Unpopular DB opinions

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
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tonysoprano300
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by tonysoprano300 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 4:16 pm

Yeah, it's that "have their cake and eat it, too" effect that just doesn't work because, as Majin Buu says, it just attracts the sociopaths. Do you know how fucking creepy it is when I seen men wearing that Heisenberg merchandise? lol

I get that certain characters have a large enough presence in the culture to where fans are going to cosplay or represent them in some way. If i go to comicon and see dudes dressing up as The Joker, I'm assuming its just because they loved The Dark Knight. That said, the people who actually try to defend or advocate on behalf of some of these characters are wild. That actually worries me, and makes me think that highschool literature courses are failing us lol

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 6:02 pm

Zephyr made my points a lot better than me. But yeah, that's how I've always seen things - a lot of Z's inconsistencies don't lie in the character's behaviors, but more in technical. GT's inconsistencies are all narrative stuff.

That's what I was saying in the other thread about how Dragon Ball's characters are surprisingly realistic. One example that's always brought up is how Goku is all gung-ho about having a fair fight and will put the win over the fate of the Earth, yet he's more than willing to team up with Piccolo to take on Raditz. But for one thing, this was one of the rare times where Goku flat out says, "I'm not even excited, I'm JUST scared" and more importantly, his infant son who has nothing to do with any of this is at stake. Like, yeah, of course he's gonna approach this situation differently. It's easy for him to treat things as a game when he thinks he got this...until he don't got this and other people are in danger, too.

Against Piccolo Jr., his faith in his strength was unwavering. Against Raditz, Vegeta, and Frieza at points, and Super Buu he thinks he is absolutely fucked and takes other measure. The one time he decides to take his L like a man when he realizes he's fucked, it's when Gohan was his actual Plan A.

Or Vegeta's wavering pragmatism and intelligence - same deal here. On Namek, he knows he's the underdog because he's been dealing with these guys all his life. Against the Androids, achieving his life goal of Super Saiyan has given him a God complex and those tin cans are overhyped; hell that one's actually spelled out! But for the most part, a lot of these things don't need spelling, it should just be easy to see how circumstances shift one's approach. It's only the Buu saga where I think things get genuinely messy and folks are all over the place in terms of behavior, and some of the logic holes get in the way of the story and my ability to roll with things.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 7:16 pm

Normally I am indeed one to HATE IT when people just copy paste some Youtuber's opinion on the matters at hand but I will cheat a little and finally put this to rest. THIS IS why people are so harsh on GT Ali.
✨"Good" “Ideas”, Poorly Executed✨
All right, so it’s finally time for Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. This might very well be the most popular thing to come out of GT, and they waited until episode 60 of 64 to do it. This guy is a guarenteed crowd-pleaser. People love Fusion and they love Gogeta and they love Super Saiyan 4. All this shit is awesome and good, but GT only gives us one episode with this dude, and five episodes with Doltaki. Let that sink in for a moment.

Why do people love SSJ4 Gogeta? Simple: He’s the biggest, baddest cat in the whole franchise. Maybe Vegito Blue or Gogeta Blue are in his league, but he predates them both by about 20 years. Omega Shenron has been eating everyone’s lunch, and he’s the final boss of GT, which made him the de facto final boss of the whole franchise until Beerus showed up in 2013. Gogeta 4 shows up and picks Omega apart like he’s nothing.

This whole Dragon Ball thing is a power fantasy. Anyone who complains about the wishes, or the transformations, or characters being too powerful, they’ve completely missed the point. It’s like complaining that a haunted house is too spooky, or that a musical has too many songs in it. Characters like Frieza, Cell, Broly, and Gogeta are popular because they get these long sequences where they just go around whippin’ ass and no one can stop them. And then someone might whip their ass and they get a lot of popularity too.

And where GT went wrong is that they failed to understand how that power fantasy works. That’s why they did one episode of SSJ4 Gogeta, and five episodes of Doltaki. I mean, I could go on, but I think that really says everything you need to know about GT’s priorities.

Also, GT completely fucked up SSJ4 Gogeta. They had a cool thing, and they totally blew it. Let’s discuss how.

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So first of all, we need to have Goku and Vegeta do the Fusion Dance to make Gogeta. Omega Shenron refuses to allow this, even though he basically stood there like an idiot and let Vegeta turn into a Super Saiyan 4. Apparently he’s finally remembered that he wants to win this fight, and he can’t achieve this by just floating around while his enemies plot against him.

So Trunks jumps in to hold Omega off, and he does amazingly well, considering he doesn’t even bother going Super Saiyan for this. Keep in mind that Omega has already beaten up Trunks a couple of times earlier. Like, only one hit each time, but Omega’s supposed to be insanely powerful, so that should be enough to take Trunks out of the fight for good.

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Then Bulma shoots her Blutz Wave Tank at Omega, which is completely dumb, because I’m pretty sure Blutz Waves would have no effect on Omega. Maybe she was trying to hit Trunks and turn him into a Super Saiyan 4. Seriously, why didn’t she try that? Anyway, Omega takes out her tank, and she’s more furious that he didn’t warn her that he was going to fire back.

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Then Gohan and Goten try to hold off Omega, and they get creamed, and then Trunks jumps in again, and he actually drives Omega back for a decent amount of time. How the hell is he pulling this off? See, this is what GT Logic is all about. The whole premise here is that nothing short of a Super Saiyan 4 can do anything against Omega Shenron, but they need the supporting characters to jump in anyway, so we end up with this dumb paradox where Trunks can do just as well against Omega in base form as Goku was going at maximum power.

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Meanwhile, Goku’s just watching this like a dumbass, and Vegeta asks him what he’s waiting for. When the characters are complaining about the plot, you know something’s gone terribly wrong.

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So they finally go through with it, and Gogeta appears and Omega can’t even get near the guy without getting hurt, and everyone’s thrilled. Pan is especially excited, because she’s never even heard of this technique before, so this is the first time she’s seen it in action. Then Uub finally comes back from getting blasted in the face in Episode 58. Well, he’s selling his shoulder instead of his face, but you get the idea. At least Uub is more professional than Goten, Gohan, and Trunks. Each of them have gotten worked over by Omega Shenron and they keep acting like they’re completely fresh.

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So Uub suggests that one of them fuse with him, and they all look at each other like dopes. Then Gohan says they need to heal Uub’s arm first. Okay, yeah, that’s a good point. He probably can’t do the Fusion dance correctly with a bad wing, but it doesn’t address his point. Goten and Trunks can do fusion right now. They could have done it several episodes ago. They could have done it during the Baby Saga. Uub is literally asking them why they don’t use that thing they know that makes them stronger and helps them win, and they’re all gawking at each other like Uub has a second head.

It would have been funnier if Trunks had said “Sorry, Uub, but this is GT. We have to fight in base form for no reason at all. Just trust me.”

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Let’s get back to the fight. Yeah, Omega can’t do shit against Gogeta. Cool. Here’s the problem.

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Nobody, and I mean nobody, in this show is interested in winning a fight. When Omega has the advantage he just toys with his opponents and gloats. Now Gogeta has the advantage, and he starts toying with Omega. He makes four copies of himself and they all shoot Kamehameha’s at him, but instead of ki blasts they shoot confetti.

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Then Omega gets flustered and prepares his ultimate attack, the Revenge Death Ball. No, wait, it’s the Electric Eclipse Bomb! No wait, I’m sorry, it’s the Minus Energy Power Ball. I don’t know why I keep getting these techniques confused. They’re each so distinctive and innovative.

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So Gogeta just waits until the last second and kicks the thing up into outer space. Just like Vegito did when he repelled a big planet-busting ki ball launched by Super Buu. This whole fight is just Vegito vs. Super Buu, only shorter and dumber and without Vegito’s rationale for toying with his opponent. Vegito was baiting Buu in order to get absorbed so he could rescue Piccolo and the boys. Gogeta is screwing around because… well, that’s what Vegito did in DBZ, so I guess Toei thought it would be okay if they did it too.

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So one side-effect of this is that Gogeta’s deflection somehow dismantles the minus energy field surrounding the Earth. Up to now, it’s been cutting off the Earth from the rest of the universe, and not even the Supreme Kai could monitor what was happening there.

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Gogeta explains that when he kicked the Power Ball, he used his ki to convert the entire thing into Plus Energy, which then neutralized the Minus Energy field around the Earth. This is pretty dumb, but it’s kind of like how Movie 12 Gogeta just somehow knew how to turn Janemba back into a regular oni kid, so I’ll allow it.

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What I won’t allow is the part where Omega stupidly repeats everything Gogeta just said, almost word for word, like he still hasn’t grasped what happened. It’s not that complicated, and Omega isn’t this dumb. Toei just stuck this in here to pad out the episode.

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So then Gogeta blows Omega Shenron away with the Big Bang Kamehameha, and you’d think that would be the end of the big dope…

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I mean, he explodes and the Dragon Balls get scattered around, so it sure looks like he’s toast, but I know better, because the last three episodes have featured false finishes like this, and he always comes back.

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And there he is, a little singed, but basically unharmed. Seriously, this guy took a Big Bang Kamehameha from Super Gogeta 4, right in the face, and he’s not even hurt. But somehow Trunks was keeping him busy at the start of the episode? GT Logic is one hell of a drug.

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So Gogeta just sets up another one, which is a great opportunity for Toei to reuse the animation cells. Seriously, though, if I were Gogeta, I’d be a little nervous about this. If he survived one of these things, maybe Gogeta’s not strong enough to beat him.

Actually, maybe that’s the whole deal with Omega Shenron. He’s strong, sure, but he’s not that much stronger than Goku. It’s just that he’s so damn tough that he can take almost any offense and shrug it off. That might explain why he never kills the others with his attacks. He has to save his offensive power for when it really counts, because he doesn’t have that much to work with. His main strategy is waiting for Goku to wear himself out in a vain attempt to kill him.

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Well, in this case, it totally works. Gogeta comes apart before he can deliver the final blow. Goku speculates it’s because all that Super Saiyan 4 power burned out the fusion time. That’s actually a legitimate point, since Gotenks could only hold Super Saiyan 3 for five minutes before unfusing. From what we’ve seen, SSJ4 seems to be much more stable than SSJ3, but maybe that doesn’t matter when it comes to Fusion.

Anyway, the one bright side to all of this is that Omega has lost the other six Dragon Balls, so now he’s back to being plain old Syn Shenron, and Goku or Vegeta can beat him solo when he’s like this.

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Except, no, because Syn just uses the exact same trick he used before and swallows all the Dragon Balls again. And the good guys just stand there like idiots and let this happen…

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… Except for the four-star ball, which Goku manages to grab before it can fly into Omega’s mouth. Well, that’s something at least, but it would have been more interesting if they had intercepted a few more Dragon Balls. Let Vegeta take on Omega with only three Dragon Balls and see how well that goes.

So there you have it. Hopefully I don’t have to explain how Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta doesn’t count as an idea. It’s just a combination of three pre-existing ideas: Oozaru, Super Saiyan, and the Fusion Technique. That doesn’t make it a bad thing. They were right to put SSJ4 Gogeta in this show. It’s a great call, just don’t try to tell me it was some brilliant innovation that GT came up with.

There’s nothing fresh in any of this. Gogeta 4 vs. Omega Shenron is just Vegito vs. Super Buu. Only the jokes don’t work and the techniques are dumber and Omega doesn’t do anything cool to put up a fight. He just keeps making idle threats and getting his ass kicked.

✨Is This Episode Worse than “The Roaming Lake”?✨
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You can defend this episode by saying “Well, at least they gave us Gogeta”, but that’s kind of the point I’m trying to make here. Like I said from the beginning, Dragon Ball is a power fantasy. That’s the appeal to it. And GT keeps screwing up that appeal by giving the audience a taste of power fantasy, only to snatch it away.

Super Saiyan 4 is a great example of this. It’s supposed to be this ultimate power, but Goku keeps getting his ass kicked whenever he uses it. He’s constantly talking a big game, only to get wrecked, and then he has to ask his kids to give him their power so he can finish the fight. Now he’s got Vegeta backing him up and that still isn’t enough, so they fuse into Gogeta and that doesn’t work either.

GT loves to say “no”. Can we see more of Bulla, Goten, and Marron? No. Can we see Pan turn Super Saiyan? No. Can we check out adult Gotenks? No. Can Vegeta be a Super Saiyan 4? Well, okay, but only long enough to fuse into Gogeta. Oh, well can we see Gogeta win a fight? No.

The thing is, in a story arc like this, you could at least have some fun rooting for the villain, since he seems to be cleaning house so far. That’s how I found a favorite character in Cell, and I think that’s why a lot of fans enjoy Broly and Majin Buu. The thing is, Omega Shenron isn’t really getting that kind of dominant portrayal. I mean, sure, he’s having his way with the heroes. Nobody can stop him, but he’s so damn lethargic about it all. Also, it doesn’t matter much that he survived a Big Bang Kamehameha to the face when he keeps getting flustered by guys like Trunks and Uub. He can’t even kill Mr. Satan, so how big a badass can he be? Omega Shenron keeps mocking all the “small fries”, but he hasn’t been able to do anything about them. You know what Majin Buu did to all of Goku’s little pals? He ate and killed them! Omega just doesn’t have that same energy to him.

So what you end up with his is this lackluster final battle where nothing ever seems to get done. We’ve seen a lot of big power-ups and transformations here. Limit Breaker Super Saiyan 4 Goku. Syn Sheron becomes Omega Shenron. Vegeta turns SSJ4 and fuses with Goku. Goku even pulled off a Super Dragon Fist in the previous episode. But none of it matters. This is part four of a seven-episode battle, and it feels like we’re right back to square one. ‘

“The Roaming Lake” may not have the power scaling of this episode, but at least when Goku blows up an indestructible dam, it stays destroyed. TRL wins again, 61-0.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Zephyr » Mon Aug 19, 2024 7:27 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 6:02 pmOne example that's always brought up is how Goku is all gung-ho about having a fair fight and will put the win over the fate of the Earth, yet he's more than willing to team up with Piccolo to take on Raditz. But for one thing, this was one of the rare times where Goku flat out says, "I'm not even excited, I'm JUST scared" and more importantly, his infant son who has nothing to do with any of this is at stake. Like, yeah, of course he's gonna approach this situation differently. It's easy for him to treat things as a game when he thinks he got this...until he don't got this and other people are in danger, too.
He is actually kind of excited at first. After he and Piccolo remove their weighted clothing, Goku says "This is gonna be a fight!" But he's also still thinking to himself about going for Raditz's tail, so he's definitely not prioritizing a fair fight by that point. He says he's terrified specifically after Piccolo asks if the prospect of two more even stronger Saiyans excites him, which makes sense to me; they're already in over their heads here, but now things are looking even more hopeless?

Worth noting: Goku teaming up with Piccolo to go fight Raditz happens after Goku gets his fucking clock cleaned by Raditz with just a knee to the stomach. It's pretty easy to read their exchange at Kame House as the 'fair match', which Goku lost immediately. Cue the more practical and desperate approach that we see.

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 3:38 pm
Zephyr wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 3:08 pm Like, please, I am begging everyone to give the manga a fresh read with "these good natured assholes truly love to punch each other" and "the world is built around martial arts" in mind. See if new things jump out at you, or maybe even make more sense. You can still say the storytelling is bad afterwards, I promise.
I'm not arguing the storytelling from either GT or Z or whatever is good or bad.

I can appreciate (most parts of) GT knowing full well it's written like garbage, rushed beyond all belief and lacking in logical consistency, most of which I attribute to the show's bad reception and possible early cancellation. I think MistareFusion does a good job of exploring GT's good and bad without quickly devolving into "LFHKLAHFIALÇOLAFHAHFÇAHFLAG THIS SHOW SUCKS GT MEANS GOKU TIME GTFS MOTHERFUCKER!!!" like every other YouTube reviewer tends to do.

I think people have pointed out enough why they're so generous with DB/Z and not GT: They think despite its flaws, DB/Z has a coherent story with coherent conflicts, and everything that "doesn't make sense" (subjective) can be explained away with head-canons and fans connecting the dots, and one person can watch the series without feeling like they missed something.

And that I wholeheartedly disagree. Whereas I can say that about the original DB, Z left me with a lot of question marks in my head. Some of them were explained in interview, others we can only debate and theorize, like we're doing right now. And even then, I don't buy the canonical explanations we're given in interview either. I simply will not accept bullshit like "S-cells" or the furries and other magical elements of the original being written out because of a Capsule Corp drug or whatever.

At the end of the day, I regress back to my original point: Both DB and GT have awful writing, but it's okay to like them anyway.
I just don't genuinely get when someone points their fingers at GT and goes, "I hate this show because it has bad writing." Like... Yeah... Dragon Ball usually does. It would make more sense if you just said you thought the show was boring or the story didn't click with you.
I mean, you are arguing that both Z and GT have bad storytelling. That's the crux of your being annoyed that Z's bad writing is given a pass when GT's isn't. And if you feel they've both got bad writing, then I totally understand why that'd annoy you. Definitely smells like a double standard.

But I think it's more helpful to look at what specific things in these respective shows are being treated as poorly written. To my understanding, we're talking about moments of plot holes and plot contrivances here? Yeah, there are plotholes in Dragon Ball, from DB to Z to GT. And yeah, I guess some people are more willing to overlook plotholes in one show if they otherwise like it more. Pound for pound I'm not sure which show has more plotholes, or by how much, but it's a possibility that GT has more.

But when we get into plot contrivances? I get the sense that we're now talking about how Goku and co. opting to train to fight the Androids in 3 years is a plot contrivance in much the same way that [gestures broadly at the Black Star Dragon Balls in general] is. That people are being too generous about this Z thing, but hating on this GT thing. Which is why I'm suggesting, once again, that this Cell arc plot beat isn't the contrivance it's continually framed as, and is instead revealing of a disconnect between certain audience members and what Dragon Ball is on a conceptual level: a story about competitive meatheads treating life and death battles like meathead competitions, in a wacky world literally tailored for competitive meatheadedness. If meathead psychology, competitive psychology, and/or the tournament-coded reality the story takes place in are lost on you, then I can understand why things will fly under the radar.

So, if this is supposed to be an instance of people going too easy on Z's instances of bad writing, I think it's a bad one to prop up, because even calling it a plot contrivance is a bit of misdiagnosis in the first place. You might see things as being "given a pass", when they're not even in need of such a pass in the first place. You might see someone explaining the nature of their pass, when they're actually explaining why they feel no pass is required. Generally speaking, of course. There are definitely plenty of people who will say "DB's trash, but I like it", and yeah, that's fine.

Would I be an uncharitable hypocrite if I don't do for the existence of the Black Star Dragon Balls what I do for Goku and co. deciding to train for 3 years instead of attacking Gero? Maybe! I don't know. I haven't rewatched GT in almost a decade, so I don't know if I might see something others missed. But I don't think there's a rudimentary character reading that people are blind to that's causing them to take issue with the Black Star Dragon Balls existing the way they do. So in terms of comparing these two alleged plot contrivances, I'm at least preliminarily confident that we can, indeed, mark GT down for this while also not making Z down for that.

I think that's what you'd really need to do to see if there's a real double standard going on. Take the thing that people hate on GT for, bring up a similar thing in Z that people should hate on Z for, and see if there's equally good reason for hating on that thing in both instances. There are probably going to be times where there's definitely a double standard going on. But I think there are also going to be times where there's not actually a double standard going on, and GT just did something worse.

---

But you're not wrong about how hip it is to hate on GT. It's a very popular thing to do, and it often seems like people hate on it because it's the thing to do, even if they haven't watched it. It's been this way since long before the video essay culture of the present. Like I said, I haven't watched it in a long time, so I can't say to any real degree how much I feel the hate is warranted at this point. It might be a similar case to these classic instances of Z's 'bad writing', where I think some stuff is really just flying over their heads and so their read of the material leaves much to be desired. Or it might not be, and maybe GT is just actually shitting the bed way more than Z did. I definitely noticed during the Super anime's run that people were hating on all sorts of writing decisions that I was very suspicious would be given a pass if they'd had 20+ years of internet discourse to make sense of it and establish some conventional fandom wisdom about it. DB's original run is held together by a lot more duct tape than many are willing to give credit for (and at the same time, I think it's got a lot less cracks and holes than many others insist it has).

Honestly, I don't even give the S-Cells or animal drug stuff a passing thought. Those kinds of things are neat if you're a lorebeast and you want to think of the Dragon World as this super logical place that you can and should try to make cohesive sense of. I was super into that stuff a long time ago, so I get it, but it's not that interesting to me anymore.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by tonysoprano300 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 8:30 pm

To be clear I only brought up the Gero thing to illustrate that even if you want to argue that these are exactly the type of characters who would risk the world for a good fight, they’re actions are still a bit nonsensical even within that framework. Just in that they walked in completely blind, and did no meaningful preparation whatsoever and as martial artists they should pay their opponents enough respect to actually prepare for them. Hell even Bulma seemed to be surprised to learn that Gero was part of the Red Ribbon Army after the 3 year time skip. But similar to GT, they can’t operate that way because if they did it would ruin the surprise and the chase after Gero wouldnt happen and they wouldn’t fall victim to android 19s absorption abilities. So its plot imo

I think if you want a story where the team does the pragmatic thing while still show casing their interest in a good fight, then its Buu saga. Everyone besides Vegeta is invested in trying to Stop the awakening of Majin Buu despite facing very little resistance in Babidi’s ship. Vegeta was pushed to start killing innocent people in order to force Goku into fighting him instead of trying to stop Babidi. However you still get the very real sense that they’re enjoying themselves when they’re dealing with Babidi’s minions despite the stakes of the situation. It was great

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:01 pm

At the end of the day, I don't generally care about plot holes, bad writing or inconsistencies.
When you get invested in a fandom, start making your own stories, fanart, fan comics and such, you start to understand it doesn't really matter, what matters is: Are you having fun with it?

And I'm sorry to say, but most of DBZ is not something I had fun with. I eventually got tired of the things it presented me with. I really didn't relate or care about Goku's "I want to become stronger!" or Vegeta's "I want to be stronger than Kakarot!" that eventually spiraled out of control into making the characters into assholes, whether that was the writer's intention or not. Combine that with the filler pacing problems, and watching DBZ became self-inflicted torture.

Other than Super #17 and the Evil Dragons, GT gave me a fun time. I found myself relating a lot more to Goku and Pan's growth as characters.
Last edited by AliTheZombie13 on Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:02 pm

tonysoprano300 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 8:30 pm To be clear I only brought up the Gero thing to illustrate that even if you want to argue that these are exactly the type of characters who would risk the world for a good fight, they’re actions are still a bit nonsensical even within that framework. Just in that they walked in completely blind, and did no meaningful preparation whatsoever and as martial artists they should pay their opponents enough respect to actually prepare for them. Hell even Bulma seemed to be surprised to learn that Gero was part of the Red Ribbon Army after the 3 year time skip. But similar to GT, they can’t operate that way because if they did it would ruin the surprise and the chase after Gero wouldnt happen and they wouldn’t fall victim to android 19s absorption abilities. So its plot imo
But what makes you think these are the kind of characters to go to their local library to do research on Dr.Gero? Maybe Bulma but she was pretty much resigned to "I gave my suggestion to nip this in the bud before it can happen, nobody's gonna listen whatever" and I guess Gohan, but he's also like 7 and just happy to spend time with his dad and Uncle Piccolo.

Also not sure what research would have told them 19 was designed to absorb chi.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:06 pm

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:01 pm At the end of the day, I don't generally care about plot holes, bad writing or inconsistencies.
When you get invested in a fandom, start making your own stories, fanart, fan comics and such, you start to understand it doesn't really matter, what matters is: Are you having fun with it?

And I'm sorry to say, but most of DBZ is not something I had fun with. I eventually got tired of the things it presented me with. I really didn't relate or care about Goku's "I want to become stronger!" or Vegeta's "I want to be stronger than Kakarot!" that eventually spiraled out of control into making the characters into assholes, whether that was the writer's intention or not. Combine that with the filler pacing problems, and watching DBZ became self-inflicted torture.

Other than Super #17 and the Evil Dragons, GT gave me a fun time. I found myself relating a lot more to Goku and Pan's growth as characters.
Oh wow, this is legit the best. I absolutely had a love hate relationship with Kung Fu Panda but I absolutely loved the fanfics. They were everything I wanted out of the franchise and then some. We should make a thread about this, fans who enjoy the fanfics but dont love the canon franchise. This is a legit thing that happens.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:11 pm

I just don't buy into the "I hate GT because it has bad writing" argument, or the argument about plot-holes, inconsistencies, etc. Dragon Ball always had that. Whether the examples I gave qualify or not, it had those, so it kind of sounds hypocritical and childish to condemn the show for these things.

I feel like a lot of the hate it gets is just the fandom not knowing how to express its feelings towards it. Admittedly, GT tones down the fighting in favor of soap opera sentimentality and wacky shenanigans, something that would be more in place with other Toei shows like Sailor Moon, and most of the fandom took that as a fatal sin.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:17 pm

I just realized my post validates the whole "TFS's videos are a legit superior way to enjoy the franchise. Fuck the anime and manga" and I am not happy about it. Oh well.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:18 pm

I haven't watched Dragon Ball GT in probably a decade, but I would definitely say that my problem with it lied both in the weak directing and animation as well as the unwillingness for the series to really commit to big changes for Gokuu himself, Pan, Trunks or the other characters. There's a lack of decisiveness to the writing that I think hurts it. I really liked Piccolo dying, although I think his death could have used one last hurrah, I'm quite happy that Piccolo remained dead. I wanted more of that for all of the characters. This is not a series by Toriyama Akira, this is a series by completely different writers and directors. Go wild! Break the rules of Dragon Ball, don't just fall back on them like that.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:41 pm

I mean, that's a fair complaint. I too really wish they had committed to the show's initial premise rather than rush it and dial it back to safe territory. The Baby Arc at least felt like a fun ride, can't say the same about the last two arcs of the show.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 10:16 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 8:21 pm Yeah. I know I was harsh on my opening post but GT fans always say "Why so hard on GT?" but I have to say "What DOES it offer that redeems the various plot holes?" Until Super made cute baby Pan a badass it had the "Pan is used as a character" and now that ALSO has been done and done better elsewhere.
You know, I could make a whole damn essay about the things GT gave me and I appreciate it for them, but I'm pretty sure at this point, nothing whatsoever I say will change your mind, so why bother? At the risk of sounding like a massive hypocrite, I guess just enjoying the things that bring joy to your life is way too hard. No, you absolutely have to take down others.

It was fine enough debating about it here in the Unpopular Opinions section given that my opinion was, you know, unpopular. But no, that new thread absolutely needed to exist, just to make sure everybody knows that my opinion is unpopular as fuck and the show that I enjoy is unquestionably ass and I'm a freak for thinking it's not.

Maybe what I heard once was true, maybe "GT is for those who don't enjoy Dragon Ball", after all.
Maybe I'm not a "Real Dragon Ball Fan", if what everyone else said in this thread is true.
If I'm not a "Real Dragon Ball Fan", that begs me the question, what am I doing here?
That's a pretty good question, maybe I should leave. This is a place for "Real Dragon Ball Fans", after all, not me.

I'm sorry to anybody if you ever felt personally insulted by my admittedly pretty aggressive at times opinions, but I really never meant to insult anybody for enjoying Dragon Ball.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 10:39 pm

Fuck I feel like a bully now. I thought you would simply explain but this is sad, I feel like a bully.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by GhostEmperorX » Tue Aug 20, 2024 1:01 am

Well, this is a... strange turn of events, I guess?
For my own part, I definitely haven't sat down to watch GT properly (i.e. as it originally was in 1996) from start to finish, even in this era where the record is being set a little more straight from the confusion that it was a decade or so ago, but if some of the points brought up here and elsewhere are anything to go by, I'm not sure if I'd want to myself (even with the new unofficial restorations floating around on the web).
Especially if some of the slog portions of Z peppered with unconventional decisions made by the protagonists are actually worse in GT with less to make up for it (and great points were made lots of times about how repetitive and even annoying it could get in Z).

And from what I know about some behind-the-scenes affairs, while it does explain certain factors, I personally wouldn't consider it worth the time sink.

By that same token however, I'll be sure to refrain from giving any opinions on the actual meat of its story.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Aug 20, 2024 7:47 am

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:11 pm I just don't buy into the "I hate GT because it has bad writing" argument, or the argument about plot-holes, inconsistencies, etc. Dragon Ball always had that. Whether the examples I gave qualify or not, it had those, so it kind of sounds hypocritical and childish to condemn the show for these things.

I feel like a lot of the hate it gets is just the fandom not knowing how to express its feelings towards it. Admittedly, GT tones down the fighting in favor of soap opera sentimentality and wacky shenanigans, something that would be more in place with other Toei shows like Sailor Moon, and most of the fandom took that as a fatal sin.
I mean there's nothing interesting going on. The fights are toned down to Ki blast fests, Pan is an insufferable character that unlike a similarly insufferable guy like Vegeta, we're actually meant to sympathize with? A lot of concepts go wasted because like I said, Toei would have a good idea and not have any good way of telling the story behind the idea.

I'll give them credit for having bigger ambitious s than Toriyama but that doesn't mean anything when the execution is shoddy. It's probably a factor in why people are more forgiving of Zs faults; Toriyama keeps things simple. And most of the Z "bad wiritng" you're continually bringing up again seems to be with you just not jiving with the way the characters have always been.

And then GT takes the extreme "Nobody matters but Goku" stuff that was already weighing down the late stages of the Buu saga and takes it even further. And then all of the hollow nostalgia stuff they lean on...even the first arc is just a bunch of hollow member berries of the first DB arc without the weird, cynical Toriyama charm.

And so on top of the plot holes that doom it's stories from the start, GT commits the worst sin of just being boring and barren.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Aug 20, 2024 8:24 am

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:11 pm I just don't buy into the "I hate GT because it has bad writing" argument, or the argument about plot-holes, inconsistencies, etc. Dragon Ball always had that. Whether the examples I gave qualify or not, it had those, so it kind of sounds hypocritical and childish to condemn the show for these things.

I feel like a lot of the hate it gets is just the fandom not knowing how to express its feelings towards it. Admittedly, GT tones down the fighting in favor of soap opera sentimentality and wacky shenanigans, something that would be more in place with other Toei shows like Sailor Moon, and most of the fandom took that as a fatal sin.
I think there are a lot of different reasons fans don't like GT. "Because Toriyama-sama didn't write it" "because it's boring" "because everyone else does" "because I saw the Funimation reversioning with a stupid rap, terribad Batman Beyond rip off score, and a super duper serious business borderline self parody narrator"

I kind of have to go with the consensus that GT had great ideas but terrible execution. It's far more ambitious than anything Toriyama ever wrote. When Toriyama sent the characters to space it was a monotonous looking planet where the locals all look the same and the bad guys conveniently already have 5 of the 7 dragon balls. When GT sent the characters off into space there was a whole exploration of different unique worlds. It's just a shame the whole thing was so so boring

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:20 am

GT is a fighting show with boring, dull, uninspired and plain bad fights. People can overlook many flaws if the excitement is there when a conflict is about to be resolved. It is not in GT, most of the fights are forgettable or make the characters look like it's their first fight ever.

Even the amazing SS4 has so little to write home about, his greatest fight was a ki blast fest with a giant ape.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by tonysoprano300 » Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:15 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:02 pm
tonysoprano300 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 8:30 pm To be clear I only brought up the Gero thing to illustrate that even if you want to argue that these are exactly the type of characters who would risk the world for a good fight, they’re actions are still a bit nonsensical even within that framework. Just in that they walked in completely blind, and did no meaningful preparation whatsoever and as martial artists they should pay their opponents enough respect to actually prepare for them. Hell even Bulma seemed to be surprised to learn that Gero was part of the Red Ribbon Army after the 3 year time skip. But similar to GT, they can’t operate that way because if they did it would ruin the surprise and the chase after Gero wouldnt happen and they wouldn’t fall victim to android 19s absorption abilities. So its plot imo
But what makes you think these are the kind of characters to go to their local library to do research on Dr.Gero? Maybe Bulma but she was pretty much resigned to "I gave my suggestion to nip this in the bud before it can happen, nobody's gonna listen whatever" and I guess Gohan, but he's also like 7 and just happy to spend time with his dad and Uncle Piccolo.

Also not sure what research would have told them 19 was designed to absorb chi.
I feel like every martial artist would want to know the strengths and weaknesses of their opponent, even in real life people take months to prepare for a fight. Why deliberately put yourself at an extreme disadvantage? They have always been pragmatic in the realm of battle, you’re saying we can’t expect even that?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:42 am

tonysoprano300 wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:15 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:02 pm
tonysoprano300 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 8:30 pm To be clear I only brought up the Gero thing to illustrate that even if you want to argue that these are exactly the type of characters who would risk the world for a good fight, they’re actions are still a bit nonsensical even within that framework. Just in that they walked in completely blind, and did no meaningful preparation whatsoever and as martial artists they should pay their opponents enough respect to actually prepare for them. Hell even Bulma seemed to be surprised to learn that Gero was part of the Red Ribbon Army after the 3 year time skip. But similar to GT, they can’t operate that way because if they did it would ruin the surprise and the chase after Gero wouldnt happen and they wouldn’t fall victim to android 19s absorption abilities. So its plot imo
But what makes you think these are the kind of characters to go to their local library to do research on Dr.Gero? Maybe Bulma but she was pretty much resigned to "I gave my suggestion to nip this in the bud before it can happen, nobody's gonna listen whatever" and I guess Gohan, but he's also like 7 and just happy to spend time with his dad and Uncle Piccolo.

Also not sure what research would have told them 19 was designed to absorb chi.
I feel like every martial artist would want to know the strengths and weaknesses of their opponent, even in real life people take months to prepare for a fight. Why deliberately put yourself at an extreme disadvantage? They have always been pragmatic in the realm of battle, you’re saying we can’t expect even that?
When has Dragon Ball ever been that kind of series though? All their "research" on the Saiyans was using what they already knew about Goku (weakness is the tail, turns into big monkey at the full moon). At the tournaments the characters never did research on their opponents, they were just told things by more plugged in characters like Yamucha and Roshi. None of which was about their weaknesses just "hey that guy you're gonna fight is really strong and actually won the martial arts competition behind his local Mcdonalds or something"

So, yes, I am saying you can't expect even that because nothing about the series up to that points gives you any reason to think they would.

Cyborgs kill us? We train hard for 3 years so they don't. Probably.

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