"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[obiwan23s]

I hope Vegeta finally gets the kill against Frieza

I would be fine with it if that happened, but the more I think about it, it seems more likely that they will fuse into Gogeta to do it.

They'll probably both achieve mastery of their "Ultra" forms but it won't be enough, making the fusion necessary. I feel like this seed was planted in the DBS Broly movie.

[Deadpoolio]

There's a lot more they can do with the series than bring Frieza back again especially with him being an antagonist only fairly recently also.

They can come up with plenty other stories.

[SupremeKai25]

There's a lot more they can do with the series than bring Frieza back again especially with him being an antagonist only fairly recently also.

They can come up with plenty other stories.

They can, but unfortunately they could just make a second Broly movie and cash in on the 1990s childhood nostalgia. Broly was undeservedly the most successful Dragon Ball movie ever and it's literally just a lazy childhood nostalgia cash-grab.

I'd love more original villains like Zamasu and Moro, but... well... people are blinded by childhood nostalgia. Why even bother when you can get much more hype and money by bringing Freeza/Cell/Broly back for the 30th time.

[Deadpoolio]

There's a lot more they can do with the series than bring Frieza back again especially with him being an antagonist only fairly recently also.

They can come up with plenty other stories.

They can, but unfortunately they could just make a second Broly movie and cash in on the 1990s childhood nostalgia. Broly was undeservedly the most successful Dragon Ball movie ever and it's literally just a lazy childhood nostalgia cash-grab.

I'd love more original villains like Zamasu and Moro, but... well... people are blinded by childhood nostalgia. Why even bother when you can get much more hype and money by bringing Freeza/Cell/Broly back for the 30th time.

Well it's a different medium so different rules apply. Movies are made to make the most amount of money possible, usually as quickly as possible. Broly being a popular character makes him a draw when compared to an original villain like the Gammas that nobody knows it has any reason to be excited about.

But when it comes to the manga they can come up with more original ideas.

[kemuri07]

There is something super funny about bitching about childhood nostalgia..

And then putting over Zamasu, a villain in an arc that is entirely about pandering to fans nostalgia for Future Trunks.

I only kinda want a Black Freeza arc if only because it’s a way to thematically bring everything full circle. And honestly I’d probably prefer a movie than a year long arc because well..I really don’t want to go through another year long arc.

Anything else is just window dressing. Nothing matters because nothing can change. I am more than ok with DBS ending on that final shot of piccolo. Let the franchise die with some dignity already.

[FortuneSSJ]

Dragon Ball will have a stage at Jump Festa event in December. Red stages is for series that reveal new information

https://x.com/DbsHype/status/1829030502868889825

[capsulecorp]

Don't we know that Freeza survives, due to Vegeta's return to his service in Neko-Majin?

[SupremeKai25]

There is something super funny about bitching about childhood nostalgia..

And then putting over Zamasu, a villain in an arc that is entirely about pandering to fans nostalgia for Future Trunks.

I only kinda want a Black Freeza arc if only because it’s a way to thematically bring everything full circle. And honestly I’d probably prefer a movie than a year long arc because well..I really don’t want to go through another year long arc.

Anything else is just window dressing. Nothing matters because nothing can change. I am more than ok with DBS ending on that final shot of piccolo. Let the franchise die with some dignity already.

You know that an arc is nostalgia-pandering only if the villain is an old one, Yes? If the villain is new, the arc cannot be nostalgia-pandering, because the villain and the conflict are new. As per usual, it all depends on the villain.

How does Black Freeza arc "bring everything full circle"? Half of DBS wasn't even about Freeza. The only storyline that will bring the Super storyline to "full circle" will be a rematch between Goku and Beerus, because that is what EVERYTHING in Super has been building up to.

[miguelnuva1]

I'm still half hoping that 17's wish is going to be revealed to have accidently revived u13-u18.

[Vegard Aune]

The last time in Super that it really could have gotten away with just letting Freeza be was... the end of the Tournament of Power. Even there his return to life was presented in a pretty overtly ominous fashion, but it could perhaps be brushed off as like "Well this was a small price to pay for saving all of reality otherwise." But that wasn't where we left it. His story has continued to develop since then. He came back for revenge again in Broly, swore that he would come back yet again at the end of Broly, had an entire arc that was essentially just buildup to him coming back stronger than ever... And then all he does upon coming back stronger than ever is assert his dominance and then leave? That is... not in any way an ending. It would be like if the last time we ever saw Piccolo was his introduction at the tournament when we first see his fully-grown self. When we last left this guy the vibe was very much "Oh no how are Goku and Vegeta ever going to overcome this new obstacle?! Everything else they've faced before pales in comparison to this new threat!!"

Quite frankly, the question of whether a third Freeza fight would even be any interesting to read is kinda beside the point here. I'm entirely open to the idea that Toyotaro could do it and it's an absolute snorefest. But it is where the story has been going for the past six years. Quite frankly the story has hammered home the idea that a VS Freeza: Round 3 (or 4 if you count Trunks's introduction) is definitely coming harder than they've pushed the idea of a rematch with Beerus. I mean if Toyotaro or Toei decide that they want to give Super a definitive ending then ideally both should happen, (though really, they could easily just make the Beerus rematch a punchline where Goku wins easily because as it turns out he actually surpassed Beerus ages ago) but the story needs to wrap up Freeza more than it needs to wrap up Beerus.

[JulieYBM]

I think we have a tendency to focus too much on "What are the stakes for Gokuu?" and not really ask, "What are the stakes for Freeza?" because Freeza is the one here with the most capacity for change. It is through Freeza that we can experience a new type of story and character arc, so I think that if we're going to get a new "Freeza attempts to defeat Son Gokuu" story then it has to be for all the chips on the table. Ultimately, it really doesn't make sense to end such a story with Freeza yet again back in Hell, either. I think we need to finally see the story where Freeza finds something new to do with his life. Does it somehow 'threaten' his uniqueness by bringing him more in line with other previous antagonistic figures? I suppose, but who cares if there's a fun story to be told? It isn't like Freeza's decades of real world status as an antagonist are going to go away.

[Zephyr]

Quite frankly the story has hammered home the idea that a VS Freeza: Round 3 (or 4 if you count Trunks's introduction) is definitely coming harder than they've pushed the idea of a rematch with Beerus. I mean if Toyotaro or Toei decide that they want to give Super a definitive ending then ideally both should happen, (though really, they could easily just make the Beerus rematch a punchline where Goku wins easily because as it turns out he actually surpassed Beerus ages ago) but the story needs to wrap up Freeza more than it needs to wrap up Beerus.

I think it's pretty common actually for rivals to not get all of the rematches that both the audience and the characters might hope for. Tenshinhan never gets a rematch against Goku after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, despite clearly planning for one while training with Kaio. We got to see Piccolo use a technique he'd planned to use on Goku, the Makankosappo, against Raditz, suggesting he was also eager for a rematch some day, and we never get to see that (this would have been a cool chapter or two during the 3 years of training for the Androids). Vegeta gets a rematch with Goku in the Boo arc, but it gets cut short (and in the Kanzenban ending, he's still thirsting for another one).

There's also the general idea in Dragon Ball that there's always a bigger fish, always another goal to strive for. Finally, the original comic ended with the idea that adventures will continue for the characters in-universe, the audience will simply never see them.

Taken together, I think Super ending with Freeza both as a new "goal" for the characters to some day reach, and a rematch against him being something we never get to see, would be fairly on brand. Things not being all wrapped up in a tidy bow would be in the original comic's spirit.

On the other hand, Freeza could simply lose to someone who is then defeated by Goku, which is another traditional way DB handles surpassing rivals without depicting it in a rematch. This was arguably the intent in the Tournament of Power, with regards to Beerus, despite seeming to have walked back on that since.

[Vegard Aune]

I think it's pretty common actually for rivals to not get all of the rematches that both the audience and the characters might hope for. Tenshinhan never gets a rematch against Goku after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, despite clearly planning for one while training with Kaio. We got to see Piccolo use a technique he'd planned to use on Goku, the Makankosappo, against Raditz, suggesting he was also eager for a rematch some day, and we never get to see that (this would have been a cool chapter or two during the 3 years of training for the Androids). Vegeta gets a rematch with Goku in the Boo arc, but it gets cut short (and in the Kanzenban ending, he's still thirsting for another one).

The difference with all of those is that none of those ended on the villain going away, undergoing an utterly absurd powerup, coming back, outright curbstomping every other character present, before going "Meh, you are beneath me now, I have better things to do" and leaving. Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Vegeta all gradually just sort of either outright abandon the idea of getting a rematch, or otherwise put it to the side enough to where it's more just a thing they would "like to do". It's true that a lot of characters are left either wanting a rematch with Goku or Goku wanting a rematch with them, but this is not that. I can absolutely buy the idea that neither Toriyama nor Toyotaro ever planned to bring back Jiren after the Tournament of Power, for example, and also that we are probably not gonna see Hit again even though he and Goku never really settled the store. But none of them exited the story on the note of "Hey look I'm like several orders of magnitude more powerful than you now! *effortlessly wipes the floor with our leads* ...But you were not the reason I came here today so I'll let you off the hook for now and we'll resume this later." Black Freeza is unique among DB antagonists in that, at the moment, his last appearance is one that both re-establishes him as an irredeemably evil monster who will cause unfathomable suffering across the universe until he is stopped somehow, and makes him out to be a challenge that our heroes at this moment have no hope of beating. We basically left him in essentially the same situation that we are introduced to most villains in; The "Oh no he's beyond anything we've ever seen before how will we ever defeat this enemy?" phase.

On the other hand, Freeza could simply lose to someone who is then defeated by Goku, which is another traditional way DB handles surpassing rivals without depicting it in a rematch. This was arguably the intent in the Tournament of Power, with regards to Beerus, despite seeming to have walked back on that since.

That would indeed be an ending for him. Not sure I would find it a particularly satisfying one after so many years of buildup but... it's an option if they concluded that just flat-out "We have to defeat Freeza again. Again." would not be an engaging storyline.

[capsulecorp]

I think we have a tendency to focus too much on "What are the stakes for Gokuu?" and not really ask, "What are the stakes for Freeza?" because Freeza is the one here with the most capacity for change. It is through Freeza that we can experience a new type of story and character arc, so I think that if we're going to get a new "Freeza attempts to defeat Son Gokuu" story then it has to be for all the chips on the table. Ultimately, it really doesn't make sense to end such a story with Freeza yet again back in Hell, either. I think we need to finally see the story where Freeza finds something new to do with his life. Does it somehow 'threaten' his uniqueness by bringing him more in line with other previous antagonistic figures? I suppose, but who cares if there's a fun story to be told? It isn't like Freeza's decades of real world status as an antagonist are going to go away.

I think this is exactly the right way to think about this... except, Freeza already has changed, dramatically, as demonstrated when he spared Goku and Vegeta in his final appearance. This act of mercy is exactly what we've seen from Goku time and time again, and its that choice - not Freeza's inevitable increase in power - that is the most important element of this scene.

[The Monkey King]

Stuff

The foundation of Dragon Ball's revival era is the promise of a rematch between Goku and Beerus...

It's been over 11 years and no such rematch is even being hinted at anymore, it sounds like you might be setting yourself up for (more) disappointment.

[Zephyr]

Black Freeza is unique among DB antagonists in that, at the moment, his last appearance is one that both re-establishes him as an irredeemably evil monster who will cause unfathomable suffering across the universe until he is stopped somehow

I had a very different takeaway. He swiftly beats Goku and Vegeta and then leaves. He doesn't even express any malice or ill-will towards the two heaters he didn't kill. He came here to kill Elec, someone who was planning to kill him; he also killed Gas, someone who attacked him with intent to kill. Hardly the actions of a saint, and I'd certainly not describe him as a friend to Goku or Vegeta, but "irredeemably evil monster" doesn't really describe him here. He could still be those things, but it's not something that this chapter does much of anything to re-establish.

That he spent ten years training and says "I couldn't very well keep losing to Saiyans my whole life..." much more saliently shows him for the martial arts rival he now is. At least to me. Because, again, he could simply kill these guys from orbit and be done with it if he wanted to. Or go torture their families while they're off training with Beerus, if he simply wanted to hurt them. Instead, he gave Goku and Vegeta a single gut punch each, and left them alive knowing full well that they can also train and get stronger. It's difficult for me to not read that as both a flex and a sort of challenge.

[LightBing]

If we look at all the characters that were reformed, Freeza doesn't fit the bill. There has been no character development to justify his supposedly change of heart.

He was killed 2.5 times and in each of them, he was hell-bound to murder everyone, specially Goku. Even in the recent Broly movie his murderous ways continue.

As it stands, him sparing Goku and Vegeta is for plot contrivance and to continue the nostalgia pandering than for any actual substance.

[IndieBooToo]

If you honestly think Frieza has not changed and is still as evil and malicious as he was before especially towards Goku and co, then you honestly haven't been paying attention to either the anime or manga. He's not "redeemed" but he's not the same pure enemy from before. After Frieza kicked Goku and Vegeta's asses on Cereal, there was no sense of urgency for them to get strong enough to take Frieza down. They just kept training per usual with the acknowledgement that Frieza is far stronger than them. Neither of them were distressed whatsoever. It's not the same with Zamasu or Moro where Goku and Vegeta had to train in order to take those guys out because unlike post ToP Frieza, those guys were active threats while Frieza's just been minding his business and focusing on rebuilding his empire and powering himself up.

Frieza's a glorified frenemy to Goku and co now. They'll steer clear from him because he's a bad guy but are cordial enough to have some casual conversations now without trying to kill each other and are capable of not trying to kill each other and leave the other alone(i.e Gogeta sparing Frieza and Frieza sparing both Goku and Vegeta).Even potentially team up again if their goals align like back in the ToP.

The moment Frieza teamed up with Goku and co, if should have been obvious that he was going to stick around. So people still thinking "Vegeta is TOTALLY gonna hakai Frieza!!" need to stop living in their bubble and accept the actual reality before them. They're not gonna kill him a third time after going through the trouble of reviving him a second time after teaming up with the heroes to save their universe.

[JulieYBM]

There, I think it's safe to say, two 'era's in Freeza's life: life before Gokuu and life after. I think perhaps better tackling what drove Freeza's paranoia that led him to eradicating the Saiyans would be an interesting story to tell, but if we're to take these two eras in Freeza's life as the basis for a third, ideally 'post-Gokuu revenge' Freeza, I think there's an interesting bow to wrap on what is undoubtedly one of Dragon Ball's most well-known antagonists.

We saw it a bit in the Tournament of Power, but a Freeza that can put aside his hatred of Son Gokuu to work with him to protect his existence is a Freeza capable of some sort of change. A story that pushes Freeza in that direction even more is a story with something to say, I think.

[Koitsukai]

If it wasn't for that panel of Vegeta looking angrily at the sky and that message saying the goal of their training is to defeat Black Freeza, plus the movie implication that Freeza was after Broly or something, then perhaps I could give a little bit of credence to the "oh Freeza's thing is done with, stop dreaming, stories don't have to follow up on what they hint at" take.
I also don't think we would be, or have been ever, for that matter, introduced to a new force that dwarfs the MCs only for that person to be forgotten like he's Tarble or some sort of Armin Tamzarian.
I don't think he is after our boys but after Broly, this could buy Toyo some time when it comes to when his story is told.

Will it be the next arc? well, I don't this series can keep on cramming even more new people in what it was supposed to be a 10-year hiatus of peace, specially when we are so close to EoZ. The fact that more and tougher challenges than in Z happened in this midquel still doesn't sparkle with me. So, the less the better.

Black Freeza's conclusion (killing him, learning he has reached his limit and it has been surpassed, or whatever it's in store for him) seems to be a story best told after the tourney. I wouldn't mind a brief light-hearted arc about the pre and the actual TB, and after EoZ going full force into this new territory with this weirdo in mind.