Does anyone else think that Vegeta joining the Dragon team was ridiculous in retrospect?

[jjgp1112]

How does he need Vegeta there? Not plot reasons

Um... Trunks?

Literally like someone said already in the thread, he needed "a Vegeta son". And how many women were there in the team to fulfill that role?

In some fairness, Vegeta&Bulma never got together during that time frame. It was during the 3 year time skip. If I were to guess, it was drawn to suggest that Vegeta did accept Bulma’s offer reluctantly. Why? No clue. That’s never explained beyond Bulma suggesting that she would have enough food to feed his ridiculous saiyan appetite.

Its still a nonsensical panel, it would be like Piccolo Jr living at Kame house during the 5 year window between the 23rd World Martial Arts tournament and the arrival of Radditz.

I think part of it is also Toriyama's comedic sensibilities coming into play - that Vegeta of all people is offered a place to stay and made immensely uncomfortable, and then the next time we see him later in the chapter he's wearing casual clothes in a barbecue with his former enemies while otherwise acting like his normal self is...pretty fucking funny. A single panel tells a thousand words. And then when it's revealed the next chapter that the shirt says "BADMAN" on the back? *chef's kiss*

That's actually funnier than Toei's take on it where we see him putting it on with no choice and feeling humiliated. The idea that maybe he just saw the shirt, saw "BADMAN" on the back and was like "Fuck yeah." Or specifically asked someone to stitch it on there just so it's clear everyone knows where he still stands? What a [potentially] fucking dork.

Sometimes omitting details actually helps, especially when you're making absurd leaps. Leave the viewer to wonder how in the fuck we got here.

[AliTheZombie13]

I know what kind of story Dragon Ball is, it's why I don't consider how real-life psychopaths behave when judging Vegeta's actions and the Dragon Team's reactions to his actions. Still, I require the slightest bit of logic while consuming a story, even if it was meant for dumb little kids to consume. Bulma going from hating Vegeta's guts to loving him immediately after leaving Namek makes zero sense. My suspension of disbelief ain't that strong to excuse it.

[jjgp1112]

I know what kind of story Dragon Ball is, it's why I don't consider how real-life psychopaths behave when judging Vegeta's actions and the Dragon Team's reactions to his actions.

It's not a massive overreach to suggest that a villain will act normal in between goals. I'm bringing up the real life stuff precisely to show how normal it is for even the worst people to mind their business and not be at 100 all the time. And the fact that it is the option Vegeta takes means it's something we can add to the overall picture of his personality. Shit, we already saw Piccolo do it, so it's not even brand new behavior from Dragon Ball villains. Understanding real life makes it easier to grasp characters not being one note.

Just because it's a dumb kid's story doesn't mean there's no room for characters to act like regular people.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I am losing track of who is using irl logic and psychology and who isnt. Obviously Ali is against Vegeta and everyone else sans some sympathy for Ali are against.

[AliTheZombie13]

I am losing track of who is using irl logic and psychology and who isnt. Obviously Ali is against Vegeta and everyone else sans some sympathy for Ali are against.

Honestly, I'm not against Vegeta, I'm against the way his redemption arc is executed.
Vegeta going from murderous space genocider -> good husband and family man by all means should be an interesting character development story.

But Toriyama doesn't bother nor cares about making it happen. We're just told Vegeta became tame and good off-screen in the span of a few years, we're not shown it happening, and that's a very critical writing mistake.

What we are shown, however, is Vegeta doing heinous acts that hinders the team more than it helps and everyone putting up with it because "He's a good person worth saving deep down." Goku once threatened to kill God himself because he believed in that notion.

But me, the audience, isn't Goku. I'm not shown Vegeta being a good reliable team member, or a good person worth saving, I am shown him being an evil liability, which puts me at odds when Toriyama tries to force down my throat that Vegeta is actually a good man who deserves sympathy from the cast.

[Koitsukai]

If real-life can't be used to explain character, their actions and motivations, then why is this an issue? it's not like fantasy worlds are less lenient, if we are not bound to reality then anything goes, no big deal then.
Ted Bundy became a father while in death row. Real life has seen shit like Bulma blowing evil people who have harmed them personally already, why fantasy worlds cannot do similarly? and it was just sport fuck ffs, the love part came after Cell was killed.

Or can't she just be acting like a fucking cunt to Yamcha, for whatever personal issues they had, but it got a little out of hand? Toriyama clearly didn't know nor cared how to tell it. This isn't the type of story to dwell on such intimate things, she got a little too close to the sun and got burned, now let's move on, robots are coming and Goku is ready to fight them.

[jjgp1112]

What we are shown, however, is Vegeta doing heinous acts that hinders the team more than it helps and everyone putting up with it because "He's a good person worth saving deep down." Goku once threatened to kill God himself because he believed in that notion.

But me, the audience, isn't Goku. I'm not shown Vegeta being a good reliable team member, or a good person worth saving, I am shown him being an evil liability, which puts me at odds when Toriyama tries to force down my throat that Vegeta is actually a good man who deserves sympathy from the cast.

Where are you getting this from? Krillin straight up says that Vegeta is not that kind of guy, and Goku even agrees. He doesn't threaten Supreme Kai because he thinks Vegeta's good deep down, what the hell? It's literally the opposite. Supreme Kai's dumbass thinks he can get Vegeta back on board by just saying "C'mon guys, teamwork on 3! Let's stop Buu!" while Goku knows the only way Vegeta's gonna shut the fuck up and stop ruining everything is if he fights him and puts him down - and then he actually thinks he can play the "You're gonna have to through me!" card when Goku is not in the mood for that bullshit.

Trunks and Bulma are the only people with an actual positive opinion of Vegeta, and Goku and Gohan are neutral.

[AliTheZombie13]

Trunks and Bulma are the only people with an actual positive opinion of Vegeta, and Goku and Gohan are neutral.

Where did you get this from?
The story very explicitly frames both Goku and Gohan being shocked, disappointed and outraged with Vegeta's actions, unable to believe he actually had an evil heart to begin with.



The actual story of Dragon Ball isn't TFS. Goku here is very clearly in disbelief that Vegeta has become evil.

[jjgp1112]

Trunks and Bulma are the only people with an actual positive opinion of Vegeta, and Goku and Gohan are neutral.

Where did you get this from?
The story very explicitly frames both Goku and Gohan being shocked, disappointed and outraged with Vegeta's actions, unable to believe he actually had an evil heart to begin with.



The actual story of Dragon Ball isn't TFS. Goku here is very clearly in disbelief that Vegeta has become evil.

That's what YOU are somehow getting out of this.

The fact that Vegeta has seemingly at the very least come to make some steps at becoming a better person by trying to avenge Trunks, helping out with Cell, and spending 7 years stably being a dad and husband means that he's evidently not the villain he once was. Gohan's spent the last 7 years seeing Vegeta not as the guy trying to kill him on Namek, but as the grumpy, moderately depressed dude lumbering about at Capsule Corp in sweatpants.

So um, YEAH, of course they are gonna be shocked when he relapses, the same way a circle of friends gets shocked and disgusted when the guy who was 7 years sober is pawning off his son's watch for that sweet, sweet crack pipe again. They didn't "forget" he was evil, they just thought he had put that behind him. Shit, that's the entire reason Vegeta even surrenders to Babidi to begin with. Because even he thinks he's lost his way and become a Family Guy.

Vegeta being capable of evil isn't a shock - it's the fact that he would throw away the progress he made from being evil for the sake of his grudge.

[AliTheZombie13]

... I never really thought somebody would interpret this scene any other way, but here we are apparently.



Vegeta: "I WANTED TO BE EVIL AGAIN!!!!"
Goku: "...No you don't. You're a good guy, deep down."

Like... There's no other way to read that scene.

[jjgp1112]

... I never really thought somebody would interpret this scene any other way, but here we are apparently.



Vegeta: "I WANTED TO BE EVIL AGAIN!!!!"
Goku: "...No you don't. You're a good guy, deep down."

Like... There's no other way to read that scene.

But that's the thing - nobody considers Vegeta to be a possibly good guy deep down until after the Cell games, where he actually does things to suggest this. You keep saying people always looked at him like this and that's why they tolerate him, or even went as far as saying they forgot what he used to be when he joins Babidi. People are shocked because they think he's changed in the last 7 years, not because they "forgot" what he's capable of.

[AliTheZombie13]

Now you're the one moving goalposts, because you said this just a while ago:

He doesn't threaten Supreme Kai because he thinks Vegeta's good deep down, what the hell? It's literally the opposite.
[...]
Trunks and Bulma are the only people with an actual positive opinion of Vegeta, and Goku and Gohan are neutral.

Which is clearly false given everything Goku and Gohan say about him during that segment.
Anyways, let's get back to my original point here:

What the story is TELLING US via the cast is that Vegeta deep down is a good person. But we, the audience, DON'T SEE THAT, but we DO SEE Vegeta not being a good person. And I'm not sure how else to tell you that this is, quite literally, BaD WriTinG.

"Show, don't tell!"

[tonysoprano300]

Um... Trunks?

Literally like someone said already in the thread, he needed "a Vegeta son". And how many women were there in the team to fulfill that role?

In some fairness, Vegeta&Bulma never got together during that time frame. It was during the 3 year time skip. If I were to guess, it was drawn to suggest that Vegeta did accept Bulma’s offer reluctantly. Why? No clue. That’s never explained beyond Bulma suggesting that she would have enough food to feed his ridiculous saiyan appetite.

Its still a nonsensical panel, it would be like Piccolo Jr living at Kame house during the 5 year window between the 23rd World Martial Arts tournament and the arrival of Radditz.

I think part of it is also Toriyama's comedic sensibilities coming into play - that Vegeta of all people is offered a place to stay and made immensely uncomfortable, and then the next time we see him later in the chapter he's wearing casual clothes in a barbecue with his former enemies while otherwise acting like his normal self is...pretty fucking funny. A single panel tells a thousand words. And then when it's revealed the next chapter that the shirt says "BADMAN" on the back? *chef's kiss*

That's actually funnier than Toei's take on it where we see him putting it on with no choice and feeling humiliated. The idea that maybe he just saw the shirt, saw "BADMAN" on the back and was like "Fuck yeah." Or specifically asked someone to stitch it on there just so it's clear everyone knows where he still stands? What a [potentially] fucking dork.

Sometimes omitting details actually helps, especially when you're making absurd leaps. Leave the viewer to wonder how in the fuck we got here.

If you read it as a gag then it is funny, and if it is a gag then by definition its silly and nonsensical.

I definitely agree that allowing audiences to figure stuff out from time to time is important, not everything needs to be spoon-fed to you. This is a bit of an extreme application of that sentiment imo

[Cure Dragon 255]

This isnt to support ANYONE from either side but I want to share this iconic Vegeta moment from the Cell Saga:


No wait, nevermind, I cant find the moment in Japanese but it's the one where he say "My heart is pure... PURE EVIL." I can share the Latin American dub if you want me to.

[Saiya6Cit]

I'm sorry to whoever get taken aback by my comment, but there's way too much overthinking going on. Vegeta did a bunch of bad things, but he was a cool villain and did even cooler things during the Namek arc, so he became a member of the team to keep his character around. There's obviously something to it--you ever seen all the people that like Vegeta even more than Goku?

Dragpn Ball isn't some kind of literary masterpiece--it's a comic book/cartoon for teenagers. Maybe now, everyone can look back in retelling and pick apart all the things that make Dragon Ball so "bad," but back when it was actually being released, I assure you that nobody was clutching their chest at Vegeta joining the team.

Some adult point of view.

Once the concept of saiyans was introduced, people fell inlove with them and could simply not let go, also they wanted more so... we not only got to keep vegeta but we also got Trunks.

Yamcha had over 10 years to put a baby on Bulma and he did not. If someone more efficient on the matter arrives, so be it. Real life is exactly like that. Vegeta was never redeemed as previous goku's ememies. He was not a villain either, he was part of Freezer's army. He had discovered zenkai power and his plan was to become stronger and stronger each time until the point he could fight Freezer and overthrone him. He then remembered that Radditz had a brother and he thought: more saiyans more chances to win, so he ordered Radditz to go get him. We know what happened instead but the point is he listened trhoug the scouter and found out about the dragon balls, then the plan was to become immortal and fight freezer. Bulma invited him to stay at her place and he saw the convenience of having a shelter and being the first one to find out when Goku would come back. Then he got closer to Bulma and stayed to raise his children: RESPECT.

DB is very different from DBZ. More influence from comic books is found in the latest. Goku not wanting to kill the only other pure saiyan alive makes a lot of sense. It is a superman-zod situation. No. It is not a ridiculous idea, because creating and keeping Vegeta was one of the greatest ideas for the franchise ever. Vegeta has many fans worldwide and keeps the franchise current. It is a great character who has evolved a lot.

[Zephyr]

I'm not sure that these pages (plus those surrounding and connecting them) are really being done interpretive justice here.

Where did you get this from?
The story very explicitly frames both Goku and Gohan being shocked, disappointed and outraged with Vegeta's actions, unable to believe he actually had an evil heart to begin with.



The actual story of Dragon Ball isn't TFS. Goku here is very clearly in disbelief that Vegeta has become evil.

What's being framed on this page you have posted is actually Goku being surprised that Vegeta allowed himself to get possessed. 4 pages later, Goku surmises that Vegeta did this to goad him into a fight, and Vegeta confirms this, thinking it his only chance.

The next chapter begins with Bobbidi telling Vegeta to kill the Kaioshin, but Vegeta reiterates that fighting Goku is all he cares about.

The next chapter cuts to Goku and Vegeta talking about training and strength. Vegeta says that Goku is more gifted than him, and the only way to make up the difference was to get a boost of strength from Bobbidi. He also says he hates what he had to stoop to. When Goku asks if he really let himself fall under someone's control just for strength, Vegeta pauses, and then we get to this page:

... I never really thought somebody would interpret this scene any other way, but here we are apparently.



Vegeta: "I WANTED TO BE EVIL AGAIN!!!!"
Goku: "...No you don't. You're a good guy, deep down."

Like... There's no other way to read that scene.

Vegeta's stammering here, before screaming about how being evil again would help him be strong. He says that thanks to Bobbidi, he feels strong again. And Goku basically says "sure, Jan".

Goku isn't questioning that Vegeta just did some evil shit. I don't think he's questioning that there's evil in Vegeta's heart (on account of there has to be in order to Bobbidi to possess someone in the first place). This reads like Goku is doubting that doing evil shit makes Vegeta feel strong.

What specific and binary moral thing Vegeta most truly is "deep down" isn't the topic of conversation on the page. Further, whatever Vegeta is "deep down" doesn't have much bearing on Goku and Gohan not hating Vegeta's guts the way Tenshinhan does, while also not thinking of him the way his nuclear family does. Pretty sure that's what jjgp1112 meant by them being "neutral" on him.

[AliTheZombie13]

The topic of this conversation is whether Vegeta joining the Dragon Team felt earned or not.
Admittedly, I have problems expressing my arguments, won't dwell too much about that, but I think I've given my points about this subject enough:

- I do think it was completely ridiculous for them to go from hating Vegeta and wanting him dead, to ranging from being positive about him (Bulma, Gohan) to even tolerating his presence to begin with (Yamcha, Piccolo, and all other characters, especially those who were killed by him) in such a short amount of time. I'm not talking about the time-skip bullshit, I'm talking about their reactions immediately after Namek was done with. During that portion of the story, Vegeta shouldn't have been treated so lightly.

- I do think that the Dragon Team reaches parody levels of acceptance of Vegeta once the Boo Saga rolls around. Goku, Gohan and Bulma all expressing shock and disbelief that Vegeta would go and do the things he has done in the Boo Saga, despite the series having done practically nothing to convince us that he is anything but a mass-murdering man-baby is absurd. Hearing Goku, Gohan and Bulma all go "Hey, Vegeta. Don't tell me you're *GASP* evil!!!!" made me feel like I was watching TFS' "best buddy" jokes become canon. And no, before somebody tries to go "Well, he proven he had behaved in the time-skip." ... Show, don't tell!

- At the end of the day, Vegeta's redemption arc was a good idea that was executed badly. I didn't get enough material on-screen with Vegeta proving his worth, let alone being on positive terms with the Dragon Team to justify his inclusion at any point of the original manga's run. In fact, I'll bite the hornets' nest here and say that DBS does a better job at redeeming Vegeta than Toriyama ever did.

[tonysoprano300]

In fact, I'll bite the hornets' nest here and say that DBS does a better job at redeeming Vegeta than Toriyama ever did.

Moro arc Vegeta specifically sure, although that isn’t so much of a redemption as more of an indication that Vegeta has actually changed and is somewhat burdened morally by his past. I liked the idea of it more than the execution but at I was able to take that storyline seriously given that it was in the context of Vegeta being a morally upstanding character who has changed.

I think my issue overall with DBS Vegeta is that he’s still focused on his rivalry with Goku and still harbours some resentment towards Goku. It sort of undermines the supposed redemption he had in the Buu arc that was fundamentally about accepting that his obsession with Goku was holding him back.

People may have their grievances with his usage but , GT Vegeta is a near perfect depiction of him post Buu saga.

[super michael]

I think everyone acting like Vegeta did nothing wrong is bad, they forgave him 100%. Basically Vegeta got unlimited chance and he didn't need to prove to anyone that he changed.

When Vegeta attacked Future Trunks to protect Cell, they shouldn't have ignored his action.
When Vegeta killed thousands and wanted to kill more, they shouldn't have ignored that. Then Vegeta destroyed the Potara and refused to fuse.

[AliTheZombie13]

Moro arc Vegeta specifically sure, although that isn’t so much of a redemption as more of an indication that Vegeta has actually changed and is somewhat burdened morally by his past. I liked the idea of it more than the execution but at I was able to take that storyline seriously given that it was in the context of Vegeta being a morally upstanding character who has changed.

I think my issue overall with DBS Vegeta is that he’s still focused on his rivalry with Goku and still harbours some resentment towards Goku. It sort of undermines the supposed redemption he had in the Buu arc that was fundamentally about accepting that his obsession with Goku was holding him back.

People may have their grievances with his usage but , GT Vegeta is a near perfect depiction of him post Buu saga.

I meant that more in the sense of, DBS Vegeta is shown being a good asset and person. We don't need to go by the story's words that, "Oh hey, Vegeta behaved himself for like 10 years. That counts, right?" DBS also doesn't make the story revert Vegeta back to doing something evil and shocking to add pointless conflict to it. Which makes him look more like a liability and makes me think, "Why the hell do you guys still have him around?"