Unpopular DB opinions

[Zephyr]

With Toriyama, I always have to look at his work with some awareness that I'm probably expending more energy analyzing the characters than he does. Obviously he has the reputation of being a guy who writes based on the vibes and for good reason, because it is what he does to some degree and its not always that well planned.

An example that you brought up earlier was the fact that Goku allowed Freeza to power up to 100%, and that certainly is reckless. But the way Toriyama wrote that entire chain of events gave the impression that this is supposed to be out of character for Goku. To the point where Goku himself suggests that he won’t be able to maintain control over his identity, and Kaio himself laments that real Son Goku is gone in favour of a primitive saiyan beast.

From the audience perspective though, its kind of weird that Toriyama portrayed it that way because we all know that he allowed Vegeta to escape because he wanted to fight him again. This turn of events isn’t really THAT crazy given what we know happened in the saiyan saga but since Toriyama isn’t really the kind of guy who’s going to spend time thinking about these things we are just left with a story that’s operating as though prior events didn’t happen. I understand why the funimation dub changed Goku’s reason for allowing Vegeta to leave, because it allows SSJ Goku to exist in a space that feels more detached from who he was before(Which is what Toriyama was trying to do when he wrote it).

The reason I bring this up is to kind of provide some context into why DB can feel so inconsistent sometimes, when you say that Goku not preparing for the Androids(aside from training) is not something that ever actually has any discernible consequences and thus he wouldn’t regret his decision, I immediately start to wonder “What does Goku perceive as a consequence?”

Why does Goku show regret over not finishing Freeza on Namek? why does he preface that he’s allowing Vegeta to leave even though he knows for a fact that its selfish and wrong? why does he choose to remain dead because he feels as though he’s a bad influence for the Earth?etc.

If the androids destroying West City isn’t a meaningful consequence to Goku, then what is? Because after the beginning of Cell arc, none of the characters ever try to grapple with the fact that they allowed this to happen. There’s not even a throwaway MajinBuuEsque line of Goku being like “Welp maybe I shouldn’t have destroyed the Potara”, and even after he’s killed and makes the decision to stay dead because he did some introspection about his influence on the Earth he never mentions that particular plot point at the beginning despite it being the best example. And Ill give Goku some credit and say that he’s usually aware when he’s screwing up, when he let Vegeta go he knew that it was wrong and he even says that its wrong.

I know the answers to these questions is that Toriyama is writing the story as he goes along and does what he feels is right in the moment, and that’s not always conducive to a coherent story. Id argue its very easy to tell when he’s trying to portray something as a legitimate character flaw vs when he’s trying to get to a particular end. So I guess that’s where my personal(and very subjective) interpretation of the characters comes from

Right, so if I understand you correctly, then it's the lack of admission from Goku that his decision to train instead of attacking Gero early is reckless, that lands this more as a case of Toriyama just trying to get to a particular end rather than portray a character flaw? I can see that, but the fact that Goku's decision there lines up cleanly with past decisions which were more clearly presented as character flaws makes it not really cause for concern to me. Put another way, this still exhibits Goku's main character flaw, even if it's not taking the time to highlight it. We could regard Goku's lack of "I know I'm being selfish, but..." as another missing piece (like what I described with Tenshinhan and Bulma), but I still don't see that as a glaring omission. The story would be better with it, but it's still more than coherent and functional without it.

---

Regarding consequences, I'm specifically referring to the reckless moves backfiring on them. They are told that their whole cadre of fighters get killed by the Androids. They say "fuck it, we ball", train, and take the Androids on. This time, their whole cadre of fighters (sans Goku himself, who was dead originally before the Androids attacked at all) remains alive. They got away with the risk they took, for the most part.

---

Where things get incoherent to me is stuff like the Kaio example. He talks like Goku is behaving wildly out of character in allowing Freeza to powerup and wanting to fight him, and it's presented in a way that makes it seem like Toriyama is trying to speak through Kaio about the matter. Yet, you're right, that this isn't actually out of character. You mention the Vegeta example, and I'll again mention the Piccolo example. There are even multiple instances throughout this very story arc where Goku expresses an interest in fighting Freeza. Based on past (and very recent) words and actions, one would conclude that "the Super Saiyan" is making Son Goku act like....Son Goku!

For me, this goes in the bin alongside just about any attempt by Toriyama to retroactively render martial artist behavior as uniquely Saiyan behavior (in this case, uniquely Super Saiyan behavior). It's a pretty random pivot, and it doesn't gel very well with the first six story arcs, and it's maybe the most egregious example to me of Toriyama's "make it up as I go along" writing-style causing incoherence. Specifically for the Kaio example, it makes him look like he doesn't actually know his own student very well, and I doubt that was Toriyama's intention.

Like, Goku making increasingly reckless moves as he gets stronger still tracks just fine, but the causes and motivations behind those reckless moves that Toriyama (vicariously through various characters) offers are often unnecessary biological determinism. I can't really describe it better than I did in a previous thread:

Might as well have told us through exposition that Goku has no arms, actually, and he never has had them, despite Goku being drawn with arms in that very same chapter.

Though to be clear, while I think the "this is a Saiyan trait!" is deeply unnecessary to the story and causes some unintentional incoherence with the first third of it, the general thrust of Goku's journey (that of a martial artist so committed to the bit that he eventually leaves all of his rivals in the dust) still tracks whether the extraneous fluff of "Saiyan!" is there or not. I guess we could say that Goku's alien ancestry then provides in-universe justification for how he ends up leaving his rivals in the dust, but I don't think that's necessary either. He can be just that good; look at how nobody else learned the Kaio-ken.

That said, Toriyama does make the Saiyan heritage retcon worthwhile in using it to give some gravitas to the Freeza fight, and using it to introduce a new martial arts technique that various characters effectively compete to optimize (Super Saiyan).

[Koitsukai]

Couldn't it be said that Goku choosing to stay dead is a way of him admitting a fuck-up?
Sure, the reasons given point towards NOT that, but those reasons are also false. What Goku is guilty of is not being a villains magnet but being way too confident(this time not even in his own abilities), even though he ends up getting home safe 9/10 times.

After all, he was behind every major dick measuring contest ever, albeit the rest usually dropped their pants too. The authorial intent doesn't seem to be Goku's conduct but it sure could've been. Goku fuck around and found out.

The story probably would've benefit from a better motive for keeping Goku dead, one more related to his reckless behaviour, but like ABED said, they keep getting away with everything for the story to call them out on it, so it never feels like they are avoiding the elephant in the room.

[tonysoprano300]

With Toriyama, I always have to look at his work with some awareness that I'm probably expending more energy analyzing the characters than he does. Obviously he has the reputation of being a guy who writes based on the vibes and for good reason, because it is what he does to some degree and its not always that well planned.

An example that you brought up earlier was the fact that Goku allowed Freeza to power up to 100%, and that certainly is reckless. But the way Toriyama wrote that entire chain of events gave the impression that this is supposed to be out of character for Goku. To the point where Goku himself suggests that he won’t be able to maintain control over his identity, and Kaio himself laments that real Son Goku is gone in favour of a primitive saiyan beast.

From the audience perspective though, its kind of weird that Toriyama portrayed it that way because we all know that he allowed Vegeta to escape because he wanted to fight him again. This turn of events isn’t really THAT crazy given what we know happened in the saiyan saga but since Toriyama isn’t really the kind of guy who’s going to spend time thinking about these things we are just left with a story that’s operating as though prior events didn’t happen. I understand why the funimation dub changed Goku’s reason for allowing Vegeta to leave, because it allows SSJ Goku to exist in a space that feels more detached from who he was before(Which is what Toriyama was trying to do when he wrote it).

The reason I bring this up is to kind of provide some context into why DB can feel so inconsistent sometimes, when you say that Goku not preparing for the Androids(aside from training) is not something that ever actually has any discernible consequences and thus he wouldn’t regret his decision, I immediately start to wonder “What does Goku perceive as a consequence?”

Why does Goku show regret over not finishing Freeza on Namek? why does he preface that he’s allowing Vegeta to leave even though he knows for a fact that its selfish and wrong? why does he choose to remain dead because he feels as though he’s a bad influence for the Earth?etc.

If the androids destroying West City isn’t a meaningful consequence to Goku, then what is? Because after the beginning of Cell arc, none of the characters ever try to grapple with the fact that they allowed this to happen. There’s not even a throwaway MajinBuuEsque line of Goku being like “Welp maybe I shouldn’t have destroyed the Potara”, and even after he’s killed and makes the decision to stay dead because he did some introspection about his influence on the Earth he never mentions that particular plot point at the beginning despite it being the best example. And Ill give Goku some credit and say that he’s usually aware when he’s screwing up, when he let Vegeta go he knew that it was wrong and he even says that its wrong.

I know the answers to these questions is that Toriyama is writing the story as he goes along and does what he feels is right in the moment, and that’s not always conducive to a coherent story. Id argue its very easy to tell when he’s trying to portray something as a legitimate character flaw vs when he’s trying to get to a particular end. So I guess that’s where my personal(and very subjective) interpretation of the characters comes from

Right, so if I understand you correctly, then it's the lack of admission from Goku that his decision to train instead of attacking Gero early is reckless, that lands this more as a case of Toriyama just trying to get to a particular end rather than portray a character flaw? I can see that, but the fact that Goku's decision there lines up cleanly with past decisions which were more clearly presented as character flaws makes it not really cause for concern to me. Put another way, this still exhibits Goku's main character flaw, even if it's not taking the time to highlight it. We could regard Goku's lack of "I know I'm being selfish, but..." as another missing piece (like what I described with Tenshinhan and Bulma), but I still don't see that as a glaring omission. The story would be better with it, but it's still more than coherent and functional without it.

---

Regarding consequences, I'm specifically referring to the reckless moves backfiring on them. They are told that their whole cadre of fighters get killed by the Androids. They say "fuck it, we ball", train, and take the Androids on. This time, their whole cadre of fighters (sans Goku himself, who was dead originally before the Androids attacked at all) remains alive. They got away with the risk they took, for the most part.

---

Where things get incoherent to me is stuff like the Kaio example. He talks like Goku is behaving wildly out of character in allowing Freeza to powerup and wanting to fight him, and it's presented in a way that makes it seem like Toriyama is trying to speak through Kaio about the matter. Yet, you're right, that this isn't actually out of character. You mention the Vegeta example, and I'll again mention the Piccolo example. There are even multiple instances throughout this very story arc where Goku expresses an interest in fighting Freeza. Based on past (and very recent) words and actions, one would conclude that "the Super Saiyan" is making Son Goku act like....Son Goku!

For me, this goes in the bin alongside just about any attempt by Toriyama to retroactively render martial artist behavior as uniquely Saiyan behavior (in this case, uniquely Super Saiyan behavior). It's a pretty random pivot, and it doesn't gel very well with the first six story arcs, and it's maybe the most egregious example to me of Toriyama's "make it up as I go along" writing-style causing incoherence. Specifically for the Kaio example, it makes him look like he doesn't actually know his own student very well, and I doubt that was Toriyama's intention.

Like, Goku making increasingly reckless moves as he gets stronger still tracks just fine, but the causes and motivations behind those reckless moves that Toriyama (vicariously through various characters) offers are often unnecessary biological determinism. I can't really describe it better than I did in a previous thread:

Might as well have told us through exposition that Goku has no arms, actually, and he never has had them, despite Goku being drawn with arms in that very same chapter.

Though to be clear, while I think the "this is a Saiyan trait!" is deeply unnecessary to the story and causes some unintentional incoherence with the first third of it, the general thrust of Goku's journey (that of a martial artist so committed to the bit that he eventually leaves all of his rivals in the dust) still tracks whether the extraneous fluff of "Saiyan!" is there or not. I guess we could say that Goku's alien ancestry then provides in-universe justification for how he ends up leaving his rivals in the dust, but I don't think that's necessary either. He can be just that good; look at how nobody else learned the Kaio-ken.

That said, Toriyama does make the Saiyan heritage retcon worthwhile in using it to give some gravitas to the Freeza fight, and using it to introduce a new martial arts technique that various characters effectively compete to optimize (Super Saiyan).

Kind of, I don’t think characters have to say things explicitly in order for it to be a reasonable interpretation. I just mean that Toriyama usually handles things in a very intentional way and resolves it within a specific timeframe, so like when Gohan is fucking up against Cell for example the story calls attention to Gohans recklessness and its subsequently addressed with the Death of Goku and him feeling guilty over it. There’s a legitimate identifiable through line that you can observe, and the story does bring some kind of closure to it.

The Gero thing feels a little different in that its established then the characters are portrayed to not care, and then the time skip happens and its almost like a complete reset of the story. Bulma was the one who was adamant about finding Gero and stopping him in the first place, but when she shows up later its revealed that she actually knew where the lab was all along and that she didn’t know Gero was part of the RRA. Retroactively making her seem like she didn’t care either, or making it so that Piccolo withheld vital info for no reason.

In terms of the consequences, IIRC Trunks did die. He was brought back ofc but I don’t think the team has ever operated in such a way where they would hand wave someones death because they know DBs exist. When Vegeta killed all those people at the world martial arts tournament, Goku was still very upset despite knowing they can be brought back easily. I also wonder why Goku would only perceive consequences in direct relation to himself or his loved ones, he was very upset when all those people in West City died. He was upset when the royal army was killed by Cell.

I hate to dog on Toriyama too much because despite everything, The Cell arc is very entertaining. There is value in writing based on the vibes because it allows Toriyama to actively sense when the story has stayed in one place for too long and when its time to either take it somewhere else, add another escalatory twist, or even just add a break in the action. The Cell arc has so much going on, there so many twist&turns that keep you hooked,

This is something DBS struggles with mightily, you can easily tell the difference between a product that Toriyama pens himself and one that he just provides bullet points to. Like the Granolah arc for example is so horrendous in that you’re spending almost a year in a single battlefield where Goku and Vegeta endlessly take turns against the bad guys. It was one of the few times I ever actually lost interest in a DB story. Even in a series as fighting centric as DB, it still needs a dramatically evolving story with compelling narrative threads. You can’t just put them in a ring and have them fight non-stop

I do maintain that Toriyama need better outlines for some of his original works in DB, but I wouldn’t change his ability to just feel things out in the moment. Even the Buu arc(despite its many issues) keeps your interest the entire way through

[Cure Dragon 255]

With Toriyama, I always have to look at his work with some awareness that I'm probably expending more energy analyzing the characters than he does. Obviously he has the reputation of being a guy who writes based on the vibes and for good reason, because it is what he does to some degree and its not always that well planned.

An example that you brought up earlier was the fact that Goku allowed Freeza to power up to 100%, and that certainly is reckless. But the way Toriyama wrote that entire chain of events gave the impression that this is supposed to be out of character for Goku. To the point where Goku himself suggests that he won’t be able to maintain control over his identity, and Kaio himself laments that real Son Goku is gone in favour of a primitive saiyan beast.

From the audience perspective though, its kind of weird that Toriyama portrayed it that way because we all know that he allowed Vegeta to escape because he wanted to fight him again. This turn of events isn’t really THAT crazy given what we know happened in the saiyan saga but since Toriyama isn’t really the kind of guy who’s going to spend time thinking about these things we are just left with a story that’s operating as though prior events didn’t happen. I understand why the funimation dub changed Goku’s reason for allowing Vegeta to leave, because it allows SSJ Goku to exist in a space that feels more detached from who he was before(Which is what Toriyama was trying to do when he wrote it).

The reason I bring this up is to kind of provide some context into why DB can feel so inconsistent sometimes, when you say that Goku not preparing for the Androids(aside from training) is not something that ever actually has any discernible consequences and thus he wouldn’t regret his decision, I immediately start to wonder “What does Goku perceive as a consequence?”

Why does Goku show regret over not finishing Freeza on Namek? why does he preface that he’s allowing Vegeta to leave even though he knows for a fact that its selfish and wrong? why does he choose to remain dead because he feels as though he’s a bad influence for the Earth?etc.

If the androids destroying West City isn’t a meaningful consequence to Goku, then what is? Because after the beginning of Cell arc, none of the characters ever try to grapple with the fact that they allowed this to happen. There’s not even a throwaway MajinBuuEsque line of Goku being like “Welp maybe I shouldn’t have destroyed the Potara”, and even after he’s killed and makes the decision to stay dead because he did some introspection about his influence on the Earth he never mentions that particular plot point at the beginning despite it being the best example. And Ill give Goku some credit and say that he’s usually aware when he’s screwing up, when he let Vegeta go he knew that it was wrong and he even says that its wrong.

I know the answers to these questions is that Toriyama is writing the story as he goes along and does what he feels is right in the moment, and that’s not always conducive to a coherent story. Id argue its very easy to tell when he’s trying to portray something as a legitimate character flaw vs when he’s trying to get to a particular end. So I guess that’s where my personal(and very subjective) interpretation of the characters comes from

Right, so if I understand you correctly, then it's the lack of admission from Goku that his decision to train instead of attacking Gero early is reckless, that lands this more as a case of Toriyama just trying to get to a particular end rather than portray a character flaw? I can see that, but the fact that Goku's decision there lines up cleanly with past decisions which were more clearly presented as character flaws makes it not really cause for concern to me. Put another way, this still exhibits Goku's main character flaw, even if it's not taking the time to highlight it. We could regard Goku's lack of "I know I'm being selfish, but..." as another missing piece (like what I described with Tenshinhan and Bulma), but I still don't see that as a glaring omission. The story would be better with it, but it's still more than coherent and functional without it.

---

Regarding consequences, I'm specifically referring to the reckless moves backfiring on them. They are told that their whole cadre of fighters get killed by the Androids. They say "fuck it, we ball", train, and take the Androids on. This time, their whole cadre of fighters (sans Goku himself, who was dead originally before the Androids attacked at all) remains alive. They got away with the risk they took, for the most part.

---

Where things get incoherent to me is stuff like the Kaio example. He talks like Goku is behaving wildly out of character in allowing Freeza to powerup and wanting to fight him, and it's presented in a way that makes it seem like Toriyama is trying to speak through Kaio about the matter. Yet, you're right, that this isn't actually out of character. You mention the Vegeta example, and I'll again mention the Piccolo example. There are even multiple instances throughout this very story arc where Goku expresses an interest in fighting Freeza. Based on past (and very recent) words and actions, one would conclude that "the Super Saiyan" is making Son Goku act like....Son Goku!

For me, this goes in the bin alongside just about any attempt by Toriyama to retroactively render martial artist behavior as uniquely Saiyan behavior (in this case, uniquely Super Saiyan behavior). It's a pretty random pivot, and it doesn't gel very well with the first six story arcs, and it's maybe the most egregious example to me of Toriyama's "make it up as I go along" writing-style causing incoherence. Specifically for the Kaio example, it makes him look like he doesn't actually know his own student very well, and I doubt that was Toriyama's intention.

Like, Goku making increasingly reckless moves as he gets stronger still tracks just fine, but the causes and motivations behind those reckless moves that Toriyama (vicariously through various characters) offers are often unnecessary biological determinism. I can't really describe it better than I did in a previous thread:

Might as well have told us through exposition that Goku has no arms, actually, and he never has had them, despite Goku being drawn with arms in that very same chapter.

Though to be clear, while I think the "this is a Saiyan trait!" is deeply unnecessary to the story and causes some unintentional incoherence with the first third of it, the general thrust of Goku's journey (that of a martial artist so committed to the bit that he eventually leaves all of his rivals in the dust) still tracks whether the extraneous fluff of "Saiyan!" is there or not. I guess we could say that Goku's alien ancestry then provides in-universe justification for how he ends up leaving his rivals in the dust, but I don't think that's necessary either. He can be just that good; look at how nobody else learned the Kaio-ken.

That said, Toriyama does make the Saiyan heritage retcon worthwhile in using it to give some gravitas to the Freeza fight, and using it to introduce a new martial arts technique that various characters effectively compete to optimize (Super Saiyan).

Kind of, I don’t think characters have to say things explicitly in order for it to be a reasonable interpretation. I just mean that Toriyama usually handles things in a very intentional way and resolves it within a specific timeframe, so like when Gohan is fucking up against Cell for example the story calls attention to Gohans recklessness and its subsequently addressed with the Death of Goku and him feeling guilty over it. There’s a legitimate identifiable through line that you can observe, and the story does bring some kind of closure to it.

The Gero thing feels a little different in that its established then the characters are portrayed to not care, and then the time skip happens and its almost like a complete reset of the story. Bulma was the one who was adamant about finding Gero and stopping him in the first place, but when she shows up later its revealed that she actually knew where the lab was all along and that she didn’t know Gero was part of the RRA. Retroactively making her seem like she didn’t care either, or making it so that Piccolo withheld vital info for no reason.

In terms of the consequences, IIRC Trunks did die. He was brought back ofc but I don’t think the team has ever operated in such a way where they would hand wave someones death because they know DBs exist. When Vegeta killed all those people at the world martial arts tournament, Goku was still very upset despite knowing they can be brought back easily. I also wonder why Goku would only perceive consequences in direct relation to himself or his loved ones, he was very upset when all those people in West City died. He was upset when the royal army was killed by Cell.

I hate to dog on Toriyama too much because despite everything, The Cell arc is very entertaining. There is value in writing based on the vibes because it allows Toriyama to actively sense when the story has stayed in one place for too long and when its time to either take it somewhere else, add another escalatory twist, or even just add a break in the action. The Cell arc has so much going on, there so many twist&turns that keep you hooked,

This is something DBS struggles with mightily, you can easily tell the difference between a product that Toriyama pens himself and one that he just provides bullet points to. Like the Granolah arc for example is so horrendous in that you’re spending almost a year in a single battlefield where Goku and Vegeta endlessly take turns against the bad guys. It was one of the few times I ever actually lost interest in a DB story. Even in a series as fighting centric as DB, it still needs a dramatically evolving story with compelling narrative threads. You can’t just put them in a ring and have them fight non-stop

I do maintain that Toriyama need better outlines for some of his original works in DB, but I wouldn’t change his ability to just feel things out in the moment. Even the Buu arc(despite its many issues) keeps your interest the entire way through

But this is exactly what Piccolo does at one point in the Buu Arc, tell him to go kill everyone on Earth first, and he obliges, killing absolutely on Earth. Heck thanks to Our Dumbasses wishing people shortly before Buu did it some these people will never return.

If anything I think saying "Handwave someones death because there is an afterlife" or something like that.

[tonysoprano300]

Right, so if I understand you correctly, then it's the lack of admission from Goku that his decision to train instead of attacking Gero early is reckless, that lands this more as a case of Toriyama just trying to get to a particular end rather than portray a character flaw? I can see that, but the fact that Goku's decision there lines up cleanly with past decisions which were more clearly presented as character flaws makes it not really cause for concern to me. Put another way, this still exhibits Goku's main character flaw, even if it's not taking the time to highlight it. We could regard Goku's lack of "I know I'm being selfish, but..." as another missing piece (like what I described with Tenshinhan and Bulma), but I still don't see that as a glaring omission. The story would be better with it, but it's still more than coherent and functional without it.

---

Regarding consequences, I'm specifically referring to the reckless moves backfiring on them. They are told that their whole cadre of fighters get killed by the Androids. They say "fuck it, we ball", train, and take the Androids on. This time, their whole cadre of fighters (sans Goku himself, who was dead originally before the Androids attacked at all) remains alive. They got away with the risk they took, for the most part.

---

Where things get incoherent to me is stuff like the Kaio example. He talks like Goku is behaving wildly out of character in allowing Freeza to powerup and wanting to fight him, and it's presented in a way that makes it seem like Toriyama is trying to speak through Kaio about the matter. Yet, you're right, that this isn't actually out of character. You mention the Vegeta example, and I'll again mention the Piccolo example. There are even multiple instances throughout this very story arc where Goku expresses an interest in fighting Freeza. Based on past (and very recent) words and actions, one would conclude that "the Super Saiyan" is making Son Goku act like....Son Goku!

For me, this goes in the bin alongside just about any attempt by Toriyama to retroactively render martial artist behavior as uniquely Saiyan behavior (in this case, uniquely Super Saiyan behavior). It's a pretty random pivot, and it doesn't gel very well with the first six story arcs, and it's maybe the most egregious example to me of Toriyama's "make it up as I go along" writing-style causing incoherence. Specifically for the Kaio example, it makes him look like he doesn't actually know his own student very well, and I doubt that was Toriyama's intention.

Like, Goku making increasingly reckless moves as he gets stronger still tracks just fine, but the causes and motivations behind those reckless moves that Toriyama (vicariously through various characters) offers are often unnecessary biological determinism. I can't really describe it better than I did in a previous thread:


Though to be clear, while I think the "this is a Saiyan trait!" is deeply unnecessary to the story and causes some unintentional incoherence with the first third of it, the general thrust of Goku's journey (that of a martial artist so committed to the bit that he eventually leaves all of his rivals in the dust) still tracks whether the extraneous fluff of "Saiyan!" is there or not. I guess we could say that Goku's alien ancestry then provides in-universe justification for how he ends up leaving his rivals in the dust, but I don't think that's necessary either. He can be just that good; look at how nobody else learned the Kaio-ken.

That said, Toriyama does make the Saiyan heritage retcon worthwhile in using it to give some gravitas to the Freeza fight, and using it to introduce a new martial arts technique that various characters effectively compete to optimize (Super Saiyan).

Kind of, I don’t think characters have to say things explicitly in order for it to be a reasonable interpretation. I just mean that Toriyama usually handles things in a very intentional way and resolves it within a specific timeframe, so like when Gohan is fucking up against Cell for example the story calls attention to Gohans recklessness and its subsequently addressed with the Death of Goku and him feeling guilty over it. There’s a legitimate identifiable through line that you can observe, and the story does bring some kind of closure to it.

The Gero thing feels a little different in that its established then the characters are portrayed to not care, and then the time skip happens and its almost like a complete reset of the story. Bulma was the one who was adamant about finding Gero and stopping him in the first place, but when she shows up later its revealed that she actually knew where the lab was all along and that she didn’t know Gero was part of the RRA. Retroactively making her seem like she didn’t care either, or making it so that Piccolo withheld vital info for no reason.

In terms of the consequences, IIRC Trunks did die. He was brought back ofc but I don’t think the team has ever operated in such a way where they would hand wave someones death because they know DBs exist. When Vegeta killed all those people at the world martial arts tournament, Goku was still very upset despite knowing they can be brought back easily. I also wonder why Goku would only perceive consequences in direct relation to himself or his loved ones, he was very upset when all those people in West City died. He was upset when the royal army was killed by Cell.

I hate to dog on Toriyama too much because despite everything, The Cell arc is very entertaining. There is value in writing based on the vibes because it allows Toriyama to actively sense when the story has stayed in one place for too long and when its time to either take it somewhere else, add another escalatory twist, or even just add a break in the action. The Cell arc has so much going on, there so many twist&turns that keep you hooked,

This is something DBS struggles with mightily, you can easily tell the difference between a product that Toriyama pens himself and one that he just provides bullet points to. Like the Granolah arc for example is so horrendous in that you’re spending almost a year in a single battlefield where Goku and Vegeta endlessly take turns against the bad guys. It was one of the few times I ever actually lost interest in a DB story. Even in a series as fighting centric as DB, it still needs a dramatically evolving story with compelling narrative threads. You can’t just put them in a ring and have them fight non-stop

I do maintain that Toriyama need better outlines for some of his original works in DB, but I wouldn’t change his ability to just feel things out in the moment. Even the Buu arc(despite its many issues) keeps your interest the entire way through

But this is exactly what Piccolo does at one point in the Buu Arc, tell him to go kill everyone on Earth first, and he obliges, killing absolutely on Earth. Heck thanks to Our Dumbasses wishing people shortly before Buu did it some these people will never return.

If anything I think saying "Handwave someones death because there is an afterlife" or something like that.

That made sense though, if Buu killed everyone on the lookout then nobody can be brought back. He needed more time and that was only way he could think to buy it. At least this way, the people on Earth have some chance of resurrection.

It was never hand-waved, piccolo absolutely hates that he is pushed to suggest it but really had no choice

[Zephyr]

The Gero thing feels a little different in that its established then the characters are portrayed to not care, and then the time skip happens and its almost like a complete reset of the story. Bulma was the one who was adamant about finding Gero and stopping him in the first place, but when she shows up later its revealed that she actually knew where the lab was all along and that she didn’t know Gero was part of the RRA. Retroactively making her seem like she didn’t care either, or making it so that Piccolo withheld vital info for no reason.

In terms of the consequences, IIRC Trunks did die. He was brought back ofc but I don’t think the team has ever operated in such a way where they would hand wave someones death because they know DBs exist. When Vegeta killed all those people at the world martial arts tournament, Goku was still very upset despite knowing they can be brought back easily. I also wonder why Goku would only perceive consequences in direct relation to himself or his loved ones, he was very upset when all those people in West City died. He was upset when the royal army was killed by Cell.

Looked back through the early part of the arc, and a few things:

After Goku returns from his chat with Trunks, the narration says: "So Piccolo told them everything, keeping only Trunks's parentage a secret." Then again, in the next chapter, Tenshinhan asks where and when the fight will be, so he clearly didn't say everything. There are little inconsistencies like that all over the place. Another one is Tenshinhan saying "So this is Goku as a Super Saiyan...!!" when the fight with #19 is about to start, despite seeing Goku become a Super Saiyan six chapters prior. But like I was saying before, the broad strokes remain intact, so these don't really bother me or take me out of the story. And like you're saying, the vibes, hooks, and twists also help smooth those cracks over.

Bulma makes clear, after #20/Gero escapes, that she's operating on a rumor regarding the lab's location; but she doesn't mention when she picked up on the rumor. Could have been during the 3 years, could have been prior. Her saying "I had no idea Dr. Gero was connected to the Red Ribbon Army..." seems strange. That's because Gero is without his hat at this point, which is the only part of his design that displays the Red Ribbon logo. Further, she's the only one during this scene who even brings the Red Ribbon Army up. So, there was nothing to prompt the comment in the first place. But if there was no prompting, there'd be no revelation, which means she'd have already known. But if she'd already known, then she wouldn't have had "no idea" that he was connected. Importantly, she says this in the same panel where she's talking about the rumor she heard about the lab's location.

My interpretation of this is that she'd heard rumors about Gero converting a cave into a lab (with no mention of his connections to the Red Ribbon Army), on her own time, prior to the Trunks and Mecha Freeza stuff. Which would mean, yeah, she knew where a lab of his might be during those 3 years. I don't think this is egregious, though, because the "let's attack Gero" plan was already veto'd. She could have attacked Gero (the Red Ribbon Army scientist making killer robots stronger than a Super Saiyan) by herself, but I don't really blame her for not trying. I can blame Future Bulma for not just sending Trunks back in time and killing Gero circa the immediate aftermath of the Red Ribbon Army arc, though, if the main goal was to create a better timeline. That's one of those things where, if we want to talk about things just happening so the plot can happen, it's Trunks being sent to......the time period when the next story arc is clear to start. But, I can overlook this, because, again, "martial story about evolving the Super Saiyan" and kickass vibes are worth that price of admission for me.

---

With regard to consequences, I'm talking about the specific risks they take, and what all is on the line when they take those risks. Typically, the fate of the world is on the line. They're betting the fate of the world on their own strength and grit against those of their opponents. It's actually difficult to look at the consequences of the decision to train for 3 years instead of attacking Gero, because most of the deaths in the arc were at the hands of Cell, someone who was time traveling to that era regardless of if they attacked Gero or not. Either way, by the end of the Cell arc: a city got blown up, a lot of people died, and someone got a hole in their Trunks, but things still came up Millhouse. The world is not in ruin and they still have Dragon Balls on Earth when all is said and done, despite not attacking Gero. That risk paid off. They got away with it.

[Hellspawn28]

A lot of people love the idea of a next generation, but would probably hate it if they got it. A sequel series to GT with Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr would have been disliked more than GT had it been made back in the day. So I'm glad that we doged that bullet.

[JulieYBM]

A lot of people love the idea of a next generation, but would probably hate it if they got it. A sequel series to GT with Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr would have been disliked more than GT had it been made back in the day. So I'm glad that we doged that bullet.

Why should we care what random people think?

There's a good story to tell in there, so we should support artists and their abilty to tell it should they desire to.

[Hellspawn28]

A series without Goku and the main characters would probably do poorly in sales. People like seeing the main cast of characters of the franchise. If you remove them completely, it won't be the same. That's why I hated Yu-Gi-Oh GX when it came out because it give us characters that weren't as fun and memorable as the one in the first two series (Original and Duel Monsters). It could be good if its done right. However, I don't see it working.

[JulieYBM]

A series without Goku and the main characters would probably do poorly in sales. People like seeing the main cast of characters of the franchise. If you remove them completely, it won't be the same. That's why I hated Yu-Gi-Oh GX when it came out because it give us characters that weren't as fun and memorable as the one in the first two series (Original and Duel Monsters). It could be good if its done right. However, I don't see it working.

Yuugi-Ou! successfully managed to change its cast of characters, though. That's the one example not to use to make your point.

Change is inevitable and good. There's really little to say "Focusing on Gokuu Junior would have been unpopular!" in 1998 or whatever, because it didn't happen and Dragon Ball GT ended.

"It could be good if done right!" Well yeah, the problem is is that it's not being done right. You just need to create a good series and to do that will probably mean fixing executive issues that block creators from creating good work (hi, Morishita Kouzou).

[tonysoprano300]

The Gero thing feels a little different in that its established then the characters are portrayed to not care, and then the time skip happens and its almost like a complete reset of the story. Bulma was the one who was adamant about finding Gero and stopping him in the first place, but when she shows up later its revealed that she actually knew where the lab was all along and that she didn’t know Gero was part of the RRA. Retroactively making her seem like she didn’t care either, or making it so that Piccolo withheld vital info for no reason.

In terms of the consequences, IIRC Trunks did die. He was brought back ofc but I don’t think the team has ever operated in such a way where they would hand wave someones death because they know DBs exist. When Vegeta killed all those people at the world martial arts tournament, Goku was still very upset despite knowing they can be brought back easily. I also wonder why Goku would only perceive consequences in direct relation to himself or his loved ones, he was very upset when all those people in West City died. He was upset when the royal army was killed by Cell.

Looked back through the early part of the arc, and a few things:

After Goku returns from his chat with Trunks, the narration says: "So Piccolo told them everything, keeping only Trunks's parentage a secret." Then again, in the next chapter, Tenshinhan asks where and when the fight will be, so he clearly didn't say everything. There are little inconsistencies like that all over the place. Another one is Tenshinhan saying "So this is Goku as a Super Saiyan...!!" when the fight with #19 is about to start, despite seeing Goku become a Super Saiyan six chapters prior. But like I was saying before, the broad strokes remain intact, so these don't really bother me or take me out of the story. And like you're saying, the vibes, hooks, and twists also help smooth those cracks over.

Bulma makes clear, after #20/Gero escapes, that she's operating on a rumor regarding the lab's location; but she doesn't mention when she picked up on the rumor. Could have been during the 3 years, could have been prior. Her saying "I had no idea Dr. Gero was connected to the Red Ribbon Army..." seems strange. That's because Gero is without his hat at this point, which is the only part of his design that displays the Red Ribbon logo. Further, she's the only one during this scene who even brings the Red Ribbon Army up. So, there was nothing to prompt the comment in the first place. But if there was no prompting, there'd be no revelation, which means she'd have already known. But if she'd already known, then she wouldn't have had "no idea" that he was connected. Importantly, she says this in the same panel where she's talking about the rumor she heard about the lab's location.

My interpretation of this is that she'd heard rumors about Gero converting a cave into a lab (with no mention of his connections to the Red Ribbon Army), on her own time, prior to the Trunks and Mecha Freeza stuff. Which would mean, yeah, she knew where a lab of his might be during those 3 years. I don't think this is egregious, though, because the "let's attack Gero" plan was already veto'd. She could have attacked Gero (the Red Ribbon Army scientist making killer robots stronger than a Super Saiyan) by herself, but I don't really blame her for not trying. I can blame Future Bulma for not just sending Trunks back in time and killing Gero circa the immediate aftermath of the Red Ribbon Army arc, though, if the main goal was to create a better timeline. That's one of those things where, if we want to talk about things just happening so the plot can happen, it's Trunks being sent to......the time period when the next story arc is clear to start. But, I can overlook this, because, again, "martial story about evolving the Super Saiyan" and kickass vibes are worth that price of admission for me.

---

With regard to consequences, I'm talking about the specific risks they take, and what all is on the line when they take those risks. Typically, the fate of the world is on the line. They're betting the fate of the world on their own strength and grit against those of their opponents. It's actually difficult to look at the consequences of the decision to train for 3 years instead of attacking Gero, because most of the deaths in the arc were at the hands of Cell, someone who was time traveling to that era regardless of if they attacked Gero or not. Either way, by the end of the Cell arc: a city got blown up, a lot of people died, and someone got a hole in their Trunks, but things still came up Millhouse. The world is not in ruin and they still have Dragon Balls on Earth when all is said and done, despite not attacking Gero. That risk paid off. They got away with it.

I guess its true from that very specific POV, technically the world didn’t get destroyed even though lots of people died. It seems a little messed up that they would perceive it that way but it what it Is suppose. These are the same people who outright forgot to revive the dead people in West City, and if that’s intentional on Toriyama’s then I certainly wonder if he actually wants me to like these characters.I would say that Cell wouldn’t have been able to do anything if the 17&18 weren’t around to be absorbed, so i would still hold them somewhat responsible for that.

I do think the Buu arc premise was much superior and it achieved the same effect while still keeping our heroes likeable and somewhat grounded. Its much more interesting Drama for Vegeta to ignorantly pursue a fight that he knows could lead to the release of Buu and have the characters oppose him, than it is for everyone to just unanimously agree to risk the Earth. I liked how Goku was characterized in that opening section, he was never careless and didn’t let his thirst for battle stop him from trying to prevent Buu but there was still an unmistakable sense that he’s really enjoying himself. It reminds me of Goku’s adventure into Muscle Tower in that way. That to me is quintessential Goku, and its pretty much who he was before he decided to let Vegeta go.

[tonysoprano300]

A lot of people love the idea of a next generation, but would probably hate it if they got it. A sequel series to GT with Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr would have been disliked more than GT had it been made back in the day. So I'm glad that we doged that bullet.

Idk, its like saying that nobody would be interested in watching a series set in the Breaking Bad universe without Walter White&Jesse Pinkman.

Its really not that unusual for a comic series to move past its initial protagonist, as long as the characters are interesting and the story’s are compelling I think they could have success

[WittyUsername]

A sequel series about Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. would’ve probably been even less popular than GT itself. Of course, it’s not like such a thing was ever in the cards anyway. Toei knew that GT was the end. Goku Jr. as a character basically only exists as a schmaltzy way of showing that Goku’s legacy lives on.

[dbgtFO]

I guess its true from that very specific POV, technically the world didn’t get destroyed even though lots of people died. It seems a little messed up that they would perceive it that way but it what it Is suppose. These are the same people who outright forgot to revive the dead people in West City, and if that’s intentional on Toriyama’s then I certainly wonder if he actually wants me to like these characters.

You guys are having a good debate and bringing up very good points, I have nothing to contribute, I just wanted to make a correction here.
You keep bringing up West City as the City that Dr. Gero destroyed huge chunks of at the start of the Android Arc, right?
That was the island city a bit southwest of South City. West City is where Bulma and co. live and it was never destroyed on screen.

[Zephyr]

I guess its true from that very specific POV, technically the world didn’t get destroyed even though lots of people died. It seems a little messed up that they would perceive it that way but it what it Is suppose. These are the same people who outright forgot to revive the dead people in West City, and if that’s intentional on Toriyama’s then I certainly wonder if he actually wants me to like these characters.I would say that Cell wouldn’t have been able to do anything if the 17&18 weren’t around to be absorbed, so i would still hold them somewhat responsible for that.

I do think the Buu arc premise was much superior and it achieved the same effect while still keeping our heroes likeable and somewhat grounded. Its much more interesting Drama for Vegeta to ignorantly pursue a fight that he knows could lead to the release of Buu and have the characters oppose him, than it is for everyone to just unanimously agree to risk the Earth. I liked how Goku was characterized in that opening section, he was never careless and didn’t let his thirst for battle stop him from trying to prevent Buu but there was still an unmistakable sense that he’s really enjoying himself. It reminds me of Goku’s adventure into Muscle Tower in that way. That to me is quintessential Goku, and its pretty much who he was before he decided to let Vegeta go.

I mean, it's not like they're sitting there thinking "and nothing bad happened!" They're aware that a lot of people died, and think that's a bad thing. That's why they wished them back to life, and routinely do so for innocent bystanders after the dust settles. Also, which "dead people in West City" are we talking about? East City gets blown up by Nappa, and a city on an island 9 kilometers southwest of South City gets blasted by Gero. I'm not sure if the characters remembered to revive the inhabitants of either of these settlements, but I don't think it was an intentional move on Toriyama's part to have them not do so.

---

Honestly, we have no idea what would have happened and how differently things would have gone, especially for #17 and #18, if the Dragon Team did attack Gero after Trunks left. We don't know when Gero 'created' them, we don't know if they were always 'at home', we don't know if the team might have had second thoughts about killing some unconscious teenagers. We don't even know if they would have been unconscious at the time of the Dragon Team's attack, and if they weren't, how well the Dragon Team would have fared. Frankly, being told "they're stronger than a Super Saiyan", and deciding to train to get stronger seems like a sensible move prior to mounting an attack against them, just to be on the safe side. The actual best reply to Bulma's "why don't we attack them?" would have been "because we're probably not ready yet".

Despite these unknowns, we do know that Cell was going to arrive from the future regardless. Though you do bring up a good point, that Cell wouldn't have been able to become Perfect if #17 and #18 were gone, and much of the killing he did was after absorbing the twins. Granted, he killed plenty before absorbing the twins as well, but he did that while believing that #17 and #18 were alive and well, and was trying to build up his strength so he could make his move. Would he have known the Dragon Team already killed the twins, and just time traveled again? How many people would he have killed before reaching that conclusion? More unknowns. Either way, Cell would have still done some damage, but (probably) not as much as he did in the scenario where the cyborgs were available to absorb. So, point taken.

Though, if he does skulk around absorbing people, and then travels into the past to find the cyborgs, that's an additional timeline's worth of Earthlings for him to kill, and here the utilitarian calculus starts to get real weird. Was giving Cell one less timeline to terrorize, inadvertently drawing the line here, no further, the accidentally moral thing to do? Ethics is fun.

---

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Boo arc point, to an extent at least. Firstly, because I find their cockiness and willingness to stare death in the face at the start of the Cell arc plenty likeable. Secondly, because the drama with Vegeta happens much later in the Boo arc than the decision to train for the Androids does: 35 chapters in vs. 8 chapters in (though this point is arguably just me being pedantic). Thirdly, because Vegeta giving Cell free reign to continue his hunt for #18 is the more comparable part of the arc to his letting Bobbidi take him over; "attack Gero, or no?" lives and dies in the span of 3 whole pages and is mined more for comedic reactions than drama. Fourthly, because Goku does not, in fact, do everything he could have to stop Boo from getting out. Fifthly, because that "quintessential Goku" you speak of 'dies' not with letting Vegeta go, but earlier with giving Piccolo the free hit. Finally, because the "Olympic Gold Medalist Syndrome" as I've called it before, and the increasingly reckless gambles it motivates him to make, help define the "quintessential Goku" to me (honestly, adult Goku only really became an interesting character to me after I began noticing this aspect).

But I do agree with you on certain points. I think the Boo arc drama with Vegeta is more interesting and satisfying than the Cell arc drama. I also do enjoy Goku a lot in the section you mention (though I enjoy him through the whole of the Boo arc).

[tonysoprano300]

I guess its true from that very specific POV, technically the world didn’t get destroyed even though lots of people died. It seems a little messed up that they would perceive it that way but it what it Is suppose. These are the same people who outright forgot to revive the dead people in West City, and if that’s intentional on Toriyama’s then I certainly wonder if he actually wants me to like these characters.I would say that Cell wouldn’t have been able to do anything if the 17&18 weren’t around to be absorbed, so i would still hold them somewhat responsible for that.

I do think the Buu arc premise was much superior and it achieved the same effect while still keeping our heroes likeable and somewhat grounded. Its much more interesting Drama for Vegeta to ignorantly pursue a fight that he knows could lead to the release of Buu and have the characters oppose him, than it is for everyone to just unanimously agree to risk the Earth. I liked how Goku was characterized in that opening section, he was never careless and didn’t let his thirst for battle stop him from trying to prevent Buu but there was still an unmistakable sense that he’s really enjoying himself. It reminds me of Goku’s adventure into Muscle Tower in that way. That to me is quintessential Goku, and its pretty much who he was before he decided to let Vegeta go.

I mean, it's not like they're sitting there thinking "and nothing bad happened!" They're aware that a lot of people died, and think that's a bad thing. That's why they wished them back to life, and routinely do so for innocent bystanders after the dust settles. Also, which "dead people in West City" are we talking about? East City gets blown up by Nappa, and a city on an island 9 kilometers southwest of South City gets blasted by Gero. I'm not sure if the characters remembered to revive the inhabitants of either of these settlements, but I don't think it was an intentional move on Toriyama's part to have them not do so

.


Sorry I'm referring to the Island 9 miles from south City, I just mean that them feeling vindictated by their decision to stand pat at the beginning would feel a little messed up given that there were casualities as a result. In the text itself, its never explicity made clear that they feel that way so its not neccessarily a criticism on my end but if that reading of he story is accurate then yea it makes them just a tad unlikeable for me.

Honestly, we have no idea what would have happened and how differently things would have gone, especially for #17 and #18, if the Dragon Team did attack Gero after Trunks left. We don't know when Gero 'created' them, we don't know if they were always 'at home', we don't know if the team might have had second thoughts about killing some unconscious teenagers. We don't even know if they would have been unconscious at the time of the Dragon Team's attack, and if they weren't, how well the Dragon Team would have fared. Frankly, being told "they're stronger than a Super Saiyan", and deciding to train to get stronger seems like a sensible move prior to mounting an attack against them, just to be on the safe side. The actual best reply to Bulma's "why don't we attack them?" would have been "because we're probably not ready yet".

Despite these unknowns, we do know that Cell was going to arrive from the future regardless. Though you do bring up a good point, that Cell wouldn't have been able to become Perfect if #17 and #18 were gone, and much of the killing he did was after absorbing the twins. Granted, he killed plenty before absorbing the twins as well, but he did that while believing that #17 and #18 were alive and well, and was trying to build up his strength so he could make his move. Would he have known the Dragon Team already killed the twins, and just time traveled again? How many people would he have killed before reaching that conclusion? More unknowns. Either way, Cell would have still done some damage, but (probably) not as much as he did in the scenario where the cyborgs were available to absorb. So, point taken.

Though, if he does skulk around absorbing people, and then travels into the past to find the cyborgs, that's an additional timeline's worth of Earthlings for him to kill, and here the utilitarian calculus starts to get real weird. Was giving Cell one less timeline to terrorize, inadvertently drawing the line here, no further, the accidentally moral thing to do? Ethics is fun.

See this actually would have been so interesting if they were confronted with these choices, its why I didnt mind Krillins "fuck up" with 18 because he was a placed into a legitimate ethical dilemma. Forced to contend with the idea of whether it's ever ok to take an innocent life even in the most extreme circumstances. When he made his decision, I feel as though I understood Krillin a lot better as a character which is what you want.

If they had decided "Hey you know what? Lets go check out Gero's lab just so we're not blindsided later on" and then are confronted with androids 17&18 still in development(revealing that these are actually kidnapped teenagers) then that would really make things tough. Maybe that's a little dark for a DB story but the Cell arc has always been kind of an exception.

I think what you're referring to is a pretty tried and true concept that every time travel story employs which is the idea that changing the past for the "better" will always have side effects and unintended consequences that may or may not make things worse.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Boo arc point, to an extent at least. Firstly, because I find their cockiness and willingness to stare death in the face at the start of the Cell arc plenty likeable. Secondly, because the drama with Vegeta happens much later in the Boo arc than the decision to train for the Androids does: 35 chapters in vs. 8 chapters in (though this point is arguably just me being pedantic). Thirdly, because Vegeta giving Cell free reign to continue his hunt for #18 is the more comparable part of the arc to his letting Bobbidi take him over; "attack Gero, or no?" lives and dies in the span of 3 whole pages and is mined more for comedic reactions than drama. Fourthly, because Goku does not, in fact, do everything he could have to stop Boo from getting out. Fifthly, because that "quintessential Goku" you speak of 'dies' not with letting Vegeta go, but earlier with giving Piccolo the free hit. Finally, because the "Olympic Gold Medalist Syndrome" as I've called it before, and the increasingly reckless gambles it motivates him to make, help define the "quintessential Goku" to me (honestly, adult Goku only really became an interesting character to me after I began noticing this aspect).

But I do agree with you on certain points. I think the Boo arc drama with Vegeta is more interesting and satisfying than the Cell arc drama. I also do enjoy Goku a lot in the section you mention (though I enjoy him through the whole of the Boo arc).

Yea, I think blending those two things is probably better for the story overall because meaningful drama is born. And it makes the birth of Majin Buu feel like a punishment for both Vegeta's ignorance, and Gohan's shirking of his own responsibilities as Earth's protector, admittedly the anime handles it better. If your referring to Goku not using SSJ3 against Vegeta then yes I absolutely agree, with the caveat that at least Goku's decision not use it was more so just bad strategy rather than selfish desire or malicous intent. From a meta POV, I feel very confident in saying that SSJ3 had not been conceptualized by that point and he did a rather poor job at integrating it into the story. Like many of the plot point points in the Buu arc, viewing them in isolation is extremely compelling but trying to have them form a cohesive story just doesnt work.

I feel like I should probably clarify my POV on Goku vs Piccolo, Piccolo is certainly evil and thats undeniable. But I can understand Goku's pride as a martial artist being apparent in this fight because

A) Piccolo has abided by most of the tournament rules himself
B) Piccolo actually agreed to enter the tournament and hasnt caused any trouble outside of it.

So Goku being like "Hey this is my fight, stay out of it" is something that I can picture him doing at this point in the story, from his POV Piccolo Jr doesnt have any help and neither should he they both signed up for the tournament and at the end of the day, Goku's ethics are simple. Perhaps too simple. The Vegeta example is more so Goku being like "Hey this is wrong but I dont care", the saiyan arc even reveals that Goku never believed Piccolo was as bad as the original Daimo and there are certainly clues to help the audience reach that conclusion as well

I say this knowing that the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament isnt my favourite arc, it's certainly my least favourite of all the tournament arcs(not counting TOP). And the saiyan arc(like I've said before) is my favourite DB story arc, so its definitely weird how that works out.

[tonysoprano300]

I guess its true from that very specific POV, technically the world didn’t get destroyed even though lots of people died. It seems a little messed up that they would perceive it that way but it what it Is suppose. These are the same people who outright forgot to revive the dead people in West City, and if that’s intentional on Toriyama’s then I certainly wonder if he actually wants me to like these characters.

You guys are having a good debate and bringing up very good points, I have nothing to contribute, I just wanted to make a correction here.
You keep bringing up West City as the City that Dr. Gero destroyed huge chunks of at the start of the Android Arc, right?
That was the island city a bit southwest of South City. West City is where Bulma and co. live and it was never destroyed on screen.

Yup, you’re right. My bad

[Zephyr]

Sorry I'm referring to the Island 9 miles from south City, I just mean that them feeling vindictated by their decision to stand pat at the beginning would feel a little messed up given that there were casualities as a result. In the text itself, its never explicity made clear that they feel that way so its not neccessarily a criticism on my end but if that reading of he story is accurate then yea it makes them just a tad unlikeable for me.

No worries. It's definitely never made clear how they feel ultimately about their original decision, so we're just left to interpret how they might. It's possible Goku's decision to stay dead was an attempt at this, but if so it's not made as clear as it should be. My own interpretation (in hindsight, after the Boo arc has played out) is that Goku is ultimately using that all as an excuse to seek new challenges in the afterlife since Gohan's now retiring, Vegeta couldn't keep up, and Chichi was going to make him get a job; but that's not made as clear as it should be either.

That's both the joy and the frustration with these last two arcs, which are both Dragon Ball's longest, and also the one's that probably had Toriyama at his most exhausted and burnt out. His flippant writing style means he's probably not planning too far ahead or looking too far back when building twists, climaxes, and resolutions, resulting in a lot of the small hiccups we've talked about. The weekly publishing schedule means he probably wouldn't have had very much time to do so. His exhaustion means he probably wouldn't have had much energy to do so. As a result, the story and characters are a lot more open to interpretation than is perhaps preferable. Or, as you've said, inconsistent and incoherent.

Really, Toriyama probably should have taken a hiatus after the Namek arc to both rest and plan. But the series also peaked in popularity with Namek, so it's difficult to imagine that actually happening. And, well, it didn't, and this is what we're left with. Despite the many flaws with these two arcs, despite the inconsistencies and incoherence that do exist, I'm amazed at how much consistency and coherency there still is. A better (read: more attentive and well-rested) writer would have done a better job, but it's genuinely impressive just how well Toriyama did stick the landing on these very long stories while burnt out and planning very little. They've both got issues, possibly more than any prior arcs, but they almost don't even matter. Almost.

See this actually would have been so interesting if they were confronted with these choices, its why I didnt mind Krillins "fuck up" with 18 because he was a placed into a legitimate ethical dilemma. Forced to contend with the idea of whether it's ever ok to take an innocent life even in the most extreme circumstances. When he made his decision, I feel as though I understood Krillin a lot better as a character which is what you want.

If they had decided "Hey you know what? Lets go check out Gero's lab just so we're not blindsided later on" and then are confronted with androids 17&18 still in development(revealing that these are actually kidnapped teenagers) then that would really make things tough. Maybe that's a little dark for a DB story but the Cell arc has always been kind of an exception.

I think what you're referring to is a pretty tried and true concept that every time travel story employs which is the idea that changing the past for the "better" will always have side effects and unintended consequences that may or may not make things worse.

So, I do agree that this would have been really interesting. At the same time though, I don't think it's necessary for the kind of story being told. To be clear this isn't me giving Toriyama a pass because I like the end result, or holding DB to different storytelling rules or anything. I'm just trying to have realistic expectations. Toriyama was a gag artist by trade, and he happened to also have a knack for great action as well. As a result, he told a comedic martial arts story about strength cultivation and battling evil in a tournament-coded universe. That's the sort of story he aimed to tell, and that's the sort of story we ought to be evaluating.

He's not great at romance, and he's not great at extremely heady or philosophical stuff. There are elements of these throughout the story; the light bit of romance present in the Pilaf arc helps the story out, as well as the gags. The light bit of moral quandaries he dabbles in helps color Goku in a way I find pretty interesting. Your point about Kuririn is great, and God's hesitance to fuse with Piccolo just to kill the twins pairs well with it. But these are largely outside of his wheelhouse, absent from his primary toolbox of tricks, and so I don't expect a great deal of these even on his best days. And the Cell arc was far from the best of days for him. There are some time travel tropes he leaned into (namely the butterfly effect, I'd argue), but I see the time travel stuff ultimately as window dressing for the basically-tournament matches these characters are practically destined to live through.

And I don't say this out of a disdain for heady stuff. I have an MA in Philosophy, and some of my favorite manga outside of DB are Monster, Berserk, and Vinland Saga, all of which deal with hefty philosophical questions and ethical quandaries as one of the main features of their stories. Dragon Ball is simply not that kind of thing, and it doesn't need that sort of thing to feature good storytelling. So, in the moments where the storytelling warrants criticism, I don't think the absence of deep philosophical dilemmas is what warrants that criticism.

But, again, I do agree that it would have been really cool and would have elevated the work. I just don't think Toriyama would have been the kind of writer to pull that off, even at his sharpest.

If your referring to Goku not using SSJ3 against Vegeta then yes I absolutely agree, with the caveat that at least Goku's decision not use it was more so just bad strategy rather than selfish desire or malicous intent. From a meta POV, I feel very confident in saying that SSJ3 had not been conceptualized by that point and he did a rather poor job at integrating it into the story. Like many of the plot point points in the Buu arc, viewing them in isolation is extremely compelling but trying to have them form a cohesive story just doesnt work.

I am. Super Saiyan 3 no doubt wasn't conceptualized at that point. With regards to integrating it into the story and having its existence color Goku's actions during the Majin Vegeta section, bad strategy is definitely one way to read it.

For me, it's effectively another "Goku gambling for a good fight" moment. This read is available because he's clearly looking forward to fighting Vegeta, and is also enjoying himself during the fight. This in turn makes it come across like the afterlife wasn't as exciting over the past seven years as he was hoping it would be, and a close fight against a Super Saiyan 2 is the closest he's going to be able to get to stretching his legs, so to speak; using Super Saiyan 3 to end it right there wouldn't serve that end. Then we finally do see him (a man who can teleport) use Super Saiyan 3 against Boo while stalling so Trunks can fly to Capsule Corp to get the Dragon Radar. It's hard for me to not see Goku wanting to stretch his legs as a Super Saiyan 3 here.

Goku being culpable in this way for Boo's revival is important because it then makes his being one of the ones to actually finish Boo off in the end make more narrative sense. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks didn't let him out, Goku and Vegeta did; so when it comes down to those two having to clean up the mess they caused, I really enjoy it.

Of course, none of this is spelled out really. I don't know if any of this was Toriyama's intention, and if it was he certainly didn't do much work to render it clear. It's one of those things where, because of Toriyama's carelessness, his exhaustion, and the sheer length of these arcs, there are hiccups and cracks everywhere, and a lot more stuff is open to audience interpretation than is preferable. That said, I do think this is one of the available interpretations of his actions throughout the arc; it forms a general throughline, and lines up with Goku's general trajectory of getting increasingly reckless in his gambling as he gets stronger.

I feel like I should probably clarify my POV on Goku vs Piccolo, Piccolo is certainly evil and thats undeniable. But I can understand Goku's pride as a martial artist being apparent in this fight because

A) Piccolo has abided by most of the tournament rules himself
B) Piccolo actually agreed to enter the tournament and hasnt caused any trouble outside of it.

So Goku being like "Hey this is my fight, stay out of it" is something that I can picture him doing at this point in the story, from his POV Piccolo Jr doesnt have any help and neither should he they both signed up for the tournament and at the end of the day, Goku's ethics are simple. Perhaps too simple. The Vegeta example is more so Goku being like "Hey this is wrong but I dont care", the saiyan arc even reveals that Goku never believed Piccolo was as bad as the original Daimo and there are certainly clues to help the audience reach that conclusion as well

I say this knowing that the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament isnt my favourite arc, it's certainly my least favourite of all the tournament arcs(not counting TOP). And the saiyan arc(like I've said before) is my favourite DB story arc, so its definitely weird how that works out.

True, Piccolo has largely abided by the tournament rules, and the fact that he even entered it in the first place is interesting. I would say that sealing God away and eating him is perhaps a bit outside of the rulebook, though. And beyond that, Goku's still clearly interested in the integrity of the match after Piccolo blows up the whole island, else he wouldn't be caring about the ten count, or his ringing Piccolo out at the end.

I also think Kame Sennin's comment does some important legwork here: "Hehe...Goku never was one to think much about the global situation. The only thing that really gets him excited...is fighting an opponent worthy of him...". In the next chapter, God says that if they don't defeat Piccolo now they'll regret it later, to which Goku replies: "I'll regret it more if I give up now." Tenshinhan adds: "Please let Goku do this his way. The world he's defending is one he's already saved once. Surely he's earned the right...". This is echoed by Kuririn in the Saiyan arc when he says: "You saved the Earth...I guess you've got the right...to have it your way...".

The fact that Piccolo is playing by the rules at all doesn't count for nothing, but I struggle to truly decouple this moment from the rest of Goku's trajectory in the following arcs. And, unlike my reading of the Boo arc case, I think it's difficult to not read this as Toriyama intentionally depicting Goku as taking a selfish risk.

[Skar]

A series without Goku and the main characters would probably do poorly in sales. People like seeing the main cast of characters of the franchise. If you remove them completely, it won't be the same. That's why I hated Yu-Gi-Oh GX when it came out because it give us characters that weren't as fun and memorable as the one in the first two series (Original and Duel Monsters). It could be good if its done right. However, I don't see it working.

I'm not sure if that would be an unpopular opinion. All we've had without Goku were the TV specials and short spinoffs. Those still featured supporting characters or someone related to Goku. Goku's father, a future that's worse without Goku, and Goku's descendant. Heroes is the closest to a series with a mostly new cast but the original main characters still appear.

I think the toy or merchandise based franchises like Yu-Gi-Oh, Gundam, Beyblade, etc established each season is in its own universe with a new cast. I guess there might be some sequels set in the same universe but most of the time it's a new universe each season. They're different than the shonen mostly following one main character for the entire series. I think Boruto was a rare exception since it has a new main character but it's not as successful as Naruto and still the original main character's son. There are far more shonen like DB that end after the main character's story is over.

[Froggy]

No worries. It's definitely never made clear how they feel ultimately about their original decision, so we're just left to interpret how they might. It's possible

its intentional.

Akira Toriyama writing style is like the bible. he brilliantly writes stories, that stick to the important stuff and doesnt go on ridiculous flashbacks or information the we dont actually need like they do on many other anime with the flashbacks on every side character that no one knew existed few episodes ago and nobody even remember they exist after their appearance.

they dont need to tell us everything, because Toriyama, wrote it in a way that we know the characters and we instinctively know what they would do and why they do it.
and you dont even have to be some hardcore fan. you just need to follow the story.


every time you see a flashback or some information about a side characters that doesnt matter, or maybe some deep explanation on something ithat wont affect the story in any way, that is bad writing.


*never ask for explicit information. its terrible writing. a writer need to convey information to the reader without blatantly tell everything, and Toriyama did it with all of his works.

right now I'm finishing My Hero Academia, and its hell to watch. i keep on skipping all the useless information. thats bad writing.