Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

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Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by Piramid » Mon Jul 22, 2024 5:58 am

When Goku arrives on Namek, he has a base power level of 90,000 units, and he mentions that he is confident he can comfortably handle a Kaio-Ken x10. After healing to face Frieza, he supposedly has a power level of 3,000,000, but even then he cannot handle a Kaio-Ken x20 well. And it’s not just that he can’t handle it, he himself doesn’t think he could do it before even trying.

Why is it that Goku, despite being so incredibly strong compared to when he arrived on Namek, still thinks he can only handle a Kaio-Ken x10? Is it that he didn’t actually reach 3 million as the Daizenshuu indicates?

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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 22, 2024 9:13 am

The Kaio-Ken technique multiplies Goku's power but also puts an immense strain on his body. Even with a base power level of 3,000,000, the physical and mental toll of sustaining Kaio-Ken x20 is enormous. This explains why Goku is cautious about using higher multipliers as the series is ongoing (even in Dragon Ball Super when he is far stronger), since the risk of severe injury or exhaustion remains high.

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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jul 22, 2024 9:26 am

When Goku or others get stronger, they aren't suddenly a lot more able to handle certain techniques.

Kaio-ken is a massive strain because of the way the user forcibly multiplies their power, not just because of how much stronger they get; getting stronger naturally doesn't negate how the technique affects the user themselves.

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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by nickzambuto » Mon Jul 22, 2024 4:41 pm

Maybe he wasn't really 3 million in base.

King Kai reveals that Goku was using an invisible Kaioken the whole time.

Since he said he was comfortable with x10, that means his base could have been 300,000 and he was using kaioken x10 to reach 3 million.

It would make a lot more sense, if Goku started at 90,000, that he would reach 300,000.

Just a maybe...

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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jul 23, 2024 7:34 am

During the battle with Freeza, Goku is shown to struggle before using Kaio-Ken, but Freeza still realized he was holding back a good amount of strength. That was Kaio-Ken. Its use is shown as a separate, distinct effort from his base power if you have the full-color manga.

Likewise, the concept of an "invisible Kaio-Ken" has never been explicitly stated or shown in the series. Kaio-Ken is always depicted as a visible transformation with a distinct aura. If Goku had been using Kaio-Ken x10 invisibly, it would contradict the consistent visual portrayal of the technique throughout the series.

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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by DBZ Macky » Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:51 am

nickzambuto wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2024 4:41 pm Maybe he wasn't really 3 million in base.

King Kai reveals that Goku was using an invisible Kaioken the whole time.

Since he said he was comfortable with x10, that means his base could have been 300,000 and he was using kaioken x10 to reach 3 million.

It would make a lot more sense, if Goku started at 90,000, that he would reach 300,000.

Just a maybe...
That wouldn't explain how he was able to defeat Freeza as a Super Saiyan who had a battle power of 120 million, though.
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 7:34 am During the battle with Freeza, Goku is shown to struggle before using Kaio-Ken, but Freeza still realized he was holding back a good amount of strength. That was Kaio-Ken. Its use is shown as a separate, distinct effort from his base power if you have the full-color manga.

Likewise, the concept of an "invisible Kaio-Ken" has never been explicitly stated or shown in the series. Kaio-Ken is always depicted as a visible transformation with a distinct aura. If Goku had been using Kaio-Ken x10 invisibly, it would contradict the consistent visual portrayal of the technique throughout the series.
I find it easy to believe that Goku was just using Kaio-ken x10 in quick bursts which is why it seems "invisible" to everyone else including us. I think it's even shown that way in the Anime IIRC
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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:06 am

DBZ Macky wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:51 am I find it easy to believe that Goku was just using Kaio-ken x10 in quick bursts which is why it seems "invisible" to everyone else including us. I think it's even shown that way in the Anime IIRC
Yeah, but there is a slight difference in how Kaio describes the use of Kaio-Ken x10 between the anime and manga. In the anime, Kaio comments that Goku had been using it “the entire time”, whereas in the manga he simply says Goku is “already using it”, but only since Freeza started using half his power. Even if he is using it in quick bursts, it’s shown twice its reddish aura. Before that, Goku is never shown with a Kaio-Ken aura at any point during his fight with Freeza.

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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by nickzambuto » Tue Jul 23, 2024 11:30 pm

DBZ Macky wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:51 am
nickzambuto wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2024 4:41 pm Maybe he wasn't really 3 million in base.

King Kai reveals that Goku was using an invisible Kaioken the whole time.

Since he said he was comfortable with x10, that means his base could have been 300,000 and he was using kaioken x10 to reach 3 million.

It would make a lot more sense, if Goku started at 90,000, that he would reach 300,000.

Just a maybe...
That wouldn't explain how he was able to defeat Freeza as a Super Saiyan who had a battle power of 120 million, though.
The theory goes that this would mean Super Saiyan isn't a static multiplier, it is actually fluid, and can sometimes be a lot bigger than 50x, and sometimes it seems like less than 50x.

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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by Kaboom » Wed Jul 24, 2024 1:29 am

I've always just assumed that the intense gravity training Goku did on his way to Namek didn't just help make him stronger in a power-level sense, but also physically toughened him up quite a lot. Being able to pull off and withstand higher levels of the Kaio-Ken should be just as much about durability as raw strength level.
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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:04 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:06 am
DBZ Macky wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:51 am I find it easy to believe that Goku was just using Kaio-ken x10 in quick bursts which is why it seems "invisible" to everyone else including us. I think it's even shown that way in the Anime IIRC
Yeah, but there is a slight difference in how Kaio describes the use of Kaio-Ken x10 between the anime and manga. In the anime, Kaio comments that Goku had been using it “the entire time”, whereas in the manga he simply says Goku is “already using it”, but only since Freeza started using half his power. Even if he is using it in quick bursts, it’s shown twice its reddish aura. Before that, Goku is never shown with a Kaio-Ken aura at any point during his fight with Freeza.
I don't want to argue for "invisible Kaio-Ken", here...but I might have to sort of argue for "invisible Kaio-Ken". I know that's contentious, but you'll see what I mean. I've been thinking about talking about this for a while, but haven't seen a topic segue into it in ages - finally, the right conversation has come along.

You're right that there are definite characteristics on the page that signal a Kaio-Ken to the reader; you've mentioned some but I'll list them all, for the sake of things:
  • Goku usually announces that he's using the Kaio-Ken, sometimes along with a statement of the multiplier;
  • He glows red/crimson and gains a distinctive aura; in the anime and the full colour manga, the aura is itself red/crimson;
  • His muscles sometimes swell to contain the upsurge in power;
  • His eyes glint.
There is, however, an important caveat to this straightforward picture. And that caveat is: once the presence of a Kaio-Ken has been signalled, these characteristics are not always shown to be present on the page. This fact can be clearly seen in the fight with Vegeta, for example, when Goku shows him Kaio-Ken on demand for the first time:

(I've put all the images in this post in spoiler tags, for the sake of tidiness - hopefully you should also be able to click to get full size on some of the bigger ones, but really these are illustrative; really most people will know which bits of the manga I'm talking about)
I haven't included the several panels where he still does manifest an aura (except for the first panels, for comparison), to save space, and some of the images I'm using can be disputed due to framing conventions and whatnot - but surely not all of them. As we can see from the selected images, Goku announces the technique and starts with an aura, but then he loses the aura when he pummels Vegeta, up to the point when Vegeta kicks him away. But we know Kaio-Ken is still active for Goku because (a) he's still glowing, even though the aura is gone in these places, and (b) his fighting performance level is still enhanced. Of course, we can see Goku is glowing because these are colour pages in the original manga (albeit with a limited palette). But the manga is otherwise in black and white, of course. So without the option to show Goku glowing with just colour in the usual black and white pages, does that mean we readers will always see the Kaio-Ken aura when Goku is using it?

Crucially, no, we don't. When Goku ups his Kaio-Ken some more and takes on Vegeta again, there are always clear signals that he is using a Kaio-Ken - he announces it, and we may see an aura in some panels. But then, having left the reader with that signal, the aura isn't always there:
As we can see from the images, it's particularly true of the Kamehameha/Gyarikku Hou struggle - the aura only makes an appearance at the beginning for Goku, when he announces a Kaio-Ken x3 and charges his Kamehameha. Once he fires his attack, we never see an aura again. Likewise, we obviously don't see him glowing. But in any case we don't really need to see that kind of cue, because Goku announces his usage clearly, and his performance is enhanced accordingly. The clear signals allow the more striking visual characteristics we think of as always being present with a Kaio-Ken to actually not be present on the page in several places. Bear this in mind for what comes next.

The critical difference in the fight with Freeza is that Goku using Kaio-Ken is deliberately hidden from the reader for narrative effect. We think Goku's okay because he has Kaio-Ken up his sleeve, but that rug gets pulled out from under us when Kaio-sama tells us Goku is already using it. Cue some obliging panels of Goku with his distinctive aura, displaying overtly what Kaio-sama has already signalled for us through dialogue. So the question is, how long does this narrative deception go on for? Just when Goku takes on Freeza at 50% power? You're right to say that we get no explicit signal that Goku is using Kaio-Ken before that.

But consider this panel, for a moment. It comes at the beginning of the ground battle, well before the section where we get the revelation that Goku is using Kaio-Ken:
We have a very Kaio-Ken-ish aura here, and Goku's eyes are glinting. There is no announcement, but as we've discussed, narratively these signals are deliberately being withheld for later impact anyway. So is this something that gives the reader a covert, implicit signal that Goku is already using a Kaio-Ken here, at this earlier point in the fight? I've seen it brought up once or twice before, but it's usually shut down on the basis that the full colour manga gives Goku a very non-Kaio-Ken aura here. No doubt this is at least partly because it conforms to the anime's colouring scheme for the scene, which we can see below:
You'd think that would be the end of it; the full colour manga is the official product, and while it doesn't always correspond to Toriyama's original colour pages but instead sometimes conforms to anime colour schemes (think Karin's blue fur, or kid Gohan's green gi in the fight with the Saiyans, which are present in original manga colour pages but are not reflected in the full colour manga), simply saying so in a suggestive way doesn't get us very far.

What does get us further, and what I have never seen discussed on here about this panel of the manga, is that the guidebooks say it is an example of Goku using Kaio-Ken. Both Daizenshuu Volume 2 and the Super Exciting Guide (Character Volume) slap this very panel up and call it a Kaio-Ken. Daizenshuu Volume 2 goes so far as to say it's already a Kaio-Ken x10. Here are the relevant pages:
So, we have official sources telling us that this is a Kaio-Ken. If you accept that, then, we already push back the beginning of Goku using the technique to the start of his ground battle with Freeza. It's a much more ambiguous signal within the storyline than we're used to - the aura and eye glint hardly show up again, there's no announcement, obviously there's no glowing, etc. - but arguably, that's all bent towards the narrative goal of revealing that Goku has already been using Kaio-Ken. So we get a maybe-maybe-not signal (in place of the usual clear signal), leading up to a revelation that on balance may be seen to retrospectively confirm its presence in the earlier sequence, if the reader looks again closely - the black-and-white pages play into this ambiguity because obviously Goku will not be shown glowing crimson in the way that he does in the fight against Vegeta.

On balance, therefore, the chances that Goku is using a Kaio-Ken for the whole ground battle sequence that is signalled at the outset but deniable and mostly unseen thereafter (principally for narrative reasons, but also because colour signals wouldn't be shown in the medium) seem pretty good, to me - though one might perhaps question the Daizenshuu's claiming this to be a ten-fold Kaio-Ken (if Goku's already been fighting at his upper safe limit, why's he so confident that he can take Freeza after struggling against him in the ground battle? How is it that Freeza perceives that Goku's got more to give?); maybe there's a bog-standard Kaio-Ken x2 here - it would make sense, as a way of Goku starting to get more serious with Freeza.

There is a further possibility that could be seen to indicate an even earlier use of Kaio-Ken than this (though my own opinion is that this is somewhat less likely; I wouldn't affirm it, myself) - before Goku begins the fight with Freeza, he zips to the battlefield and there's a close-up with a curious detail just before he gets there:
Maybe a pretty suggestive-looking glint in Goku's eye, there..? Add the fact that Kuririn notes that something feels different about Goku's ki even before the fight starts, and could this be yet another set of sneaky Kaio-Ken-ish hints? If so, then there's an argument to be made that Goku's using the technique throughout, from the very start. Personally, I think this instance has much weaker support than the other one - I haven't seen any other official source claim Kaio-Ken for Goku here, and the glint in the eye isn't just a Kaio-Ken thing; it can happen for a number of reasons - strong emotional reactions (fear, shock, anger, etc.), for instance. But I thought I'd put it out there anyway, for consideration and completeness.

As a final note, I'm aware that "invisible Kaio-Ken" is used principally to hypothesize a much lower BP for Goku than the Daizenshuu gives him (the suggestion pops up in this very thread; it's been around for yonks), usually motivated by some sort of power-scaling incredulity. This is not my position; I basically follow the Daizenshuu - I just wanted to bring the possibility of, and actual evidence for, some sneaky Kaio-Ken action from Goku at an earlier point in the fight than is usually supposed.

So, not exactly your traditional "invisible Kaio-Ken" argument. Hope it was interesting!

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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by Piramid » Tue Jul 30, 2024 1:37 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:04 pm
Great analysis :clap: . I just have two things to say:

- I don't think it's possible that Goku was using KKx10 before Frieza used his 50%. The fact that both Piccolo and Frieza either directly or indirectly say that Goku was holding back power confirms this.

- I do think it's very possible that Goku was using some kind of KK multiplier when he was heading to the battle from the spaceship. Those glowing eyes give him away. I see a clear intention on Toriyama's part. It would take much more than those initial 3 million to surprise Frieza in the way that Goku does.

In summary, what I think happens is the following: Goku activates a basic KK as soon as he recovers, then heads to the battle and has a "warm-up" fight against Frieza. Then they go down to the ground, Goku takes off his shirt and stretches. At that moment, he starts fighting more seriously but is still holding back power. Here, he probably increases the KK multiplier a bit (maybe x3 or x4).
When Frieza starts using his 50%, Goku has no choice but to increase the multiplier to x10 to try to defend himself, but even then, he can't do it. However, he does manage to surprise Frieza, who even says that it's incredible he survived his last kick. This fact, along with both Frieza and Piccolo telling us that Goku had been holding back power until that moment (but not after), indicates that Goku increased his power when Frieza raised his to 50%.

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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by theherodjl » Tue Jul 30, 2024 7:33 pm

Not to get too off-topic, but in order to properly gauge Goku's 3 million PL against him, what should 4th form Freeza's PL be before going to 50%??? It can't also be simply 3,000,000, because he withstood Goku's surprise attack and suffered no damage whatsoever. I remember a fansite somewhere once listed Freeza's 4th form as 3,600,000 and I've always kinda gone with that, but would it actually still be higher?
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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by Piramid » Wed Jul 31, 2024 12:38 am

theherodjl wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 7:33 pm Not to get too off-topic, but in order to properly gauge Goku's 3 million PL against him, what should 4th form Freeza's PL be before going to 50%??? It can't also be simply 3,000,000, because he withstood Goku's surprise attack and suffered no damage whatsoever. I remember a fansite somewhere once listed Freeza's 4th form as 3,600,000 and I've always kinda gone with that, but would it actually still be higher?
In my view, Goku might have been using a lower multiplier than x10 from the beginning of the fight. I mean, Goku could have even had a PL of just 1,000 and been using KKx4 or x5 from the start, and the fight would still make sense.

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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by theherodjl » Fri Aug 02, 2024 9:50 pm

Piramid wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 12:38 amIn my view, Goku might have been using a lower multiplier than x10 from the beginning of the fight. I mean, Goku could have even had a PL of just 1,000 and been using KKx4 or x5 from the start, and the fight would still make sense.
I'm sorry to say that's not what I was asking. I want to know what PL do people have for Freeza's 4th form prior to him going to 50%?
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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by Piramid » Sat Aug 03, 2024 6:00 am

theherodjl wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2024 9:50 pm
Piramid wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 12:38 amIn my view, Goku might have been using a lower multiplier than x10 from the beginning of the fight. I mean, Goku could have even had a PL of just 1,000 and been using KKx4 or x5 from the start, and the fight would still make sense.
I'm sorry to say that's not what I was asking. I want to know what PL do people have for Freeza's 4th form prior to him going to 50%?
I think my answer is clear: I’m saying that his power could be over 3 million because Goku could have been using a low multiplier of the Kaio-ken.

I know you were asking for Freeza's exact power at that moment, but I, at least, can't give you a precise answer, because his power at that moment depends on what Goku was using. I don't think the exact power level can be determined.

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Re: Kaio-Ken x10 and Goku's Two Base Power Levels on Namek

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Aug 03, 2024 8:53 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:04 pm What does get us further, and what I have never seen discussed on here about this panel of the manga, is that the guidebooks say it is an example of Goku using Kaio-Ken. Both Daizenshuu Volume 2 and the Super Exciting Guide (Character Volume) slap this very panel up and call it a Kaio-Ken. Daizenshuu Volume 2 goes so far as to say it's already a Kaio-Ken x10. Here are the relevant pages:
So, we have official sources telling us that this is a Kaio-Ken. If you accept that, then, we already push back the beginning of Goku using the technique to the start of his ground battle with Freeza. It's a much more ambiguous signal within the storyline than we're used to - the aura and eye glint hardly show up again, there's no announcement, obviously there's no glowing, etc. - but arguably, that's all bent towards the narrative goal of revealing that Goku has already been using Kaio-Ken. So we get a maybe-maybe-not signal (in place of the usual clear signal), leading up to a revelation that on balance may be seen to retrospectively confirm its presence in the earlier sequence, if the reader looks again closely - the black-and-white pages play into this ambiguity because obviously Goku will not be shown glowing crimson in the way that he does in the fight against Vegeta.

On balance, therefore, the chances that Goku is using a Kaio-Ken for the whole ground battle sequence that is signalled at the outset but deniable and mostly unseen thereafter (principally for narrative reasons, but also because colour signals wouldn't be shown in the medium) seem pretty good, to me - though one might perhaps question the Daizenshuu's claiming this to be a ten-fold Kaio-Ken (if Goku's already been fighting at his upper safe limit, why's he so confident that he can take Freeza after struggling against him in the ground battle? How is it that Freeza perceives that Goku's got more to give?); maybe there's a bog-standard Kaio-Ken x2 here - it would make sense, as a way of Goku starting to get more serious with Freeza.
Great point! Thanks for digging into this. I’m not going to argue against the guidebooks just yet, but considering that Daizenshuu 2 was released in 1995 and the Super Exciting Guide in 2009, I assume some data in the SEG was imported from the Daizenshuu, except for the 10-fold boost in this case.

I agree that it’s difficult to determine Goku’s state in the black-and-white pages, which does support the Kaio-Ken x? theory for that scene. However, I believe the full-color pages provide stronger evidence against it. Since they were released in 2013, they likely went through extensive revisions.

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