tonysoprano300 wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:23 pm
The Sopranos is practically my Koran so I feel a little comfortable in articulating the difference, with Tony the question of whether he can reconcile his mob life with his family life is posed from the very first episode of the very first season. The show portrays even the most Granular aspects of his character to give us the necessary insights into how this guy copes with the morally abhorrent things that he does. Chase is 100% clear that Tony is not a role model and he is never portrayed as a good guy, and Tony is often forced to contend with these moral question's.
AFAIK, DB never does that(Which Is perfectly fine) I don’t think there was an attempt to even hold up the mirror until maybe TOP? even that story uses it more as an excuse to make things happen rather than a legitimate component of Goku that we’re meant to ponder or explore but at least the question “Is Goku truly a good guy?” was genuinely posed there. My understanding of Goku in the original DB series is that he’s a pure hearted guy with a simple code of ethics who sometimes makes risky decisions due to the simplicity of his ethics, in the “Z” portion of DB that seemed to slightly shift in a direction where his worst tendencies were downright destructive to everyone. And Super is just another more extreme step in that direction.
I love The Sopranos too and I know it's a very broad comparison to the fat fuckin' crook from New Jersey. I think it only really happens towards the end of Z and Super where, as you say, Goku shows more selfish and destructive tendencies that really make you question his morals. But they make you look back on previous arcs where Goku was more unambiguously portrayed as the good guy, and you start to question if he always had the best intentions back then as well, even though he was ultimately doing the right thing.
That's part of what makes DB interesting to me. Sometimes, the intent is less important than the results. In Super, you had an unrepentant sociopath named Freeza doing much of the legwork in saving Universe 7 from erasure. He's still an awful person and spends most of the tournament tormenting weaker fighters, but in a twisted way, he ultimately helped to save more people than he ever killed. There's no G.I. Joe moral lesson to be learned there, but it's surprisingly realistic - it's no shock to anyone that the Allies had their share of horrible bastards leading or fighting for them in World War II, but the alternative was global domination from the Axis Powers.
"We're soldiers. Soldiers don't go to Hell."
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 11:21 am
This is a powerful message, because yes, Dragon Ball doesn't take itself seriously, and that's OK because Toriyama wrote this series for fun and for readers and viewers to have fun with it. Goku is not a superhero, he's made mistakes and the story of Dragon Ball is about his journey, not his destination (which in this case would be his power level). It's rooted in the Daoist mindset of
accepting and yielding the joyful and carefree sides of the Chinese people because Goku lives to train and fight, but its the losses and hardships he endures that make it worthwhile. Even the villains who turn good, like Piccolo and Vegeta do so through personal development, not because someone saw the good in them and wished for them to be redeemed.
As for the writing I'd say the beauty is in its imperfection because Dragon Ball teaches us there's always someone or something greater and to never give up striving to improve yourself.
I agree that Dragon Ball does have some deceptively powerful messages hidden away, the big one being that everyone is capable of changing and improving. You just have to want it. To see the results, it takes a lot of time and hard work.
I think that all reflects well on Toriyama, for all his self-professed laziness and devil-may-care attitude. He worked himself to the damn bone every day for like two decades.
Majin Buu wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 10:31 am
This, so much this.
This is one of the reasons, if not the main reason Dragon Ball tends to feel different when it's not Toriyama writing it or outlining the story: You've got people (people who are perhaps accustomed to more conventional styles of writing and storytelling) trying to emulate the writing style of a fundamentally irreverent guy who wrote by the seat of his pants without much planning.
So much of what makes Dragon Ball Dragon Ball is fundamentally tied to Toriyama's writing sensibilities, personal tastes, work ethic, etc.
Absolutely.
I'd clarify that some additions and alternative takes coming from those more conventional writers
can be enriching and worthwhile in their own right. On the official side, the Bardock TV special is rightly acclaimed, though Toriyama admitted it was not the kind of story he would tell (which he later proved with Minus). If other creatives are allowed to play in Toriyama's sandbox, as he always encouraged, it's only right that they put their own spin on things when they see fit. It's impossible to emulate someone else's style 100% but so long as they demonstrate a decent understanding, the work they produce should be fine.
I mainly find it notable that so few fan creators are able to create work that accurately reflects the tone, world and characters Toriyama created. In the DBAF example, Toyotaro left his own creative thumbprints which echo across his Heroes and Super work, while the story draws way more from the Toei anime continuity than the manga, so it's doubly impressive that it still feels so much like a real Toriyama comic. I know that, statistically, there are thousands of others out there that have done so successfully, but I rarely seem to find them, lol.
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