A rebuttal to the defense of the Zamasu arc ending

[Hulk10]

This once-intriguing story arc's absolutely abysmal ending is the thing that made me finally, after cutting it way too much slack already, give up on and completely discount Dragon Ball Super. I did briefly peek back into the manga when the Moro arc seemed like it might turn out interesting, but suffice to say I also ended up dropping that before too long. But I digress.

The way I've almost always summed up my feelings about the Zamas arc's ending is this: If I wanted depressing and grim endings where the heroes are ultimately overwhelmed and lose everything they've been fighting for, then I'd be reading and watching other series. Ones that are very different from Dragon Ball.

Real life is depressing enough. So in my adventurous, high-energy, made-for-kids fantasy escape fiction, I want to see the good guys actually win in the end. It doesn't have to always be an absolutely one-sided total win, and the heroes having to endure some sacrifices in the process makes for good drama and is expected.

A "bittersweet ending" is something like Goku sacrificing himself during the climax of the Cell Games, or him leaving with Shenlong for parts unknown at the end of GT. But this was way beyond that. There was no victory. Zamas was defeated in the end, but only by the intervention of an even more vile and destructive villain who "fixed" the problem by just going completely scorched-Earth on everything. And in the process, Trunks had his past legacy as a character and a symbol of "hope" completely undercut and crushed by all of the above. Not to mention the other stupid shit that this story arc introduced like the Potara retcon attempt, the introduction of "Super Saiyan Blue But Now Pink," and the additional flanderization of Goku's character.

Nobody won. Trunks lost. The people Trunks was trying to save in his timeline lost. The other heroes trying to help Trunks lost. The audience lost. Dragon Ball's larger mythos and reputation lost. My last embers of hope that modern Dragon Ball material could actually be good or worth embracing lost, and hard. And several years later, seeing anyone try to defend this arc's ending as actually good just baffles me.

I agree with most of what Kaboom says. Though I personally like the explanation behind the Potara.

[JulieYBM]

The ending is absurdist humor that cuts off the legs and more interesting character and story work because Toriyama wants to do an absurdist ending, and nobody talked to him about how it was perhaps more fun to keep Zamasu and Black around because their relationship was fun to play with.

I enjoy an ending where everyone dies, but this was not that.

[SupremeKai25]

I used to think that the ending of this arc was depressing. But then I realized that it's not and that the writers never planned for it to be depressing.

You people do realize that Future Bulma/Gohan/Yajirobe/Kids are brought back into existence, Yes? Because Future Trunks, with the Angels' help, restores the timeline to an exact point in time before Black and Zamasu launched their attack.

Trunks' goal was always to create a peaceful world. He accomplished this. With the help of the Angels, he warned Future Beerus of Black and Zamasu's plans and destroyed them before they could set anything in motion.

So Trunks restored his Future timeline and averted Black and Zamasu's reign of terror, so he won.

It's a happy ending.




As a side note, this arc was NECESSARY to complete Trunks' story. As a matter of fact, Trunks' story in DBZ was left unfinished because it's never shown how Trunks could have dealt with Majin Buu. This and many more questions were answered by Super, and so this Super arc finally concluded Trunks' story.

[ZombieVito]

I used to think that the ending of this arc was depressing. But then I realized that it's not and that the writers never planned for it to be depressing.

You people do realize that Future Bulma/Gohan/Yajirobe/Kids are brought back into existence, Yes? Because Future Trunks, with the Angels' help, restores the timeline to an exact point in time before Black and Zamasu launched their attack.

Trunks' goal was always to create a peaceful world. He accomplished this. With the help of the Angels, he warned Future Beerus of Black and Zamasu's plans and destroyed them before they could set anything in motion.

So Trunks restored his Future timeline and averted Black and Zamasu's reign of terror, so he won.

It's a happy ending.




As a side note, this arc was NECESSARY to complete Trunks' story. As a matter of fact, Trunks' story in DBZ was left unfinished because it's never shown how Trunks could have dealt with Majin Buu. This and many more questions were answered by Super, and so this Super arc finally concluded Trunks' story.

They aren't the same people though. Just another variant timeline and the ending is better for it. Real consequences in DB is something I wanted to see for a LONG time.

You are right about Future Trunks story left unfinished because of Majin Boo but now people are going to ask how Trunks would deal with Moro lol. As far as I know nothing prevents him for being a problem in that world.

[SupremeKai25]

They aren't the same people though. Just another variant timeline and the ending is better for it. Real consequences in DB is something I wanted to see for a LONG time.

But Trunks and Mai don't care. They never say "but the Bulma over there isn't the same person as my mother."

It's a non-existent problem that you are creating. The characters in the story don't care. They only care that there will already be a version of Trunks and Mai there, but they ultimately accept to coexist.

For all intents and purposes, it is a happy ending for Trunks and Mai. That there are also real consequences (there are) just means that Toriyama had his cake and ate it too.

You are right about Future Trunks story left unfinished because of Majin Boo but now people are going to ask how Trunks would deal with Moro lol. As far as I know nothing prevents him for being a problem in that world.

Trunks can just ask Beerus to deal with Moro. Trunks isn't the type of guy who fights for fun, and Beerus will feel like he has a debt to repay because Trunks warned him about Black and Zamasu trying to kill him.

This obviously wasn't an option with Majin Buu since Beerus was asleep back then.

[ankokudaishogun]

The ending is absurdist humor

there is absolutely nothing absurdist in the ending

[JulieYBM]

The ending is absurdist humor

there is absolutely nothing absurdist in the ending

"Gay twink hates hot monkey man so much he steals his body to become him, and then when that doesn't work he merges with the universe to destroy everything only to be thrawted by toddlers" is absurd as hell lol

Oh my God, Zamasu is Sideshow Bob!

[SupremeKai25]

The ending is absurdist humor

there is absolutely nothing absurdist in the ending

"Gay twink hates hot monkey man so much he steals his body to become him, and then when that doesn't work he merges with the universe to destroy everything only to be thrawted by toddlers" is absurd as hell lol

Oh my God, Zamasu is Sideshow Bob!

It's in line with Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball main villains always have a secret trick up their sleeve, even when it seems like they have exhausted all their weapons. There is always a point in which it seems that the protagonist is winning, only for the villain to unveil a deadly final form that complicates everything.

Frieza with his 100% full power mode, Super Perfect Cell (the BIGGEST asspull in existence), Kid Buu (the most primal and dangerous form of Buu, regardless of power levels), Moro merging with the planet (I honestly think Toyotaro got inspired by Anime Infinite Zamasu for that), all the bullshit with Gas and Black Frieza supplanting Granolah as the antagonist.

Infinite Zamasu is in line with that pedigree.

And Yeah, an Immortal character was able to accomplish absurd things... but the entire first half of Z was about averting two main villains from wishing for immortality. The FT arc starts with the heroes already having failed from averting the villain from gaining immortality. It's as if they lost against Vegeta and Frieza, and that would be disastrous.

[super michael]

Future Trunks and Future Mai could have simply stayed in the present time line, instead having Gods take them to a alternate time line which creates a new alternate time ring.

Creating a new alternate time line, doesn't mean their world returns. Instead they create a new time line that nearly every Z fighters are dead. So what is the point of creating a new time line, which is worse than the present time line.

[SupremeKai25]

Future Trunks and Future Mai could have simply stayed in the present time line, instead having Gods take them to a alternate time line which creates a new alternate time ring.

Except, No, they couldn't.

Time travel is a sin and a taboo even amongst the Gods. Beerus would never tolerate two time-travelers staying forever in a timeline where they don't belong. Especially since he is afraid that Zeno will erase everything if he learns about time travel.

This is why I always laugh when people suggest that Trunks should have stayed for the Tournament of Power. Bro would have gotten himself erased instantly as soon as the Grand Priest and Zeno saw him.

I don't think people understand that time travel is a crime, even for the Gods themselves. You don't just live out your days in a timeline where you don't belong, that's not how it works.

Creating a new alternate time line, doesn't mean their world returns. Instead they create a new time line that nearly every Z fighters are dead.

That's the timeline at the end of the Android saga anyway??

If Trunks only "wins" if he resurrect all the people killed by the Androids, he already lost in Z.

Trunks literally just restored his timeline to the point after the Androids, Cell, and Majin Buu were dealt with, but before Black and Zamasu launched their attack, so that he can warn Beerus about the duo and prevent the attack from happening at all. So that they can finally leave in peace, without the Androids/Cell/Buu/Black and Zamasu tormenting them.

[super michael]

Except, No, they couldn't.

Time travel is a sin and a taboo even amongst the Gods. Beerus would never tolerate two time-travelers staying forever in a timeline where they don't belong. Especially since he is afraid that Zeno will erase everything if he learns about time travel.

Why couldn't they stay in the present time line? By that logic they don't belong in the new alternate time line, since there is already a Future Trunks and Future Mai.

The Future Trunks and Future Mai from the erased time line would still count as time travelers in the new alternate time line and staying in the present time line.

Zeno and Future Zeno doesn't seem to mind that they did time travel, that is why there are two Zeno in the present time line. Future Zeno traveled in time with Goku.

That's the timeline at the end of the Android saga anyway??

If Trunks only "wins" if he resurrect all the people killed by the Androids, he already lost in Z.

Trunks literally just restored his timeline to the point after the Androids, Cell, and Majin Buu were dealt with, but before Black and Zamasu launched their attack, so that he can warn Beerus about the duo and prevent the attack from happening at all. So that they can finally leave in peace, without the Androids/Cell/Buu/Black and Zamasu.

I believe the Gods was taking Future Mai and Future Trunks to before Future Dabura and Future Babidi attacks the earth. That way Future Beerus and Future Kaioshin doesn't die. However that doesn't restore that dead Z fighters like Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, etc.

The perfect time line is the present time line, there is no need to create a new time line when that doesn't restore the time line that they lost. If it was their original time line restored that would be a different story, then there wouldn't be double Future Trunks and Future Mai.

[SupremeKai25]

Why couldn't they stay in the present time line? By that logic they don't belong in the new alternate time line, since there is already a Future Trunks and Future Mai.

Because it's still their timeline. Those versions of Trunks and Mai are identical to them, because it's their timeline. The version of Trunks in the "main" timeline is a kid compared to Future Trunks, because that's not his timeline. He doesn't belong there.

Zeno and Future Zeno doesn't seem to mind that they did time travel, that is why there are two Zeno in the present time line. Future Zeno traveled in time with Goku.

Well, Yeah, he's the king of everything and a toddler, of course rules don't apply to him. But there are rules, and time travel is a crime, even the Gods see it as a taboo. Beerus himself states that he cannot simply time-travel to erase Black and Zamasu, and the only Gods who are ever allowed to use time travel are the Supreme Kais with the Time Rings, and they are only allowed to go to the Future. The past is off-limits to everyone, even Gods.

Of course, this makes Trunks' actions all the more damning from the Gods' perspective, because not only he is a mortal who abused time travel, he also went to the past. Gowasu himself calls him a fool.

I'll put this as simply as I can. Future Trunks made a big, big mess, and Beerus, ever a pragmatic individual, wanted him to be somebody else's problem.

[tonysoprano300]

I wont say definitively that DB is a story where the heroes must always win, when I watched the saiyan arc and saw everyone get butchered one by One as they awaited Goku’s return; it was legitimately devastating. The arc ended with the defeat of Vegeta but it came at the cost of losing series regulars in brutal fashion. At the time, we didn’t really know where DB was heading and maybe it was reasonable to expect them to come back at some point but it wasn’t a guarantee.

I think my problem with the ending of Zamasu is that nobody cares, nobody shows regret or even attempts to grieve the loss of that timeline. If its supposed to be a story about failure , then it fails at it(pun intended) because none of the characters ever process it in that way. It may be one of the most jarring and absurd endings I've ever seen. Even for DB standards, its ridiculous

[Grimlock]

I think my problem with the ending of Zamasu is that nobody cares, nobody shows regret or even attempts to grieve the loss of that timeline.

Goku stares at Trunks (menacingly) while Trunks and Mai look at the ground. So for two seconds or less, there is an attempt to grieve... from two people... which I guess one could argue it's more than what that timeline deserves, given everything that has happened to it.

I would also add that we have been witnessing lately Dragon Ball Super getting praised for "being true" to what Dragon Ball is, which is "not taking itself seriously", "not being edgy like Cell saga" and whatnot. So I don't understand why people would want this melodrama. Dragon Ball is supposed to be fun, so if Trunks lost his world, the appropriate response is exactly what we saw; stare at the ground for two seconds and move on... Right?

[SupremeKai25]

I would also add that we have been witnessing lately Dragon Ball Super getting praised for "being true" to what Dragon Ball is, which is "not taking itself seriously", "not being edgy like Cell saga" and whatnot. So I don't understand why people would want this melodrama. Dragon Ball is supposed to be fun, so if Trunks lost his world, the appropriate response is exactly what we saw; stare at the ground for two seconds and move on... Right?

Facts.

It's also worth pointing out that that scene you linked takes place BEFORE Trunks' timeline is restored with the help of Whis.

So the fact that Trunks didn't really lose his world just makes the ending all the better.

[Majin Buu]

As a side note, this arc was NECESSARY to complete Trunks' story. As a matter of fact, Trunks' story in DBZ was left unfinished because it's never shown how Trunks could have dealt with Majin Buu.

Trunks' story was complete at the end of the Cell arc. At that point there's nothing left about his story that requires us to see how he dealt with Babidi and Dabra. I personally never gave that matter any thought because Z never gave me a reason to.

It's fine if you wanted to see that, and it's fun to speculate on how the Buu arc played out in his world; but your claim that we needed to see that to fill some hole in his story feels like a flimsy, after the fact justification for the arc's existence.

Speaking of speculation: Future Trunks' popularity is likely the actual reason this arc exists.

[JulieYBM]

Oh, this was absolutely all about riding the Future Trunks popularity train. Adding a new Gokuuface also helps sell the arc.

[tonysoprano300]

I think my problem with the ending of Zamasu is that nobody cares, nobody shows regret or even attempts to grieve the loss of that timeline.

Goku stares at Trunks (menacingly) while Trunks and Mai look at the ground. So for two seconds or less, there is an attempt to grieve... from two people... which I guess one could argue it's more than what that timeline deserves, given everything that has happened to it.

I would also add that we have been witnessing lately Dragon Ball Super getting praised for "being true" to what Dragon Ball is, which is "not taking itself seriously", "not being edgy like Cell saga" and whatnot. So I don't understand why people would want this melodrama. Dragon Ball is supposed to be fun, so if Trunks lost his world, the appropriate response is exactly what we saw; stare at the ground for two seconds and move on... Right?

IIRC, the manga doesn’t even have that, They move on almost instantaneously. Ill give credit to the Anime because there is at least some screen time dedicated to Trunks grieving and it is legitimately sad.

All I can say is that my understanding of what DB is supposed to be is completely detached from this ending lol

[ZombieVito]

I think my problem with the ending of Zamasu is that nobody cares, nobody shows regret or even attempts to grieve the loss of that timeline. If its supposed to be a story about failure , then it fails at it(pun intended) because none of the characters ever process it in that way. It may be one of the most jarring and absurd endings I've ever seen. Even for DB standards, its ridiculous

Did you miss the last scene with Trunks and Gohan?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHzZ0KhJNjo

[tonysoprano300]

I think my problem with the ending of Zamasu is that nobody cares, nobody shows regret or even attempts to grieve the loss of that timeline. If its supposed to be a story about failure , then it fails at it(pun intended) because none of the characters ever process it in that way. It may be one of the most jarring and absurd endings I've ever seen. Even for DB standards, its ridiculous

Did you miss the last scene with Trunks and Gohan?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHzZ0KhJNjo

I did give that credit in my previous comment, but I think the overall point still stands. None of the characters come out with a new insight on life that stays with them going forward. Goku doesn’t care, Vegeta doesn’t care, Mai doesn’t care and even trunks only mourns for like 30 seconds. You don’t get the sense that any of the characters have actually changed in a meaningful way