What if Piccolo learned the kaioken?

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:37 am

Willy_Simms wrote: Obviously. In fact he would be in the billions.

Based on what exactly?

In the Jinzoningen arc, we see Piccolo in the same strength bracket as a Super Saiya-jin, and then only after re-uniting with Kami, is he evenly matched with No. 17, are you saying that fusing with Kami, and hanging out in the Room of Spirit and Time for a year placed him in the billions because after that there's nothing to suggest (that I know of) that Piccolo kept up any kind of rigorous training.

I think the 150,000,000 estimate is a little conservative seeing as that was Super Saiya-jin Goku's Battle power on Namek (according to the Daizenshuu anyway), and he's definitely above that.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:43 am

Captain Awesome wrote:I think the 150,000,000 estimate is a little conservative seeing as that was Super Saiya-jin Goku's Battle power on Namek (according to the Daizenshuu anyway), and he's definitely above that.

When? Before or after fusing with Kami?

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:59 am

Rocketman wrote:
Captain Awesome wrote:I think the 150,000,000 estimate is a little conservative seeing as that was Super Saiya-jin Goku's Battle power on Namek (according to the Daizenshuu anyway), and he's definitely above that.
When? Before or after fusing with Kami?

After.

I like to think that Piccolo pre-Kami is in the same power bracket (that is to say hundreds of millions if you want to think that way) as the Super Saiya-jins, I always considered him to be around Freeza's level (120,000,000), but thats just me.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:07 am

I really wanna know how a Namekian gains one hundred nineteen million points.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:58 am

This has been argued before.

It seems ridiculous, but you can't deny that at the start of the Jinzoningen arc Piccolo is somewhat comparable to a Super Saiya-jin.

You'll have to blame Toriyama for that one.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:27 pm

Rocketman wrote:I really wanna know how a Namekian gains one hundred nineteen million points.

Training with a Super Saiyan for three years.

Big Momma · Post by **Big Momma** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:35 pm

Raki wrote:I think Piccolo could have handled a Kaio-ken x4. That's about it....

"Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his posts per day?!"
"They're over 90!!!"

Thank you, Raki, for trying to stay on Topic. I can understand maybe a couple posts in the thread to tell him, but can the rest of this be done in PM's?

Anyway, it really depends on how rough Nameks are built, I think. Are they as tough as Saiyans? Can they take more a beating?

Big Momma · Post by **Big Momma** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:36 pm

Big Momma wrote:
Raki wrote:I think Piccolo could have handled a Kaio-ken x4. That's about it....
"Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his posts per day?!"
"They're over 90!!!"

Anyway, it really depends on how rough Nameks are built, I think. Are they as tough as Saiyans? Can they take more a beating?

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:47 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:This has been argued before.

It seems ridiculous, but you can't deny that at the start of the Jinzoningen arc Piccolo is somewhat comparable to a Super Saiya-jin.

You'll have to blame Toriyama for that one.

I'm not arguing against you, because I agree with what you say. But since Piccolo is comparable to a SSJ, and SSJ multiples the users pl x50, then that means that Piccolo would have been at least 20 or 30 times (or more) stronger than Goku's base?... That's a little crazy. Considering Goku's base was stronger than Piccolo to begin with.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:43 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:It seems ridiculous, but you can't deny that at the start of the Jinzoningen arc Piccolo is somewhat comparable to a Super Saiya-jin.

Yes I can. Especially if we're rolling with the 150,000,000 for Namek SSJ Goku.

Training with a Super Saiyan for three years.

Hey, who else is that in that shot? Could it be... Gohan? A demiSaiyan whose entire gimmick is getting insanely powerful with no effort? Who "trained with a Super Saiyan for three years" but was lumped in with the humans when the Androids rolled around? Possibly.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:11 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:
Rocketman wrote:I really wanna know how a Namekian gains one hundred nineteen million points.
Training with a Super Saiyan for three years.

I always did wish the Anime would have covered a sparring session or two during those three years. I'm sure Gohan and Piccolo would have liked to know about Super Saiyan.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:13 pm

JulieYBM wrote:I always did wish the Anime would have covered a sparring session or two during those three years.

It did. Episode 124, I believe.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:31 pm

Rocketman wrote:Hey, who else is that in that shot? Could it be... Gohan? A demiSaiyan whose entire gimmick is getting insanely powerful with no effort? Who "trained with a Super Saiyan for three years" but was lumped in with the humans when the Androids rolled around? Possibly.

Well, for one thing, Piccolo was much stronger than Gohan in the first place...

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:47 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:
Rocketman wrote:Hey, who else is that in that shot? Could it be... Gohan? A demiSaiyan whose entire gimmick is getting insanely powerful with no effort? Who "trained with a Super Saiyan for three years" but was lumped in with the humans when the Androids rolled around? Possibly.
Well, for one thing, Piccolo was much stronger than Gohan in the first place...

Not when you add a hundred twenty million to both of them.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:40 pm

Rocketman wrote: Yes I can. Especially if we're rolling with the 150,000,000 for Namek SSJ Goku.

So I take it you're one of the "Goku was using an invisible Kaio Ken the entire time" people, since you seem to be against any numbers in the hundreds of millions.

Fossilgojir · Post by **Fossilgojir** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:52 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:
Rocketman wrote: Yes I can. Especially if we're rolling with the 150,000,000 for Namek SSJ Goku.
So I take it you're one of the "Goku was using an invisible Kaio Ken the entire time" people, since you seem to be against any numbers in the hundreds of millions.

Was that in the manga aswell or was it just in the anime?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:52 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:So I take it you're one of the "Goku was using an invisible Kaio Ken the entire time" people, since you seem to be against any numbers in the hundreds of millions.

It's less nonsensical than the alternative.

Fossilgojir wrote:Was that in the manga aswell or was it just in the anime?

King Kai does say "he's already using the Kaioken x10" in the manga, and there are a few panels where his eyes white out like when he uses it but without the aura.

Fossilgojir · Post by **Fossilgojir** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:06 pm

Rocketman wrote:King Kai does say "he's already using the Kaioken x10" in the manga, and there are a few panels where his eyes white out like when he uses it but without the aura.

Makes sense, Toriyama must have made a mistake or just forgot, a chapter a week isn't easy!

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:39 pm

Rocketman wrote:It's less nonsensical than the alternative.

Not really. It's a freaking manga, they can get as strong as Toriyama wants. You didn't write the story, so you can't just throw around your theories as fact.

Plus, this "invisible Kaiô-Ken" was never seen before (against Vegeta, or even against Captain Ginyu, when he had a very clear aura) or after (when he uses the Kaiô-Ken x 20 on Freeza. Again, a very clear aura). And it's never brought up anywhere in any of the Daizenshuu.

Rocketman wrote:King Kai does say "he's already using the Kaioken x10" in the manga, and there are a few panels where his eyes white out like when he uses it but without the aura.

He just so happens to say that right after a visible aura started to appear around Goku. Right after Goku and Freeza decide to end their "warm up." To me, that sounds like Freeza deciding to raise his power to a higher percentage, and Goku deciding to pull out his secret weapon (notice that he does the same thing against Nappa. He fights in base at first, even saying "I won't be using the Kaiô-Ken on you yet."). That's classic Toriyama; a character holds back their full power to surprise the reader.

Also, note that Goku refers to his higher levels of Kaiô-Ken as "using my power in bursts" after showing Ginyu his Kaiô-Ken. How is using a constant Kaiô-Ken x 10 for, like, a 20 minute fight using his power in "bursts"? This looks like a "burst" to me:

Also, the actual line is "He's using the Kaiô-Ken x 10 right now..."