SSJ Multipier: "10-fold change from what it was up to that point"

[Piramid]

Although the official guides say that SSJ multiplies the base power by x50, Toriyama himself confirmed that this might not be entirely accurate and that it could have been a later interpretation. He also mentioned that the x50 multiplier seemed a bit exaggerated to him and that, from his perspective, the transformation represented more of a 10-fold change in the character's strength at that point.

Spoiler:

ただ当時、スーパーサイヤ人になると、約５０倍の強さとされていたんですが、ちょっと大袈裟でしたね。作者の気持ちとしては、今までの１０倍ぐらいの変化、という感じで描いていたと思います。

"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."

Considering Goku’s condition during his fight with Freezer, we can explore a different angle. When Goku transforms into SSJ, he is exhausted from using KKx20 and injured mainly due to the beating he received at the hands of Freezer while gathering energy for the Genki Dama. It’s possible that Toriyama referred to a 10-fold increase from Goku's state at that moment, rather than his full, fresh power.

In the moments leading up to the transformation, we can see Goku in several panels with glowing eyes. This might indicate that, despite being badly injured, he had reactivated the KK as it seemed to be activated just at the moment he launched the Genki Dama at Freezer.

In the interview we are referring to, Toriyama wouldn't be explicitly saying that Goku directly multiplied the power he had at that moment by x10, but rather he would only be making a comparison between his power before transforming (with KK activated) and his power once transformed. In other words, he wouldn't be saying "Goku multiplied his base power by x10," but "Goku at instant X was 10 times stronger than at instant Y." Toriyama would simply be making a comparison between Goku's power just before transforming and after transforming, leaving the actual multiplier with respect to his base power unknown.

If we were to speculate about this multiplier, we could assume that due to adrenaline or some other cause, Goku regained some power since he no longer appears so tired, even when he detransforms before Freezer ends up cut in half, indicating some recovery or stabilization of power after the transformation. That said, it’s even possible that Goku experienced a power increase due to Zenkai Power.

Here is a speculative breakdown of the power levels during the fight:

Initial Goku: 3,000,000
Initial Goku KKx10: 30,000,000
Initial Goku KKx20: 60,000,000
Freezer 50%: 60,000,000
Injured Goku KKx10: 9,000,000
Goku SSJ: 90,000,000
Injured Freezer 100%: 90,000,000
Base Goku at the end of the fight: unknown

Thoughts?

[Hugo Boss]

Freezamite, is that you?!

Toriyama was simply expressing how it felt to him like a 10-fold increase while drawing it, which is understandable. A 50-fold increase in anything can be challenging to depict or imagine.

Besides, this quote from Toriyama is from the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, the same guidebook that not only reaffirmed the official 50x boost for Super Saiyan but also introduced the official boosts for SS2 and SS3. It’s unlikely that it would include these details if Toriyama intended to assert that the boost was actually 10x.

[Piramid]

Read again because at no point do I say that Goku multiplies his base power by 10.

[Hugo Boss]

Read again because at no point do I say that Goku multiplies his base power by 10.

You are suggesting that it’s a 10-fold increase on top of his Kaioken x10, which would result in a 100-fold increase. This would contradict the notion that a 50-fold increase felt exaggerated.

[Piramid]

Read again because at no point do I say that Goku multiplies his base power by 10.

You are suggesting that it’s a 10-fold increase on top of his Kaioken x10, which would result in a 100-fold increase. This would contradict the notion that a 50-fold increase felt exaggerated.

I'm not suggesting that at all. Read it again:

In the interview we are referring to, Toriyama wouldn't be explicitly saying that Goku directly multiplied the power he had at that moment by x10, but rather he would only be making a comparison between his power before transforming (with KK activated) and his power once transformed. In other words, he wouldn't be saying "Goku multiplied his base power by x10," but "Goku at instant X was 10 times stronger than at instant Y." Toriyama would simply be making a comparison between Goku's power just before transforming and after transforming, leaving the actual multiplier with respect to his base power unknown.

[Hugo Boss]

In case you forgot you wrote this:

Here is a speculative breakdown of the power levels during the fight:

Initial Goku: 3,000,000
Initial Goku KKx10: 30,000,000
Initial Goku KKx20: 60,000,000
Freezer 50%: 60,000,000
Injured Goku KKx10: 9,000,000
Goku SSJ: 90,000,000
Injured Freezer 100%: 90,000,000
Base Goku at the end of the fight: unknown

Thoughts?

You are suggesting Super Saiyan boost was applied on top of Goku’s Kaio-Ken x10, which makes the multiplier a 100-fold increase, but that’s not how Super Saiyan works or neither what Toriyama is talking about there.

[Piramid]

No, I didn't say that. I'm saying that Toriyama could have just made a comparison.

Also, what is your problem? Can't you respond normally? You started with a hostile attitude from the beginning. I don't understand anything. Did I do something wrong?

Can't we all share our opinions, see where we're wrong, and reach a consensus about a manga that we all like so much? Why does everything have to be so polarized?

[Koitsukai]

With the tenner, we have to assume the powers went down like crazy for both of them, and throw out the window the old 150 vs 120 scenario.
If Goku's power went down to like 1M (1/3 of his initial power), then his SS was 10M, and Freeza also must've lost a lot of power after the genkidama. If he was at 70%, then he was 7M and reached 10M at full power.

For Goku to reach 100M after losing so much power, SS would have to be 100x base. Unless he did the unthinkable of stacking SS on top of KKx10, which makes no sense because Goku was depleted when he turned SS, it was a power up boosting his base form only.
I mean, it's not crazy to think they were both depleted and their FP was just a fraction of what it could actually have been, but it's odd to think their final bout had lower power levels than those seen when they were pretty much warming up. It does vibe better with the anime filler of Gohan showing up to fight a suppressed Freeza for a while, though.

Anyway, 50x for SS makes the most sense for the rest of the series, a 10x boost doesn't really fit after Namek.
Since Toriyama never bothered to give an actual multiplier for SS, it probably comes down to him not really having made up his mind at that time thus the "it felt not as much as what people thought at first" comment.

I do wonder where did the "at first people thought it was 50x boost" came out from... back when that chapter was released people were already thinking it was 50x? sure, it's logical, Goku goes 10x, fails, then 20x, fails again, and then 50x and succeedes. Like, did fans write letters to V-Jump saying SS was 50x? where did he get the idea that people were giving SS a 50x boost?

[Hugo Boss]

No, I didn't say that. I'm saying that Toriyama could have just made a comparison.

Also, what is your problem? Can't you respond normally? You started with a hostile attitude from the beginning. I don't understand anything. Did I do something wrong?

Can't we all share our opinions, see where we're wrong, and reach a consensus about a manga that we all like so much? Why does everything have to be so polarized?

You did say that Toriyama could have made a comparison, which is exactly what I was addressing in my response.

I'm not sure why you felt that I was being hostile, as I was simply clarifying what Toriyama actually said, especially since it seemed like you misunderstood his statement.

There's nothing wrong with sharing opinions, of course, as long as it's done in good faith and without distorting the original meaning of the words. I’m just here to have a clear and honest discussion about the topic.

[Piramid]

With the tenner, we have to assume the powers went down like crazy for both of them, and throw out the window the old 150 vs 120 scenario.
If Goku's power went down to like 1M (1/3 of his initial power), then his SS was 10M, and Freeza also must've lost a lot of power after the genkidama. If he was at 70%, then he was 7M and reached 10M at full power.

For Goku to reach 100M after losing so much power, SS would have to be 100x base. Unless he did the unthinkable of stacking SS on top of KKx10, which makes no sense because Goku was depleted when he turned SS, it was a power up boosting his base form only.
I mean, it's not crazy to think they were both depleted and their FP was just a fraction of what it could actually have been, but it's odd to think their final bout had lower power levels than those seen when they were pretty much warming up. It does vibe better with the anime filler of Gohan showing up to fight a suppressed Freeza for a while, though.

Anyway, 50x for SS makes the most sense for the rest of the series, a 10x boost doesn't really fit after Namek.
Since Toriyama never bothered to give an actual multiplier for SS, it probably comes down to him not really having made up his mind at that time thus the "it felt not as much as what people thought at first" comment.

I do wonder where did the "at first people thought it was 50x boost" came out from... back when that chapter was released people were already thinking it was 50x? sure, it's logical, Goku goes 10x, fails, then 20x, fails again, and then 50x and succeedes. Like, did fans write letters to V-Jump saying SS was 50x? where did he get the idea that people were giving SS a 50x boost?

But my theory isn't that Toriyama said the SSJ multiplied Goku's power with the Kaio-ken x10. Rather, it's that Toriyama made a comparison between the power Goku had while injured with the Kaio-ken x10 and the power he had when he transformed.

I repeat, a comparison. In other words, the base power multiplier (without Kaio-ken) would be a mystery. It could very well be x50, and I'm not saying it couldn't be. But what is clear is that x50 seemed exaggerated to him at the time the manga was published. Maybe it could be x30, we don't know.

I'm not sure if I explained myself poorly, but at no point did I say that Goku's power in SSJ includes his base power plus Kaio-ken.

[Kaboom]

As with most power-level related topics, you're thinking too hard about it. It has nothing to do with factoring in the Kaio-Ken, or Goku being weakened from battle, or anything else like that.

Toriyama was just commenting on how big the Super Saiyan power boost "felt" to him as he was writing and drawing it. And it makes sense — a 50-fold boost in anything, especially something as immaterial as "strength" or "ki power," is tough to visualize or represent in any tangible way. A 10-fold increase is a lot easier to imagine.

[nickzambuto]

It doesn't make sense because a 10x increase would be less than the Kaioken x20.

So maybe Toriyama meant it was a 10x increase from Goku's max power which was Kaioken x20. In which case SSJ is a 200x multiplier instead of 50x.

[Piramid]

I think there's a misunderstanding about what Toriyama meant by his comment about Goku's power increasing 10-fold when he transformed into a SSJ.

Toriyama was comparing two very specific states of Goku:

-Goku injured, using Kaio-Ken: This was his state up to that point, just before transforming, when he was exhausted and weakened from battle.

-Goku transformed into a SSJ: Here, Goku had slightly recovered from his injuries and was no longer using the Kaio-Ken.

What Toriyama wanted to convey is that the difference in power between these two states was approximately 10 times. This doesn't mean that the SSJ multiplier is x10. It simply indicates that, in this particular instance, the transformation represented a 10-fold change compared to Goku's weakened state.

It's important to remember that Goku's conditions before and after the transformation were very different. The fact that he had recovered a bit and stopped using the Kaio-Ken significantly influences the comparison.

In summary, Toriyama was making a specific observation about a particular situation, and he wasn't establishing a general rule for the SSJ multiplier.

This interpretation doesn't contradict the official guides that indicate a multiplier of x50. It simply offers an additional perspective based on Toriyama's words and the context of the story.

In fact, this interpretation strongly denies that the SSJ multiplies the power by x10.

[Hugo Boss]

What Toriyama said reflects his perception as the creator rather than providing a detailed comparison of specific states of Goku. He felt that the transformation seemed to multiply Goku’s power by about 10 times when drawing it, but this doesn’t necessarily mean he was comparing a wounded, Kaio-Ken-using Goku with a Super Saiyan Goku. Toriyama was speaking in general terms, reflecting on how he visualized the power increase. It’s more of an artistic perspective than a technical rule.

[DanielSSJ]

I think there's a misunderstanding about what Toriyama meant by his comment about Goku's power increasing 10-fold when he transformed into a SSJ.

Toriyama was comparing two very specific states of Goku:

-Goku injured, using Kaio-Ken: This was his state up to that point, just before transforming, when he was exhausted and weakened from battle.

-Goku transformed into a SSJ: Here, Goku had slightly recovered from his injuries and was no longer using the Kaio-Ken.

What Toriyama wanted to convey is that the difference in power between these two states was approximately 10 times. This doesn't mean that the SSJ multiplier is x10. It simply indicates that, in this particular instance, the transformation represented a 10-fold change compared to Goku's weakened state.

It's important to remember that Goku's conditions before and after the transformation were very different. The fact that he had recovered a bit and stopped using the Kaio-Ken significantly influences the comparison.

In summary, Toriyama was making a specific observation about a particular situation, and he wasn't establishing a general rule for the SSJ multiplier.

This interpretation doesn't contradict the official guides that indicate a multiplier of x50. It simply offers an additional perspective based on Toriyama's words and the context of the story.

In fact, this interpretation strongly denies that the SSJ multiplies the power by x10.

No offense, but I kinda doubt Toriyama remembered the finer details of Goku's condition before and after the transformation when he made this comment in 2009, nearly 20 years after the transformation took place. We're talking about the guy who forgot Super Saiyan 2 altogether, afterall.

Also, I'm sorry, but the premise that Goku was using the Kaioken prior to transforming because his pupils were drawn white is an absurd stretch. Toriyama uses whitened-out pupils to highlight strong emotions like shock or anger all the time in the manga. They're hardly a Kaioken-exclusive trait. I mean, Gohan's eyes are drawn the exact same way in this exact scene, and he's definitely not using the Kaioken, is he?

[Piramid]

What Toriyama said reflects his perception as the creator rather than providing a detailed comparison of specific states of Goku. He felt that the transformation seemed to multiply Goku’s power by about 10 times when drawing it, but this doesn’t necessarily mean he was comparing a wounded, Kaio-Ken-using Goku with a Super Saiyan Goku. Toriyama was speaking in general terms, reflecting on how he visualized the power increase. It’s more of an artistic perspective than a technical rule.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean that. I am just providing a perspective on that statement that I have never seen anywhere else and wanted to share it with you to see what your opinion was.

Anyway, I don't think Toriyama was speaking in general terms. The key is in "what it was up to that point."

Goku's power had already been multiplied by 10 for a long time in the fight. It wouldn't make sense for Toriyama to want to represent an increase of 10 times compared to his base state. That would be too little, and I doubt that Toriyama would have felt more comfortable representing that change at that point in the fight.

No offense, but I kinda doubt Toriyama remembered the finer details of Goku's condition before and after the transformation when he made this comment in 2009, nearly 20 years after the transformation took place. We're talking about the guy who forgot Super Saiyan 2 altogether, afterall.

Also, I'm sorry, but the premise that Goku was using the Kaioken prior to transforming because his pupils were drawn white is an absurd stretch. Toriyama uses whitened-out pupils to highlight strong emotions like shock or anger all the time in the manga. They're hardly a Kaioken-exclusive trait. I mean, Gohan's eyes are drawn the exact same way in this exact scene, and he's definitely not using the Kaioken, is he?

Toriyama probably doesn’t remember specific details, but he is talking about this particular topic without anyone asking him, so he does remember that the change was tenfold relative to "something".

We don't know if Goku was using the Kaioken at the moment Krillin died, but it does seem like he is using it when he is gathering energy for the Genki Dama. That would be the last time Goku shows power while fighting, so maybe Toriyama was referring to that.

[DanielSSJ]

Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean that. I am just providing a perspective on that statement that I have never seen anywhere else and wanted to share it with you to see what your opinion was.

Anyway, I don't think Toriyama was speaking in general terms. The key is in "what it was up to that point."

Goku's power had already been multiplied by 10 for a long time in the fight. It wouldn't make sense for Toriyama to want to represent an increase of 10 times compared to his base state. That would be too little, and I doubt that Toriyama would have felt more comfortable representing that change at that point in the fight.

"Up to that point" to me reads as him taking about either Goku's top base power or top Kaioken power, not something so granular as his diminished power in a weakened state where he doesn't even do any fighting. That kind of nitty-gritty ultra specific detail is I associate with fans taking about power levels on a forum, not with Toriyama.

Toriyama probably doesn’t remember specific details, but he is talking about this particular topic without anyone asking him, so he does remember that the change was tenfold relative to "something".

We don't know if Goku was using the Kaioken at the moment Krillin died, but it does seem like he is using it when he is gathering energy for the Genki Dama. That would be the last time Goku shows power while fighting, so maybe Toriyama was referring to that.

It doesn't seem like it to me. Like I said, the whitened out pupils are basically just a tool Toriyama uses to make a character's expression look more intense. The lack of any aura is a much stronger indicator to me that Goku ISN'T using Kaioken at the time. Moreover, Toriyama isn't that subtle of a writer. If he intended for Goku to be using the Kaioken, he'd let us know, unless there was a narrative reason not to (like when it was revealed that Goku was already using it against Freeza to pull the rug out from under the audience).

[Piramid]

If he were referring to his base power at the beginning of the fight, it wouldn't make any sense, as it would give him a power level similar to KKx10. I don't think he would have felt comfortable showing the number one in the universe with such little power. Multiplying the power by 10 relative to KKx20 can't be right, because x50 already seemed exaggerated to him, and that would be even more so.

I do find it logical that he was referring to the last power Goku shows up to that point, with which he does "fight," since he takes several hits from Frieza in that state and launches the Genki Dama. I even think it's more logical to assume he was referring to that, and it creates the least issues with the official KKx50.

By the way, in the fight against Vegeta on Earth, Goku uses the Kaioken several times without an aura. I think there is no doubt that while gathering energy for the Genki Dama, Goku is using the Kaioken.

[Hugo Boss]

The phrase ‘what it was up to that point’ could be interpreted in various ways, including how Goku’s power felt to Toriyama during that specific moment in the story. At the very least, we know he isn’t talking about Kaio-Ken, because it’s not being used at that point. He’s discussing his artistic impression, which didn’t carry over to the series, where the Super Saiyan power increase was considered a 50-fold boost, although exaggerated. He isn’t exactly trying to reconcile or retcon the original multiplier.

[LightBing]

Everyone assumes Goku Kaioken x20 is equal to Freeza's 50%. This seems the main reason why people can't wrap their heads around the validity of this quote.

- It's directly stated and shown that Freeza at 50% handles Goku x10.
- Goku goes for the Kaioken x20, it's his last chance. Goku hopes Freeza is bluffing, otherwise not even this last gamble will work.
This means that Goku x20 is stronger than 50% Freeza!

Spoiler:

Chapter: 313 (DBZ 119), P8.1
Goku: "I ain't got no choice but to raise the K... Kaio-Ken up to twenty-fold... Though my bo... body might not be able to take it... B... but if he really is at 50 percent now, like he says he is, then there ain't nothing at all I can do..."

Now all we need to do, for Toriyama's vision to be realized, is to correctly put Goku x20 between 50% Freeza and 100% Freeza with the later obviously being weaker than SSJ with a 30% multiplier.

Rough numbers:

Goku
Base - 2.500.000
KKx10 - 25.000.000
KKX20 - 50.000.000
SSJ(x30) - 75.000.000

Freeza
50% - 32.000.000
100% - 64.000.000

Food for thought. Kinda feeling a itch to re-read the manga and make a only Manga plus Toriyama quotes power level list.