Unpopular DB opinions

[ABED]

In the case of the SSJ4 transformation, it's one of the more interesting transformations. Instead of Goku transforming due to rage, it's the serenity of remembering his family that triggers the transformation.

As for the person who said the Cell saga was rewritten because of Toriyama's editor, that's not what a rewrite is. Also, every writer needs a good editor. And lastly, Toriyama did a great job of making the shifts in the narrative feel organic. If you knew nothing of the behind the scenes stories, you'd think it was all intentional, which is the ideal.

-The Dragon Team doesn’t care about taking precautions regarding Gero

-Dr.Gero is somehow able to produce robots more powerful than the emperor of the universe with no special materials

-Dr.Gero designed Cell in such a way that’s completely ridiculous, forcing him to absorb two other androids more powerful than himself instead of just making those components easily accessible in the lab

That's not bad writing. It's always who they were.

Sure, but lots of this stuff requires a big buy from the audience.

My thought is that he designed Cell to absorb 17 and 18 as a failsafe after they proved difficult to control.

When I say precautions I mean that the Dragon team made zero effort in terms of gathering intel to prepare for the battle, they didn’t try to find Gero’s lab, learn what he looks like, figure out what types of things the Androids could do etc. Its certainly debatable as to whether its in character for them to allow Gero to make these machines but even if we grant that it is, they still made sure to put themselves in the worst position possible going into that fight. They didn’t even scout the area Trunks mentioned ahead of time once in the entirety of the 3 year time skip. All things that probably happened because the plot required them to

Gero already had a failsafe IIRC

We saw so many times before that it's exactly the types of fighters they are, so I think we have our answer to that debate. That said, they probably should've known more about their opponents including what they looked like. The thing I will agree on that may have happened so the plot could commence was Trunks not telling anyone what they looked like, but even then it does feel like "you'll know it when you see it" should suffice. The cyborgs weren't Terminators. They weren't infiltration units. They wanted to make themselves known.

A failsafe but it never hurts to have contingencies. Or as MasenkoHa put it, it was Gero's last "screw you" to 17 and 18.

[jjgp1112]

In the case of the SSJ4 transformation, it's one of the more interesting transformations. Instead of Goku transforming due to rage, it's the serenity of remembering his family that triggers the transformation.

As for the person who said the Cell saga was rewritten because of Toriyama's editor, that's not what a rewrite is. Also, every writer needs a good editor. And lastly, Toriyama did a great job of making the shifts in the narrative feel organic. If you knew nothing of the behind the scenes stories, you'd think it was all intentional, which is the ideal.

-The Dragon Team doesn’t care about taking precautions regarding Gero

-Dr.Gero is somehow able to produce robots more powerful than the emperor of the universe with no special materials

-Dr.Gero designed Cell in such a way that’s completely ridiculous, forcing him to absorb two other androids more powerful than himself instead of just making those components easily accessible in the lab

That's not bad writing. It's always who they were.

Sure, but lots of this stuff requires a big buy from the audience.

My thought is that he designed Cell to absorb 17 and 18 as a failsafe after they proved difficult to control.

When I say precautions I mean that the Dragon team made zero effort in terms of gathering intel to prepare for the battle, they didn’t try to find Gero’s lab, learn what he looks like, figure out what types of things the Androids could do etc. Its certainly debatable as to whether its in character for them to allow Gero to make these machines but even if we grant that it is, they still made sure to put themselves in the worst position possible going into that fight. They didn’t even scout the area Trunks mentioned ahead of time once in the entirety of the 3 year time skip. All things that probably happened because the plot required them to

Gero already had a failsafe IIRC

Why are we doing this again. We've long known this is not how they operate. They're meatheads.

My thought is that he designed Cell to absorb 17 and 18 as a failsafe after they proved difficult to control.

Yeah, i always took as both that, and the absorption element made the creation process easier. This was already an extremely long term project Gero was working on in the background so for efficiency's sake rather than stretching all his resources to make Cell as strong as possible, use these flight-risk Androids as facilitating agents to reach that goal when the time comes.

Remember folks, it was already established that after designing 16, 17, and 18 as infinite energy Androids he went back to the energy absorption model. So Cell was created to be the best of both worlds - an actual life form that can grow like 17 and 18 but also absorbs energy to grow its power. So you could say since he's making this from the ground up with no human base, using the Androids to facilitate its perfection was easier. The entire basis of Cells design was leeching off the power and techniques of others.

I imagine Geros plan was exactly what we saw in the series. Cell lurks around absorbing people in the shadows until he gets strong enough to take the Androids by force. And also, remember - 17 and 18 were still deactivated at this point. Maybe in Gero's mind the ideal scenario is he could just feed them to Cell once he's out of the coccoon.

On top of all this, Gero delegated the entire creation of Cell to a supercomputer. That alone makes it clear that Cell was a failsafe in the event of his demise.

It's best to just go with the flow with these type of things because every hole you can poke has a reasonable answer.

[tonysoprano300]

Doing what again? All I said was that they went into the fight blind when they didn’t have to, thats not against whatever code they’re abiding by

Cell being a fail safe is a little dubious to me because he’s weaker than both 17&18, and he wouldn’t even be born until 20 years after their release. In the original timeline, there wouldn’t be enough human survivors for Cell to absorb so that he could get strong enough to confront them, He had to go back in time for that.Storing the components in 17&18 is also dumb because they’re combat model who could be damaged or destroyed in battle, which is exactly what happens in the timeline Cell came from. He also is going to be born regardless of whether the androids serve Gero or not, he’s programmed to absorb them in order to reach perfection even if the Androids did exactly as Gero commanded. At no point does Cell ever mention that Gero created him as a contingency, and all of the androids seem to know exactly what they were created for. Lastly, once Cell achieves perfection he sets up a tournament with the intention of destroying the Earth after its over. RRA had zero intentions on destroying the world, they wanted to rule it. So the contingency is arguably just as disobedient as the objects they would supposedly be created for.

If Gero created Cell to be a fail safe, then I have to assume he’s just bad at making androids which might actually be true.

[AliTheZombie13]

It's best to just go with the flow with these type of things because every hole you can poke has a reasonable answer... Unless it's GT, in which case, nothing does and we'll be sure to not do that, ever

I'm not saying that to discredit anyone or make you love the things you love any less, I'm just pointing out there's a massive double-standard going on here.

[WittyUsername]

I’ve said this before, but I think the big problem with the whole thing about the Dragon Team being “meatheads” is that they’re not consistent about it. They decide to wait it out for the artificial humans because they want a good fight, but the moment they learn about #17 and #18, they try to stop Dr. Gero from activating them. Likewise, they go out of their way to try and stop Cell from reaching his perfect form. Vegeta is the only character who actually remains consistent in that regard.

I know people try to rationalize this inconsistency, but I think the real explanation for why they behave that way is that Toriyama realized that it would make for a boring story if the characters did nothing but sit on their asses and wait for the villains to get stronger.

[jjgp1112]

It's best to just go with the flow with these type of things because every hole you can poke has a reasonable answer... Unless it's GT, in which case, nothing does and we'll be sure to not do that, ever

I'm not saying that to discredit anyone or make you love the things you love any less, I'm just pointing out there's a massive double-standard going on here.

For me, it's the extent of the inconsitencies and whether I can actually wrap my head around them and more importantly, if they still produce qualty results. Peopple are far more forgiving of logical problems if they end up just liking the story anyway - it's not some "bias" or "Big Z manipulating the minds of the masses," that's just how it is. And not only does a lot of GT make even less sense than DBZ's worst blunders, outside of maybe the Earth portion of the baby Arc and the last 2 epsodes of the series, most of it is horseshit!

For Z, a lot of the logical holes tended to be the finer details...stuff that's more easily overlooked to the point where you probably didn't even notice them at first, and can be headcanoned away. GT on the other hand tended to use a lot of weird, illogical shit as the entire driving point of conflict to the point where I'm already tuning out and not buying what they're selling.

For instance - let's take say, Goku choosing to stay dead because he thinks a villain magnet. That is a bit of a "Huh? Most of the stuff isn't your fault!" but at the same time it's coming off the heels of an arc that was driven by one guy's singular desire to get revenge on him so...yeah, kinda valid, whatever.

But then with GT you have say....every single detail of the Super 17 arc. And the negative energy stuff regarding the Dragon Balls is so arbitrary you're wondering why the hell they would ever punish the characters for doing good things, especially when they're the product of a guy who created them specifically to give people hope in the wake of Piccolo (which now that I'm saying it, there goes another strike against the Black star balls ).

Like, as arbitrary as "People can't be wished back more than once" thing is, the greater concept behind it that Shenron doesn't grant the same wish twice is a serviceable enough deterrant from overuse As is the fact that it doesn't wish people back who died of natural causes; like the Dragon Balls already have provisions to respect the natural order, why does this negative energy stuff have to even exist?

Essentially, GT's logic problems come from an absence of good reasons to even have a conflict. They're symptoms of a greater issue with the story, in that I'm not compelled by any of this shit - or at least, I haven't been given an adequate reason to be compelled. And the only thing they can do is reach for shit that doesn't even make sense. The writers struggled to justify the premise of all of its stories. Being someone that works in the creative field, I run into this problem a lot

[LoganForkHands73]

I’ve said this before, but I think the big problem with the whole thing about the Dragon Team being “meatheads” is that they’re not consistent about it. They decide to wait it out for the artificial humans because they want a good fight, but the moment they learn about #17 and #18, they try to stop Dr. Gero from activating them. Likewise, they go out of their way to try and stop Cell from reaching his perfect form. Vegeta is the only character who actually remains consistent in that regard.

I know people try to rationalize this inconsistency, but I think the real explanation for why they behave that way is that Toriyama realized that it would make for a boring story if the characters did nothing but sit on their asses and wait for the villains to get stronger.

I think this again boils down to them fully realising the severity of the situation only when they're caught in events. It was all a fun game until Android #20 casually eye-beamed the best part of an island city to ash for no reason. #19 and #20 were ultimately not so formidable, but they proved that they meant serious business. Even when Piccolo and Vegeta had Gero's number (literally lol), he was a slippery customer to deal with. Then Trunks throws a huge spanner in the works by revealing that those two weren't the Androids he fought in the future and everyone collectively shits themselves at the implication of that and they quickly rush to regain control of the situation, which they never really had to begin with.

[jjgp1112]

I’ve said this before, but I think the big problem with the whole thing about the Dragon Team being “meatheads” is that they’re not consistent about it. They decide to wait it out for the artificial humans because they want a good fight, but the moment they learn about #17 and #18, they try to stop Dr. Gero from activating them. Likewise, they go out of their way to try and stop Cell from reaching his perfect form. Vegeta is the only character who actually remains consistent in that regard.

I know people try to rationalize this inconsistency, but I think the real explanation for why they behave that way is that Toriyama realized that it would make for a boring story if the characters did nothing but sit on their asses and wait for the villains to get stronger.

I think this again boils down to them fully realising the severity of the situation only when they're caught in events. It was all a fun game until Android #20 casually eye-beamed the best part of an island city to ash for no reason. #19 and #20 were ultimately not so formidable, but they proved that they meant serious business. Even when Piccolo and Vegeta had Gero's number (literally lol), he was a slippery customer to deal with. Then Trunks throws a huge spanner in the works by revealing that those two weren't the Androids he fought in the future and everyone collectively shits themselves at the implication of that and they quickly rush to regain control of the situation, which they never really had to begin with.

And moreover, Piccolo was actually still wasn't convinced that Vegeta couldn't take them until Trunks emphasized just how much they smacked him around. So even then, it still took a bit of push to get the heavy hitters to act on it.

It goes back to what I was saying in the other thread - the Z-Fighters' proactiveness is inversely proportional to their confidence in their ability to handle the situation. When Trunks warns them about the Androids, in their minds it's like "Well they only killed us all because Goku wasn't around and we didn't see it coming. If we train our asses off for three years we're gonna fuck those toasters up, no biggie."

[AliTheZombie13]

For me, it's the extent of the inconsitencies and whether I can actually wrap my head around them and more importantly, if they still produce qualty results. Peopple are far more forgiving of logical problems if they end up just liking the story anyway - it's not some "bias" or "Big Z manipulating the minds of the masses," that's just how it is.

And not only does a lot of GT make even less sense than DBZ's worst blunders, outside of maybe the Earth portion of the baby Arc and the last 2 epsodes of the series, most of it is horseshit!

I would absolutely agree with that if I didn't begin watching DBZ well into adulthood.
And let me tell you: ...the writing is not as good or coherent as you remember.

"Oh, Goku is an alien? Sure. He gets stronger every time he's defeated, huh?! When did that happen?! Why didn't he get a 33x Boost when Piccolo kicked his ass?! Who needs the Holy Water when you have the Saiyan Recovery Power Bullshit! Vegeta can learn Ki Sensing because 'Well Goku's a Saiyan, so am I, so if he can do it, so can I!" Well, that's bullshit! Goku can transform into a super powered form if he's angry enough? But Kuririn died in the original, why didn't he then?! What happened to Kinto Un?! Why is the Dragon Ball world now a sad recreation of modern reality rather than a Chinese-inspired fairyland filled with furries? This has to be set in a different universe! Why was Grandpa Gohan never mentioned again? Where is Lunch? Oh, a doctor created machines stronger than the strongest being in the universe, who is stronger than God himself, sure Jan. Oh, Vegeta has a pure heart?..."

The list goes on and on and on and on.
I feel like a lot of the feelings people have against GT, I can easily apply them against Z.

I'm not going "GT good, Z bad!"
I'm just saying: The writing and logic was always garbage in the Dragon Ball world.
Still, I can enjoy both series, knowing full well that neither make a lick of sense.

I am absolutely sure you can pull up a post-series Toriyama explanation to justify anything I just said above, or come up with your own. But the reality is that both Dragon Ball and GT were stories made for dumb little kids with little logic or coherence put behind. It's okay to like Z and even hate GT for that matter, but don't try to convince me Z is so much better written because it really isn't.

[jjgp1112]

For me, it's the extent of the inconsitencies and whether I can actually wrap my head around them and more importantly, if they still produce qualty results. Peopple are far more forgiving of logical problems if they end up just liking the story anyway - it's not some "bias" or "Big Z manipulating the minds of the masses," that's just how it is.

And not only does a lot of GT make even less sense than DBZ's worst blunders, outside of maybe the Earth portion of the baby Arc and the last 2 epsodes of the series, most of it is horseshit!

I would absolutely agree with that if I didn't begin watching DBZ well into adulthood.
And let me tell you: ...the writing is not as good or coherent as you remember.

"Oh, Goku is an alien? Sure. He gets stronger every time he's defeated, huh?! When did that happen?! Why didn't he get a 33x Boost when Piccolo kicked his ass?! Who needs the Holy Water when you have the Saiyan Recovery Power Bullshit! Vegeta can learn Ki Sensing because 'Well Goku's a Saiyan, so am I, so if he can do it, so can I!" Well, that's bullshit! Goku can transform into a super powered form if he's angry enough? But Kuririn died in the original, why didn't he then?! What happened to Kinto Un?! Why is the Dragon Ball world now a sad recreation of modern reality rather than a Chinese-inspired fairyland filled with furries? This has to be set in a different universe! Why was Grandpa Gohan never mentioned again? Where is Lunch? Oh, a doctor created machines stronger than the strongest being in the universe, who is stronger than God himself, sure Jan. Oh, Vegeta has a pure heart?..."

The list goes on and on and on and on.
I feel like a lot of the feelings people have against GT, I can easily apply them against Z.

I'm not going "GT good, Z bad!"
I'm just saying: The writing and logic was always garbage in the Dragon Ball world.
Still, I can enjoy both series, knowing full well that neither make a lick of sense.

These are all fine details that have nothing to do with whether I actually enjoy what I'm seeing and moreover, I can see a plausible reason for damn near every single thing you listed lmao. I mean Goku not transforming when Krillin first died? Has it not been established that Super Ssaiyan requires a strength threshold first and foremost

Like I said, most of Z's problems tend to be fine details that can be bailed out when the surrounding story is compelling. You're a glad participant in the ride and so you can wave away stuff like "Why wasn't the zenkai so effective before?"

On the other hand, GTs flaws tend to be baked into the entire premise of the conflicts. Toei couldn't write adequate ways to deliver on the ideas they had and so they had to massively reach for things that just don't make sense. It's a symptom of an absence of a compelling narrative. And so the logical problems are a collapse of the thin foundation holding the story together. The Super 17 arc for example is a story that has no reason to exist. The Shadow Dragon concept is interesting but Toei had no adequate answer to the question of "How can we punish the cast for overusing the Balls and end the story with them going away for a while?" and the result of a whole bunch of "huh?"

I'll take an interesting story that occasionally doesn't make sense over a story that struggles to even justify it's existence. "Bad writing" to me isn't a checklist of plot holes, it's a lack of anything compelling or engaging.

[AliTheZombie13]

Like I said, most of Z's problems tend to be fine details that can be bailed out when the surrounding story is compelling. You're a glad participant in the ride and so you can wave away stuff like "Why wasn't the zenkai so effective before?"

Vegeta suddenly going, "Oh, I know Ki Sensing now, an ability that required the entire cast years of spiritual training with God himself, BECAUSE SAIYAN! " isn't a fine detail, it's Toriyama pulling things out of his ass. I'm sure you can try to explain it away, or cut to a quote from one of Toriyama's interviews, but I'm 99% sure I wouldn't buy that.

I'll take an interesting story that occasionally doesn't make sense over a story that struggles to even justify it's existence. "Bad writing" to me isn't a checklist of plot holes, it's a lack of anything compelling or engaging.

That's perfectly fine, but here's where our opinions diverge:
I didn't find Cell or Boo, or the back half of Namek engaging, whereas I did find most stories in GT to be engaging.

I wish I could care about "But the Black Star Dragon Balls make no sense" argument, but I'm more invested in the fact: There is another Dragon Ball Hunt happening, one of the main characters is a girl who wants to be respected, she doesn't treat her Grandpa or a robot well, they're fighting a capitalist planet, and so on, so on.

In stark contrast, I could give less of a shit about Vegeta's mid-life crisis and everything that resulted from it.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[jjgp1112]

Like I said, most of Z's problems tend to be fine details that can be bailed out when the surrounding story is compelling. You're a glad participant in the ride and so you can wave away stuff like "Why wasn't the zenkai so effective before?"

Vegeta suddenly going, "Oh, I know Ki Sensing now, an ability that required the entire cast years of spiritual training with God himself, BECAUSE SAIYAN! " isn't a fine detail, it's Toriyama pulling things out of his ass. I'm sure you can try to explain it away, or cut to a quote from one of Toriyama's interviews, but I'm 99% sure I wouldn't buy that.

My guy, what you just said has been baked into the series from DAY ONE. It's literally Toriyama's favorite running gag. Half the foundation of the series is "Did this dude just did this?" Every characterisitc of the Saiyan race is just extrapolated from Goku's existing character traits and behaviors. Like, the premise of the Saiyans is they're a whole race of Evil Gokus.

Like I'm sorry dawg but if you've gotten to the Namek saga and still can't jive with the idea of characters just strolling in and suddenly doing shit that previously took years of grueling experience then why are you even still on the ride?

[AliTheZombie13]

Like I'm sorry dawg but if you've gotten to the Namek saga and still can't jive with the idea of characters just strolling in and suddenly doing shit that previously took years of grueling experience then why are you even still on the ride?

If Dragon Ball wants to be a gag manga, fine. I don't have a problem with it, then.
Now, if it wants to be this dead-serious space opera action manga where they take on Space Hitler, and things are resolved just like that, then yes, I will have a problem with it, sorry.

[jjgp1112]

Like I'm sorry dawg but if you've gotten to the Namek saga and still can't jive with the idea of characters just strolling in and suddenly doing shit that previously took years of grueling experience then why are you even still on the ride?

If Dragon Ball wants to be a gag manga, fine. I don't have a problem with it, then.
Now, if it wants to be this dead-serious space opera action manga where they take on Space Hitler, and things are resolved just like that, then yes, I will have a problem with it, sorry.

The very nature and presentation of the story is still largely absurd, and "Space Hitler" as funny as it is, when used in an earnest context is applying WAY too much gravity to the nature of the story lmao. It's still a color Kung-Fu fantasy comic, there is no need for it to be one-note in its tone. The gag roots of the series never completely left; at their core, gags are just one of many storytelling devices that can be used across different genres and tones.

[Cure Dragon 255]

For me, it's the extent of the inconsitencies and whether I can actually wrap my head around them and more importantly, if they still produce qualty results. Peopple are far more forgiving of logical problems if they end up just liking the story anyway - it's not some "bias" or "Big Z manipulating the minds of the masses," that's just how it is.

And not only does a lot of GT make even less sense than DBZ's worst blunders, outside of maybe the Earth portion of the baby Arc and the last 2 epsodes of the series, most of it is horseshit!

I would absolutely agree with that if I didn't begin watching DBZ well into adulthood.
And let me tell you: ...the writing is not as good or coherent as you remember.

"Oh, Goku is an alien? Sure. He gets stronger every time he's defeated, huh?! When did that happen?! Why didn't he get a 33x Boost when Piccolo kicked his ass?! Who needs the Holy Water when you have the Saiyan Recovery Power Bullshit! Vegeta can learn Ki Sensing because 'Well Goku's a Saiyan, so am I, so if he can do it, so can I!" Well, that's bullshit! Goku can transform into a super powered form if he's angry enough? But Kuririn died in the original, why didn't he then?! What happened to Kinto Un?! Why is the Dragon Ball world now a sad recreation of modern reality rather than a Chinese-inspired fairyland filled with furries? This has to be set in a different universe! Why was Grandpa Gohan never mentioned again? Where is Lunch? Oh, a doctor created machines stronger than the strongest being in the universe, who is stronger than God himself, sure Jan. Oh, Vegeta has a pure heart?..."

The list goes on and on and on and on.
I feel like a lot of the feelings people have against GT, I can easily apply them against Z.

I'm not going "GT good, Z bad!"
I'm just saying: The writing and logic was always garbage in the Dragon Ball world.
Still, I can enjoy both series, knowing full well that neither make a lick of sense.

These are all fine details that have nothing to do with whether I actually enjoy what I'm seeing and moreover, I can see a plausible reason for damn near every single thing you listed lmao. I mean Goku not transforming when Krillin first died? Has it not been established that Super Ssaiyan requires a strength threshold first and foremost

No, it hasnt actually.

[MasenkoHA]

"Oh, Goku is an alien? Sure. He gets stronger every time he's defeated, huh?! When did that happen?! Why didn't he get a 33x Boost when Piccolo kicked his ass?!
Who needs the Holy Water when you have the Saiyan Recovery Power Bullshit!

Nothing said he didn't get a power up though. Nobody in universe was measuring battle powers at that point. Goku wouldn't have known he got a power up from getting his ass kicked. And for we all know the boost he got from that fight made him strong enough to beat up an old Piccolo but not the renewed younger Piccolo.

Vegeta can learn Ki Sensing because 'Well Goku's a Saiyan, so am I, so if he can do it, so can I!" Well, that's bullshit!

Most aliens seem more adept at using chi than earthlings even if they don't necessarily understand it at a philosophical level. On earth bukujutsu was a technique unique to the Crane clan. But Namekians and Saiyans just all kind of instinctively know it.

It's still an ass pull but not the biggest stretch that Vegeta could pick up on it quickly the same way flight and chi blast were more natural to him than any earthlings.

What happened to Kinto Un?!

We saw Gohan using it at the beginning of Boo..

Where is Lunch?

Krillin: She went chasing after Tenshinhan...

Oh, a doctor created machines stronger than the strongest being in the universe, who is stronger than God himself, sure Jan. Oh, Vegeta has a pure heart?..."

God is a job one applies for, not a supreme powerful deity.

In a world where science can shrink literally anything down into small storage capsules, mad scientist makes androids stronger than the emperor of the universe isn't anymore of a stretch


Q

[AliTheZombie13]

The very nature and presentation of the story is still largely absurd, and "Space Hitler" as funny as it is, when used in an earnest context is applying WAY too much gravity to the nature of the story lmao. It's still a color Kung-Fu fantasy comic, there is no need for it to be one-note in its tone. The gag roots of the series never completely left; at their core, gags are just one of many storytelling devices that can be used across different genres and tones.

Except Vegeta suddenly learning Ki Sensing is not played for comedy, Goku learning the Kamehameha is.
Goku going Super Saiyajin the first time isn't played for comedy, Goten and Trunks going is.

When the explanation I get for what's supposed to be a shocking revelation, a conflict-driving moment in the story, is the laziest gag explanation you can come up with, then I can't help but call the writing ass. Again, you can try explaining it away any way you want, it won't stop me from thinking it's ass.

Though admittedly, we're derailing the thread. I've made my points.
DB writing has always been this bad, so I never really had a problem with GT's lapses in logic, I find the material engaging enough.

[jjgp1112]

I would absolutely agree with that if I didn't begin watching DBZ well into adulthood.
And let me tell you: ...the writing is not as good or coherent as you remember.

"Oh, Goku is an alien? Sure. He gets stronger every time he's defeated, huh?! When did that happen?! Why didn't he get a 33x Boost when Piccolo kicked his ass?! Who needs the Holy Water when you have the Saiyan Recovery Power Bullshit! Vegeta can learn Ki Sensing because 'Well Goku's a Saiyan, so am I, so if he can do it, so can I!" Well, that's bullshit! Goku can transform into a super powered form if he's angry enough? But Kuririn died in the original, why didn't he then?! What happened to Kinto Un?! Why is the Dragon Ball world now a sad recreation of modern reality rather than a Chinese-inspired fairyland filled with furries? This has to be set in a different universe! Why was Grandpa Gohan never mentioned again? Where is Lunch? Oh, a doctor created machines stronger than the strongest being in the universe, who is stronger than God himself, sure Jan. Oh, Vegeta has a pure heart?..."

The list goes on and on and on and on.
I feel like a lot of the feelings people have against GT, I can easily apply them against Z.

I'm not going "GT good, Z bad!"
I'm just saying: The writing and logic was always garbage in the Dragon Ball world.
Still, I can enjoy both series, knowing full well that neither make a lick of sense.

These are all fine details that have nothing to do with whether I actually enjoy what I'm seeing and moreover, I can see a plausible reason for damn near every single thing you listed lmao. I mean Goku not transforming when Krillin first died? Has it not been established that Super Ssaiyan requires a strength threshold first and foremost

No, it hasnt actually.

?????????????????????????


Even if this panel didn't exist, is it really a hard get at all that you probably have to be at a certain level of power for rage to turn you into a SUPER Saiyan, the fabled strongest warrior in the universe? Like DUH, of course rage wouldn't turn any ordinary weak ass Saiyan into a blonde haired menace, that's why it's an exclusive club of the best. I get mad, too; that doesn't mean I'm gonna be Mike Tyson in this motherfucker when that happens.

Except Vegeta suddenly learning Ki Sensing is not played for comedy, Goku learning the Kamehameha is.
Goku going Super Saiyajin the first time isn't played for comedy, Goten and Trunks going is.

When the explanation I get for what's supposed to be a shocking revelation, a conflict-driving moment in the story, is basically a hand-wave, then I can't help but call the writing ass. Again, you can try explaining it away any way you want, it won't stop me from thinking it's ass.

You're getting too caught in me pointing out how Toriyama uses it as a gag, too. My point is, Dragon Ball characters have been doing this from every stage of the series' escalation; it's a feature at this point, not a bug. If you can't accept that Vegeta can figure something out just by looking at it, then you should probably reject the premise of Goku being able to do any of the shit that he's been doing since chapter 1. "Guy just strolls in and surpasses limits of capability like nothing cuz he's awesome" is literally the series from day one.

At a certain point, you either get the series or you don't. Dragon Ball didn't suddenly turn into a new show, it's the same series that had all the silly gag shit in the beginning and that's the foundation it's standing on. Certain shit's just gonna happen and you either roll with it or you don't. Like Masenko pointed out, a human being able to create Androids stronger than super powered aliens is ridiculous but this is the same show where people can atomize whole ass houses into capsules you put in your pocket. You're in Dragon Ball town and this is how we do shit around here.

[GhostEmperorX]

The very nature and presentation of the story is still largely absurd

And the afterlife in particular is probably one of the most solid testaments to this, never breaking rank from its comedic setup even as the series enters its most serious phases (well, except for the Future timeline I guess :p).

[Cure Dragon 255]

These are all fine details that have nothing to do with whether I actually enjoy what I'm seeing and moreover, I can see a plausible reason for damn near every single thing you listed lmao. I mean Goku not transforming when Krillin first died? Has it not been established that Super Ssaiyan requires a strength threshold first and foremost

No, it hasnt actually.

?????????????????????????


Even if this panel didn't exist, is it really a hard get at all that you probably have to be at a certain level of power for rage to turn you into a SUPER Saiyan, the fabled strongest warrior in the universe? Like DUH, of course rage wouldn't turn any ordinary weak ass Saiyan into a blonde haired menace, that's why it's an exclusive club of the best. I get mad, too; that doesn't mean I'm gonna be Mike Tyson in this motherfucker when that happens.

Except Vegeta suddenly learning Ki Sensing is not played for comedy, Goku learning the Kamehameha is.
Goku going Super Saiyajin the first time isn't played for comedy, Goten and Trunks going is.

When the explanation I get for what's supposed to be a shocking revelation, a conflict-driving moment in the story, is basically a hand-wave, then I can't help but call the writing ass. Again, you can try explaining it away any way you want, it won't stop me from thinking it's ass.

You're getting too caught in me pointing out how Toriyama uses it as a gag, too. My point is, Dragon Ball characters have been doing this from every stage of the series' escalation; it's a feature at this point, not a bug. If you can't accept that Vegeta can figure something out just by looking at it, then you should probably reject the premise of Goku being able to do any of the shit that he's been doing since chapter 1. "Guy just strolls in and surpasses limits of capability like nothing cuz he's awesome" is literally the series from day one.

At a certain point, you either get the series or you don't. Dragon Ball didn't suddenly turn into a new show, it's the same series that had all the silly gag shit in the beginning and that's the foundation it's standing on. Certain shit's just gonna happen and you either roll with it or you don't. Like Masenko pointed out, a human being able to create Androids stronger than super powered aliens is ridiculous but this is the same show where people can atomize whole ass houses into capsules you put in your pocket. You're in Dragon Ball town and this is how we do shit around here.

Yeah I dont read the manga a lot, but this is just speculation on Vegeta's part and WE DO see weakass punks get Super Saiyan suddenly. Also the whole you wouldnt turn into Mike Tyson, OF COURSE YOU wouldnt Super Saiyans dont exist. Even regular ass Saiyans dont exist.