but he has changed.

Did they though? In a hypothetical timeline without Vegeta, Piccolo kills 19 and then Goku goes into ROSAT and kills Cell. Vegeta accomplished nothing aside from allowing Cell to power up.

Vegeta’s sacrifice against Buu is moving to watch but…again he created the situation to begin with. I just don’t see why either the characters or the audience are expected to care about his mid life crisis, this is a guy who has consistently fucked over and betrayed the dragon team for the entirety of the series at this point. Are they supposed to thank him for his sacrifice even though we know for a fact that he aided Babidi and nearly killed his own wife at the world martial arts tournament? All because he didn’t feel like waiting to fight Goku?

To quote Brandan Fillone: “Not only does he shit on our heads; we're supposed to say thanks for the hat.”

Goku treated Piccolo with far more skepticism at the onset of the saiyan arc, than he ever did

[jjgp1112]

It's questionable that Bulma, whose type has always been "hot men" not damaged men or bad boys would sleep with Vegeta. But she had the available vagina for Toriyama to do his "Vegeta's Super Saiyan Son From The Future" idea so...

But no I don't think it's ridiculous for the Z team to put aside their anonymity for Vegeta when he was willing to fight a common more dangerous enemy.

Why not Launch then? She ALSO had a vagina, and a lot of comedy could have been had with Trunks inheriting her "Sneeze and change personalities" thang. Heck it would explain why Trunks did a complete 180 from his introduction.

Also this post DIDNT say it but it unintentionally implied Vegeta isnt hot, which IS TRUE, He's a short, ugly man.

Because Trunks is essentially Saiyan John Connor and having a mother that's instrumental in the resistance effort is a key part of that connection; Launch was a one-note gag character that Toriyama in his own words assumed the fans had forgotten about.

[AliTheZombie13]

Did they though? In a hypothetical timeline without Vegeta, Piccolo kills 19 and then Goku goes into ROSAT and kills Cell. Vegeta accomplished nothing aside from allowing Cell to power up.

In that hypothetical timeline, Bulma kills Gero herself.

Vegeta’s sacrifice against Buu is moving to watch but…again he created the situation to begin with. I just don’t see why either the characters or the audience are expected to care about his mid life crisis, this is a guy who has consistently fucked over and betrayed the dragon team for the entirety of the series at this point. Are they supposed to thank him for his sacrifice even though we know for a fact that he aided Babidi and nearly killed his own wife at the world martial arts tournament? All because he didn’t feel like waiting to fight Goku?

To quote Brandan Fillone: “Not only does he shit on our heads; we're supposed to say thanks for the hat.”

Goku treated Piccolo with far more skepticism at the onset of the saiyan arc, than he ever did

Speaking as a new fan who just binged this franchise like two-to-three years ago... I can confirm that moment did absolutely nothing for me. And after it was done, I was like. "Okay, Vegeta, I'm glad NOW that you screwed up everything AGAIN and did your pointless heroic sacrifice... Is this going to stick? This is the third time you start crying and begging for redemption only to go back into being an asshole the very next arc. Are you going to stop acting like a baby and making things worse?"

Chapters later, he throws a tantrum over fusing and breaks the Potara. So the answer was "No."

[MasenkoHA]

Piccolo's redemption actually works. It's not like Bulma was inviting Piccolo to barbecues the moment Raditz was defeated. Piccolo was still very much evil, only agreed to ally himself out of survival, promised to conquer the world once everything was settled, but gave up and sacrificed for the child of his worst enemy. Only THEN the Dragon Team considered him an ally.

Meanwhile, Vegeta continues to commit heinous acts up until the Boo Saga, and everybody's still not convinced he's evil.

I agree with pretty much all this but want to say I think Toriyama is more suited resolving characters arcs within their first arc or two. Even Gohan pretty much got his character arc completed by the end of the Saiyan arc or at least beginning of Namek before Toriyama had to backtrack at the Cell Games. Then he somehow learned the same lesson about needing to fight like 3 times in Super's universe.

I absolutely feel like there was nothing that Toriyama knew how to do with Gohan after the Namek arc. Gohan got his big showing of standing up to Freeza, then got to ride off into the sunset after that.

Like, I know it's a cliché and all, but the Namek arc really was the best place to end the series. Yes, yes, Wakamoto Norio's Cell is my husband and all that, but still.

.

Right. To me his big moment will always be standing up to his mother in the hospital, telling her he will go to Namek to help bring Piccolo back to life. His standing and fighting against the Ginyu Force and Freeza was his redemption for being too scared to help during the Saiyan conflict and then he went back to studying just like Piccolo Ojisan said he could. That's it. His story was over.

[ABED]

It's a longer arc but I think it still works. He's part of the team practically out of default. He wants to stay on Earth because he has nowhere else to go after the end of the Freeza arc, and his obsession is on Earth. Allying themselves with Vegeta starts off first as practicality. They need him to survive the fight. After Goku's death, Vegeta loses his desire to fight and remains on Earth. He gives into Babidi's spell out of desperation but by that point, he is fundamentally different. He's not good, but he does die committing a noble act. I wouldn't consider him a "good" buy in the strictest sense but he has changed.

Did they though? In a hypothetical timeline without Vegeta, Piccolo kills 19 and then Goku goes into ROSAT and kills Cell. Vegeta accomplished nothing aside from allowing Cell to power up.

Vegeta’s sacrifice against Buu is moving to watch but…again he created the situation to begin with. I just don’t see why either the characters or the audience are expected to care about his mid life crisis, this is a guy who has consistently fucked over and betrayed the dragon team for the entirety of the series at this point. Are they supposed to thank him for his sacrifice even though we know for a fact that he aided Babidi and nearly killed his own wife at the world martial arts tournament? All because he didn’t feel like waiting to fight Goku?

To quote Brandan Fillone: “Not only does he shit on our heads; we're supposed to say thanks for the hat.”

Goku treated Piccolo with far more skepticism at the onset of the saiyan arc, than he ever did

The Vegeta we meet at the beginning of the series wouldn't have tried to make up for the trouble he caused, so I would consider that a significant change.

And that scenario with Piccolo and Goku is pure speculation. They certainly needed Vegeta in the Buu arc and it was even his idea about how to use the Dragon Balls.

[tonysoprano300]

It's a longer arc but I think it still works. He's part of the team practically out of default. He wants to stay on Earth because he has nowhere else to go after the end of the Freeza arc, and his obsession is on Earth. Allying themselves with Vegeta starts off first as practicality. They need him to survive the fight. After Goku's death, Vegeta loses his desire to fight and remains on Earth. He gives into Babidi's spell out of desperation but by that point, he is fundamentally different. He's not good, but he does die committing a noble act. I wouldn't consider him a "good" buy in the strictest sense but he has changed.

Did they though? In a hypothetical timeline without Vegeta, Piccolo kills 19 and then Goku goes into ROSAT and kills Cell. Vegeta accomplished nothing aside from allowing Cell to power up.

Vegeta’s sacrifice against Buu is moving to watch but…again he created the situation to begin with. I just don’t see why either the characters or the audience are expected to care about his mid life crisis, this is a guy who has consistently fucked over and betrayed the dragon team for the entirety of the series at this point. Are they supposed to thank him for his sacrifice even though we know for a fact that he aided Babidi and nearly killed his own wife at the world martial arts tournament? All because he didn’t feel like waiting to fight Goku?

To quote Brandan Fillone: “Not only does he shit on our heads; we're supposed to say thanks for the hat.”

Goku treated Piccolo with far more skepticism at the onset of the saiyan arc, than he ever did

The Vegeta we meet at the beginning of the series wouldn't have tried to make up for the trouble he caused, so I would consider that a significant change.

And that scenario with Piccolo and Goku is pure speculation. They certainly needed Vegeta in the Buu arc and it was even his idea about how to use the Dragon Balls.

It is speculation, but not unreasonable. I really struggle to recall a single meaningful contribution he made in the Cell arc outside of saving Goku(Which piccolo would have done anyway).

The Buu saga doesn’t happen without Vegeta, he is the reason Buu was able to get the necessary energy for his awakening. I don’t really see how they needed him when he was responsible for everything that happened.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

As someone else said, Vegeta going to space during this time period makes the most sense. He shouldn't move in with Bulma until he starts training for the Androids, and even then the hook up comes out of nowhere. I can't remember of a single moment in all of Z with them acting like a couple, only in Super and GT. Do they even show any care towards each other besides when Vegeta kills himself?

After that he's a key part of the story though. You take Vegeta alway, there's no story.

I agree with pretty much all this but want to say I think Toriyama is more suited resolving characters arcs within their first arc or two. Even Gohan pretty much got his character arc completed by the end of the Saiyan arc or at least beginning of Namek before Toriyama had to backtrack at the Cell Games. Then he somehow learned the same lesson about needing to fight like 3 times in Super's universe.

The bit about him having more potential than everyone hadn't been resolved yet though. Losing the fear of fighting was only half the journey, he still had to become the mightiest warrior he was predicted to be.

[MasenkoHA]

[align=]

The bit about him having more potential than everyone hadn't been resolved yet though. Losing the fear of fighting was only half the journey, he still had to become the mightiest warrior he was predicted to be.

Aside from the dub it was never said he would be the strongest just that Saiyan/Earthling hybrids were uber powerful. Nothing about his story required him to become the strongest in the universe. There was never any explicit promise for Gohan to surpass everyone. The fact that he was able to stand toe to toe with the rest of the Z warriors at the age of 5 was enough

It's clear as day Toriyama didn't even think of making Gohan the most powerful until roughly the time Cell became perfect. And we know he backtracked on that anyways...

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

As someone else said, Vegeta going to space during this time period makes the most sense. He shouldn't move in with Bulma until he starts training for the Androids, and even then the hook up comes out of nowhere. I can't remember of a single moment in all of Z with them acting like a couple, only in Super and GT. Do they even show any care towards each other besides when Vegeta kills himself?

I can't seem to recall there really being much (if any) scenes of Vegeta and Bulma as a couple either before or after being married. That's something which hadn't really been depicted until GT, the newer revival era films, Super and so on. In the original manga and anime OTOH....yeah no. Same as with Vegeta being a father and family man, it's only after the run of Toriyama's story where we really see that.

[ABED]

Did they though? In a hypothetical timeline without Vegeta, Piccolo kills 19 and then Goku goes into ROSAT and kills Cell. Vegeta accomplished nothing aside from allowing Cell to power up.

Vegeta’s sacrifice against Buu is moving to watch but…again he created the situation to begin with. I just don’t see why either the characters or the audience are expected to care about his mid life crisis, this is a guy who has consistently fucked over and betrayed the dragon team for the entirety of the series at this point. Are they supposed to thank him for his sacrifice even though we know for a fact that he aided Babidi and nearly killed his own wife at the world martial arts tournament? All because he didn’t feel like waiting to fight Goku?

To quote Brandan Fillone: “Not only does he shit on our heads; we're supposed to say thanks for the hat.”

Goku treated Piccolo with far more skepticism at the onset of the saiyan arc, than he ever did

The Vegeta we meet at the beginning of the series wouldn't have tried to make up for the trouble he caused, so I would consider that a significant change.

And that scenario with Piccolo and Goku is pure speculation. They certainly needed Vegeta in the Buu arc and it was even his idea about how to use the Dragon Balls.

It is speculation, but not unreasonable. I really struggle to recall a single meaningful contribution he made in the Cell arc outside of saving Goku(Which piccolo would have done anyway).

The Buu saga doesn’t happen without Vegeta, he is the reason Buu was able to get the necessary energy for his awakening. I don’t really see how they needed him when he was responsible for everything that happened.

He's able to distract Cell long enough for Gohan to kill Cell.

I get that about Buu, but at the end, without Vegeta's power, Goku doesn't make it several times over. And seeing as how this is a group that has let bad guys free or attain a greater level of power in order to facilitate a fight, they aren't ones to throw stones at Vegeta for doing the same. Vegeta was the reason for Buu being released, but Goku and Company have poked the bear before even after being warned not to.

Not unreasonable but speculation nonetheless.

Regarding Vegeta and Bulma, I could honestly see it. She's not the most morally discerning person and if there's a moment of connection, I could easily see them having a physical relationship. I know it's filler but I do like their scenes in the episode where she's taking care of him after he takes his training too far.

[AliTheZombie13]

Off-topic, but I do love that scene in Super where Trunks explains.

"Oh yeah, there was that Majin Boo thing, meh. I just killed the bad guys and ended the arc in literally 2 minutes."

Like, without Goku or Vegeta around, there would be no Majin Boo.
If that wasn't clear before, Super pretty much made it indisputable.