Does anyone else think that Vegeta joining the Dragon team was ridiculous in retrospect?

[tonysoprano300]

They didn't even need the Mafuba. Piccolo should at least be able to put up a good fight against Vegeta, same for Gohan. The other Earth warriors trained under Kaio. Unite everybody and gang up against him and he's good as dead.

And even if you throw that out of the window, Piccolo showed in the Cell Saga that he could've fused with Kami to become stronger than Vegeta in a second if provoked enough. The "But Vegeta is stronger than everybody else combined" excuse never held any weight, the only reason they're not ganging up against him or voicing any discomfort is because the story started treating him like a good guy.

Y'all are saying this like the Z Fighters have ever been known for being proactive. If Vegeta doesn't start shit...which he DIDN'T...then they see no reason to get rid of him. Vegeta's there with nowhere to go, his motive for wanting the Dragon Balls is now gone, he's patiently waiting for Goku to return; just treat him like a brown bear in the woods and everything's fine. Like I said, Vegeta's a psycho but not a guy who destroys for destroying sake; which he proved by behaving himself on Earth. We're basically talking hypotheticals and what-ifs here. If if was a spliff we'd be all fucked up.

Maybe, but once he starts threatening to kill bulma for trying to stop Gero and intentionally allowing Cell to absorb 18, then you could easily argue that he has to be dealt with. There’s no real excuse for the characters to tolerate him at the point where he shows himself to be just as dangerous as the villians themselves.

It might seem normal now but this kind of thing was unprecedented for DB at the time

[Cure Dragon 255]

Oh god, imagine if HARDCORE MAINSTREAM NOWADAYS internet existed during the CELL SAGA? I thought the BUU Saga would be the most bashed (Because it is nowadays, and most people go ABSOLUTELY BONKERS on other series' final arcs.) But the Cell saga is the most obviously haphazard, carelessly written arc bar none.

[jjgp1112]

They didn't even need the Mafuba. Piccolo should at least be able to put up a good fight against Vegeta, same for Gohan. The other Earth warriors trained under Kaio. Unite everybody and gang up against him and he's good as dead.

And even if you throw that out of the window, Piccolo showed in the Cell Saga that he could've fused with Kami to become stronger than Vegeta in a second if provoked enough. The "But Vegeta is stronger than everybody else combined" excuse never held any weight, the only reason they're not ganging up against him or voicing any discomfort is because the story started treating him like a good guy.

Y'all are saying this like the Z Fighters have ever been known for being proactive. If Vegeta doesn't start shit...which he DIDN'T...then they see no reason to get rid of him. Vegeta's there with nowhere to go, his motive for wanting the Dragon Balls is now gone, he's patiently waiting for Goku to return; just treat him like a brown bear in the woods and everything's fine. Like I said, Vegeta's a psycho but not a guy who destroys for destroying sake; which he proved by behaving himself on Earth. We're basically talking hypotheticals and what-ifs here. If if was a spliff we'd be all fucked up.

Maybe, but once he starts threatening to kill bulma for trying to stop Gero and intentionally allowing Cell to absorb 18, then you could easily argue that he has to be dealt with. There’s no real excuse for the characters to tolerate him at the point where he shows himself to be just as dangerous as the villians themselves.

It might seem normal now but this kind of thing was unprecedented for DB at the time

But again, the only person in any position to do anything about him is Goku, who doesn't care; and beyond that, their bigger concern was Cell anyway.

[Zephyr]

Nah, I never found this very ridiculous. At least not by DB standards. Yeah, Vegeta's a piece of shit, but like, welcome to the club, buddy. This is a group of weird assholes who put up with a ton of crap. Pieces of literal human garbage being invited to the cookout and calming down over time is basically one of Dragon Ball's central themes or whatever, whether Toriyama intended it to be or not.

I know the series really tries to play itself straight at times, especially once Vegeta's in the picture, but this is still a wacky world populated by a wacky cast of characters with wacky morals, standards, and tolerances. This is a story that, for the most part, should not be presented to anyone (especially children) as a guidebook on ethics. People projecting real morality onto them are always going to come out the other side incredibly frustrated. There are a ton of main cast members who did shit that would absolutely make me avoid hanging out with them irl. But that's okay, DB isn't about me; it's about some funny weirdos who kick ass, and whose world I would be absolutely terrified to live in.

Regarding Piccolo and Tenshinhan as acceptable additions to the friend group: should they be? If I were to go the strange route and apply real world morality and ethics to DB, and question where I'd draw the line on letting certain people stick around in the social circle, I feel like I'd be drawing the line way before Vegeta. You can say "oh, Piccolo's just the son of Piccolo Daimao", but, like, no, he's his reincarnation too. Same personality, same memories, same goals. Same guy. You can say "oh, well Tenshinhan was only training to be an assassin", but, like, that's also fucking sus? Plus, I remember what he did to Yamcha during their match, for no good reason at all. If I was going to be that generous with them, then I have no issue being generous enough with Vegeta to say "oh, well that was technically Nappa and the one Saibaiman who killed our friends, if you really think about it". And no, "but Vegeta was a mass murderer!" doesn't change my feelings, because that suggests that a regular murderer would be just fine. No thank you!

Regardless, why draw the line as late as these martial enemies turned rivals turned friends? They're not the only questionable figures that were kept around. Lunch is a generic criminal, robbing banks and shooting at people, thinking about hijacking planes and shit. Meanwhile, Roshi's over here habitually committing sexual assault, but they keep associating with him, too! Oolong as well.

If we're really being real and thinking of who we personally would accept into our social circle, then yeah, it was ridiculous that they accepted Vegeta into their little group. I certainly wouldn't be associating with that dude after the Saiyan and Namek arcs. But, y'know, I also wouldn't be keen on hanging out with Piccolo. Or Tenshinhan. Or Lunch. Or Oolong. Or Roshi. They've all done varying degrees of "shit that makes me not want to associate with you". They've all crossed my line.

But is it ridiculous that Goku and Bulma were fine with hanging out with him? I, uhhh, don't really think so. Not at all, honestly. Especially in retrospect, it's some pretty in-character stuff. Did Toriyama do a classic Bad Writing™ by writing a story such that them being fine with hanging out with Vegeta (or Piccolo, or Tenshinhan, or Lunch, or Roshi, or Oolong) is in-character? Also no, but I do think if you're going to draw that sort of line, Vegeta's a very arbitrary point to draw it at.

---

This topic's position in the broader discourse is amusing to me, because whenever the prospect of "Freeza redemption arc" comes up, that's usually the line for a lot of people. "Vegeta's acceptable, but Freeza is a step too far." Now Piccolo and Tenshinhan are acceptable, but Vegeta is a step too far. I say, why stop at them? Frankly, who in this cast of dipshits is acceptable? At what point do they not all simply deserve each other?

Reminds me of how, as far as Goku's reckless decision making goes, the line in my experience is usually drawn at "not preventing Gero from building those dudes", but I've noticed it getting pushed back to "Goku letting Vegeta go". I am eagerly waiting on people to take it to the logical end and turn on the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai's climax and resolution next.

[jjgp1112]

The first arc of Dragon Ball is basically It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia for kids, 20 years before that show aired.

[MasenkoHA]

Nah, I never found this very ridiculous. At least not by DB standards. Yeah, Vegeta's a piece of shit, but like, welcome to the club, buddy. This is a group of weird assholes who put up with a ton of crap. Pieces of literal human garbage being invited to the cookout and calming down over time is basically one of Dragon Ball's central themes or whatever, whether Toriyama intended it to be or not.

I know the series really tries to play itself straight at times, especially once Vegeta's in the picture, but this is still a wacky world populated by a wacky cast of characters with wacky morals, standards, and tolerances. This is a story that, for the most part, should not be presented to anyone (especially children) as a guidebook on ethics. People projecting real morality onto them are always going to come out the other side incredibly frustrated. There are a ton of main cast members who did shit that would absolutely make me avoid hanging out with them irl. But that's okay, DB isn't about me; it's about some funny weirdos who kick ass, and whose world I would be absolutely terrified to live in.

Regarding Piccolo and Tenshinhan as acceptable additions to the friend group: should they be? If I were to go the strange route and apply real world morality and ethics to DB, and question where I'd draw the line on letting certain people stick around in the social circle, I feel like I'd be drawing the line way before Vegeta. You can say "oh, Piccolo's just the son of Piccolo Daimao", but, like, no, he's his reincarnation too. Same personality, same memories, same goals. Same guy. You can say "oh, well Tenshinhan was only training to be an assassin", but, like, that's also fucking sus? Plus, I remember what he did to Yamcha during their match, for no good reason at all. If I was going to be that generous with them, then I have no issue being generous enough with Vegeta to say "oh, well that was technically Nappa and the one Saibaiman who killed our friends, if you really think about it". And no, "but Vegeta was a mass murderer!" doesn't change my feelings, because that suggests that a regular murderer would be just fine. No thank you!

Regardless, why draw the line as late as these martial enemies turned rivals turned friends? They're not the only questionable figures that were kept around. Lunch is a generic criminal, robbing banks and shooting at people, thinking about hijacking planes and shit. Meanwhile, Roshi's over here habitually committing sexual assault, but they keep associating with him, too! Oolong as well.

If we're really being real and thinking of who we personally would accept into our social circle, then yeah, it was ridiculous that they accepted Vegeta into their little group. I certainly wouldn't be associating with that dude after the Saiyan and Namek arcs. But, y'know, I also wouldn't be keen on hanging out with Piccolo. Or Tenshinhan. Or Lunch. Or Oolong. Or Roshi. They've all done varying degrees of "shit that makes me not want to associate with you". They've all crossed my line.

But is it ridiculous that Goku and Bulma were fine with hanging out with him? I, uhhh, don't really think so. Not at all, honestly. Especially in retrospect, it's some pretty in-character stuff. Did Toriyama do a classic Bad Writing™ by writing a story such that them being fine with hanging out with Vegeta (or Piccolo, or Tenshinhan, or Lunch, or Roshi, or Oolong) is in-character? Also no, but I do think if you're going to draw that sort of line, Vegeta's a very arbitrary point to draw it at.

---

This is all a good point. These characters are all kinds of varying degrees of terrible people. Sexual predators, a women who would sleep with a Nazi for being hot if he wasn't gay, a thief who probably did kill a few people here and there, a would be assassin who maimed martial artist, and a former mazoku who briefly took over the earth and announced he was gonna blow up a district every year for shits and giggles (and yes it is the same Piccolo even if being reborn made him less evil) . At a certain point you realize you're watching/reading Kung fu Always Sunny in Philadelphia

Genocidal warlord is pretty high up on the amoral scale but they're all pretty bad people. Besides Vegeta seemed like he had been pretty chill in the year between Namek and Mecha Freeza just chilling at the Capsule Corp Compound (in the manga when he never left to look for Goku) threatening to kill Bulma seemed more like him being a drama queen. She pretty much dropped the idea out of respect for Goku when he reasoned "Gero hadn't done anything wrong yet" t

. I am eagerly waiting on people to take it to the logical end and turn on the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai's climax and resolution next.

If it weren't for the whole "If Piccolo dies, God dies too!" fans probably would have.

[Cure Dragon 255]

The first arc of Dragon Ball is basically It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia for kids, 20 years before that show aired.

"The Gang does a Journey of The West manga adaptation"

[AliTheZombie13]

Y'all are saying this like the Z Fighters have ever been known for being proactive.

They were whereas King Piccolo and the Saiyans were concerned, it's from Cell onward that the inaction shit starts.

If Vegeta doesn't start shit...which he DIDN'T...then they see no reason to get rid of him.

"Grand Elder, we can't locate an entire village of Namekians."
"Oh, that must be the village that I wiped out, mwahahahahahahahaha!"

You know, when Piccolo wants to make terrible bone-headed decisions that put their entire mission in jeopardy like wishing himself to Namek because he wants to avenge his people, Piccolo makes them. But when someone is bragging in his face that he killed his people unprovoked, Piccolo's reaction is to do nothing. Interesting.

Vegeta's there with nowhere to go, his motive for wanting the Dragon Balls is now gone.

His motivation was to get himself immortal so he could enjoy fighting forever, by his own word.
Freeza was just a by-product of that.

Like I said, Vegeta's a psycho but not a guy who destroys for destroying sake;

"I destroyed countless planets and killed lots of people for no reason lols"
- Vegeta, any given time in Dragon Ball Z, including in the scene above.

In fact, during the Cell Saga, Vegeta plainly states to Trunks that killing someone for merely upsetting you or because you don't like them is prime Saiyan culture. By that logic, he should've killed Bulma the moment she made that proposal.

We're basically talking hypotheticals and what-ifs here. If if was a spliff we'd be all fucked up.

We're talking about whether Toriyama's writing in this specific aspect was bad or not.
I don't buy for a second Vegeta staying on Earth, it goes against his character, and it goes against everybody else's character to just accept him without justification.

[GTx10]

Sorry I would accept Tienshinha into my group faster than Vegeta. Tien wanted to be a killer which is bad but he repented and then in the Anime he begged that old man for forgiveness. Tien now lives a totally different life. Vegeta is a nutcase who has killed for selfish reasons. (Who waaaaay later repented)

At the Cell Saga having Vegeta around was messed up. Then Bulma bones him knowing his goons killed her ex? Eww. Granted everyone messed up in that arc expect for Yamcha, Yajirobe, Tien, and Chaotzu. I guess Piccolo too.
Omg it was the Saiyans. They messed up lol. Every Saiyan messed up lol.

[tonysoprano300]

Y'all are saying this like the Z Fighters have ever been known for being proactive. If Vegeta doesn't start shit...which he DIDN'T...then they see no reason to get rid of him. Vegeta's there with nowhere to go, his motive for wanting the Dragon Balls is now gone, he's patiently waiting for Goku to return; just treat him like a brown bear in the woods and everything's fine. Like I said, Vegeta's a psycho but not a guy who destroys for destroying sake; which he proved by behaving himself on Earth. We're basically talking hypotheticals and what-ifs here. If if was a spliff we'd be all fucked up.

Maybe, but once he starts threatening to kill bulma for trying to stop Gero and intentionally allowing Cell to absorb 18, then you could easily argue that he has to be dealt with. There’s no real excuse for the characters to tolerate him at the point where he shows himself to be just as dangerous as the villians themselves.

It might seem normal now but this kind of thing was unprecedented for DB at the time

But again, the only person in any position to do anything about him is Goku, who doesn't care; and beyond that, their bigger concern was Cell anyway.

The problem is that Vegeta just aided Cell significantly, the guy they are trying desperately to defeat so that they can stop the destruction of their world. They have no real reason to trust that he wont do it again. Not even just in the fight against Cell but going forward in general. So when the literal fusion of Piccolo&Kami tries to commemorate him at the end of the arc, it just seems like not only is it just a matter of the main cast being kind of silly, its that god himself has no issues with him either. Vegeta can just do whatever and literally nobody is gonna do anything. He has complete immunity.

[quote=Zephyr post_id=<a href="tel:1785872">1785872</a> time=<a href="tel:1721343064">1721343064</a> user_id=6762]
Nah, I never found this very ridiculous. At least not by DB standards. Yeah, Vegeta's a piece of shit, but like, welcome to the club, buddy. This is a group of weird assholes who put up with a ton of crap. Pieces of literal human garbage being invited to the cookout and calming down over time is basically one of Dragon Ball's central themes or whatever, whether Toriyama intended it to be or not.

I know the series really tries to play itself straight at times, especially once Vegeta's in the picture, but this is still a wacky world populated by a wacky cast of characters with wacky morals, standards, and tolerances. This is a story that, for the most part, should not be presented to anyone (especially children) as a guidebook on ethics. People projecting real morality onto them are always going to come out the other side incredibly frustrated. There are a ton of main cast members who did shit that would absolutely make me avoid hanging out with them irl. But that's okay, DB isn't about me; it's about some funny weirdos who kick ass, and whose world I would be absolutely terrified to live in.

Regarding Piccolo and Tenshinhan as acceptable additions to the friend group: should they be? If I were to go the strange route and apply real world morality and ethics to DB, and question where I'd draw the line on letting certain people stick around in the social circle, I feel like I'd be drawing the line way before Vegeta. You can say "oh, Piccolo's just the son of Piccolo Daimao", but, like, no, he's his reincarnation too. Same personality, same memories, same goals. Same guy. You can say "oh, well Tenshinhan was only training to be an assassin", but, like, that's also fucking sus? Plus, I remember what he did to Yamcha during their match, for no good reason at all. If I was going to be that generous with them, then I have no issue being generous enough with Vegeta to say "oh, well that was technically Nappa and the one Saibaiman who killed our friends, if you really think about it". And no, "but Vegeta was a mass murderer!" doesn't change my feelings, because that suggests that a regular murderer would be just fine. No thank you!

Regardless, why draw the line as late as these martial enemies turned rivals turned friends? They're not the only questionable figures that were kept around. Lunch is a generic criminal, robbing banks and shooting at people, thinking about hijacking planes and shit. Meanwhile, Roshi's over here habitually committing sexual assault, but they keep associating with him, too! Oolong as well.

If we're really being real and thinking of who we personally would accept into our social circle, then yeah, it was ridiculous that they accepted Vegeta into their little group. I certainly wouldn't be associating with that dude after the Saiyan and Namek arcs. But, y'know, I also wouldn't be keen on hanging out with Piccolo. Or Tenshinhan. Or Lunch. Or Oolong. Or Roshi. They've all done varying degrees of "shit that makes me not want to associate with you". They've all crossed my line.

But is it ridiculous that Goku and Bulma were fine with hanging out with him? I, uhhh, don't really think so. Not at all, honestly. Especially in retrospect, it's some pretty in-character stuff. Did Toriyama do a classic Bad Writing™ by writing a story such that them being fine with hanging out with Vegeta (or Piccolo, or Tenshinhan, or Lunch, or Roshi, or Oolong) is in-character? Also no, but I do think if you're going to draw that sort of line, Vegeta's a very arbitrary point to draw it at.

---

This is all a good point. These characters are all kinds of varying degrees of terrible people. Sexual predators, a women who would sleep with a Nazi for being hot if he wasn't gay, a thief who probably did kill a few people here and there, a would be assassin who maimed martial artist, and a former mazoku who briefly took over the earth and announced he was gonna blow up a district every year for shits and giggles (and yes it is the same Piccolo even if being reborn made him less evil) . At a certain point you realize you're watching/reading Kung fu Always Sunny in Philadelphia

Genocidal warlord is pretty high up on the amoral scale but they're all pretty bad people. Besides Vegeta seemed like he had been pretty chill in the year between Namek and Mecha Freeza just chilling at the Capsule Corp Compound (in the manga when he never left to look for Goku) threatening to kill Bulma seemed more like him being a drama queen. She pretty much dropped the idea out of respect for Goku when he reasoned "Gero hadn't done anything wrong yet" t

. I am eagerly waiting on people to take it to the logical end and turn on the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai's climax and resolution next.

If it weren't for the whole "If Piccolo dies, God dies too!" fans probably would have.
[/quote]

So there’s a few key differentiations being lost, and maybe that’s my fault for not emphasizing it enough. I like Vegeta as a character, its hard to imagine the series without him. I don’t think it’s inherently a bad idea for the show to try and incorporate a mass murderer into the main cast. Vegeta’s place on the dragon team actually works when you consider him to be a representation of the saiyan race, and his clash with Goku works well as a way to sort of articulate what makes Goku special in comparison to the saiyan ideal.

My problem is solely with execution, the series does a poor job at incorporating him when in past instances it did excellent job of incorporating antagonists.

We actually got to see Piccolo develop compassion through lens of Gohan, we saw that relationship form, develop and reach it ultimate pinnacle when Piccolo lays his life down to protect the son of his most hated enemy. So when piccolo joins the team (After literally having to through rebirth and then a merging with Nail) you as an audience member come to accept it as well.

The same exact argument can be made for Tien, we saw his internal conflict, we saw that he was a misguided young martial artist, we saw his development through the influence of Roshi and we saw Roshi recognize quickly that Tien wasn’t truly evil like the other members of the crane school. In the very next arc, we see him battle against Daimo and be willing to sacrifice his life.

Its not necessarily a matter of applying real world morality to DB and I would argue that the series tends to make it clear what is meant to be taken seriously and what is not. So if someone we’re to morally judge a character like Roshi or Lunch then I would obviously say that its a gag, and that your not really supposed to think about it beyond that. So the idea that if you’re ok with a character like Lunch then you need to be ok with a character like Vegeta just doesn’t really follow for me personally.

If you want an example of Vegeta incorporated properly, its the Namek arc. The characters still treat him like the threat that he is and they still scheme against him whenever they get the chance. Toriyama managed to write it convincingly to the point where you could accept the alliance without having to suspend your disbelief, and his place in the story is 100% organic and compelling.

Which is why Vegeta’s death in the namek arc is far more impactful for me compared to his death in the Buu saga

[AliTheZombie13]

I want to ask something for those of you who think Vegeta's inclusion makes perfect and total sense: If it wasn't Vegeta who this was happening to, but rather, it was any other villain, like say, Freeza. Imagine for a moment that, for whatever reason, Freeza was teleported to Earth instead of Vegeta.

The same arguments I see in this thread apply here:
- They can't do anything about Freeza because he's the strongest there.
- Pretend for a moment King Cold doesn't exist, Freeza had most of his elite army annihilated during Namek, he has nowhere to go.
- Freeza suddenly becomes "good" and decides to "help" them by telling them to wish Goku home because, "I'm the only one allowed to defeat him" or whatever.
- Suddenly, Bulma is flirting with him and inviting him to barbecue.
- The Namekians are A-OK living in the same space with the guy who committed genocide against them moments ago.
- Freeza gives up all motivation to find the Dragon Balls and wish for immortality.
- Nobody from the Dragon Team says anything about Freeza, ever. And Freeza continues to be evil and do as he pleases.
- Bonus: Freeza falls in love with Bulma and Yamcha is suddenly revealed to be a cheater mere chapters later.

Now, apply that same logic to literally any other villain and you see how little this makes any sense.
Yes, the Dragon Team is composed of former villains and antagonists, but I figure even they would have a problem allying themselves with the Hitler of Dragon Ball's universe.

[Majin Buu]

Gonna address this more specifically after reading through the thread: This complaint is going in my "Stuff I never personally had a problem with but other fans think is irredeemably awful" file with "Gohan's role in the Buu arc" because I have the same viewpoint on this as I do on that:

Could it have been written better? Sure. I get the complaint.

Do I care that it wasn't? Not really.

Vegeta is still an asshole at the start of the Cell arc and the story doesn't shy away from that. I don't think you're supposed to view him as a changed man at that point.

It may not be much of a defense, but him joining the Dragon Team feels like one of those "it just kind of happened" things- Like a lot of stuff in life. It was a situation no one in-universe really saw coming, it was simply a consequence of recent (and future) events.

[MasenkoHA]

Gonna address this more specifically after reading through the thread: This complaint is going in my "Stuff I never personally had a problem with but other fans think is irredeemably awful" file with "Gohan's role in the Buu arc" because I have the same viewpoint on this as I do on that:

Could it have been written better? Sure. I get the complaint.

Do I care that it wasn't? Not really.

Vegeta is still an asshole at the start of the Cell arc and the story doesn't shy away from that. I don't think you're supposed to view him as a changed man at that point.

It may not be much of a defense, but him joining the Dragon Team feels like one of those "it just kind of happened" things- Like a lot of stuff in life. It was a situation no one in-universe really saw coming, it was simply a consequence of recent (and future) events.

It's just hard to care because we know why Vegeta was kept around 1. He was popular (and presumably Yu Kondō pushed Toriyama to keep him as a regular because he knew a damaged bad boy would be popular with female readers) 2. He's useful for when Toriyama needs to move the plot in a way that requires a character to act myopic. Can't really see Son Goku or Tenshinhan or Piccolo allowing Cell to absorb 18.

You can make the argument "well then he should have done a different story then" but I enjoyed evil cyborgs from the future, evil artificial.bug man devours cyborgs to become more powerful and fat magical genie terrorizes world and turns people into candy enough to allow for these contrivances to take place.

To use an example from a different work it's absolutely asinine for Batman to not kill the Joker. People can use whatever "Batman's moral code means he can't cross the line" argument they want yeah no it doesn't work that way. Batman absolutely should have killed the Joker by now but he's not because the character is too iconic to get rid of.

Am I going to not enjoy some great Joker stories just because it makes no sense for Batman to hand him over to the authorities that will prove to be too incompetent to keep him locked up?

Absolutely not

[Koitsukai]

I don't know what people want from these characters anymore. I can understand wanting them to be more practical and proactive, but I'm reading stuff more aligned to "they should seek and fucking kill everybody that ever harmed them or others no matter what they are doing now, no matter at what price".
This is not a gang that thrives on revenge nor delivers comeuppance door to door. They don't pick up fights if they don't have to.

This is a cast that, probably for the wrong reasons and at the wrong times, believes in forgiveness, and they eventually are proven right. Geets took a long time (and fuck ups) but he ended up proving his worth in the end. It's not like we are discussing a character that in the end chose to assist Cell instead of Gohan. An asshole worthwhile leaving alone if he's leaving you alone as well.

[ABED]

I can suspend my disbelief more with Vegeta joining the team than Freeza bc they have two fundamentally different motivations. Freeza wants power and wealth. Martial arts are a means to an end. He likes being the emperor and the trappings that come with it. Vegeta is a warrior through and through. At one point he might have wanted Freeza's spot but I don't think it was about being the dictator. He wants to be the best and will go about it any way that will get him there. Once Freeza is out of the way, and Goku is now the strongest, the only way to satisfy his urge to be the best is to defeat Goku. Why would he smash up the Earth and kill people like he did when we first met him? He doesn't have the same goal.

I can understand wanting them to be more practical and proactive

Not everyone is practical and proactive, so why should fictional characters? That said, their aim with the cyborgs is to fight them. It would be counterproductive to stop Dr. Gero.

[Zephyr]

Characters often, like real people, also have multiple simultaneous motivations. In the case of the cast not trying to stop Gero from building those dudes, they want two things: to have a livable home still, and also to have a good fight. You could stop Gero in advance and secure the first, but you'd miss out on the second. They want to have both, and to that end they're going to push themselves hard training so that they can fight them and win, satisfying both goals. If they weren't at all proactive or practical, they'd have simply slacked for those three years.

By Super, I feel Freeza also has two goals: yeah he wants to rule and all that, but he also wants to get back at Goku. Killing him isn't enough, else he'd just blow the planet up at the earliest convenience; much like Piccolo, and arguably Gero, he wants to beat Goku at his own game. So he trains to get stronger, so that he can fight Goku. In this way, you can trust he's not the same danger he was before (not to say he's no longer dangerous). Man who comes by and sticks around for the express purpose of fighting Goku is getting awfully close to post-Namek Vegeta, if not there.

That's another big feature of Dragon Ball. Goku humiliates evil dudes in martial combat. Evil dudes, driven by spite, put their other, more clearly-evil, goals aside in order to get stronger so they can get back at Goku by humiliating him in martial combat. In this way, they also inadvertently grow as people. It's one of the ways that Goku changes the people around him for the better, even if he's arguably becoming worse himself. Dude is infectious, and I don't think he's even trying to be. That it happens to increasingly worse people is, frankly, both endearing and funny to me.

[jjgp1112]

"Grand Elder, we can't locate an entire village of Namekians."
"Oh, that must be the village that I wiped out, mwahahahahahahahaha!"

You know, when Piccolo wants to make terrible bone-headed decisions that put their entire mission in jeopardy like wishing himself to Namek because he wants to avenge his people, Piccolo makes them. But when someone is bragging in his face that he killed his people unprovoked, Piccolo's reaction is to do nothing. Interesting.

These are words, not actions, and Vegeta was several degrees stronger than Piccolo, so it goes back to what we were already saying: Nobody was in any position to do anything about him.

His motivation was to get himself immortal so he could enjoy fighting forever, by his own word.
Freeza was just a by-product of that.

We are well aware that many things about Vegeta's presentation, status, and motivation was retconned when Frieza was introduced. He and Nappa were presented as operating independently, and then it turns out their under Frieza's thumb - and it's here when Vegeta's motivation for immortality plainly changes from "I want to fight forever!" to "I need leverage on Frieza!" By the time the ordeal with Frieza is over, he's only interested in Kakarot and becoming a Super Saiyan. The very first thing he does after they find out Goku might not be able to get wished back by the very things he was pursuing in the first place was suggest an easier way to do it rather than say, hijacking the wish to get immortality. Hell, he was THERE when they made the wishes and let it happen! He very clearly had no interest in that shit anymore so again - no motive to drive him into action against them, no reason to be scared unless they provoke his temper.

"I destroyed countless planets and killed lots of people for no reason lols"
- Vegeta, any given time in Dragon Ball Z, including in the scene above.

In fact, during the Cell Saga, Vegeta plainly states to Trunks that killing someone for merely upsetting you or because you don't like them is prime Saiyan culture. By that logic, he should've killed Bulma the moment she made that proposal.

Read what I said again. Vegeta's a psycho, but he demonstrates throughout the show that he has self-control and isn't going to kill people unless he has a motive or is sufficiently pissed off. Again, that's why I said their best option was treating him like a grizzly bear in the woods - he's here, he's minding his business but is potentially dangerous, don't provoke him and things will be fine. And that's what happened.

I don't buy for a second Vegeta staying on Earth, it goes against his character, and it goes against everybody else's character to just accept him without justification.

We see a clear reason why he's staying on Earth - he learns that Goku is a Super Saiyan, and now wants to achieve the transformation himself and defeat him. And the very resources Goku used to get so much stronger are not only right there on Earth, the damn lady that created them just invited him to live with her!

Like I said, you guys are operating under the assumption that Vegeta is a cartoon supervillain that just wants to blow shit up whenever feels like it like Buu (And Toei assumed this too, hence the filler that they immediately had to walk back like it never happened) when in reality he's just your garden variety horrible person that can still function among regular people. The quote you cited doesn't change that either - it just means that he doesn't value anybody's life, not necessarily that he'll kill for the lolz. Hell, Piccolo was actually a much more active hazard in the 5 years preceding Raditz's arrival since he had motives beyond just beating Goku, and even he had the restraint to behave himself.

[tonysoprano300]

I don't know what people want from these characters anymore. I can understand wanting them to be more practical and proactive, but I'm reading stuff more aligned to "they should seek and fucking kill everybody that ever harmed them or others no matter what they are doing now, no matter at what price".
This is not a gang that thrives on revenge nor delivers comeuppance door to door. They don't pick up fights if they don't have to.

This is a cast that, probably for the wrong reasons and at the wrong times, believes in forgiveness, and they eventually are proven right. Geets took a long time (and fuck ups) but he ended up proving his worth in the end. It's not like we are discussing a character that in the end chose to assist Cell instead of Gohan. An asshole worthwhile leaving alone if he's leaving you alone as well.

Genuine question, how did Vegeta prove his worth?

Imagine a scenario where someone vandalizes your car, then later they come back and help you repair it.

Would you say that you gained something from that ordeal? If the only time Vegeta really helps is after he fucks things up tremendously, then is the Dragon team gaining something from him?


I get people love Vegeta(I like him too) but thats a crazy standard to hold him too

[Koitsukai]

Genuine question, how did Vegeta prove his worth?

Imagine a scenario where someone vandalizes your car, then later they come back and help you repair it.

Would you say that you gained something from that ordeal? If the only time Vegeta really helps is after he fucks things up tremendously, then is the Dragon team gaining something from him?


I get people love Vegeta(I like him too) but thats a crazy standard to hold him too

Well, in the context that I needed my car to take my mom to the ER. He fucked it up, yes, but then was key in making it work and my momma made it to the hospital in time, with some bumps on the road, sure. His worth being the best mechanic available at that time.
My answer sounds like a body shop scam, lol, but I think the point stands. He's a dick but when he has to he turns up and delivers beyond what others can do.

I actually never liked him.

[AliTheZombie13]

Gonna address this more specifically after reading through the thread: This complaint is going in my "Stuff I never personally had a problem with but other fans think is irredeemably awful" file with "Gohan's role in the Buu arc" because I have the same viewpoint on this as I do on that:

Could it have been written better? Sure. I get the complaint.

Do I care that it wasn't? Not really.

Vegeta is still an asshole at the start of the Cell arc and the story doesn't shy away from that. I don't think you're supposed to view him as a changed man at that point.

It may not be much of a defense, but him joining the Dragon Team feels like one of those "it just kind of happened" things- Like a lot of stuff in life. It was a situation no one in-universe really saw coming, it was simply a consequence of recent (and future) events.

I guess this sums up the point here very well.
Vegeta allying himself with the team despite being a complete asshole and very much still evil is a good idea, Namek itself does a good job on it. But, as many people who hate the guts out of GT love to say: "Good idea, bad execution, I hate it."

Nobody's saying "Go there and kill Vegeta, for he has committed many sins and we hate evil characters!" What we're saying is, "This part of the story should've been written better."

The Dragon Team shouldn't have accepted Vegeta so openly. Again, if after Raditz was defeated, Bulma invited Piccolo to her home, flirted with him and he resigned himself to a life of peace, people would be complaining about that just as much.

But what Toriyama did with Piccolo works: He's still evil, the Dragon Team is scared shit of him and don't trust him 100%, he kidnaps Gohan still fully intent on world domination, the Dragon Team can't do anything about him because he's stronger than all of them combined, he then flies off somewhere to do his own thing. It's only after he proves he changed that the others start accepting him.

Piccolo's redemption from a storytelling standpoint makes sense, Vegeta's doesn't. Simple as that.