Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Sep 23, 2024 11:38 am

Yuji wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 3:19 pm Yes, if you believe that base Goku is SSG tier then you necessarily have to believe that:

1. Future Trunks is that strong despite being malnourished warding off Black and struggling with Dabra the same year
2. Gohan is that strong despite not training.
3. 18 is that strong because she defeated a Pride Trooper that base Goku couldn't, plus Ribrianne.
4. Kuririn is that strong because he forced Goku to turn Super Saiyan.
5. Tenshinhan and Roshi are that strong for being relative to Kuririn.
6. Every single ToP contestant is that strong.

In essence since everyone scales to base Goku and Vegeta, everyone is SSG tier and stronger than Super Vegetto because base Goku has tons of anti-feats in the ToP especially.
DBS characters' power is overrated because of things that happened in what would be considered filler episodes, or non-Toriyama/non-whatever, you catch my drift.
Episodes that aren't followed up by the main story penned by T&T, that seem to live in a vacuum. Like the Copy Vegeta episode, the Beerus Costume episode, the Hit vs Goku rematch episode(there's some crazy base Goku feats there for sure I think), none of those developments were carried over to the main arcs, like Gohan destroying Goku's spaceship only for it to be perfectly fine when Dr Briefs enhances it for the Namek journey.

The only argument in favour of that was Goku absorbing SSG, which the anime included, but the manga did not, meaning Toyotaro and Toriyama decided to backtrack on that development. The anime, being the mess that it is, suffered from Toriyama's change of heart, but since we are already headcanoning our way out of so many contradictions it has, we can go ahead and assume that was a temporary thing. That or Roshi oneshots Super Vegito.
By now, it's just dumb to think everybody is SSG tier, or to pretend the anime and the manga are two different series, yeah some things differ clearly, but not to the point where in one everybody is as strong as a god and in the other one not even Goku is as strong as a god.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Sep 23, 2024 2:56 pm

The movies did have the Saiyans tap into god-like power in base, but the anime follows that half-heartedly. It's like the old two base theory, but instead of God Ki it's just Toei wanting Base Saiyans to be super strong for a specific fight. When we get past that, DBS Goku's feats are more or less on pair with his GT self: Taking on Bergamo, Fit Boo, Piccolo (who murdered SSJ2 Gohan). He's getting into SSJ3 level with those feats, meanwhile GT Goku is beyond SSJ3.

So to get to the Cabba vs SSJ4 Gogeta debate... Cabba would have his hands full with Redjic or Rildo, let alone Gogeta.
Koitsukai wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 11:38 am That or Roshi oneshots Super Vegito.
Well, he did hold his own vs Jiren...
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Mon Sep 23, 2024 4:28 pm

How strong is Super Vegetto anyway? The anime leads us to believe that base Vegetto is relative to Boohan, if not stronger.

GT Perfect Files state he's a match for Baby arc SS4 Goku.

And we used to believe that BoG SSG Goku was stronger than a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto based on statements but Goku only says that Vegetto wouldn't be able to beat Beerus (which is fair, since only Blue fusions are compared to Beerus). Based on other showings, fusions are shown to be ridiculously powerful. Base Kefla in the anime ridicules SSG Goku, and Super Saiyan, arguably base, Gogeta was giving SS Broly an even fight, who toyed with two SSBs at once.

Might it be that Super Vegetto was stronger than SSG Goku after all? Which would actually gives us a decent scale between Super and GT: Super Vegetto, SS4 Goku and SSG Goku are all somewhat relative to each other, which fits with the portrayal from Heroes of SS4 = Blue since Xeno Goku starts off with a higher base powerlevel anyway to make up for the lower multiplier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Sep 23, 2024 4:57 pm

I see this misconception a lot.

Why do people presume that Vegito from BoG pre-SSG is at all relative to Vegito/Gogeta currently?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:14 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 4:57 pm I see this misconception a lot.

Why do people presume that Vegito from BoG pre-SSG is at all relative to Vegito/Gogeta currently?
That's not what's being said.

As Broly SS Vegetto/Gogeta is stronger than Broly SSG Goku, hypothetical BoG SS Vegetto would be stronger than BoG SSG Goku, or Z SS Vegetto would be stronger than hypothetical Boo arc SSG Goku. Because there's not a big gap between Boo arc Goku and BoG Goku, Z Vegetto should still be comparable.

It's about relativity. The fusion multiplier shouldn't change from arc to arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:53 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 4:28 pm the portrayal from Heroes of SS4 = Blue since Xeno Goku starts off with a higher base powerlevel anyway to make up for the lower multiplier.
Except Heroes usually shows Super Goku being roughly on the same level as Xeno Goku in Base and regular SS forms.

Also: bloody hell is ToP a giant-ass mess for power-scaling with all the differences between anime and manga LOL.
Just Kale: there is no reason to believe her Anime Base Form any sensibly stronger(if at all) than Caulifla's or Cabba's, but her Manga Base is already stronger than Super Saiyan Caulifla.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:09 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:14 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 4:57 pm I see this misconception a lot.

Why do people presume that Vegito from BoG pre-SSG is at all relative to Vegito/Gogeta currently?
That's not what's being said.

As Broly SS Vegetto/Gogeta is stronger than Broly SSG Goku, hypothetical BoG SS Vegetto would be stronger than BoG SSG Goku, or Z SS Vegetto would be stronger than hypothetical Boo arc SSG Goku. Because there's not a big gap between Boo arc Goku and BoG Goku, Z Vegetto should still be comparable.

It's about relativity. The fusion multiplier shouldn't change from arc to arc.
I think there's a big point to be made about Vegito/Gogeta legitimately changing in potential power as Vegeta and Goku get stronger and stronger both in general AND via additional forms.

I also think it's a misconception that there isn't a big gap between BoG base forms and post-BoG. It's not to the degree of Super Saiyan God, but it comes across to me as decently large, easily around the original Majin Buu as per Goku taking on Uub in his base form in End of Z and other such similar instances.

So combining the 2 gives us Fusions that can easily eclipse pre-Super versions with outright changing proportional increases from the fusees.

Basically, Vegito back then was indeed inferior to SSG. But with Goku and Vegeta having far higher baseline power levels AND access to higher forms, their Fusions end up exponentially stronger to the point that Vegito and Gogeta have base forms in-line with SSB.

You can disagree if you want, but I personally feel that it makes more sense to go with the idea of Fusions getting a lot stronger due to Goku and Vegeta getting far stronger than them somehow retroactively having been way stronger than originally thought at the time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:16 pm

Yeah, the fusion multiplier never changed, the variables in this are the fusees. Post-Whis saiyans' FP >>>>>>>> pre-Whis saiyans' FP, and so are their fusions.

Saiyans with -100M base and as strong as 40,000M (that's how much juice I think Z SS3 had) produce a fusion weaker than BoG SSG.
Saiyans with +100M base and waaaay powerful than 40,000M (say 10x that for SSG, and 10-50x that for SSB) easily produce a fusion stronger than BoG SSG.

For Kefla, she is half U6 Broly, that's a wild card and as strong as the story wants it to be. The manga, for instance, really downplayed Kefla.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:23 pm

Yuji wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:53 am Reminder that the SSG-tier base nonsense isn't in the manga. Cabba is equal to a slightly stronger Boo arc base Vegeta, which is more than coherent and leagues below any relevant GT character.
Negative.

Base Goku is way stronger than Shin as proven in the GoD exhibition match and so is Cabba by being equal to Vegeta in the same forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:29 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:23 pm
Yuji wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:53 am Reminder that the SSG-tier base nonsense isn't in the manga. Cabba is equal to a slightly stronger Boo arc base Vegeta, which is more than coherent and leagues below any relevant GT character.
Negative.

Base Goku is way stronger than Shin as proven in the GoD exhibition match and so is Cabba by being equal to Vegeta in the same forms.
Goku goes from being beaten by Black to almost killing Merged Zamasu in the anime, and Vegeta goes from losing to SS1 Black to beating SSR Black in the manga, and that's in the Zamasu arc alone. Goku and Vegeta got way stronger since U6 and nothing leads us to believe that Cabba went through the same boost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:54 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:29 pm Goku goes from being beaten by Black to almost killing Merged Zamasu in the anime, and Vegeta goes from losing to SS1 Black to beating SSR Black in the manga, and that's in the Zamasu arc alone. Goku and Vegeta got way stronger since U6 and nothing leads us to believe that Cabba went through the same boost.
Manga wise they stayed the same between the U6 arcs and the start of the ToP.

Anime wise both Frost and Hit were stated to have gotten stronger so I see no reason to not have Cabba do the same.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Sep 24, 2024 2:02 am

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:54 pm
Yuji wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:29 pm Goku goes from being beaten by Black to almost killing Merged Zamasu in the anime, and Vegeta goes from losing to SS1 Black to beating SSR Black in the manga, and that's in the Zamasu arc alone. Goku and Vegeta got way stronger since U6 and nothing leads us to believe that Cabba went through the same boost.
Manga wise they stayed the same between the U6 arcs and the start of the ToP.

Anime wise both Frost and Hit were stated to have gotten stronger so I see no reason to not have Cabba do the same.
That's quite literally impossible considering Vegeta loses in SSB after eating a Senzu to SS1 Black and after training in the RoSaT beats SSR Black with his SSG+SSB combo. He had to get stronger, it wasn't just a strategy.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:32 am

Cabba literally got crushed and pummelled by an uncontrolled Berserker Kale.

Are we meant to believe that Cabba is the only Saiyan in existence who doesn't get Zenkai boosts?

Even the furries from U9 got stronger in-between the exhibition match and the tournament, but not Cabba? :eh:
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:55 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:32 am Cabba literally got crushed and pummelled by an uncontrolled Berserker Kale.

Are we meant to believe that Cabba is the only Saiyan in existence who doesn't get Zenkai boosts?

Even the furries from U9 got stronger in-between the exhibition match and the tournament, but not Cabba? :eh:
Once you've trained your body enough, Saiyans no longer get near death boosts. Trunks states this in the Zamasu arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Sep 24, 2024 4:04 am

Yuji wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:55 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:32 am Cabba literally got crushed and pummelled by an uncontrolled Berserker Kale.

Are we meant to believe that Cabba is the only Saiyan in existence who doesn't get Zenkai boosts?

Even the furries from U9 got stronger in-between the exhibition match and the tournament, but not Cabba? :eh:
Once you've trained your body enough, Saiyans no longer get near death boosts. Trunks states this in the Zamasu arc.
Cabba had literally just learned how to use Super Saiyan, on top of the fact that he is clearly a young man/teenager not even close to his limit.

Why die on this hill? EVERYONE has been training for the tournament, even the fodder furries from U9. Of course Cabba grew stronger.
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with Toyotaro

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Sep 24, 2024 9:22 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 4:04 am
Yuji wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:55 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:32 am Cabba literally got crushed and pummelled by an uncontrolled Berserker Kale.

Are we meant to believe that Cabba is the only Saiyan in existence who doesn't get Zenkai boosts?

Even the furries from U9 got stronger in-between the exhibition match and the tournament, but not Cabba? :eh:
Once you've trained your body enough, Saiyans no longer get near death boosts. Trunks states this in the Zamasu arc.
Cabba had literally just learned how to use Super Saiyan, on top of the fact that he is clearly a young man/teenager not even close to his limit.

Why die on this hill? EVERYONE has been training for the tournament, even the fodder furries from U9. Of course Cabba grew stronger.
I don't dispute he got stronger, I just don't see any proof he got stronger at the same rate Vegeta and Goku did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Sep 24, 2024 11:56 am

Yuji wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 2:02 am
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:54 pm
Yuji wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:29 pm Goku goes from being beaten by Black to almost killing Merged Zamasu in the anime, and Vegeta goes from losing to SS1 Black to beating SSR Black in the manga, and that's in the Zamasu arc alone. Goku and Vegeta got way stronger since U6 and nothing leads us to believe that Cabba went through the same boost.
Manga wise they stayed the same between the U6 arcs and the start of the ToP.

Anime wise both Frost and Hit were stated to have gotten stronger so I see no reason to not have Cabba do the same.
That's quite literally impossible considering Vegeta loses in SSB after eating a Senzu to SS1 Black and after training in the RoSaT beats SSR Black with his SSG+SSB combo. He had to get stronger, it wasn't just a strategy.
Vegeta was beating Black with bursts of CSSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Sep 24, 2024 1:17 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 11:56 am
Yuji wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 2:02 am
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:54 pm
Manga wise they stayed the same between the U6 arcs and the start of the ToP.

Anime wise both Frost and Hit were stated to have gotten stronger so I see no reason to not have Cabba do the same.
That's quite literally impossible considering Vegeta loses in SSB after eating a Senzu to SS1 Black and after training in the RoSaT beats SSR Black with his SSG+SSB combo. He had to get stronger, it wasn't just a strategy.
Vegeta was beating Black with bursts of CSSB.
No? He has the gel aura still and Vegeta implies Goku's mastery of the form was unattainable.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Tue Sep 24, 2024 1:48 pm

Yuji wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 9:22 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 4:04 am
Yuji wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:55 am

Once you've trained your body enough, Saiyans no longer get near death boosts. Trunks states this in the Zamasu arc.
Cabba had literally just learned how to use Super Saiyan, on top of the fact that he is clearly a young man/teenager not even close to his limit.

Why die on this hill? EVERYONE has been training for the tournament, even the fodder furries from U9. Of course Cabba grew stronger.
I don't dispute he got stronger, I just don't see any proof he got stronger at the same rate Vegeta and Goku did.
This. Goku and Vegeta both needed special training events and masters to get massive boosts in power. Cabba has not been stated to train with any sort of god, in any sort of time chamber, had any sort of potential unlock event done, nor trained with somebody like the Yardrats. No gravity training rooms either. There is absolutely zero reason to believe he would have had the same kind of training to grow as the other Saiyans and this applies to all of the U6 Saiyans. I don't doubt he got stronger since his introduction Saga, but his increases are highly unlikely to be some great noticeable jumps.

and yeah Vegeta did not use CSSB to start overwhelming Black. He used God to Blue switching and this was after he had trained in the Hyperbolic Timechamber again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Sep 24, 2024 1:59 pm

I do not believe BASE Goku and Vegeta got sensibly stronger after U6.

They already maxed out their physical bodies by then, and their stated focus(as well the narrative focus) has been on improving Blue, at least until ToP\Moro.

So any increment in power for them would be portrayed by those forms, not by their base ones

If anything it's Cabba who got relatively massively stronger, by mastering Super Saiyan, especially in the anime where he even reaches SS2

So yeah. I believe Base Cabba wouldn't be any really weaker than Base Vegeta during ToP, and that if they were to fight with the same form, Cabba would surely lose because Vegeta is MUCH more experienced but not because any real difference in strength.

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