Anyone else disappointed with the whole new cell max, gohan beast, orange piccolo etc

[LoganForkHands73]

Toriyama is no stranger to excessive designs despite some arguments to the contrary so I'm kinda here for it as well. While their implementation into the story is a whole topic in itself, I can reflect on the designs and how well they're utilised overall.

Orange Piccolo is a great example of a hulking, monstrous transformation used effectively, especially from a cinematic angle. That scene of Gamma #2 impotently flailing at a completely rigid, unmoving Piccolo wouldn't have been nearly as effective if he wasn't towering over the android superhero. The ominous Rembrandt lighting when Gamma looks up at this behemoth and realises how badly he's fucked up is the cherry on the cake. There are only a couple aspects of the form I'm not so keen about. First, although the transformation has to be a radical change, I do wish Piccolo kept some of his original facial structure, the square lantern jaw is maybe a bit too much. Second, his arms being a different shade to the rest of his skin is weird.

Gohan Beast obviously cribs from Gohan's original Super Saiyan 2 transformation. There are definitely some design shortcomings, but like Orange Piccolo, Beast is overall presented in a cool and effective way. The directors seemed to understand that Beast is a form that looks best when it's shot from a distance, as that naturally emphasises the similarities to the younger Gohan's SS2 form, looking tiny yet invincible against a much larger foe. Up close, the massive platinum hairdo definitely looks goofier. If we're talking excess, it doesn't get much more excessive than this. The buckets of fanart and the recent official art from Toyotaro have given the form more cred in my eyes.

As always, I'd love to read more insight into the design process behind the forms and who exactly came up with which ideas. I used to be skeptical of this, but it's entirely possible that Beast was an intentional Chekhov Gun calling back to Gohan's wish for a new ultimate form way back in the Universe Survival arc, which was never fulfilled in the anime. If so, no doubt a suggestion from the higher-ups at Toei, because there's no way that Toriyama would care about that detail. I think it's unlikely that Toriyama has written anything at all for Gohan since the Resurrection 'F' movie.

[Mr Baggins]

At the end of the day, all this shit is nostalgia bait. Dragon Ball ended in 1995. Sequel/spin-off Dragon Ball naturally has to riff on its progenitor to some degree; otherwise just make something else, which is exactly what the author had been doing occasionally in the years following its conclusion.

The distinction lies in whether it's cheaply or effectively written, and if there's enough tonal likeness to make it fun and interesting in the same way the original run was fun and interesting. Since Toriyama, as the creator, has the best grasp of that, it tends to be the difference between the pre and post 2013 post-DB eras.

I like Orange Piccolo because he's a hideous monster. He's there to look menacing, to act as a foil to the Gammas who are gallant superheroes but really only superficially. I would have liked Gohan Beast if that form's role in the story was as flippant as its design, else it pretty much is just a straightforward throwback to the iconography of the Cell Games without the substance. I don't like Cell Max because he and most of his climax are as retrogressed as retro gets.

Super Hero is an interesting case study because it has a whole spectrum of good and bad execution in this regard. But to say that it's all bad, I think, is missing the forest for the trees.

[GurixDr34]

I miss mystic Gohan i think Gohan should have stayed with that transformation and as for Cell Max i would have preferred that they have used Android 13 instead

[Jord]

Gohan Beast did look like a design you would see in fanfics around 2001. A lot of stuff from Super is simply repurposing stuff or designs from Z in order to appeal and overlook the bad writing.

Bringing back the Pilaf gang, Future Trunks, repeating Vegetas Buu sacrifice, bringing back Vegeto, Gogeta, Freeza etc.
Guess what? Gohan has been lacking in training again. Time to retain his powers. Has been a trope since Z but that doesn't make it less tiring.
Remember Gohan's SSJ transformation? Here you can see it again, this time against some sort of Cell clone.

[Hulk10]

I hate how the current designs for all the strongest characters except Goku (Broly, Piccolo, Vegeta, and Gohan) are now all intentionally big and/or monstrous.

It honestly doesn't seem very Dragon Ball to me.

I actually appreciate this after more than a half decade of very streamlined designs. We're now back in the Super Saiyan 3 and 4-inspired "Screw it, get ugly" realm again, and I'm kind of here for it, just as I was for the streamlined looks when they were still refreshing.

We just need that SSJ4 recanonized (they can call it whatever they want) and I'll be ready accept another 10 more modern-Toriyama stick-figure designs in a martial arts fighting manga. But seriously, they are often just more exciting than streamlined recolors... even the original SSJ wasn't a barebones recolor but a new L'oreal hairdo as well. It's exciting visually, no grand philosophy here

I really want more Super Saiyan 4 advancements as the Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Li.mit Breaker didn't allow Goku Xeno to fully match Ultra Instinct Goku. I want to see a Super Saiyan form that reaches Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego level.

[omaro34]

I see nothing wrong with Piccolo getting upgrades in power. Characters in the past received insane power ups. Didn't Freeza go from Super Saiyan level to rivalling the gods in 4 months training? Didn't Android 17 go from where he was in the Cell arc to fighting Blue formed Goku?

If anyone deserves it, Piccolo would be at the top of the list. Strange thing to complain about, its nothing new.

[TechExpert2021]

I've always found Son Gohan Beast, Power Awakening Piccolo, and Orange Piccolo to be the worst DB transformations ever, along with most transformations from DBS. These transformations have been pulled out of nowhere and have never been explained.

Cell Max is just a dumber version of Cell and is like Bio-Broly. His design is ugly and the name itself is stupid (the name sounds like an Apple product name).

[Gashaponista]

I've always found Son Gohan Beast, Power Awakening Piccolo, and Orange Piccolo to be the worst DB transformations ever, along with most transformations from DBS. These transformations have been pulled out of nowhere and have never been explained.

Cell Max is just a dumber version of Cell and is like Bio-Broly. His design is ugly and the name itself is stupid (the name sounds like an Apple product name).

What extra explanation could be given for another burst of rage and a state provided by a magical dragon?
And if Cell Max name makes you angry, you never understood Tori's ridiculous sense of humor.

[TechExpert2021]

I've always found Son Gohan Beast, Power Awakening Piccolo, and Orange Piccolo to be the worst DB transformations ever, along with most transformations from DBS. These transformations have been pulled out of nowhere and have never been explained.

Cell Max is just a dumber version of Cell and is like Bio-Broly. His design is ugly and the name itself is stupid (the name sounds like an Apple product name).

What extra explanation could be given for another burst of rage and a state provided by a magical dragon?
And if Cell Max name makes you angry, you never understood Tori's ridiculous sense of humor.

It's not that I never understand Toriyama's sense of humor. It's because Dragon Ball Super has too many transformations and most of them are just lazy recolors (Super Saiyan Rainbow, anyone?). Some of them (I should have not mentioned most of them) are pulled out of nowhere and were never explained (with SSJ Rage, SSJ Blue Evolution, and Son Gohan Beast being the worst offenders). Also, Toriyama from the 2010s and 2020s was not like the Toriyama from the 1980s and 1990s.

[ZombieVito]

I've always found Son Gohan Beast, Power Awakening Piccolo, and Orange Piccolo to be the worst DB transformations ever, along with most transformations from DBS. These transformations have been pulled out of nowhere and have never been explained.

Cell Max is just a dumber version of Cell and is like Bio-Broly. His design is ugly and the name itself is stupid (the name sounds like an Apple product name).

What extra explanation could be given for another burst of rage and a state provided by a magical dragon?
And if Cell Max name makes you angry, you never understood Tori's ridiculous sense of humor.

It's not that I never understand Toriyama's sense of humor. It's because Dragon Ball Super has too many transformations and most of them are just lazy recolors (Super Saiyan Rainbow, anyone?). Some of them (I should have not mentioned most of them) are pulled out of nowhere and were never explained (with SSJ Rage, SSJ Blue Evolution, and Son Gohan Beast being the worst offenders). Also, Toriyama from the 2010s and 2020s was not like the Toriyama from the 1980s and 1990s.

Explain to me Super Saiyan 2 and 3.

[GokuHater]

What extra explanation could be given for another burst of rage and a state provided by a magical dragon?
And if Cell Max name makes you angry, you never understood Tori's ridiculous sense of humor.

It's not that I never understand Toriyama's sense of humor. It's because Dragon Ball Super has too many transformations and most of them are just lazy recolors (Super Saiyan Rainbow, anyone?). Some of them (I should have not mentioned most of them) are pulled out of nowhere and were never explained (with SSJ Rage, SSJ Blue Evolution, and Son Gohan Beast being the worst offenders). Also, Toriyama from the 2010s and 2020s was not like the Toriyama from the 1980s and 1990s.

Explain to me Super Saiyan 2 and 3.

Actually it's easier than you think. SSJ itself is a legendary (then legendary) state of a Saiyan, who is able to reach highs of strength, not any Saiyan could reach, topped with a great anger and lose of control. It shows shadows of a raging Oozaru but is a much more "epic" form for those who worked hard enough and are able to control ki in such a way.

SSJ2 is a natural evolution - a great rise in strength but the rules are basically the same. However, just raising ki and energy does not take you anywhere as grade 2 and grade 3 are not what a Saiyan should reach for and have more drawbacks than pros.
It takes Goku and Gohan mastering SSJ in a permanent state just to be able to unlock the power which is then called SSJ2.

SSJ3 is yet another evolution in this line but barely achievable by mortals (at least then).
Goku manages to do it while not being alive, however using this power drains his ki big time. The other one was Gotenks just because this was a fusion of 2 beings (and an asspull from Toryiama ) and using it, greatly reduced fusion time.

Are these explanations contrived? Yeah, sometimes. Not always exhaustive? A bit farfetched? Of course they are but at least in its own universe there is logic, rhyme and reason to them. You clearly understand what is what.

But with the Super transformations I don't get that feeling. If SSJ blue is a SSJ with God ki, then is Blue Evolution a Grade 2 with God Ki? Or maybe a SSJ2 with God Ki? Maybe? I have no idea though, the show didn't tell me.

And Rage Trunks? What is it? Is it a SSJ form? Is it God Ki aligned with SSJ? But then how can Trunks even use God Ki without the ritual?
Yeah, Vegeta managed to do it. But wait... How in the first place Vegeta managed to do it? It was established in BoG there has to be a ritual. But then Vegeta did it and... Everybody sort of rolled with it.

Gohan Beast... We don't know what sort of transformation line it is. Is it some sort of Oozaru power? SSJ? God ki? If so, again, how?
It was established in Buu, Gohan has his potential unlocked, stops using Saiyan transformations and his "base" form is known as Mystic Gohan. Then in Super they turn Mystic Gohan into a transformation and add another one on top of that?

Do you see the point? While SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, even SSJ4 were contrived, were narration devices, we at least knew how and why. We logically knew what was going on.
Now we don't. A random power up is introduced in one arc never to be seen again in the next. Super breaks it's own rules.

[SupremeKai25]

"Recolor!!!" complaints are always funny because the beloved and nostalgic SS2 isn't even a recolour, it's literally just some lightning sparkles around Gohan.

SS2 is more lazy and cheap than every single Super so-called "recolor".

It takes Goku and Gohan mastering SSJ in a permanent state just to be able to unlock the power which is then called SSJ2.

Except, this is not stated anywhere and is thus your headcanon. We don't know how Goku attained SSJ2. He had already mastered SSJ in a permanent state in the Cell saga and yet that quite clearly was not enough to tap into a greater power in the tournament.

SSJ2 wasn't even a thing in the Cell saga. It wasn't a separate form that anyone can reach through training, it was a thing specific to Gohan, and it was Super Saiyan Gohan breaking his shell and going full power.

Then Goku is able to asspull SSJ2 himself, which cheapens Gohan's accomplishment and the entire arc because Goku had that power in him all along and so Gohan really wasn't that special.

Though that's par for the course with Z, a series that managed to turn the "legendary form of myth" into a children's bargain sale.

While SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, even SSJ4 were contrived, were narration devices, we at least knew how and why. We logically knew what was going on.

Actually, we don't know where SSJ4 comes from. Tapping into the primal nature of the beast? SSJ3 already did that and he certainly didn't grow pants or put on emo eyeliner.

[GokuHater]

"Recolor!!!" complaints are always funny because the beloved and nostalgic SS2 isn't even a recolour, it's literally just some lightning sparkles around Gohan.

SS2 is more lazy and cheap than every single Super so-called "recolor".

It takes Goku and Gohan mastering SSJ in a permanent state just to be able to unlock the power which is then called SSJ2.

Except, this is not stated anywhere and is thus your headcanon. We don't know how Goku attained SSJ2. He had already mastered SSJ in a permanent state in the Cell saga and yet that quite clearly was not enough to tap into a greater power in the tournament.

SSJ2 wasn't even a thing in the Cell saga. It wasn't a separate form that anyone can reach through training, it was a thing specific to Gohan, and it was Super Saiyan Gohan breaking his shell and going full power.

Then Goku is able to asspull SSJ2 himself, which cheapens Gohan's accomplishment and the entire arc because Goku had that power in him all along and so Gohan really wasn't that special.

Though that's par for the course with Z, a series that managed to turn the "legendary form of myth" into a children's bargain sale.

While SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, even SSJ4 were contrived, were narration devices, we at least knew how and why. We logically knew what was going on.

Actually, we don't know where SSJ4 comes from. Tapping into the primal nature of the beast? SSJ3 already did that and he certainly didn't grow pants or put on emo eyeliner.

While I agree with the first part - you are actually right. It is a bit of a headcannon. I always assumed as a kid that only after they managed to master SSJ, they were ready to unlock deeper depths. Kind of like in real life where sometimes it's necessary to master or hone a skill to continue progressing with this skill on a higher level. But it has never been actually stated anywhere in the story so point taken.

I do not agree however with the latter part. We know exactly how SSJ4 is created - and the rule applies to at least 2 sayians we see in the series. Sayians with strengths (at least?) on par with SSJ must turn Ozzaru and get they're consciousness back in some way or another. Yeah, this isn't very detailed maybe but it's at least something more than Trunks Rage or Blue Evolution. Now the question how to turn to Golden Ozzaru is more inconsistent, as we also never get an answer. Why did Goku turn gold as Ozzaru? Why was Goku golden from the start whereas Vegeta was an "ordinary Ozzaru" at first? This is a better example of a form without explanation.

Also the scene with Ozzaru when turning SSJ3 was anime only and I do believe the manga did not allude to Ozzaru strength then.

[The Monkey King]

What extra explanation could be given for another burst of rage and a state provided by a magical dragon?

I think the issue most people have with DBS transformations isn't necessarily due to a lack of explanation, it's that they lack thematic relevance with the story being told.
They're more a shallow means to an end to garner cheap hype and fan service rather than tools to tell a more compelling story or give depth to the characters.

Like Orange Piccolo is supposed to represent his pride/heritage as a Namekian, but why though? Not much of Super Hero is about Piccolo's life as a Namekian, there's Karin incorrectly calling his Kami and there's Gamma 2 incorrectly calling him Demon king Piccolo... perhaps there could've more exploration on this if Gohan wasn't shoehorned into being the co-star.

Beast Gohan is supposed to be the culmination of Gohan getting rid of his laziness and complacency. But Beast in of itself contradicts this plot point. Gohan didn't need to train at all, a couple rage boosts and he's the strongest character in the series again.

The RRA creating more androids does nothing to justify these transformations on a deeper narrative level, it's underwhelming story telling. When I see these transformations I feel nothing.

This is unlike the build up to super saiyan 1 and 2 from the original series. SSJ1 is portrayed as the pinnacle of what it means to be a cruel, bloodthirsty saiyan warrior, the only thing that can defeat Freeza the tyrant who wiped out most of the saiyans because he feared the super saiyan. The story foreshadows that Goku will achieve it, but he may have to sacrifice who he is in order to do so. That's why Goku's speech to Freeza is so iconic, he did awaken the form due to anger and violence but his heart is still pure. He is the super saiyan but he is still Son Goku not Kakarot.

SSJ2 isn't as well done but it comes at the conclusion of an arc that began with the Son of Vegeta killing Freeza, it's an arc setting up the next generation of saiyan defenders of Earth. The androids of the RRA leave the saiyans no choice but to truly surpass the SSJ level, as foreshadowed since he headbutted Raditz this saiyan is going to be the son of Goku.

Even the other ascended saiyan forms speak to the nature of the characters. Trunks using Grade III represents his inexperience and naivety, Vegeta using Grade II represents that he may not be as talented as Goku but he's still a pragmatic fighter as Cell praises him for not even attempting to use the useless Grade III form, Goku using Grade IV shows just how much of a martial arts genius he is. He's taken the wild super saiyan form and combined it with the martial arts mastery and philosophy he learnt on Earth.

SSJ3 was a lolBuuSaga asspull but it wasn't even too relevant in defeating Kid Buu, it wasn't given that reward because it didn't deserve it, it had no further narrative ties to the Buu saga as a whole (but maybe it did considering how much of a mess that arc was lol)

And if Cell Max name makes you angry, you never understood Tori's ridiculous sense of humor.

Gamma 2's holographic onomatopoeia explosions >>>>>> whatever "joke" Toriyama was trying to tell with Cell Max

He's just the other half of the cheap SSJ2 vs Cell nostalgia bait rehashing that served as the hollow climax of SuperHero
Toriyama making Beast Gohan and Cell Max look like absolute eyesores as a way to make fun of how ridiculous the whole thing was is too sad for me to find funny.

[ZombieVito]

It's not that I never understand Toriyama's sense of humor. It's because Dragon Ball Super has too many transformations and most of them are just lazy recolors (Super Saiyan Rainbow, anyone?). Some of them (I should have not mentioned most of them) are pulled out of nowhere and were never explained (with SSJ Rage, SSJ Blue Evolution, and Son Gohan Beast being the worst offenders). Also, Toriyama from the 2010s and 2020s was not like the Toriyama from the 1980s and 1990s.

Explain to me Super Saiyan 2 and 3.

Actually it's easier than you think. SSJ itself is a legendary (then legendary) state of a Saiyan, who is able to reach highs of strength, not any Saiyan could reach, topped with a great anger and lose of control. It shows shadows of a raging Oozaru but is a much more "epic" form for those who worked hard enough and are able to control ki in such a way.

SSJ2 is a natural evolution - a great rise in strength but the rules are basically the same. However, just raising ki and energy does not take you anywhere as grade 2 and grade 3 are not what a Saiyan should reach for and have more drawbacks than pros.
It takes Goku and Gohan mastering SSJ in a permanent state just to be able to unlock the power which is then called SSJ2.

SSJ3 is yet another evolution in this line but barely achievable by mortals (at least then).
Goku manages to do it while not being alive, however using this power drains his ki big time. The other one was Gotenks just because this was a fusion of 2 beings (and an asspull from Toryiama ) and using it, greatly reduced fusion time.

Are these explanations contrived? Yeah, sometimes. Not always exhaustive? A bit farfetched? Of course they are but at least in its own universe there is logic, rhyme and reason to them. You clearly understand what is what.

But with the Super transformations I don't get that feeling. If SSJ blue is a SSJ with God ki, then is Blue Evolution a Grade 2 with God Ki? Or maybe a SSJ2 with God Ki? Maybe? I have no idea though, the show didn't tell me.

And Rage Trunks? What is it? Is it a SSJ form? Is it God Ki aligned with SSJ? But then how can Trunks even use God Ki without the ritual?
Yeah, Vegeta managed to do it. But wait... How in the first place Vegeta managed to do it? It was established in BoG there has to be a ritual. But then Vegeta did it and... Everybody sort of rolled with it.

Gohan Beast... We don't know what sort of transformation line it is. Is it some sort of Oozaru power? SSJ? God ki? If so, again, how?
It was established in Buu, Gohan has his potential unlocked, stops using Saiyan transformations and his "base" form is known as Mystic Gohan. Then in Super they turn Mystic Gohan into a transformation and add another one on top of that?

Do you see the point? While SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, even SSJ4 were contrived, were narration devices, we at least knew how and why. We logically knew what was going on.
Now we don't. A random power up is introduced in one arc never to be seen again in the next. Super breaks it's own rules.

This is riddled with headcanon.

[SupremeKai25]

While I agree with the first part - you are actually right. It is a bit of a headcannon. I always assumed as a kid that only after they managed to master SSJ, they were ready to unlock deeper depths. Kind of like in real life where sometimes it's necessary to master or hone a skill to continue progressing with this skill on a higher level. But it has never been actually stated anywhere in the story so point taken.

So why Goku didn't achieve SSJ2 during the Cell Games? I mean he had perfected the SSJ form too.

Sayians with strengths (at least?) on par with SSJ must turn Ozzaru and get they're consciousness back in some way or another.

You don't sound very sure about this, and I understand.

Because this dude was a conscious Oozaru and he certainly didn't turn SSJ4.

Also the scene with Ozzaru when turning SSJ3 was anime only and I do believe the manga did not allude to Ozzaru strength then.

This doesn't matter, because GT quite obviously exists in the Toei-verse, along with the Z Anime and Movies (Cooler and co. appear in the Super 17 arc).

I mean the connection to the beast was retroactively added by Toei because it made sense. SSJ3 lacks eyebrows and has a mane because he is more bestial and primal, because he is connected to the beast nature. Even the added effects during the transformation scene made it look like Goku was breaking through soem sort of shell. Now SSJ4 comes out and it's basically the same concept except with emo eyeliner.

SSJ4 isn't nearly as "original" or "creative" as people think.

SSJ3 did it first.

[GokuHater]

About the SSJ2 and Goku part... Dude, I just said I do agree with what you said so what's the point in continuing?

As for SSJ3, I don't think so. Never it is stated in the manga or anime that SSJ3 is using the power of Ozzaru or utilizing it in any way. So if we are talking about headcannons, this whole part is basically YOUR headcannon

I don't deny that maybe someone at Toei thought it would be a nice idea to use this, hence the animation of Ozzaru during the transformation (and maybe also the Ozzaru roar in Japanese in these transformations) and then after time they decided to do it sort of again but better with SSJ4. But no. This is just speculation. Broly using Ozzaru power in the new movie is a lot more convincing, even Goku when finishing of King Piccolo.

Also I clearly wrote "sayians with strengths at least on pair with super Saiyan" so why do you use Vegeta as an argument? This is my point. In this point in time Vegeta did not transform even though he had a consciousness so it's logical that to transform into SSJ4 one must be above his level? How much above? We don't really know. We could speculate SSJ is enough based on the 'golden ozzaru' in Vegeta's head when Goku beat Recoome but this again is guessing and anime only scene.
So the level of strength is very vague here. Not on the level of what the hell Gohan Beast is anyway and that's my point all along.

[Deadpoolio]

Then we have Cell max now.... da fk??? Why do they keep bringing back old villans?

Because ironically Resurrection F and Broly which advertised they were bringing back old movies made more money at the box office than Battle of Gods and Super Hero (which in the advertising didn't show Cell Max).

It sold. The arc with the best TV ratings was the Trunks Saga where they brought back Trunks.

[Jord]

Nostalgia sells. It's the driving force behind recent DB stuff.
Remember Frieza? Broly? Future Trunks? Cell? Gohan going SSJ2? Pilaf? Here it is again but "new". While critically bankrupt, I can't disagree with their strategy. Why design a new big bad if you can just repurpose Cell?

[dbs fanboy]

I don't see Cell Max as Cell but I agree he was just the *insert huge obstacle bad guy*

Piccolo deserves a W after all this time and it is fitting that the Dragon Balls gave a bonus to their creator.

I'm fine with Gohan's new form mainly because in the ToP he already implied he was shooting for it, and because I also don't take it too seriously.

I find it hilarious that Piccolo triggered Gohan's angry button the whole movie.

I find it more funny that it's literally GOHAN BLANCO
LATIN AMERICANS MADE IT CANON