A rebuttal to the defense of the Zamasu arc ending

[Grimlock]

All I can say is that my understanding of what DB is supposed to be is completely detached from this ending lol

You and me both, but I guess it is what it is. What I can't ever accept is ending this saga with Trunks going to live in a timeline where there's already a Trunks there. There were so many better options to choose from and they went with the worst of them all.

[Jack Bz]

I wouldn't have a problem with it at all if Trunks was on the U7 team in the next arc, and then his Universe came back as a side effect of 17's wish.

I don't have a problem with using Zeno to save the day, especially as a set up to the next arc. Definitely elevates the danger. But yeah it's too dark for me to enjoy that Trunks's whole timeline is gone and he just makes a new one and has to pretend it's all gravy. It's an existential nightmare.

[ZombieVito]

I wouldn't have a problem with it at all if Trunks was on the U7 team in the next arc, and then his Universe came back as a side effect of 17's wish.

But that would bring Infinite Zamasu back.

[SupremeKai25]

Why do people say that Trunks should have wished back his timeline? Pretty much everyone except 30 people living in a ruined subway were dead in that timeline, the entire planet was laid to waste.

Black and Zamasu caused mass-destruction on a scale beyond anything the Androids did. There were still some humans left (like 30 people living in a subway) only because Black and Zamasu are sadist who wanted to have some fun. There's no rebuilding from that.

I can't see why Trunks would care about his wrecked, shit-hole of a timeline. Better to hit the reset button and start over.

[The Monkey King]

Why do people say that Trunks should have wished back his timeline? Pretty much everyone except 30 people living in a ruined subway were dead in that timeline, the entire planet was laid to waste.

He could've had Goku help him find New Namek in his timeline and that problem would've been solved.

I know you love your precious Zamasu Arc but you could try to use your imagination a little.

I can't see why Trunks would care about his wrecked, shit-hole of a timeline.

Because that's still his home that he was entrusted to defend...

Honestly if you're going to act this obtuse and media illiterate on purpose, please don't reply to me. Your attempt at "trolling" is infantile.

But that would bring Infinite Zamasu back.

Yeah but what if it just didn't. What if Future Trunks won and as a token of good will for restoring all the universes the GP got rid of Infinite Zamasu. Let that be destroying him, sealing him away or whatever.

[SupremeKai25]

Why do people say that Trunks should have wished back his timeline? Pretty much everyone except 30 people living in a ruined subway were dead in that timeline, the entire planet was laid to waste.

He could've had Goku help him find New Namek in his timeline and that problem would've been solved.

At no point in DBZ or DBS is New Namek ever mentioned within the context of Future Trunks' storyline, no one ever even alludes to it, let alone suggests it. Between your imagination and authorial intent, I'll stick with authorial intent. Quite clearly, for some reason, New Namek was unavailable and that is the end of it.

Not sure why people keep bringing up New Namek when the story clearly never presents this as an option. But since you like using imagination, you just have to imagine that Black and Zamasu took a trip to New Namek before going to Earth.

Because that's still his home that he was entrusted to defend...

Doesn't matter. Everything was wrecked and the vast majority of humans were killed, at that point you just move out.

As a matter of fact, in the Manga there aren't even any survivors left. Black and Zamasu kill literally everyone except for Trunks and Mai before the final battle. So Trunks and Mai would literally be left to repopulate the Earth by themselves lol.

What if Future Trunks won and as a token of good will for restoring all the universes the GP got rid of Infinite Zamasu.

Except, this would never happen, because Grand Zeno hates time-travel, so he would hate the fact that Trunks is a time-traveler.

[The Monkey King]

At no point in DBZ or DBS is New Namek ever mentioned within the context of Future Trunks' storyline, no one ever even alludes to it, let alone suggests it.

That just makes it a perfect time to address the elephant in the room.

For decades fans have always pondered about the New Namekian Dragon Ball's and Trunks' shitty timeline.

Toriyama could've payed that off and rewarded Future Trunks after all the suffering he's endured. Such a wish could even revive some of the Future Z-fighters.

Like this piece of art here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSiWubnTD0I

you just have to imagine that Black and Zamasu took a trip to New Namek before going to Earth.

Why would I do that when I'm suggesting ways to avoid the shitty ending?

Doesn't matter. Everything was wrecked and the vast majority of humans were killed, at that point you just move out..

You claim to respect "authorial intent" but refuse to accept that Trunks cares for his timeline no matter how hard he has to fight for what's left of it?

Yeah okay buddy, really convenient standards you have there.

As a matter of fact, in the Manga there aren't even any survivors left. Black and Zamasu kill literally everyone except for Trunks and Mai before the final battle. So Trunks and Mai would literally be left to repopulate the Earth by themselves lol.

That's why they go to New Namek with Goku and wish for the damage and lives lost to be restored

Except, this would never happen, because Grand Zeno hates time-travel, so he would hate the fact that Trunks is a time-traveler.

The GP doesn't hate Future Zeno and he's a time traveler.
it would just be a gesture of good will because Trunks restored the universes, Zeno destroyed his timeline and it can even come with a condition that Trunks is banned from time travel forever.

But again I would just avoid destroying Trunks' entire timeline in the first place because it was a dumb idea to begin with.

[SupremeKai25]

Toriyama could've payed that off and rewarded Future Trunks after all the suffering he's endured. Such a wish could even revive some of the Future Z-fighters.

I find this claim specifically very funny, because why is Future Trunks owed anything? He's not a real person, he's just a character in a story, he's not "owed" anything.

Why are we acting like characters should be "rewarded", as if tragic characters don't exist.

Why would I do that when I'm suggesting ways to avoid the shitty ending?

Because it answers your question as to what happened to New Namek.

What happened to it? Black and Zamasu destroyed the Namekians on their way to Earth. Seems rather plausible and logical, especially considering Black's claim that they already destroyed a large number of mortal civilizations before coming to Earth, and their general hate for mortals using Divine tools.

You claim to respect "authorial intent" but refuse to accept that Trunks cares for his timeline no matter how hard he has to fight for what's left of it?

Except, there was literally NOTHING left of it.

That's why they go to New Namek with Goku and wish for the damage and lives lost to be restored

Some problems with this claim:

1) Black and Zamasu destroyed the Super Dragon Balls, and since all other Dragon Balls are derivatives created from pieces of the original, that might have affected them in some way.

2) Goku doesn't know the exact coordinates of New Namek without asking King Kai for informations, and Black and Zamasu had total control over the Earth and could instantly feel when Goku time-travelled, so not only the process of finding and travelling to New Namek would be long, Black and Zamasu would most likely interfere.

Ultimately, looking for the Namekian dragon balls was not an option in the Story.

The GP doesn't hate Future Zeno and he's a time traveler.
it would just be a gesture of good will because Trunks restored the universes, Zeno destroyed his timeline and it can even come with a condition that Trunks is banned from time travel forever.

Rules don't apply to Zeno. Time travel is a taboo even amongst the Gods, I seriously doubt Beerus would even let Trunks participate in the Tournament of Power. He'd genuinely prefer Frieza to Trunks.

Beerus is very prideful, he didn't destroy Moro because he was afraid the other GoDs would mock him for arriving late at the Grand Priest's meeting. I have an impossible time believing that Beerus would let Trunks participate at the tournament and outright admit that he turned a blind eye to time-travel. That would pretty much destroy his reputation and cause him to run into big troubles with the boss.

Beerus is the same guy who wanted to destroy the Earth because Buu ate his pudding btw. He's not a good guy, nor does he like mortals. Don't forget that.

[Jack Bz]

I can't see why Trunks would care about his wrecked, shit-hole of a timeline. Better to hit the reset button and start over.

You can't be serious dude. He was fighting to the death to save his timeline. He forged a sword of hope from the few people left to preserve it. Look at the words he's actually saying as he uses a weapon given to him by the remaining humans:



The idea that he just wouldn't care about what he was fighting to protect is just weird. Like surely you can't believe Trunks didn't care about his timeline

[SupremeKai25]

I can't see why Trunks would care about his wrecked, shit-hole of a timeline. Better to hit the reset button and start over.

You can't be serious dude. He was fighting to the death to save his timeline. He forged a sword of hope from the few people left to preserve it. Look at the words he's actually saying as he uses a weapon given to him by the remaining humans:



The idea that he just wouldn't care about what he was fighting to protect is just weird. Like surely you can't believe Trunks didn't care about his timeline

He cared about his timeline and fought for it, and he still lost, because his opponent was immortal.

Reminder that half of DBZ is about preventing the main villain from attaining immortality, and that Majin Buu required the entirety of the Universe to finally be put down, and he wasn't even immortal.

Since he lost everything as his timeline was literally erased from existence (I linked the scan showing that nothing is left of that timeline), Trunks agreed to restore the original version of his timeline to a point before Black and Zamasu launched their attack, so that he can start over and fix everything.

Not sure what's so shocking here. Why would Trunks STILL care about that specific exact version of his timeline when Zeno deleted everything in it?

[The Monkey King]

I find this claim specifically very funny, because why is Future Trunks owed anything? He's not a real person, he's just a character in a story, he's not "owed" anything.

Having a satisfying ending for the good guy protagonist is a staple of a light-hearted series like Dragon Ball.
It gives the audience a feelgood satisfying feeling like when he defeated the Androids in his timeline.

The ending he got in the Goku Black arc did not do this, hence why most people (without weird agendas like you) hate the ending.

Why are we acting like characters should be "rewarded", as if tragic characters don't exist.

Funny how you're the same guy who won't stop whining about how the Cell arc is "edgy" but when it comes to your boyfriend Zamasu and his arc all of your "standards" go out the window.

Anyway for a series like Dragon Ball tragic characters exist like Z-Bardock but it's fitting because he's not a good guy. He doesn't deserve a happy ending.

Because it answers your question as to what happened to New Namek.

Why would your head canon yapping matter to me?

Except, there was literally NOTHING left of it.

That's why his timeline shouldn't have been destroyed in the first place, because the ending is shit.

The idea that he just wouldn't care about what he was fighting to protect is just weird. Like surely you can't believe Trunks didn't care about his timeline

Don't bother with him lmao, he'll perform whatever mental gymnastics he needs to protect his precious Zamasu arc

[Kaboom]

The Monkey King, while your actual underlying points are certainly valid (all of them), I feel I should give you a friendly reminder that you've been warned (and even temp-banned) several times in the past for being unnecessarily rude towards other members...

[JulieYBM]

Damn, I keep thinking back to how cool that Genki sword is. I wish the production team had had more time for this arc, because that shit could hit so hard if the staff weren't constantly trying to do things on zero time and resources.

I really think that this arc would work best as a 2.5 hour film remake. It's a shame that a kids movie like this would likely never get to be that long, though.

[SupremeKai25]

I would defend the ending of this arc simply by pointing out that it was clearly foreshadowed.

In fiction, we should always appreciate when plot developments are set-up and foreshadowed, regardless of whether these developments are "good" or "bad" for a certain character.

This ending had ton of foreshadowing. As a matter of fact, we are told in the first episode of the arc that Grand Zeno erased 6 universes out of a whim one day. Then in episode 55 we are told that Grand Zeno despises time-travel and could erase the entire existence if he got angry. That is the same episode where Zeno gives Goku a special button that can summon the king to him when required. Then in episode 64 the first thing Fused Zamasu says is "My form is justice and my form is the world"; Fused Zamasu's immortal soul merged with the Cosmos and attempted to become his own twisted version of "justice" made manifest.

To be fair, people were predicting that Zeno would get involved long before the finale aired. Anyone else remembers these old thumbnails? Cuz I do.




Not enough people appreciate the set-up for this ending. It didn't just come out of nowhere. It was foreshadowed that Zeno would be involved somehow and it was foreshadowed that Zamasu's ultimate ambition was to become the world and justice itself.

And sure, people can complain that Zeno erasing everything was "overkill", but ultimately there needed to be pay-off for all the warnings of Zeno's power and unpredictable nature, and also the stakes needed to be set for the Tournament of Power. (which is why this ending is brought up during the Tournament by the characters)

[ZombieVito]

Zeno erasing the timeline is overkill only in the manga. In the anime is an outright necessity.

[SupremeKai25]

Zeno erasing the timeline is overkill only in the manga. In the anime is an outright necessity.

I definitely prefer the Anime rendition of Infinite Zamasu over the Manga. Anime Infinite Zamasu actually looks like an existential threat, an unprecedented threat, while Manga Infinite Zamasu is just Metal Cooler.







Is it safe to say that New Namek was destroyed at this point?

It makes perfect sense to hit the reset button and start over after that.

[ZombieVito]

Zeno erasing the timeline is overkill only in the manga. In the anime is an outright necessity.

I definitely prefer the Anime rendition of Infinite Zamasu over the Manga. Anime Infinite Zamasu actually looks like an existential threat, an unprecedented threat, while Manga Infinite Zamasu is just Metal Cooler.







Is it safe to say that New Namek was destroyed at this point?

It makes perfect sense to hit the reset button and start over after that.

Didn't the Zamasus say they already eliminated all mortals from U7 except from the ones on Earth? The Namekians should be gone.

And yeah, the anime version of Infinite Zamasu is fantastic. I love the fact that even Whis was getting scared by him and he never gets scared by Zeno unlike his manga version. God that version sucks.

[tonysoprano300]

Zeno erasing the timeline is overkill only in the manga. In the anime is an outright necessity.

I definitely prefer the Anime rendition of Infinite Zamasu over the Manga. Anime Infinite Zamasu actually looks like an existential threat, an unprecedented threat, while Manga Infinite Zamasu is just Metal Cooler.







Is it safe to say that New Namek was destroyed at this point?

It makes perfect sense to hit the reset button and start over after that.

Didn't the Zamasus say they already eliminated all mortals from U7 except from the ones on Earth? The Namekians should be gone.

And yeah, the anime version of Infinite Zamasu is fantastic. I love the fact that even Whis was getting scared by him and he never gets scared by Zeno unlike his manga version. God that version sucks.

I believe that was stated in the Manga, I don’t think the anime says that.

Its hard to imagine exactly how he managed to do that given that Hit and the pride troopers exist. I'm also at the point where I feel like the angels don’t really do anything, if someone wiping out every being in the multiverse doesn’t constitute as sufficient conditions for them to get involved then why do they even exist? They’re just strong for no reason

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasus say they already eliminated all mortals from U7 except from the ones on Earth? The Namekians should be gone.

The matter is simple, the only confirmed fact is that Black destroyed a large number of mortal civilizations before attacking the Earth (stated by Black himself). We don't know if the Namekians survived, just as we don't know if they were destroyed by Black, so we cannot make definitive assumptions that Goku and Trunks could easily ask the Namekians for help.

Either way, they were certainly killed once Infinite Zamasu became the Cosmos and destroyed everything.

Its hard to imagine exactly how he managed to do that given that Hit and the pride troopers exist. I'm also at the point where I feel like the angels don’t really do anything, if someone wiping out every being in the multiverse doesn’t constitute as sufficient conditions for them to get involved then why do they even exist? They’re just strong for no reason

Toppo probably replaced Belmod as the new Destroyer of his universe 20 years into the future and died with his Supreme Kai. Toppo had already shown such mastery of the Destroyer power, I seriously doubt he had much training left and Belmod was very close to retiring anyway.

As for the Angels, we know that they become "inactive" when their Destroyer God dies. Since they are "inactive", they cannot "act" against Black and Zamasu.

This is why I say that Zamasu is the most underrated and under-appreciated villain in Dragon Ball. He literally outplayed all the deities in the Cosmos, by swiftly killing the Supreme Kais before anyone could do anything about it, and setting off a chain reaction that got rid of the Destroyers and Angels too.

Too bad he didn't account for Zeno. But then again, it's not like Zeno was doing anything to stop him.

[tonysoprano300]

Zamasus say they already eliminated all mortals from U7 except from the ones on Earth? The Namekians should be gone.

The matter is simple, the only confirmed fact is that Black destroyed a large number of mortal civilizations before attacking the Earth (stated by Black himself). We don't know if the Namekians survived, just as we don't know if they were destroyed by Black, so we cannot make definitive assumptions that Goku and Trunks could easily ask the Namekians for help.

Either way, they were certainly killed once Infinite Zamasu became the Cosmos and destroyed everything.

Its hard to imagine exactly how he managed to do that given that Hit and the pride troopers exist. I'm also at the point where I feel like the angels don’t really do anything, if someone wiping out every being in the multiverse doesn’t constitute as sufficient conditions for them to get involved then why do they even exist? They’re just strong for no reason

Toppo probably replaced Belmod as the new Destroyer of his universe 20 years into the future and died with his Supreme Kai. Toppo had already shown such mastery of the Destroyer power, I seriously doubt he had much training left and Belmod was very close to retiring anyway.

As for the Angels, we know that they become "inactive" when their Destroyer God dies. Since they are "inactive", they cannot "act" against Black and Zamasu.

This is why I say that Zamasu is the most underrated and under-appreciated villain in Dragon Ball. He literally outplayed all the deities in the Cosmos, by swiftly killing the Supreme Kais before anyone could do anything about it, and setting off a chain reaction that got rid of the Destroyers and Angels too.

Too bad he didn't account for Zeno. But then again, it's not like Zeno was doing anything to stop him.

But still Grand Priest can’t do anything?