Unpopular DB opinions

[AliTheZombie13]

I can't stand all the creepy shit with Pan and the transmisogynistic shit with Trunks-in-a-dress, so I really don't like the beginning of Dragon Ball GT. I think there's some solid ideas in the other multi-parters, but I really do find that the series doesn't really take their premises anywhere. It's like the series is at war with itself to be both Toriyama-esque empty and also expand on deeper ideas.

I don't condone all that shit either, though I'm used to viewing Classic Dragon Ball through the lenses of a time far gone. It wasn't the first time Dragon Ball was being creepy and, if Super is anything to go by, it wasn't going to be the last. I do wish they stopped with it now, though.

[Majin Buu]

Eyup. The Black Star saga was actually enjoyable and I will forever die on this hill, reminds me a lot of Digimon Adventure and Sailor Moon. I don't understand how someone can go "But it's too childish and unserious for Dragon Ball" when things like the Dr. Slump crossovers and the Ginyu Force exist.

For me personally, the issue with that arc isn't that it's unserious (I love me some unserious Dragon Ball after all), it's that it's boring. I was literally falling asleep the first time I watched these episodes because nothing was hooking me in. It felt like nothing was happening despite stuff actually happening.

Super #17 and the Evil Dragons are the actual "WTF is this writing?!" arcs of GT.

Agree on Super 17 being shit (I've been somewhat warming up to the Evil Dragons). Black Star's only crime is being boring, Super 17 is nonsensically bad, and not in any way that would make it a fun or at least interesting watch.

[JulieYBM]

I can't stand all the creepy shit with Pan and the transmisogynistic shit with Trunks-in-a-dress, so I really don't like the beginning of Dragon Ball GT. I think there's some solid ideas in the other multi-parters, but I really do find that the series doesn't really take their premises anywhere. It's like the series is at war with itself to be both Toriyama-esque empty and also expand on deeper ideas.

I don't condone all that shit either, though I'm used to viewing Classic Dragon Ball through the lenses of a time far gone. It wasn't the first time Dragon Ball was being creepy and, if Super is anything to go by, it wasn't going to be the last. I do wish they stopped with it now, though.

I mean, I hated that shit in the 1990s and early 2000s, and I'm sure some poor bitch hated that shit in 1984-1985 when the original comic was being serialized and Gokuu was also doing the man-in-a-dress bullshit, so I don't think the excuse of 'product of its time' works. I'm still rolling with the punches by even continuing to read and view the series, but it doesn't mean I should have to not call this shit out and explain why it really ruins my ability to enjoy it—or take it serious as art.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I can't stand all the creepy shit with Pan and the transmisogynistic shit with Trunks-in-a-dress, so I really don't like the beginning of Dragon Ball GT. I think there's some solid ideas in the other multi-parters, but I really do find that the series doesn't really take their premises anywhere. It's like the series is at war with itself to be both Toriyama-esque empty and also expand on deeper ideas.

I don't condone all that shit either, though I'm used to viewing Classic Dragon Ball through the lenses of a time far gone. It wasn't the first time Dragon Ball was being creepy and, if Super is anything to go by, it wasn't going to be the last. I do wish they stopped with it now, though.

I mean, I hated that shit in the 1990s and early 2000s, and I'm sure some poor bitch hated that shit in 1984-1985 when the original comic was being serialized and Gokuu was also doing the man-in-a-dress bullshit, so I don't think the excuse of 'product of its time' works. I'm still rolling with the punches by even continuing to read and view the series, but it doesn't mean I should have to not call this shit out and explain why it really ruins my ability to enjoy it—or take it serious as art.

I know this is TERRIBILE and is probably "Man-splaining" an actual trans woman but the Gokuu in a dress was a cute, if it is the "Chibi Goku wearing a dress" from the first series ending. "Boys can wear dresses too" fun thing. One of few the things that WERENT awful shit spewed at women. In fact I was sad that this was probably the reason the version of Romantic Ageru Yo the Latin American dub uses another version of it to avoid the cute kid in a dress thing.

[AliTheZombie13]

Agree on Super 17 being shit (I've been somewhat warming up to the Evil Dragons). Black Star's only crime is being boring, Super 17 is nonsensically bad, and not in any way that would make it a fun or at least interesting watch.

Different strokes for different people. I like slow beginnings like Black Star's because I get to know the characters and understand what they're fighting for, for things to build up naturally before everything goes to Hell. It works great in shows like Sailor Moon, Digimon and Super Sentai, so I don't see why they shouldn't work for Dragon Ball.

I'll toss a few examples here: Pan showing that she cares for the suffering of random people, whereas Goku and Trunks can't give a rat's ass, she usually rallies the populations of these planets into rebelling against their oppressors. But: She's still a brat. She doesn't see Giru as a living being and constantly berates her Grandpa for embarrassing her.

All of this takes on a new meaning as she's begging Giru to forgive her, when she's attacked by her relatives and wonders if she's been such a bad girl, or when she's begging her Grandpa to regain his reason. All of this works wonders because I have seen her grown in these first 22 episodes. I doubt it would've been as effective if Pan remained the same always happy-go-lucky character she is in EoZ/Super Hero.

I think they're pŕetty engaging and fun for what they are.

I mean, I hated that shit in the 1990s and early 2000s, and I'm sure some poor bitch hated that shit in 1984-1985 when the original comic was being serialized and Gokuu was also doing the man-in-a-dress bullshit, so I don't think the excuse of 'product of its time' works. I'm still rolling with the punches by even continuing to read and view the series, but it doesn't mean I should have to not call this shit out and explain why it really ruins my ability to enjoy it—or take it serious as art.

Absolutely, do call it out whenever you have the chance. It doesn't affect me that much personally, but it is a problem that should've been addressed then and it absolutely should be addressed now.

[JulieYBM]

I know this is TERRIBILE and is probably "Man-splaining" an actual trans woman but the Gokuu in a dress was a cute, if it is the "Chibi Goku wearing a dress" from the first series ending. "Boys can wear dresses too" fun thing. One of few the things that WERENT awful shit spewed at women. In fact I was sad that this was probably the reason the version of Romantic Ageru Yo the Latin American dub uses another version of it to avoid the cute kid in a dress thing.

You're missing the forest for the trees there. An entire episode of 1984 animated series is dedicated to "Hahah, boy's acting like girls is funny because being a girl is bad!"

Yeah story, I think all those times I got called a faggot growing up delivered that message just perfectly fine on its own.

[MasenkoHA]

. In fact I was sad that this was probably the reason the version of Romantic Ageru Yo the Latin American dub uses another version of it to avoid the cute kid in a dress thing.

They probably used that ending for the same reason Funimstion also only used the 2nd ending and the first opening: That was the only text less version Toei gave them to use

I can't speak to Latin America culture, but USA conservatives getting pearl clutchy about AMAB in women's clothing is stupidly recent.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I know this is TERRIBILE and is probably "Man-splaining" an actual trans woman but the Gokuu in a dress was a cute, if it is the "Chibi Goku wearing a dress" from the first series ending. "Boys can wear dresses too" fun thing. One of few the things that WERENT awful shit spewed at women. In fact I was sad that this was probably the reason the version of Romantic Ageru Yo the Latin American dub uses another version of it to avoid the cute kid in a dress thing.

You're missing the forest for the trees there. An entire episode of 1984 animated series is dedicated to "Hahah, boy's acting like girls is funny because being a girl is bad!"

Yeah story, I think all those times I got called a faggot growing up delivered that message just perfectly fine on its own.

I didnt. I just forgot about that episode and and now I wish it I could forget it again. THAT episode is definitely awful. Romantic Ageru Yo is cute and has Bulma wear a Tuxedo. That's cute.

[JulieYBM]

. In fact I was sad that this was probably the reason the version of Romantic Ageru Yo the Latin American dub uses another version of it to avoid the cute kid in a dress thing.

They probably used that ending for the same reason Funimstion also only used the 2nd ending and the first opening: That was the only text less version Toei gave them to use

I can't speak to Latin America culture, but USA conservatives getting pearl clutchy about AMAB in women's clothing is stupidly recent.

US Conversatives have transitioned from "haha, f*ggots are funny, yeah? Also, after I sleep with you I'm going to k*ll you!" to "THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN YOU'RE CONFUSING THEM WITH YOUR DECEPTIVELY ALLURING BODIES AND HAPPY TRANSITIONS! Also, after I sleep with you I'm going to k*ll you" so yeah, there's been a lot more loud "I'm not gay, I'm not gay, please don't write in the newspaper that I asked a tr*nny fuck me!"

It's also so manufactured. Conservatives lost on same-gender marriage, so now they're going after the trans people and using the same rhetoric. "The gays are going to make your kids gay! Bisexual men and trans women are going to kill your precious white daughters with AIDS!" was the shit they were saying when I was growing up. Now it's all, "The Secret Trans Agenda is going to make all your white kids want to irreversably alter their bodies with things like puberty blocks that are totally safe and are given to cis kids!"

But yeah, I feel like while things in US productions have gotten a little better about not being blatantly transphobic or queerphobic we're still always on the edge of backsliding. I really do wish Dragon Ball was handled with a more progressive touch like PreCure is.

Anyway, I didn't mean to make a big whole thing about this. I've made my point already lol

[jjgp1112]

Having recently rewatched the Black Star arc...that shit is absolutely weak sauce aside from literally the last two episodes. They took a great concept and did it in the most dull way imaginable, none of the gravitas you'd expect aside from, again, the last two episodes. And the logic doesn't really make sense because they used the Dragon Balls for good causes and kept them out of the hands of people who wanted them for nefarious means! The whole theme is just arbitrary and contrived, like most of GT's plot setups.

[Majin Buu]

Different strokes for different people. I like slow beginnings like Black Star's because I get to know the characters and understand what they're fighting for, for things to build up naturally before everything goes to Hell. It works great in shows like Sailor Moon, Digimon and Super Sentai, so I don't see why they shouldn't work for Dragon Ball.

Slow beginnings are fine when the material is engaging, but none of the Black Star material is particularly engaging so it feels like nothing is happening despite the Dragon Ball search moving the plot forward.

I'll toss a few examples here: Pan showing that she cares for the suffering of random people, whereas Goku and Trunks can't give a rat's ass, she usually rallies the populations of these planets into rebelling against their oppressors. But: She's still a brat. She doesn't see Giru as a living being and constantly berates her Grandpa for embarrassing her.

You make that material sound more interesting than I ever found it. It all just fell flat for me because the show failed to give me a reason to care about any of it. I don't dislike Pan, but her being disproportionally mean to Giru doesn't do anything to make her endearing so it's hard to care when she does finally decide to be nicer to him- because she never had much of a reason to be mean to him in the first place. That's how her character development in general felt to me: It's there, but the show failed to give me a reason to care about it because of how poorly executed it was.

I really do wish Dragon Ball was handled with a more progressive touch like PreCure is.

Agreed. At its worst, the problematic stuff in Dragon Ball tends to drag down the rest of the material if you're someone with any kind of social conscience. It's the thing that makes Pre-Z Dragon Ball hard to recommend to newcomers.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

My biggest problem with the Black star Dragon Ball arc is how forced the tension is.

Aside from the fact we are expected to believe Kami, Mr Popo and the Kais conveniently forgot about the Black star Dragon Balls up until that point why does the Earth explode if they're not brought back together within a year? Also how come Mr Popo never told Dende this was such a huge risk? Surely that's vital information that should have been passed on to the new guardian of the Earth, especially because the balls were just lying around in the heavenly realm.

I know Dragon Ball has never went out of its way to explain things, but it just felt like that consequence of their useage was just thrown in to raise the stakes. Even when they are brought back together the Earth explodes a year from the previous time they were used. Surely when the balls were reunited the after effects would be reset and it should be a year from Baby's wish.

GT gets good during the Baby arc for me, and to a lesser extent the Evil Dragons arc.

[AliTheZombie13]

You make that material sound more interesting than I ever found it. It all just fell flat for me because the show failed to give me a reason to care about any of it. I don't dislike Pan, but her being disproportionally mean to Giru doesn't do anything to make her endearing so it's hard to care when she does finally decide to be nicer to him- because she never had much of a reason to be mean to him in the first place. That's how her character development in general felt to me: It's there, but the show failed to give me a reason to care about it because of how poorly executed it was.

I mean, Giru ate the Dragon Radar, put their mission and the Earth in risk, started eating parts of their spaceship and endangering the crew, and spends the entire time calling her "Dangerous" even when it's not warranted, like when she tells Goku not to take off his clothes. This is also on top of Factor #1: She doesn't see Giru as a living being, she sees him as nothing but a soulless machine. Her biggest gripe with Giru is there since Episode #5, so it wasn't that hard for me to understand why she was acting like that.

I'm not saying it's executed all that great, but it's there.

My biggest problem with the Black star Dragon Ball arc is how forced the tension is.

I never thought there was supposed to be any tension. And if there was, it was minimal. Right from Episode #2, we have a conversation justifying the minimal stakes and foreshadowing what eventually happens at the end:

Goku: "Do we really have to go? It's not a big deal, let's just gather the Earth Dragon Balls and relocate to another planet."
Videl: "Maybe we should keep that as a backup plan."
Chichi: "That's right, no one would like to abandon their homes."

The story treats it as a minor inconvenience than an actual threat, so I don't really have a problem with it.

[jjgp1112]

My biggest problem with the Black star Dragon Ball arc is how forced the tension is.

Aside from the fact we are expected to believe Kami, Mr Popo and the Kais conveniently forgot about the Black star Dragon Balls up until that point why does the Earth explode if they're not brought back together within a year? Also how come Mr Popo never told Dende this was such a huge risk? Surely that's vital information that should have been passed on to the new guardian of the Earth, especially because the balls were just lying around in the heavenly realm.

I know Dragon Ball has never went out of its way to explain things, but it just felt like that consequence of their useage was just thrown in to raise the stakes. Even when they are brought back together the Earth explodes a year from the previous time they were used. Surely when the balls were reunited the after effects would be reset and it should be a year from Baby's wish.

GT gets good during the Baby arc for me, and to a lesser extent the Evil Dragons arc.

Yeah, GT had so many nonsensical reasons for conflict that Toriyama's Dragon Ball only really descended into during the Buu saga.

[MasenkoHA]

Like everything else in GT I think the black star dragon balls had a cool idea (a dragon ball hunt across the galaxy with asburdly high stakes) executed horribly. The actual arc is pretty sloggish and the lore behind them doesn't make much sense. If the Nameless Namekian created these dragon balla, how come Piccolo Daimao (who should remember everything before the split) didn't know what dragon balls were? Why would the Nameless Namekian create dragon balls that blow up the planet they're wished on if they're not gathered together within a year? He's not supposed to be evil like Piccolo Daimao.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Like everything else in GT I think the black star dragon balls had a cool idea (a dragon ball hunt across the galaxy with asburdly high stakes) executed horribly. The actual arc is pretty sloggish and the lore behind them doesn't make much sense. If the Nameless Namekian created these dragon balla, how come Piccolo Daimao (who should remember everything before the split) didn't know what dragon balls were? Why would the Nameless Namekian create dragon balls that blow up the planet they're wished on if they're not gathered together within a year? He's not supposed to be evil like Piccolo Daimao.

Well, IT WAS said he HAD evil in him that he separated into another being to get rid off...

[MasenkoHA]

Like everything else in GT I think the black star dragon balls had a cool idea (a dragon ball hunt across the galaxy with asburdly high stakes) executed horribly. The actual arc is pretty sloggish and the lore behind them doesn't make much sense. If the Nameless Namekian created these dragon balla, how come Piccolo Daimao (who should remember everything before the split) didn't know what dragon balls were? Why would the Nameless Namekian create dragon balls that blow up the planet they're wished on if they're not gathered together within a year? He's not supposed to be evil like Piccolo Daimao.

Well, IT WAS said he HAD evil in him that he separated into another being to get rid off...

Right...he had evil in him. He himself wasn't evil and wouldn't have created dragon balls that blow up planets after a time limit

[AliTheZombie13]

Eh, I can buy that these Dragon Balls were a failed prototype that he kept hidden away for everyone's sake.

[tonysoprano300]

Even if he was evil, it still doesn’t make sense to create DBs that blow up the planet that they’re used on, Piccolo Daimo wanted to rule the world, not destroy it.

But hey, its whatever I guess. I appreciate that they were trying to have us embark on an actual adventure this time around after the series had been so deeply entrenched in fight&transformations for god knows how long. I can stomach a semi implausible premise if the arc is good enough(The cell arc is beloved by the DB fandom and it had a premise almost as silly) my problem is that this arc just wasn’t that good.

[Scsigs]

GT is genuinely such a waste of time, ngl. Super Saiyan 4 is cool & I like a lot of the ideas, but the execution sucks ass most of the time. Some people have mentioned the logic gaffs too.
Why do the Black Star Dragon Balls exist & why do they operate the way they do? They make no sense in the already-established world of Dragon Ball & they're very clearly something forced into the show to get Goku to be a kid again & get him, Pan, & Trunks on an adventure to get them back.
Why was Android 17 brought back, only to be mind controlled by a doppelganger of himself created by Gero & Miyu in Hell? Because they needed a reason to get the characters to wish people back on the Dragon Balls to start the final arc & they didn't have anyone else to pick from. They'd rather rip off Fusion Reborn & waste 17.
Why did the Dragon Balls fill with negative energy from overuse when that wasn't established beforehand & Toriyama clearly didn't intend that to be a consequence of overusing them? Because they wanted to end the series with Goku flying off on Shenron & that's what they thought of to get him there.

A lot of things in the series are predicated on getting to the next step & they didn't care about it all making sense, being logical, or lining up with past continuity. What they did is A to C storytelling in a lot of cases without caring what B was, or if it was good. GT is a very mixed bag with its best arc being its second because it was a serialized narrative with clearly a good amount of time & passion for the material they were writing being poured into it. It's not flawless, but it's a lot better than the other 3 arcs surrounding it.