Dragon Ball Daima trailer, October release date announced

[AliTheZombie13]

The eternal struggle that people like you and me face with Dragon Ball lol

Kind of related to this discussion. Remember when, in the Red Ribbon Army saga, a reader sent Toriyama a letter about how they were discontent with the show becoming "The Goku Show", and then Toriyama brought Bulma and Kuririn back?

Now, imagine if someone back then said in response "Oh, who cares? Goku is the main protagonist."
Of course, we can't change the past, but constructive criticism is important to improve ourselves in the future.

[JulieYBM]

The eternal struggle that people like you and me face with Dragon Ball lol

Kind of related to this discussion. Remember when, in the Red Ribbon Army saga, a reader sent Toriyama a letter about how they were discontent with the show becoming "The Goku Show", and then Toriyama brought Bulma and Kuririn back?

Now, imagine if someone back then said in response "Oh, who cares? Goku is the main protagonist."
Of course, we can't change the past, but constructive criticism is important to improve ourselves in the future.

Yeah, that's definitely what I wish there was more of. Part of why modern Dragon Ball suffers is that nobody wants to really challenge Toriyama as a writer, which is precisely what his editors' jobs were on the original 1984. A producer whose job is to cater to what will earn them the most money is not going to challenge the legendary comic writer who was only as much a legend as he became in large part because he was met with having to reconsider his ideas. Shit, some of my best writing came because I had my then-girlfriend to bounce ideas off of.

Something I fear about further future Dragon Ball is that nobody is going to let actual creator types create a good story first and foremost, they'll just want more of this so-called Toriyama flavor and playing it safe.

[MasenkoHA]

The eternal struggle that people like you and me face with Dragon Ball lol

Kind of related to this discussion. Remember when, in the Red Ribbon Army saga, a reader sent Toriyama a letter about how they were discontent with the show becoming "The Goku Show", and then Toriyama brought Bulma and Kuririn back?

Now, imagine if someone back then said in response "Oh, who cares? Goku is the main protagonist."
Of course, we can't change the past, but constructive criticism is important to improve ourselves in the future.

To that end, Krillin owes his entire existence to Toriyama or Torishima feeling Goku wasn't a strong enough character to carry the training arc solo and needed a foil to bounce off of.

That said I also don’t buy into "Goku has to come save the day and that makes the other characters useless". I agree with Abed's point that a characters worth isn't dependent on whether they beat the bad guy or not. Toriyama getting bored with his new toys was definitely a problem (hi Tenshinhan and Chaozu) but characters like Krillin and Piccolo managed to stay relevant until the Boo saga

[JulieYBM]

The eternal struggle that people like you and me face with Dragon Ball lol

Kind of related to this discussion. Remember when, in the Red Ribbon Army saga, a reader sent Toriyama a letter about how they were discontent with the show becoming "The Goku Show", and then Toriyama brought Bulma and Kuririn back?

Now, imagine if someone back then said in response "Oh, who cares? Goku is the main protagonist."
Of course, we can't change the past, but constructive criticism is important to improve ourselves in the future.

To that end, Krillin owes his entire existence to Toriyama or Torishima feeling Goku wasn't a strong enough character to carry the training arc solo and needed a foil to bounce off of.

That said I also don’t buy into "Goku has to come save the day and that makes the other characters useless". I agree with Abed's point that a characters worth isn't dependent on whether they beat the bad guy or not. Toriyama getting bored with his new toys was definitely a problem (hi Tenshinhan and Chaozu) but characters like Krillin and Piccolo managed to stay relevant until the Boo saga

I would argue that the 'uselessness' stems from the fact that they don't really get dedicated ends to their arcs. They sort of just slide off stage and get forgotten, which is the problem. #18 doesn't necessarily have to kill Cell, but it would be nice if it felt like she had an arc with a solid beginning, middle, and end.

Actually, scratch that: Aritificial Human #18 being the only one who could defeat Cell would have been way cooler than Gohan doing it. Literally being the only one who could kill the man who harmed her the most is metal as fuck.

[AliTheZombie13]

To that end, Krillin owes his entire existence to Toriyama or Torishima feeling Goku wasn't a strong enough character to carry the training arc solo and needed a foil to bounce off of.

That said I also don’t buy into "Goku has to come save the day and that makes the other characters useless". I agree with Abed's point that a characters worth isn't dependent on whether they beat the bad guy or not. Toriyama getting bored with his new toys was definitely a problem (hi Tenshinhan and Chaozu) but characters like Krillin and Piccolo managed to stay relevant until the Boo saga

Mind you, I never said this makes them worthless.
Yamcha's death in particular is very impactful and I love it.
What I don't love is the absolute wimpification Toriyama subjects his character merely to show off how an opponent is strong.
I especially don't love it when Goku has absolutely zero effort disposing of said opponent.

To paraphrase something MistareFusion once said about this crutch Toriyama often uses:
"You have this character, he's supposed to be a member of a bloodthirsty super-strong race. But then, you throw another character to beat him up. And you repeat that until he's no longer a member of a bloodthirsty super-strong race, he's just the guy who gets beaten up a lot."

Yamcha's death being impactful and moving doesn't nullify that Toriyama turning him into a joke to prove how much Goku is better is frustrating. The same can be said about any other character. I swear, if this happened in Z, y'all would be defending it:

[ABED]

The eternal struggle that people like you and me face with Dragon Ball lol

Kind of related to this discussion. Remember when, in the Red Ribbon Army saga, a reader sent Toriyama a letter about how they were discontent with the show becoming "The Goku Show", and then Toriyama brought Bulma and Kuririn back?

Now, imagine if someone back then said in response "Oh, who cares? Goku is the main protagonist."
Of course, we can't change the past, but constructive criticism is important to improve ourselves in the future.

To that end, Krillin owes his entire existence to Toriyama or Torishima feeling Goku wasn't a strong enough character to carry the training arc solo and needed a foil to bounce off of.

That said I also don’t buy into "Goku has to come save the day and that makes the other characters useless". I agree with Abed's point that a characters worth isn't dependent on whether they beat the bad guy or not. Toriyama getting bored with his new toys was definitely a problem (hi Tenshinhan and Chaozu) but characters like Krillin and Piccolo managed to stay relevant until the Boo saga

He did have a problem with giving some characters graceful exists. Some just exist to stand around and contribute nothing after their arcs are complete. Muten Roshi's arc is finished after the 22nd TB, but he still has value as the wise old martial arts master who can provide valuable commentary instead of having Goku or others explain it during their battles. He is the Col. Troutman to whoever's John Rambo. Even something like the weaker members of the Z Team helping out in any way they can against Cell was a wonderful character moment for them. They don't do anything plotwise but stories aren't just about plot. That alone justified their presence at the Cell Games.

Other shows prove you can do better than that... MUCH better than that.
Dragon Ball sucks at it, sorry.

Probably because they're ensembles, which DB is not.

[MasenkoHA]

I especially don't love it when Goku has absolutely zero effort disposing of said opponent.

Meh it's never applied to the big bad and usually is done to show how much stronger Goku has gotten from his training/recent power up and also shows just how much stronger the big bad actually is.

It would be weird if Goku struggled against Drum and still somehow beat Piccolo Daimao. Drum being stronger than Tenshinhan is useful in letting us know Drum is really strong since Tenshinhan was Goku's equal at the 22nd Tenkaichi Tournament. Goku defeating him with ease shows just how much stronger Goku is now. The main title fight is still Goku vs. Piccolo, where the actual struggle takes place.

Yamcha's death being impactful and moving doesn't nullify that Toriyama turning him into a joke to prove how much Goku is better is frustrating.

Here's the thing, Toriyama didn't turn Yamucha into a joke, at least not in the original story. The fandom treated him as such and Shueisha, Toei, Bandai, Toriyama, whoever caught on and and played into in Super


Yamucha's lot in life "being the guy who loses in the quarter finals to the guy Goku will fight in the finals" in the 21st and 22nd Tenkaichi Tournaments isn't made to make Yamucha looked bad and Goku good but to show how strong Goku's endgame opponent is.

Yamucha getting kamikazed by a saibaman also doesn't reduced Yamucha into a joke. We're told each one is equal to Raditz, a guy Goku and Piccolo could barely beat at the beginning of the arc, the fact that Yamucha could beat one shows just how much stronger the Z warriors have become since their training in the Upper Realm. The Saibaman taking Yamucha out with a suicide attack shows the bad guys aren't fucking around.

I'm not even sure what would have made it better for you? Piccolo and the others need to die to give the surviving heroes a reason to go to Namek.

I swear, if this happened in Z, y'all would be defending it:

I was also personally unbothered by it. *shrug* Fans get way into this idea that Gohan was supposed to be the strongest, bestest fighter ever when it's obvious the whole "Gohan is super strong at the age of 4 because Saiyan/Earthling hybrids are uber powerful for reasons" was just an explanation for why Goku's toddler could fight alongside Goku and his friends instead of just drinking his chocolate milk at home with Chi Chi. By Toriyama's own admission Gohan was never created to be the main character and was more meant to be a foil to Goku (jock dad, nerd son)

Gohan super dork dad is way more interesting than Gohan "The New Goku"

[Cure Dragon 255]

I dont wanna be mean or gate keepy or anything, but there is so much you dont like on Dragon Ball I keep forgetting which parts you actually like, I've never seen praise, just X thing about Dragon Ball REALLY pisses me off or I cant stand it, but things, quirks, tropes, arcs and arquetypes you constantly criticize are very intrinsic in Dragon Ball. There is no part of Dragon Ball that is fully divorced from the things you hate about DB so I need to ask: What is it that you are like about dragon ball, the franchise itself?

- Most of the original DB, the Saiyan Saga, the first half of Namek, parts of the Boo Saga, and most of GT.
- Art direction and music.

Still, just because I like something, it doesn't mean I won't go, "Well, they sucked doing this, I hope they do it better next time."

But in other threads you made a big song and dance about how much you HATED those because they were nothing but "Waiting until Goku arrived and defeated the enemy in a fingersnap"

[JulieYBM]

I dont wanna be mean or gate keepy or anything, but there is so much you dont like on Dragon Ball I keep forgetting which parts you actually like, I've never seen praise, just X thing about Dragon Ball REALLY pisses me off or I cant stand it, but things, quirks, tropes, arcs and arquetypes you constantly criticize are very intrinsic in Dragon Ball. There is no part of Dragon Ball that is fully divorced from the things you hate about DB so I need to ask: What is it that you are like about dragon ball, the franchise itself?

- Most of the original DB, the Saiyan Saga, the first half of Namek, parts of the Boo Saga, and most of GT.
- Art direction and music.

Still, just because I like something, it doesn't mean I won't go, "Well, they sucked doing this, I hope they do it better next time."

But in other threads you made a big song and dance about how much you HATED those because they were nothing but "Waiting until Goku arrived and defeated the enemy in a fingersnap"

People have complicated feelings on art that range before singular emotions.

[kemuri07]

Then what are you saying? Because even when Goku does return, it's not as if he's this giant red button that removes every problem immediately. Like, sure I guess it can be a bit contrived as most of Z arcs are in some way about waiting for Goku, but I just think you're being outright dismissive over the story telling that occurs in Z. Its' like no different to me than saying that all DBZ is is characters yelling at each other for 5 min and powering up. It's such a dismissive take on a fantastic manga that I just can't agree with it.

Because yeah..I think you're wrong.

I'm saying watching 10 episodes in a row of Gohan, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chiaotzu and Kuririn all train only to arrive in the battlefield and commit suicide attacks and be unable to even scratch the enemy, only for Goku to arrive and wipe the floor with said enemy, is frustrating. Granted, at least two of those ensure their victory at the very end, but still... frustrating.

And that's so reductive to what actually happens in those chapters. Again, To reduce so many story elements to simply "lol y'all weak Goku strong." Now that is wrong.

I have my own complicated feelings towards DBZ, and I don't bump the series this hard because I think it's the most perfect anime ever made. I do so because despite it's many, many flaws it's still the progenitor of so many stuff that we all like and it earned the legacy it currently has. And going back and reading or watching DBZ, many of its most iconic moments work because of how well they're written.

I just think some of you take the series for granted.

[AliTheZombie13]

I was also personally unbothered by it. *shrug* Fans get way into this idea that Gohan was supposed to be the strongest, bestest fighter ever when it's obvious the whole "Gohan is super strong at the age of 4 because Saiyan/Earthling hybrids are uber powerful for reasons" was just an explanation for why Goku's toddler could fight alongside Goku and his friends instead of just drinking his chocolate milk at home with Chi Chi. By Toriyama's own admission Gohan was never created to be the main character and was more meant to be a foil to Goku (jock dad, nerd son)

Gohan super dork dad is way more interesting than Gohan "The New Goku"

I'm not asking for Gohan to be stronger than Goku.
I'm asking for Gohan not to be so utterly pathetic that his only use in the entire arc is get his ass kicked and then waste all energy to the point of nearly killing himself... just to call Goku to the battlefield.

But in other threads you made a big song and dance about how much you HATED those because they were nothing but "Waiting until Goku arrived and defeated the enemy in a fingersnap"

Um... I did? When did I ever complain about the Saiyan Saga? I don't like "Wait for Goku", but I do like the Saiyan Saga.
And while I do remember complaining about the Ginyu Force and the 30 episode-long climax against Freeza, I don't remember ever complaining about the first half of Namek. Never.

And that's so reductive to what actually happens in those chapters. Again, To reduce so many story elements to simply "lol y'all weak Goku strong." Now that is wrong.

I have my own complicated feelings towards DBZ, and I don't bump the series this hard because I think it's the most perfect anime ever made. I do so because despite it's many, many flaws it's still the progenitor of so many stuff that we all like and it earned the legacy it currently has. And going back and reading or watching DBZ, many of its most iconic moments work because of how well they're written.

I just think some of you take the series for granted.

Gohan and Piccolo get some good chemistry and character development in that arc, everyone else including Piccolo himself trains to die. That's it.

I'm not saying that to be reductive, that's literally what happens.
Let me ask you one question: Other than showing up to die, what has Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu and Roshi done in the entirety of DBZ?

One thing doesn't nullify the other. I love Yamcha's death, I love Piccolo's sacrifice and redemption, I love his interactions with Gohan. I don't love "Oh wee, all this training was for nothing, we barely stand a chance- Oh, never mind, Goku's here!"

This could've been done better. Toriyama could've found a better way to not make everyone else look absolutely pathetic in comparison to Goku. "But Goku is the main protagonist" doesn't really excuse any of it. Dragon Ball always had a clear problem managing its ever expanding cast.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I was also personally unbothered by it. *shrug* Fans get way into this idea that Gohan was supposed to be the strongest, bestest fighter ever when it's obvious the whole "Gohan is super strong at the age of 4 because Saiyan/Earthling hybrids are uber powerful for reasons" was just an explanation for why Goku's toddler could fight alongside Goku and his friends instead of just drinking his chocolate milk at home with Chi Chi. By Toriyama's own admission Gohan was never created to be the main character and was more meant to be a foil to Goku (jock dad, nerd son)

Gohan super dork dad is way more interesting than Gohan "The New Goku"

I'm not asking for Gohan to be stronger than Goku.
I'm asking for Gohan not to be so utterly pathetic that his only use in the entire arc is get his ass kicked and then waste all energy to the point of nearly killing himself... just to call Goku to the battlefield.

But in other threads you made a big song and dance about how much you HATED those because they were nothing but "Waiting until Goku arrived and defeated the enemy in a fingersnap"

Um... I did? When did I ever complain about the Saiyan Saga? I don't like "Wait for Goku", but I do like the Saiyan Saga.
And while I do remember complaining about the Ginyu Force and the 30 episode-long climax against Freeza, I don't remember ever complaining about the first half of Namek. Never.

And that's so reductive to what actually happens in those chapters. Again, To reduce so many story elements to simply "lol y'all weak Goku strong." Now that is wrong.

I have my own complicated feelings towards DBZ, and I don't bump the series this hard because I think it's the most perfect anime ever made. I do so because despite it's many, many flaws it's still the progenitor of so many stuff that we all like and it earned the legacy it currently has. And going back and reading or watching DBZ, many of its most iconic moments work because of how well they're written.

I just think some of you take the series for granted.

Gohan and Piccolo get some good chemistry and character development in that arc, everyone else including Piccolo himself trains to die. That's it.

I'm not saying that to be reductive, that's literally what happens.
Let me ask you one question: Other than showing up to die, what has Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu and Roshi done in the entirety of DBZ?

One thing doesn't nullify the other. I love Yamcha's death, I love Piccolo's sacrifice and redemption, I love his interactions with Gohan. I don't love "Oh wee, all this training was for nothing, we barely stand a chance- Oh, never mind, Goku's here!"

This could've been done better. Toriyama could've found a better way to not make everyone else look absolutely pathetic in comparison to Goku. "But Goku is the main protagonist" doesn't really excuse any of it. Dragon Ball always had a clear problem managing its ever expanding cast.

You say you do, but much like you accuse Toriyama of doing, you dont really mention elements you liked in the Saiyan Saga or the first half of Namek, and in those arcs the "Oh Goku, Where Are You Goku?" was at its strongest.

EDIT: To make it clear, this isnt a YOUR A HYPOCRITE or a GOTCHA post. But I want to know what did you like about the arcs then? Or you have complicated feelings for the arc, like Julie said?

[AliTheZombie13]

You say you do, but much like you accuse Toriyama of doing, you dont really mention elements you liked in the Saiyan Saga or the first half of Namek, and in those arcs the "Oh Goku, Where Are You Goku?" was at its strongest.

EDIT: To make it clear, this isnt a YOUR A HYPOCRITE or a GOTCHA post. But I want to know what did you like about the arcs then? Or you have complicated feelings for the arc, like Julie said?

I don't have complicated feelings about these arcs, what I like and don't like about them is fairly simple.
I like genuine character development, interaction, emotional weight and plot progression.
The Saiyan Arc gives me all that.

I don't like making characters look pathetically weak just to make Goku look better.
The Saiyan Arc unfortunately gives me that as well.

One thing doesn't nullify the other.
Disliking an aspect of Dragon Ball doesn't mean I hate all of it.

I don't mention these elements of the Saiyan Saga simply because they're not the focus of this discussion. We're not talking about what good the Saiyan or Namek arcs have to offer, we're talking about Dragon Ball sidelining its characters in favor of "Goku Time" and what this means for Daima, this is what this discussion has been all about since the beginning.

[Cure Dragon 255]

You say you do, but much like you accuse Toriyama of doing, you dont really mention elements you liked in the Saiyan Saga or the first half of Namek, and in those arcs the "Oh Goku, Where Are You Goku?" was at its strongest.

EDIT: To make it clear, this isnt a YOUR A HYPOCRITE or a GOTCHA post. But I want to know what did you like about the arcs then? Or you have complicated feelings for the arc, like Julie said?

I don't have complicated feelings about these arcs, what I like and don't like about them is fairly simple.
I like genuine character development, interaction, emotional weight and plot progression.
The Saiyan Arc gives me all that.

I don't like making characters look pathetically weak just to make Goku look better.
The Saiyan Arc unfortunately gives me that as well.

One thing doesn't nullify the other.
Disliking an aspect of Dragon Ball doesn't mean I hate all of it.

I don't mention these elements of the Saiyan Saga simply because they're not the focus of this discussion. We're not talking about what good the Saiyan or Namek arcs have to offer, we're talking about Dragon Ball sidelining its characters in favor of "Goku Time" and what this means for Daima, this is what this discussion has been all about since the beginning.

Ok great answer, I was curious, but I know now.

[Vegard Aune]

...So yeah. Hopefully characters other than just Goku will get to be in the limelight this series. The apparent depowering and lack of transformations and increased focus on actual martial arts sounds like it would make it much easier to have non-Saiyan characters stand side by side with Goku as his equals rather than just being there to get beaten so that the villains look extra evil and Goku looks extra cool defeating them. So if it does turn out to indeed just be Goku fighting alone, that would be a missed opportunity. Could still be fun, of course, but I do want Kuririn and other folks actually fighting too.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think if Goku is nerfed he can be an interesting character to follow again but I do agree I hope we see Daima focus on other people as well.

[JulieYBM]

This probably won't happen, but I do wish this series would have more insert songs. Those are so much fun to have play during battles or special moments.

[Cure Dragon 255]

This probably won't happen, but I do wish this series would have more insert songs. Those are so much fun to have play during battles or special moments.

I dont see why not? They were brought back in Super, and that was one of the most well received aspects of it. I really hope they Akira Kushida gets to sing one more song, we are losing him fast.

[Vegard Aune]

This probably won't happen, but I do wish this series would have more insert songs. Those are so much fun to have play during battles or special moments.

I dont see why not? They were brought back in Super, and that was one of the most well received aspects of it. I really hope they Akira Kushida gets to sing one more song, we are losing him fast.

It's just a thing the industry doesn't really do as much anymore. Like, yeah, shows nowadays still have the occasional insert songs... But back in the 80s, 90s and even early 2000s I feel like, they were almost a surefire thing for big moments.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I have heard it on Precure of all things. If that is not an indication that modern anime DOES do insert songs still nothing is. I wouldnt be agonizing for the posibility they might NOT have them, just chilling and if they appear cool and if they dont oh well.