Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

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Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by Vegetto95 » Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:23 pm

To preface, I'm not referring to their entire company history since 1994; DUH, they wouldn't have survived without Dragon Ball, they only got the license to it through sheer nepotism first of all, and on top of that it was literally the ONLY licensed property they had until they started slooowly acquiring distribution rights to other IPs starting with Blue Gender and Yū Yū Hakusho waaay later in 2001/02 (and sorry, but I don't exactly think things like Cyboars and The Morris Bros count :lol: )

What I'm mainly referring to is a specific period of time that I like to refer to as The Great American Anime Licensor Massacre of the Late 2000s-Early 2010s. Pioneer/Geneon, Manga Entertainment, ADV, Bandai Entertainment/Visual, etc. ALL went belly-up in one way or another in the span of just three or four years, roughly around 2008-2012 (Manga for example didn't actually go under, but got sold to Starz and ceased all acquisition of new licenses, and Sentai Filmworks still uses the ADV branding on a select few of its legacy reprints). We're talking companies with decades-long histories of importing THOUSANDS of different anime, both major and obscure, ALL going out roughly around the same time... but FUNimation not only persevered, but grew FAR stronger by scooping up the lion's share of the licenses dangling in the abyss from the liquidations. HUNDREDS of titles, many of which were years and years old, were suddenly under the FUNimation banner in the early 2010s.

Question is... how did FUNimation make it through all that intact to grab all those titles and not suffer the same fates as those other companies that were all once VASTLY more successful? I mean, what did FUNimation even have at that time that was strong enough to weather those catastrophic several years aside from Dragon Ball? Gunslinger Girl? Burst Angel? Blue Gender? Kiddy Grade? Samurai 7? The Lupin III movies and specials? Detective Conan? Basilisk? Speed Grapher? Fruits Basket? Tenchi Muyo GXP? Kodocha? The Galaxy Railways? Peach Girl? Suzuka? Yeah, I think we all know that NONE of those were anywhere near big enough to hold up the entire company through a disaster such as that (even Lupin III and Detective Conan, as EXTRAORDINARILY beloved and popular as they are in Japan, are sadly nowhere near as well-known and popular here in America, certainly not in the mid 2000s).

They only had ONE license that was HUGELY popular enough to keep them steady, and that was Dragon Ball. Sure, they had Fullmetal Alchemist at the time, but that, as popular as it was and still is to this day, didn't PRINT FUCKING MONEY the way DB did. Dragon Ball wasn't just DVD and VHS sales, though those were quite strong (as terrible as they were, the Orange Bricks were still positively FLYING off shelves circa 2007-8), it was also toys. TOYS. LOOOTS OF TOYS. It was SEVERAL video games EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. for EVERY major home AND handheld console in existence. I can't think of any other reason why FUNimation, with only at best twenty or thirty rather obscure titles to its name that all had next to no merchandising, could have survived when those other companies, which had FAR more experience in the field and had licenses to a WHOLE BUNCH of INCREDIBLY popular titles like Cowboy Bebop, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Sailor Moon, Mobile Suit Gundam, Trigun, Hellsing, Bubblegum Crisis (the reboot, at least), Samurai Champloo, Wolf's Rain, Vision of Escaflowne, Guyver, Saiyuki, and so, SOOOO many more, went under.

I mean, look at one of the VERY few other companies that came through the crisis just fine: Viz. Yes, of course there's the fact that Viz, since the 90s if not before, has been BY FAR the biggest and most prolific licensor of manga in the states; that's obviously a HUGE part of the equation... but there's ALSO the fact that they had distribution rights to some INCREDIBLY popular, and most importantly, WIDELY marketed IPs at the time. Obviously... there's Pokémon. That alone had to have kept them totally stable, as it is THE highest grossing media franchise EVER, by a motherfucking country mile. But they also had rights to other WILDLY popular series like Naruto and Bleach that were still actively running at the time, and also had SOOOOOOOO much merchandising (toys, games, clothes, etc.), as well as stuff like InuYasha and Death Note, which weren't QUITE as heavily merchandised (InuYasha barely had any toys or games, and Death Note had practically none), but still huge sellers nonetheless.

What do you guys think? Am I missing anything in my history? Or am I just blatantly getting wrong basic business facts about what parts of these IPs and franchises the anime distribution companies actually got their money from? Lemme know!
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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by TechExpert2021 » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:01 pm

If Funimation either had lost the rights to the Dragon Ball IP in the late 2000s or didn't have the rights to it in the first place and didn't have any other IP that could print bazillions of money for them at that time, then they would easily collapse along with other collapsing anime licensing companies like the ones you've mentioned. But I couldn't think of any other anime Funimation had the rights to outside Dragon Ball that helped them survive and transform them into a large anime licensing monopoly in that era.
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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:52 pm

Until they licensed YuYu Hakusho in 2002 the only non-Dragon Ball projects they had was Cyboars and some Chuck E.Cheese promotional VHS. They likely wouldn't have survived as a company past the 90s, well before they restructured themselves from kids entertainment company to an anime licensing company, if they hadn't acquired Dragon Ball.

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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Oct 03, 2024 9:55 pm

I don't think we know enough to make that call. The fact is that they did have Dragon Ball (Z) and that was enough to keep them afloat. If they didn't, maybe they would have changed their business strategies or pivoted. We can't just judge something based on 20/20 hindsight while taking away a component. Like, would Lexus have survived without the RX? I'm willing to bet they would've thought of something else.

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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by Saiya6Cit » Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:22 pm

Your story seems accurate to me, but I am not an american.

You know what they say, if you want to know where you are wrong, post it online.

One programmer once told me that when he would ask for help with some code he was having issues with, no one would help, but when he would post his code under a title that indicated his code was the only correct way to do it, many people almost immediately would reply by telling him what was wrong with it and what was the correct wat to actually do it. It worked for him. It should work for you.

Dragon Ball was the series that conquered America. It opened the market for the humongous industry of anime. It benefit coutless of company, it still does... as much Toei Animation let's them.

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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:50 am

Who knows, but they had it and everybody else didnt, so....sucks to suck!

Ultimately, the property was integral to their success and so it's a moot point to say they wouldn't have survived without. Like, no shit. But they got it and made a lot of money off of it. You can play the game with every big company.

Would McDonald's have become a global phenomenon without pioneering a quick and efficient fast food model? Probably not.

Would Nintendo have survived the video game crash without Super Mario Bros? Probably not.

Would Nike have become the most influential athletic wear brand without Michael Jordan? Probably not.

Would the WWF had been able to cannibalize the entire wrestling business in the 80s without Hulk Hogan? Probably not.

Would the United States federal government have been able to fund communism-destabilizing military coups in South American countries AND mass incarcerate a disproportionate percentage of ethnic minorities in order to maintain the free labor and disenfranchisement that susyains capitalism without crack cocaine? Probably not!

But they all had those things, so they did. Every ultra successful company has some key differentiatior from the competition that does all the heavy lifting (and/or ethically dubious business practices).
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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by Vegetto95 » Fri Oct 04, 2024 12:00 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:50 am Would the United States federal government have been able to fund communism-destabilizing military coups in South American countries AND mass incarcerate a disproportionate percentage of ethnic minorities in order to maintain the free labor and disenfranchisement that sustains capitalism without crack cocaine? Probably not!
Well, as a died in the wool lefty... that bit just absolutely made my day! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Fri Oct 04, 2024 3:44 pm

One B. Watson immediately sunk once he left the company and tried to continue his own brand of anime localizations, so the answer is probably clear from that alone :p

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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Oct 04, 2024 4:12 pm

Probably not, best case scenario they would have been bought by a larger company and existed in name only, like Manga Entertainment (US branch for like the last decade of its existence).

Without Dragon Ball it would have been hard to compete with 4Kids dominating the shounen market with the monstrously successful Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh.

I also think people only stuck with the Texas cast in the early days of the inhouse dub because it was Dragon Ball. If it was any other anime Funimation would have crashed and burned.

They may have still started out dubbing other shows with the Ocean cast but once they hired local talent anime fans would have stopped watching their dubs when the voice acting talent went from good to awful.
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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Oct 04, 2024 4:34 pm

GhostEmperorX wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 3:44 pm One B. Watson immediately sunk once he left the company and tried to continue his own brand of anime localizations, so the answer is probably clear from that alone :p
This is a really important point. Illumitoon existed for like a single year.
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 4:12 pm Probably not, best case scenario they would have been bought by a larger company and existed in name only, like Manga Entertainment (US branch for like the last decade of its existence).
Important to remember that this DID happen: FUNimation was fully acquired by Navarre in 2005, only a little over a decade into their existence. That lasted for about five years until Navarre kinda changed strategies back to plain ol' distribution rather than also licensing, and Fukunaga basically bought it back on the cheap in 2011, weathering and taking full advantage of the financial crisis time period.

jjgp1112 otherwise summarized things and the situation as best anyone else could, so the only other thing I'll add is -- and I'm sorry I can't find the original source right this second, but I'll edit it in if I can -- is that FUNimation admitted at one point that Dragon Ball accounted for a full HALF of their profits.
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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by Vegetto95 » Fri Oct 04, 2024 5:02 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 4:12 pm I also think people only stuck with the Texas cast in the early days of the inhouse dub because it was Dragon Ball. If it was any other anime Funimation would have crashed and burned.

They may have still started out dubbing other shows with the Ocean cast but once they hired local talent anime fans would have stopped watching their dubs when the voice acting talent went from good to awful.
Eh, I dunno if I'd say it went from good to awful. I see people praising the Ocean cast compared to the local in-house FUNimation cast all the time, and I just don't see it.

Were the Ocean VAs maybe slightly better than the FUNimation VAs, especially back then in the late 90s-early 2000s? Sure, to a small extent. But that's really just an exercise in polishing a turd. Most of the line deliveries were still super stiff, and the voices themselves were all the same silly Saturday morning He-Man/Transformers kiddie cartoon caricatures that the FUNi cast were trying to imitate.

I mean, just take a listen to Terry Klassen's nasally, high-pitched nerdy voice for Kuririn. Or Pauline Newstone's old smoker hag voice for Freeza. Or Don Brown's dumb, blubbery, cottonmouth idiot voice for Kaiō. Or god forbid, Brian Drummond's Starscream-esque, high pitched, weaselly henchman voice for Vegeta. Or the ridiculously over-the-top hillbilly grandpa voice (forget who voiced him) for Muten Rōshi. I mean, I could go on and on, but those are just some of the more prominent and egregious ones that were particularly unfitting for the specific characters.

And let's be fair... the in-house Texan FUNi cast were simply doing what they were told... really bad impressions of those really dumb cartoon voices from average-at-best voice actors who, even to this day nearly three whole decades later, are hyped up WAY more than their disappointing performances really deserve because they just so happened to at the time already be "professionals" in the industry, unlike their successors. FUNimation was just trying to make the changeover from being Ocean and Saban-assisted to doing it entirely on their own as smooth as possible for their target audience of six year olds, and it's a shame that those are the voices that have stuck with the franchise in America ever since, despite how absolutely antithetical and mistaken an approach it all was right from the very getgo back in 1995/6.

So really, it wasn't so much that going from the "professional" Ocean actors to the amateur FUNi local Texans was going from good to awful... nah, it was much moreso a case of going from
Image
to
Image
:lol: :lol:

And yet, in spite of all that, in spite of now going on 29 years worth of horrible voice acting for Dragon Ball in America thanks to our pals at (formerly known as) FUNimation Entertainment, Dragon Ball (and for a LOOONG time, Dragon Ball alone) helped them to survive and thrive. But, to pull from a few shows you mentioned before, kids in the late 90s/early 2000s weren't exactly deterred from bad voice acting, terrible scripts, censorship, etc. in their anime dubs, as evidenced by the similar popularity of the godawful dubs for series like Pokémon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Digimon (hell, as much as I still for the most part enjoy the original few Digimon anime in Japanese, I can't stand Pokémon or Yu-Gi-Oh! even in their superior original language versions, but that's just me). I'm sorry, but any grown adult (hell, most teenagers should be smart enough for this) who listens to, say, Dan Green's Yugi or Veronica Taylor's "Ash" and can't tell how stiff and forced and awful they sound needs an ear exam.

But, all that said, allow me to slightly misquote The Dude: Yeah... well... you know... that's just like my opinion, man.
Last edited by Vegetto95 on Fri Oct 04, 2024 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by Vegetto95 » Fri Oct 04, 2024 5:29 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 4:34 pm Important to remember that this DID happen: FUNimation was fully acquired by Navarre in 2005, only a little over a decade into their existence. That lasted for about five years until Navarre kinda changed strategies back to plain ol' distribution rather than also licensing, and Fukunaga basically bought it back on the cheap in 2011, weathering and taking full advantage of the financial crisis time period.
One, I had definitely forgotten about the whole Navarre thing. I remember seeing the Navarre logos on some FUNi DVDs I used to have in the mid-late 2000s, and I remember having read about the specifics of that whole saga many years ago, but had since forgotten what the exact timeframe was on all that. Thanks!

Two, I had ALSO forgotten about the Great Recession that began in 2008, suspiiiciously close to when all the aforementioned companies started dying one after another (well, it slipped my mind at least... kiiinda hard as an American who was in my late teens at the time to forget that lol). Really, I think a lot of it has to do with (and I've seen this talked about elsewhere in the past, and I THIIIINK you might have brought it up in a podcast episode or two many many moons ago??) the fact that the whole business model of most, if not all, of those companies was predicated on gradually releasing shows on DVD in individual single volumes over the course of a few months to a year or so that each usually had at most four or five episodes on them (often followed soon after by a complete collection multi-disc set).

With the economic downturn, people didn't have as much disposable income, and it became pretty financially unfeasible for most people to spend often $15-20 on a single disc that only had a portion of a series, especially for multiple series that they liked, and do so again every few months until they completed the set. Add to that the fact that collecting physical copies of anime as a whole was still a fairly niche hobby for most people back in the mid-late 2000s even before the Recesssion, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Now, FUNimation (and Viz) were both still doing the same exact thing with their DVD releasing at that time as well, but again, I think most of why and how they weathered the storm when ADV/Manga/Bandai/Geneon, etc. couldn't was the overwhelming strength of the Dragon Ball, Pokémon, Naruto, etc. IPs that were HEAVILY merchandised, something that those other companies sadly lacked (and of course, Viz's manga side, which the other companies also VERY much lacked).
FUNimation admitted at one point that Dragon Ball accounted for a full HALF of their profits.
That does not surprise me in the least. And it backs up guesses quite a bit :lol:

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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 04, 2024 5:51 pm

FUNimation only existed because Fukunaga begged a wealthy friend to pony up the cash to form their own business so that he could license Dragon Ball, so it would be quite poetic for the empire to crumble without the very reason it was formed in the first place.
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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Oct 05, 2024 12:50 pm

No. Dragon Ball is what made the company popular in the first place.
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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Thu Oct 10, 2024 4:09 am

The only other property that could hold the same value as Dragon Ball is One Piece. And, while it's popular internationally it's (as far as I can tell) far less popular than it is in Japan where it's the best selling manga of all time. Even then I don't know if Funimation had exclusive licensing rights to One Piece like they do with Dragon Ball. Guess that's a moot point after the Crunchyroll merger.
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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu Oct 10, 2024 6:02 am

BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 4:09 am The only other property that could hold the same value as Dragon Ball is One Piece. And, while it's popular internationally it's (as far as I can tell) far less popular than it is in Japan where it's the best selling manga of all time. Even then I don't know if Funimation had exclusive licensing rights to One Piece like they do with Dragon Ball. Guess that's a moot point after the Crunchyroll merger.
I haven't seen the 4Kids dub of One Piece, but I've heard a lot of people (and these are 4Kids dub defenders no-less) say it hurt the shows potential in English-speaking territories because of how unfaithful it was.

When Funimation licensed One Piece in 2007 and took over from where 4Kids left off Naruto and Bleach were already the new hotness. Of course Funimation went back and redubbed those first few arcs and everything else since then, but the fans that wanted an accurate dub had become a minority, whereas if the show was treated right from the beginning not as many potential fans would have been turned away.

One Piece first came to the US in 2004, which was before Funimation were bought out by Navarre. So in a world where Funimation didn't license Dragon Ball the question would be whether or not they could have afforded whatever TOEI was asking for One Piece, and whether they would have lasted up until that point.
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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by Tian » Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:20 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 6:02 am I haven't seen the 4Kids dub of One Piece, but I've heard a lot of people (and these are 4Kids dub defenders no-less) say it hurt the shows potential in English-speaking territories because of how unfaithful it was.
I've read somewhere that even employees at 4Kids hated working on One Piece.

Of course, they didn't hate the series itself but they hated the way they handled the series. They were aware that One Piece was a show incompatible for both the company and the station that aired it.

4Kids only acquired One Piece because Toei forced them to. They were offered a bundle of series, which contained Kinnikuman, Magical Doremi and One Piece. 4Kids was only actually interested in the first two but Toei would let them license those, only if One Piece was licensed as well.

It didn't help that the poor employees weren't given any screening or hints of One Piece before they started to work on it.
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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Sat Oct 12, 2024 4:02 pm

Disregarding, as someone else pointed out, that FUNi only existed because of Dragonball. If they did not have Dragon Ball, they would have gotten something else. They would essentially be one of their contemporaries with a different show. The real questions are: How would the company who did get Dragon Ball have treated it and How would FUNi have treated whatever show they did manage to get?
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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Oct 12, 2024 4:40 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2024 4:02 pm Disregarding, as someone else pointed out, that FUNi only existed because of Dragonball. If they did not have Dragon Ball, they would have gotten something else. They would essentially be one of their contemporaries with a different show. The real questions are: How would the company who did get Dragon Ball have treated it and How would FUNi have treated whatever show they did manage to get?
You're assuming whatever theoretical show they licensed instead would have print money for them like Dragon Ball. More than likely that wouldn't have been the case.

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Re: Would FUNimation even have survived were it not for Dragon Ball?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sat Oct 12, 2024 9:35 pm

And they wouldn't even have gotten anything else because they had no experience and they wouldn't have a connection on the other side with any other company to get it for them.

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