Is the split explanation of the Potara fusion in Daima a Ret-Con or not?

[M16U3L2015]

What do you think?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Technically it shouldn't be, and rather it's an additional explanation for how potara fusions can defuse.

Goku and Vegeta were mortals so there's an explanation for Vegetto that wouldn't apply to Kibitoshin.

Now Daima has to explain why Supreme Kai and Kibito refused and why they disregarded Elder Kai's advice in Super by abusing the Dragon Balls when they could have used Majin Boo anytime, oh yeah, I guess because he was conveniently "sleeping" every time they tried to ask .

[Luso Saiyan]

It's a retcon from what they said happened in Super, not of Potara fusion itself.

My guess is that this is the first time Toriyama got to explain how they defused as part of the story, while in Super the team working on it had to come up with an explanation for why they show up defused from the story they got from Toriyama at the time.

[ZombieVito]

Yes.

And it just creates too much headaches.

1) Why did Kibitoshin stay fused 4 years if he hated it?
2) Why did he use the Namekian Dragon Balls to unfuse? Was Boo asleep?
3) Why didn't Goku ask Shin in the U6 arc about them using Boo instead of the balls to defuse?
4) Why did Goku ask Gowasu the reason they defused in the Boo arc if he already should know it?

[nato25]

Yeah unfortunately if you take super into account, there is obvious problems with this explanation in Daima and Goku being fused. Moreso if Supreme Kai and Kibito don't refuse by the end.

Not that I think the hour limit on non-god fusions is now gone, this is additional lore that unfortunately contradicts some events in Super.

Unless we get a rewind or "everyone will forget all this happened" at the end of Daima I guess

[Jord]

Since Super-related stuff isn't mentioned Daima takes either place before Super (becomes a crowded time line, lol) or Super isn't canon anymore.

[Luso Saiyan]

Don't forget that in Toriyama's outline in Super, there was no Vegito. So the whole fusion and Potara discussion probably didn't come from him.

[LoganForkHands73]

Don't forget that in Toriyama's outline in Super, there was no Vegito. So the whole fusion and Potara discussion probably didn't come from him.

This feels like the most obvious explanation a lot of people seems to be missing.

Shin and Kibito defusing in Super is such a trivial plot point, one that I wouldn't blame Toriyama at all for either forgetting or ignoring. "Oh yeah, Kibitoshin used the Dragon Balls to wish to be defused offscreen."

In Toriyama's world, Potara fusion is completely permanent unless you're absorbed by Majin Buu. Simple, uncomplicated.

All of the additional convoluted reveals about the Potara mechanics that we got in Super were contrived to excuse how Vegetto could make a fan-pleasing return without remaining permanently fused throughout the entire series. Toriyama explicitly did not want Vegetto to return in Super until convinced otherwise by Toyotaro. Thus, we got this retcon that Potara are only permanent when used by gods but temporary when used by mortals, explaining that Vegetto splitting inside Buu had nothing to do with the weird bodily gases. The new Potara rules later came into play again with Kefla's introduction, but that may be another element that Toriyama did not have too much personal involvement with.

People still fall into this trap of thinking that Toriyama was incredibly invested in every minute detail of Super when most evidence indicates that it was a side project he was largely stewarded in a favourable direction from a comfortable distance, outside of the movie scripts, key story beats, gags and some character designs. I can't imagine he was allotting too much brainspace to remember stuff about Super's portrayal of Vegetto when it wasn't something he even wanted to include.

[Gashaponista]

Yes.

And it just creates too much headaches.

1) Why did Kibitoshin stay fused 4 years if he hated it?
2) Why did he use the Namekian Dragon Balls to unfuse? Was Boo asleep?
3) Why didn't Goku ask Shin in the U6 arc about them using Boo instead of the balls to defuse?
4) Why did Goku ask Gowasu the reason they defused in the Boo arc if he already should know it?

5) And why didn't Kibito know the reason why Shin wanted to defuse if they were sharing their minds?

[Rory]

Since Super-related stuff isn't mentioned Daima takes either place before Super (becomes a crowded time line, lol) or Super isn't canon anymore.

I vote number 2!

[emperior]

It’s still too early to say!

This does not retcon the anime of Dragon Ball Super, regarding the additional explanation by Gowasu. There, Goku just asks if it’s permanent. And Shin does not comment.

They may still fuse again by the end of Daima.

[Cold Skin]

Since Super-related stuff isn't mentioned Daima takes either place before Super (becomes a crowded time line, lol) or Super isn't canon anymore.

There is zero chance of Super not being canon anymore due to a celebrating 20+ episodes mini-series that takes place right after Boo rather than a full-fledged series+manga+canon movies. Daima is a welcomed bonus adventure, which either fits in the core events already established or is set in its own section, but it certainly doesn't kick out what's now clearly established as the core continuity in all products, even the one released just yesterday.

Super is being put front and center as what happened after the Z events in all possible media now more than ever. It's considered part of the core story and the current status quo of the characters.
Beerus and Whis, the God forms, Universe 6, the Zamasu incident, the Tournament of Power, Ultra Instinct, the main Broly and the Cell Max incident aren't going anywhere, and rightfully so.

So either at the end of the mini-series, Daima can be put before Super - with a few incoherences or not - or Daima ends up being really too divergent by the time it ends and is like a fun "DBZ movie" extra adventure : happening in another continuity that bears no consequence on what's considered the core story that really happened.
It's as simple as that.

Remember, on one side you have a fun celebration mini-series for a few months meant as an extra adventure to temporarily bring you back to the roots as a fun break.
On the other, you have a long set of medias clearly represented as how the core story continued all over the medias, and more and more as time goes by, with the peak of it being just yesterday.
Things are pretty clear.

[Luso Saiyan]

People still fall into this trap of thinking that Toriyama was incredibly invested in every minute detail of Super when most evidence indicates that it was a side project he was largely stewarded in a favourable direction from a comfortable distance, outside of the movie scripts, key story beats, gags and some character designs. I can't imagine he was allotting too much brainspace to remember stuff about Super's portrayal of Vegetto when it wasn't something he even wanted to include.

Exactly. I'm pretty confident that he's been consistent with the stories he developed for Super and the movies. But he's not and never was responsible for the "filler" those in charge put into the adaptations (both manga and anime) for their final products. He's not bound to that and didn't have to be.

And Daima will be no different in that respect.

[ZombieVito]

It’s still too early to say!

This does not retcon the anime of Dragon Ball Super, regarding the additional explanation by Gowasu. There, Goku just asks if it’s permanent. And Shin does not comment.

They may still fuse again by the end of Daima.

Goku asks why they defused when he should already know the reason since Shin tells him in Daima.

[Zephyr]

Both explanations are compatible. They are not indicative of a change in continuity, even if it makes certain exchanges between characters make no sense. That they name drop Universe 7 (and show Minus Bardock) should cut off everyone's copium that Super (and its related stuff like Jaco and DB-) is getting GT'd.

See also: them apparently using the Dragon Balls to turn Boo into a good guy doesn't track with.....the Boo arc, where he becomes good without the use of the Dragon Balls. Doesn't mean the Boo arc isn't in Daima's continuity. It's just a classic case of Toriyama/Toei Writers™ (whichever one we feel like blaming this week) carelessly neglecting already-established details.

[Mr Baggins]

In addition to what Zephyr said, we'd have no clue that the Namekians relocated to Universes 6 and 7 from another realm if it wasn't for Super.

They are 100% the same continuity.

[emperior]

Super is obviously still canon. But it’s sad people hate it to so much they wish it wasn’t. For sure many will be liking Daima more due to it being pre-Super (and post-buu arc, which everyone is most familiar with).

By the way certain leakers who obviously were in the know regarding Daima have commented that there are plans to follow up on its story in the future with Super.

[super michael]

Technically it shouldn't be, and rather it's an additional explanation for how potara fusions can defuse.

Goku and Vegeta were mortals so there's an explanation for Vegetto that wouldn't apply to Kibitoshin.

Now Daima has to explain why Supreme Kai and Kibito refused and why they disregarded Elder Kai's advice in Super by abusing the Dragon Balls when they could have used Majin Boo anytime, oh yeah, I guess because he was conveniently "sleeping" every time they tried to ask .

In Dragon Ball Super anime the fusion between Zamasu and Goku Black is permanent.
In Dragon Ball Super manga the fusion between Zamasu and Goku Black is temporary, however they managed to force their fusion to be permanent, due to them being the same soul.

Even though they are both DBS, their rules are different.

[MisteryOne]

Yes, it directly contradicts what was shown in both the anime and specially the manga of Super.

It being a retcon doesn't mean Daima is not supposed to not be in continuity with Super tho. If people already get that idea from this single contradiction, I have no idea what you guys thought about Super itself until the Moro arc recontextualized Uub in EoZ to still be worthy Goku's attention.

They will just fuse again at the end, throw some random gag at it, and hope people don't mind that much. We are going to br in a very wild ride if suddenly people think a retcon makes Daima non-canon to Super.

Technically it shouldn't be, and rather it's an additional explanation for how potara fusions can defuse.

Goku and Vegeta were mortals so there's an explanation for Vegetto that wouldn't apply to Kibitoshin.

Now Daima has to explain why Supreme Kai and Kibito refused and why they disregarded Elder Kai's advice in Super by abusing the Dragon Balls when they could have used Majin Boo anytime, oh yeah, I guess because he was conveniently "sleeping" every time they tried to ask .

In Dragon Ball Super anime the fusion between Zamasu and Goku Black is permanent.
In Dragon Ball Super manga the fusion between Zamasu and Goku Black is temporary, however they managed to force their fusion to be permanent, due to them being the same soul.

Even though they are both DBS, their rules are different.

The rules are no different. They still are "only Kaioshins have permanent fusions". But in the manga, Zamasu was never considered a Kaioshin because he was never promoted to one.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Yeah, as I said there was a rule that applied to Vegetto and not Kaioshin. In the Super anime it was established the potara earings had a time limit for mortals, so Vegetto defused because neither Goku nor Vegeta were Gods in base form.

Fused Zamasu was also unstable, as seen by the right half turning into a purple slime. This was because Goku's mortal body was part of the fusion making it technically not permanent.

We never see anything of the sort with Kibitoshin because both Supreme Kai and Kibito were Kaioshins and will remain permanently fused unless they use some other means (like Boo or the Namekian Dragon Balls) to defuse themselves.

The problem with this new explanation is that it means Kibitoshin wasted a wish on the Namekian Dragon Balls to defuse in Super and retroactively assumes Vegetto was absorbed by Boo and was exposed to the bad air just as his time limit expired, which is an insane coincidence.

If Vegetto didn't defuse as normal against fused Zamasu we could at least say Gowasu was just taking a wild guess, but the fact they defused without something like Boo's insides means we have to take that explanation (which as I said makes Kibitoshin using the Dragon Balls look redundant) into consideration.