Cerealians Stronger than the Saiyans?

[Yasai9001]

Looking back in Dragon Ball Super Chapter 77, we see how the Saiyans immediately start their invasion on the Cerealians by transforming under the full moon. None of the Cerealians were aware of the cause of their transformation until much later during the fight. Unfortunately, it was too late for them because of how worn out, exhausted, and drained the Cerealians and Namibians were from having to deal with the Saiyan Oozarus.

One thing that comes to mind though is Flayk. He managed to push back a fully grown Saiyan Oozarus by simply blasting at the moon - it wasn't his intention to strike down the Saiyan and kill him, but to rid the moon so that the Saiyans would revert to their normal forms and give his peers a fighting chance.

• Leek had a visible irritation and scar due to a tired, battle-worn Flayk's attack striking him (unintentionally).

Leek hasn't been given an official battle-power (correct me if I'm wrong), and we know that most people around this time were unable to suppress their powers to the extreme like most main characters are capable of. Leek, like most Saiyans, is also a low-class grunt (as Gas would put it).

So let's say Leek's base battle-power is anywhere from 400 (Lower-class level like Goku), or 1,200-1,500 (Low-class level like Raditz [who's in his early thirties like Vegeta]). I say around this level because if Leek were any stronger (approximately 2,000), then he would have likely been one of those snipers that got killed by Freeza at the beginning of the Broly movie. He even calls Bardock sir, and refers to him with respect due to his reputation and tenure - he's obviously younger and less experienced than Bardock, by far, also listening to him without hesitation.

Leek's transformation could put him anywhere from 4,000 to 15,000 based off the numbers I gave. Even if we low-balled Leek even further and assumed his Oozarus battle-power to be 3,000 (300 base), and seeing that Flayk's powered up attack being capable of doing some kind of significant damage to him despite not being aimed for him - that could put Flayk's battle-power in the 1,000-2,000 range easily. Again, this is if we are LOWBALLING Leek. We know there's virtually no way he (Leek) would go into this mission that weak. He'd probably be at home working like Gine and Beets if he had such a low battle-power.

• You have to be somewhat of a competent/strong warrior if you manage to stay on Bardock's team for an extended period of time

So Flayk, excluding his powered up attack, is a very capable warrior, and a great sniper. Unlike the Saiyans, Cerealians base their attacks at a distance, preferring to fight at far range and not getting close and personal like the Saiyans. In a way, they could potentially serve as a foil to the Saiyans, no?

Not to digress, I look at this as the Cerealians having as much, if not, MORE potential than the Saiyans over all. Yes, they don't have any transformations or anything like that, but Granolah has shown that he would be capable of achieving such heights of power if he were to work hard for it like Goku and Vegeta did.

If the Saiyans did not have the full moon as their tool, the fighting would have been a lot closer and it's likely that some Saiyans would have been outright murdered. The only reason that they came out on top was because of their transformation and the fighting that led to the Cerealians being tired and weakened from battle. If everyone was fighting at base form and everyone was 100% ready to go, it could be argued that the Saiyans' efforts in conquering Cereal would have been thwarted.

The average Saiyan is a low-class warrior, presumably weaker than Raditz even. Raditz is still a low-class but was put on Nappa's team because of his potential as a child, sent on a fast track to being a combatant. Having Vegeta join shortly after is nothing more than a testament to Raditz's skill and potential as a young child, being graced by working alongside Prince Vegeta.

• So most of these basic low-class Saiyan warriors could range from the mid hundreds to high hundreds, and some at the low 1,000s.

Someone like Flayk I believe would have been able to take out a number of Saiyans if they had not transformed as well as other Cerealians. They simply lost because of the disadvantage. It would have taken the mid-class (Saiyan royal Guard) to go and conquer them, alongside higher ranking Freeza soldiers (think Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, etc).

Do you guys believe that the Cerealians are naturally stronger than your average Saiyan as a race based off what I just said? Or does it hold no weight? Thoughts and opinions would be appreciated. Just something I JUST thought about while reading the manga again.

[Yuji]

I wouldn't doubt it. Saiyans pre-Saiyan arc owe their success to genetic cheat codes like the Oozaru transformation and near-death boosts. We know Saiyan society peaks at 10,000 with King Vegeta, the elite classes range from 2k to 4k or above (the snipers presumably, Nappa, Paragus), Prince Vegeta himself is an exception and the strongest Saiyan in modern history barring anomalies like Broly.

Beets is a non combatant and he confirms he's weaker than Broly's 920 at the time. But Raditz still thought Goku could be of use. So low class Saiyans can probably range from 300 to 2k.

We can look at Freeza soldiers, who average around 1.5k. We can look at Namekian warriors, who average around 3k. All signs point toward low class Saiyans actually being comparatively weak when put against other fighting races' elite warriors. It's only the elite Saiyans that manage to surpass this benchmark, and then they still pale in comparison to prodigies like Nail, Zarbon and Dodoria, etc.

In the grand scheme of the universe, below 1k seems to be the average battle power even of fighters. Between 1 and 4k seems to be the average for elite/strong fighters. Above that 4k mark you are probably an exceptional individual and can be singled out as a prodigy in spite of your race.

Circling around, Cerelians seem to be a warrior race so I wouldn't be surprised if their elite fighters hang around the same Saiyan range of 2k to 10k. But of course the Oozaru transformation makes even lower class Saiyans reach and surpass these numbers, so while they can cause some damage with an unexpected shot or full powered attack, it would be hard to win, especially in an invasion.

[Yasai9001]

All of that lines up, in my opinion. The Saiyans always believed the Oozaru transformation to be an indication of their true power - all of them knew of the legend of the Super Saiyan and dismissed it, thinking it to be nothing more than a fairytale.

Their true potential was lessened due to their evil nature (S-Cells) and the fact that they relied on their transformations so much, so they didn't really give themselves the chance to grow and become strong. They relied on their innate potential and unfortunately, the majority of them didn't have extraordinary potential (they do, but you know what I mean) despite their ceiling being so high.

I believe the Cerealians are something special. Their life-spans, their evolved eyes, as well as their natural physique - the perfect foil to the Saiyans maybe?

[Magnificent Ponta]

I agree with much of your analysis about the Saiyans specifically (e.g., I agree that we're generally looking at high hundreds for Low-Class Saiyan BP, more often than not), but I don't think I really share your conclusions about the Cerealians. I think that, special attacks aside, their BPs probably range in the low hundreds.

Flayk's special attack that grazes Oozaru Leek and destroys Planet Cereal's Moon is much, much stronger than Flayk himself normally is - when Granolah uses the same attack to take out Gas in 超#86, he gathers more ki than he normally has in order to do it (Gas has already demonstrated that he is much stronger than Granolah by that point, but is shocked at how much power Granolah has gathered in the attack, and it briefly knocks him out). Moreover, the fact that it does wound Oozaru Leek doesn't mean so much when considering an exhausted Goku takes out Oozaru Vegeta's eye with the very last of his power - the power differential between exhausted Goku and Oozaru Vegeta is almost certainly greater than that between Flayk (especially with a super-powered-up special attack) and Oozaru Leek. Sometimes an unguarded hit just leaves a mark. Bardock also gets a deep scratch on his arm when Muezli attacks him, but there's no sign that she would have been serious competition for him simply because she was able to give him a superficial injury - he just didn't (bother to) defend himself.

More importantly, Taro when de-transformed kills Flayk in one shot anyway, and then the rest mop up the remaining Cerealians without obvious trouble. You can say it's because they're tired I guess, but given the Cerealians have brief hope of victory before they're quickly disabused of the idea, it seems they didn't consider tiredness to be much of a factor there. The Saiyans are just too strong anyway. I don't think the incursion would have been particularly competitive if the Saiyans hadn't been transformed - it's probable that they might well have taken a few more serious casualties if people like Flayk were firing off unusual moves like that at them, and it would very likely have taken longer than a single evening to subdue the population and conquer the planet, but there's no real sign that the outcome would have been in doubt such that they'd've needed stronger backup than what they already brought to the battle.

[Yasai9001]

I agree with much of your analysis about the Saiyans specifically (e.g., I agree that we're generally looking at high hundreds for Low-Class Saiyan BP, more often than not), but I don't think I really share your conclusions about the Cerealians. I think that, special attacks aside, their BPs probably range in the low hundreds.

Flayk's special attack that grazes Oozaru Leek and destroys Planet Cereal's Moon is much, much stronger than Flayk himself normally is - when Granolah uses the same attack to take out Gas in 超#86, he gathers more ki than he normally has in order to do it (Gas has already demonstrated that he is much stronger than Granolah by that point, but is shocked at how much power Granolah has gathered in the attack, and it briefly knocks him out). Moreover, the fact that it does wound Oozaru Leek doesn't mean so much when considering an exhausted Goku takes out Oozaru Vegeta's eye with the very last of his power - the power differential between exhausted Goku and Oozaru Vegeta is almost certainly greater than that between Flayk (especially with a super-powered-up special attack) and Oozaru Leek. Sometimes an unguarded hit just leaves a mark. Bardock also gets a deep scratch on his arm when Muezli attacks him, but there's no sign that she would have been serious competition for him simply because she was able to give him a superficial injury - he just didn't (bother to) defend himself.

More importantly, Taro when de-transformed kills Flayk in one shot anyway, and then the rest mop up the remaining Cerealians without obvious trouble. You can say it's because they're tired I guess, but given the Cerealians have brief hope of victory before they're quickly disabused of the idea, it seems they didn't consider tiredness to be much of a factor there. The Saiyans are just too strong anyway. I don't think the incursion would have been particularly competitive if the Saiyans hadn't been transformed - it's probable that they might well have taken a few more serious casualties if people like Flayk were firing off unusual moves like that at them, and it would very likely have taken longer than a single evening to subdue the population and conquer the planet, but there's no real sign that the outcome would have been in doubt such that they'd've needed stronger backup than what they already brought to the battle.

These are all valid arguments. The ability to concentrate their ki into a single focal point, in addition of being super precise with their red eyes (able to find weak points and pressure points), would most definitely help them for sure. Monaito had a battle power of 213. I would suppose the Cerealians could range from the 400 to upper mid hundreds? What do you think about that range?

And as for your point in regards to Goku injuring Oozaru Vegeta's eye - that's a point I can't even begin to try and argue. That thought had not crossed my mind in the slightest to be honest with you. Excellent point.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Monaito had a battle power of 213. I would suppose the Cerealians could range from the 400 to upper mid hundreds? What do you think about that range?

Personally I try to frame things by comparison and extrapolation to get a rough sense of things like this, even though the conclusions drawn would be very speculative - so, for instance, we can take Bardock in this arc as an example of the kind of thing I mean. When I look at Monaito attacking Bardock and him no-selling it, I automatically am tempted to compare with Piccolo attacking Raditz when they first meet, to similar effect. If the Monaito:Bardock power relationship is similar to Piccolo:Raditz (i.e., a 322:1500 ratio), Bardock comes out of the calculation with a BP of 992. For me, that works well for a couple of reasons:

• Toriyama has commented that Bardock isn't quite good enough to make his way out of Low Class status; given that 1000 BP has been touted in the broader Galaxy as a noteworthy power (e.g., Freeza is only interested in BPs of 1000 or over in Broly), this level seems to fit a Low Class Saiyan who's pushing to get higher but isn't quite there yet.
• Bardock's fight against Gas references Oozaru a couple of times. First, when Gas removes Bardock's tail, he says the fight is over now he doesn't have access to Oozaru, which implies that's the kind of boost he'd need to beat Gas. Then, when Bardock finally gains the upper hand against Gas, Gas protests that Saiyans have no 'Awakenings' other than Oozaru, which implies that's the sort of boost Bardock's getting. That would land him at 9920 BP (well, 9922 if you want to play with decimals), which would pretty much perfectly align with his stated BP in Solitary Final Battle ("By now, his Battle Power should be pretty close to 10,000"). While the Special has admittedly been substantially overwritten by later content, Toyotarou is nevertheless a massive fan of both Bardock and the Special, and that leads me to believe that he'd want to write things so they line up in some way.

So, when I see Flayk as a character with enough power to blow up the Moon to deal with Oozaru, I've got a couple of automatic Moon-busting comparators in either the Muten Roshi and his Max Power Kamehameha, or Piccolo likewise doing so with a blast. I'd be inclined to opt to highball Flayk as likely to be one of the more powerful Cerealians (he's unofficially Granolah's dad, after all), so I'd lean towards comparison with Piccolo, which would make me assume he's somewhere in the range of 300-400ish BP.

Given that he gets whomped by Taro in one hit, that range seems probably about right if Taro is somewhere near Bardock's level (which is plausible enough - in DB Minus, he's not deferential in his mode of address to Bardock like Leek is, so he's probably more like a peer, but Bardock is nevertheless the Team Leader in this arc, so is probably a bit stronger still). If Flayk's among the stronger Cerealians, you can probably push the weaker members of the species back down towards the 150ish BP range, with most falling somewhere between these two extremes - still "strong" in Human terms, and capable of surprising techniques to give a boost, but basically not on the level of the Saiyans.

As I say, all the foregoing is absolutely riddled with speculation, so take or leave it as you please; it's just how I like to frame it for myself.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Lol at Bardock being weaker than Raditz.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Lol at Bardock being weaker than Raditz.

I would welcome a cogent and thoughtful argument as to why that must not be so.

[Yuji]

Raditz was strong enough as a child to go on missions with prince Vegeta. I wouldn't doubt Bardock is weaker prior to any last-second power boosts in the Granolah arc/Z special.

[Kaboom]

Raditz being deemed strong enough as a baby to get fast-tracked into a combat role as a kid doesn't say anything about his eventual strength or rank as an adult. The older guidebook information telling us that he avoided tough fights and ended up relatively weak even by low-class standards, which jives with how Vegeta and Nappa regard him in the original story, isn't contradicted and should still stand. Meanwhile, even putting aside the real Bardock's notable "almost 10,000" power level and sticking to the piddling modern take on him, he's still said to be one of the strongest low-class fighters, in stark contrast to Raditz.

The notion of Raditz ever being stronger than Bardock is simply a leftover side effect of the misguided notion that Raditz was mid-class. If not for that misconception stemming from trying to jam those two Q&As together in incompatible ways, I really doubt anyone would be trying to convince themselves that Raditz was anything special now. Ultimately it's less about having proof that Raditz wasn't [mid-class / stronger than Bardock], and much more about having no actual evidence that he was, with a sprinkling of still-valid evidence to the contrary on top.

...Anyway, I now return you all to your regularly-scheduled program about Tsufrians Cerealians.

[Yasai9001]

Raditz being deemed strong enough as a baby to get fast-tracked into a combat role as a kid doesn't say anything about his eventual strength or rank as an adult. The older guidebook information telling us that he avoided tough fights and ended up relatively weak even by low-class standards, which jives with how Vegeta and Nappa regard him in the original story, isn't contradicted and should still stand. Meanwhile, even putting aside the real Bardock's notable "almost 10,000" power level and sticking to the piddling modern take on him, he's still said to be one of the strongest low-class fighters, in stark contrast to Raditz.

The notion of Raditz ever being stronger than Bardock is simply a leftover side effect of the misguided notion that Raditz was mid-class. If not for that misconception stemming from trying to jam those two Q&As together in incompatible ways, I really doubt anyone would be trying to convince themselves that Raditz was anything special now. Ultimately it's less about having proof that Raditz wasn't [mid-class / stronger than Bardock], and much more about having no actual evidence that he was, with a sprinkling of still-valid evidence to the contrary on top.

...Anyway, I now return you all to your regularly-scheduled program about Tsufrians Cerealians.

To be honest with you, I see Bardock being weaker than Raditz prior to his awakening battle with Gas. Bardock got damaged pretty heavily, though and likely received somewhat of a substantial boost due to the beating he took.

Raditz being more sly with his words and not into training like Vegeta and Nappa definitely plays a significant factor in regards to his strength later on as an adult. As shown during the Saiyan Saga, whenever a fighter enters that is too strong, the next Saiyan is one to jump in (Nappa jumps in for Saibamen/Vegeta tries to jump in for Nappa). Raditz is heavily reliant on his scouter, so more than likely whenever he notices a battle-power near equivalent to his own, he can have Nappa (and those other two adult Saiyans shown in the Broly movie), come in and handle it (assuming he isn't going to rely on the Oozarus transformation).

Over the years, Raditz, Nappa, those two unnamed Saiyans, and Vegeta fought together. Saiyans progress differently with their strength due to their potential (think someone like Broly and someone like Gine). I say that because think about this: how come Vegeta managed to surpass his father as a child? (We can assume any time prior to his growth spurt into his adult body [in his teen years even]), and we have a 30+ year old Raditz with a battle-power just over 1,000. I firmly believe that the Saiyans put such high trust in potential and battle-powers at birth due to how others progressed.

If we have a Raditz and Vegeta born at the exact same time and have them go through the exact same battles against the same exact equal opponents, Vegeta is still going to be FAR stronger than Raditz by a mile due to his extreme potential. It's even been mentioned over and over that Vegeta outclasses Goku easily in techniques and learning ability because of his innate potential and battle prowess. They put so much significance into battle-powers at a young age because more often than not, that was a good indicator as to how strong a Saiyan would become at a certain age after a certain amount of time. (King Vegeta did note how Prince Vegeta's was the highest record in history, so the Saiyans had to have kept track of battle-powers and data and correlations between age and strength, no?)

We don't know how old Bardock was, yeah, but it's safe to say that he was at the very least AS strong as Raditz. We know Raditz isn't a low-class - he just has the same status in Nappa in regards to the pecking order of things, being the upper-echelon of low-class, but he was still a low-class.

We can go look at the Dragon Ball Super: Broly movie during near the beginning, and in the infirmary room of Planet Vegeta, we see a plethora of children surrounding Prince Vegeta (King Vegeta says that that specific area was for only the next upcoming generation of 'supposed strong Saiyan warriors', right? If those babies were destined to be so strong, then how come they weren't on the same team as Vegeta, but instead we have Raditz there? (They probably all pulled a Tarble, lol).

It is plausible that Bardock was stronger than Raditz's battle-power, but I would have to deduce to that conclusion due to age, battle experience, and what not.

But regardless, even if Bardock was stronger than his son at the time of Raditz's introduction in the original manga, then it couldn't have been by very much. Bardock wasn't born with as much potential as Raditz, after all. Raditz likely progressed a lot faster in strength throughout his growing stages compared to how Bardock did strength-wise.

[Yasai9001]

Monaito had a battle power of 213. I would suppose the Cerealians could range from the 400 to upper mid hundreds? What do you think about that range?

Personally I try to frame things by comparison and extrapolation to get a rough sense of things like this, even though the conclusions drawn would be very speculative - so, for instance, we can take Bardock in this arc as an example of the kind of thing I mean. When I look at Monaito attacking Bardock and him no-selling it, I automatically am tempted to compare with Piccolo attacking Raditz when they first meet, to similar effect. If the Monaito:Bardock power relationship is similar to Piccolo:Raditz (i.e., a 322:1500 ratio), Bardock comes out of the calculation with a BP of 992. For me, that works well for a couple of reasons:

• Toriyama has commented that Bardock isn't quite good enough to make his way out of Low Class status; given that 1000 BP has been touted in the broader Galaxy as a noteworthy power (e.g., Freeza is only interested in BPs of 1000 or over in Broly), this level seems to fit a Low Class Saiyan who's pushing to get higher but isn't quite there yet.
• Bardock's fight against Gas references Oozaru a couple of times. First, when Gas removes Bardock's tail, he says the fight is over now he doesn't have access to Oozaru, which implies that's the kind of boost he'd need to beat Gas. Then, when Bardock finally gains the upper hand against Gas, Gas protests that Saiyans have no 'Awakenings' other than Oozaru, which implies that's the sort of boost Bardock's getting. That would land him at 9920 BP (well, 9922 if you want to play with decimals), which would pretty much perfectly align with his stated BP in Solitary Final Battle ("By now, his Battle Power should be pretty close to 10,000"). While the Special has admittedly been substantially overwritten by later content, Toyotarou is nevertheless a massive fan of both Bardock and the Special, and that leads me to believe that he'd want to write things so they line up in some way.

So, when I see Flayk as a character with enough power to blow up the Moon to deal with Oozaru, I've got a couple of automatic Moon-busting comparators in either the Muten Roshi and his Max Power Kamehameha, or Piccolo likewise doing so with a blast. I'd be inclined to opt to highball Flayk as likely to be one of the more powerful Cerealians (he's unofficially Granolah's dad, after all), so I'd lean towards comparison with Piccolo, which would make me assume he's somewhere in the range of 300-400ish BP.

Your connection with Bardock's battle-power being around the 900 area is cool as well. I would suggest to put him a bit weaker than that though and have his Zenkai boost be the one to bring him to 992 (near King Vegeta's level). Toriyama used a panel that was obviously from The Bardock Father of Goku special and yeah, he retconned his armor, sure, but he still defied Freeza and got into some kind of skirmish before dying alongside Planet Vegeta. Bardock using his innate Oozaru power like Broly could, but with better control, and having his battle-power around there at the time of his death would suit better with what you initially put him at.

I say that because Bardock had to have taken enough damage to get some kind of power boost after his fight with Gas, no? Then Elec comes in later with a storm-trooping cheap shot that knocks Bardock off and has him just laying there.
Given that he gets whomped by Taro in one hit, that range seems probably about right if Taro is somewhere near Bardock's level (which is plausible enough - in DB Minus, he's not deferential in his mode of address to Bardock like Leek is, so he's probably more like a peer, but Bardock is nevertheless the Team Leader in this arc, so is probably a bit stronger still). If Flayk's among the stronger Cerealians, you can probably push the weaker members of the species back down towards the 150ish BP range, with most falling somewhere between these two extremes - still "strong" in Human terms, and capable of surprising techniques to give a boost, but basically not on the level of the Saiyans.

As I say, all the foregoing is absolutely riddled with speculation, so take or leave it as you please; it's just how I like to frame it for myself.

These are all fair conclusions, in my opinion. Flayk could have taken down a few Saiyans himself if he had the right energy output and target. The Saiyans using their Oozarus and just ravaging everything insight with them not initially knowing it was the moon definitely messed over. Just a hundred point difference in battle-power is very significant, just as how a thousand or two thousand point difference in battle-power (Saiyan and Namek Arc), shows us. Flayk being around the range you put him makes sense to me.

The Cerealians also lived a longer life span than others and Flayk still looked very fit for his age, not showing signs of age in later years like the Namekians tend to do (Kami, King Piccolo, Monaito, Neba, etc). If just somewhat well over one hundred years, who's to say that Flayk wouldn't have been able to take on a full adult Saiyan low-class himself? Perhaps even killing a few off. He gave off the champion of Cereal vibe - the prodigal one, if you will.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Not that I wish to exacerbate a digression from strict adherence to the main topic, but I really do think the foregoing needs addressing.

The older guidebook information telling us that he avoided tough fights and ended up relatively weak even by low-class standards, which jives with how Vegeta and Nappa regard him in the original story, isn't contradicted and should still stand. [...] The notion of Raditz ever being stronger than Bardock is simply a leftover side effect of the misguided notion that Raditz was mid-class. If not for that misconception stemming from trying to jam those two Q&As together in incompatible ways, I really doubt anyone would be trying to convince themselves that Raditz was anything special now.

Respectfully, everything in the excerpts quoted here is basically inaccurate.

The evaluation of Raditz's status does not come from "trying to jam two Q&As together"; the 2014 Q&A is wholly immaterial to this question and may be ignored entirely as it doesn't even mention him. The only reason one might choose to use it alongside the 2018 Q&A is to try to uphold the relevance of the 2014 Q&A as a datum in and of itself by reconciling it with later information instead of simply discarding it. In other words, it's not a "Raditz" thing.

Raditz's status comes from the plain reading of the 2018 Q&A on its own, which declares him to be an "Upper-Level Warrior". And it's not ambiguous as to what that means, since this Q&A makes clear that this status is the whole reason why he is in Nappa's group in the first place. He's not a lower-level warrior of any kind, he's an upper-level warrior, and consequently he's grouped with other upper-level warriors as a combatant. It's that straightforward. The only way one could come up with any other conclusion than that is, ironically, by "trying to jam" other sources together with it (the Daizenshuu, for instance) to try to get it to say something else.

Consequently, claiming that older guidebook info that he's weak even for a lower-level warrior "isn't contradicted and should still stand" is also manifestly inaccurate - it's been as flatly and directly contradicted as it is possible to do, as he isn't any kind of lower-level warrior, let alone a weak one. Raditz's upper-level warrior status is upheld by clear reference to the 2018 Q&A, and incidentally, this conclusion is also reinforced by his dialogue from Broly (he disparages Kakarot simply for being a lower-level warrior, which he could hardly do if he also were one). It's clear that this is his current status. However...

Raditz being deemed strong enough as a baby to get fast-tracked into a combat role as a kid doesn't say anything about his eventual strength or rank as an adult.

This excerpt, by contrast, is basically accurate. Just because Raditz is an upper-level warrior (a status determined principally during childhood), that doesn't necessarily mean anything as to whether he's really "strong" or not as an adult, in and of itself, just like Bardock being a lower-level warrior doesn't necessarily determine him to be "weak" generally, or weaker than Raditz specifically - we simply have no certain current data on how strong Bardock ordinarily is either way. We just know he's a lower-level warrior.

Moreover, there is current story data that establishes that Raditz isn't particularly weak in the broader context. In Broly, 1000 BP or more is good enough to get Freeza interested in having you for his army as a combatant. 2000 BP is good enough to have you personally selected to overwatch King Vegeta and have Freeza call your strength "quite outstanding" (中々優秀, nakanaka yuushuu). So this data indicates 1500 BP isn't the level of a weakling scrub, in the wider context of what overall Saiyan strength looks like; it's actually plenty strong - Raditz is only "weak" from the personal perspective of Vegeta and Nappa, who are among two of the most nailed-on outrageously powerful 'Elite' Saiyans around. Acting like their attitude is a drily factual accounting of whether Raditz is a "weak" Saiyan or not is tendentious reading. And if that doesn't satisfy, we can also look at a direct manga quote from Raditz himself:

オレはちがうなオレは一流の戦士だ……！ "Ore wa chigau na; Ore wa ichiryuu no senshi da......!" - I'm different; I'm a first-class/first-rank/first-rate warrior......! (DB #202) - even if you regard this quote as more a question of temperament and manner in contradistinction to Goku (i.e., 'I'm a proper warrior'), Raditz could in any case hardly make such a claim to qualitative superiority as a warrior if he were in fact a retiring, individually weak specimen from the objectively weaker ranks of his society; that just isn't plausible.

But, we could speculate that Raditz nevertheless hasn't made the most of himself in his career as a combatant (quite possible; if you're partnered with guys who are so strong they make every fight into an instant murder-picnic, you're not likely to have so much opportunity to push yourself and get as strong as possible), whereas Bardock is always in the thick of things and could conceivably have a BP much higher than the average lower-level fighter (and even potentially higher than some upper-level fighters, albeit with Bardock having to go under the radar to make that idea work - nothing "wrong" with it, though). But it's not clear that this conclusion necessarily has any more foundation than taking their status at face value and claiming that even though Bardock is an impressive example of a lower-level warrior who has come very far, he still probably hasn't reached Raditz's level in power (ordinarily, that is - all will no doubt agree that Bardock's boost against Gas is far beyond Raditz's level).

My problem isn't whether Raditz or Bardock is favoured as stronger, here - either conclusion is equally valid given the data we currently have; I simply choose the conclusion I have, based on a combination of suggestive but non-conclusive story/interview data and other "meta" considerations. Other interpretations are no doubt available, and I'm fine with that. If you think Bardock is stronger despite being lower-class, that's basically unproblematic (though I would naturally be interested in seeing what supporting data could be adduced for the position). My problem is with the unfounded attitude that only favouring Bardock is reasonable by default, and taking the opposite position is somehow an obvious, risible error that no clear-sighted and sensible observer could possibly make and so doesn't warrant engagement on its own terms. Respectfully, that sort of thing won't do at all.

[Kaboom]

I could easily pick out individual things to quote and point out "no, it doesn't actually say that," but I'm not keen to drag the conversation off-topic any more. You're all free to add whatever extra meaning into those old Q&As you want for your own personal interpretations, but I'm with GreatSaiyaman123 on this one.

[TobyS]

I could easily pick out individual things to quote and point out "no, it doesn't actually say that," but I'm not keen to drag the conversation off-topic any more. You're all free to add whatever extra meaning into those old Q&As you want for your own personal interpretations, but I'm with GreatSaiyaman123 on this one.

I could totally disprove you I just don't want to.
If you didn't care you wouldn't reply in the first place, or just say you don't wanna discuss it further. But this reads like cope.

----

On to the topic, Raditz versus Bardock.
Saiyans didn't train afaik and they didn't save each other from death enough to benefit from near death powerups, (bardocks noted as weid for saving endangered comrades) and only recently in their history did they have healing pods.

So I don't think Raditz was put in for his "potential" Raditz was chosen because he was strong already, or simply by random chance/random allocation or a bit of both.

1000 is strong by universal standards, Freezas non saiyan elite troops were between 1000 and 3000, laughing at 1000 and getting owned by 3000. Raditz is 1000 and something. He's only weak compared to super elites like Vegeta.

I think it either goes.

Adult Raditz > Bardock power up > Raditz Kid > Bardock.
Or
Adult Raditz > Bardock Power up > Bardock > Raditz kid.

[Yasai9001]

To be honest, I didn't expect all this stuff with Raditz. I have seen Kaboom debate from hell and back revolving this Saiyan hierarchy topic and Nappa's 8,000 battle-power discussion, lol. I respect dude for sticking to his convictions, but I'll say only this in regards to Raditz (again):

King Vegeta said that the babies surrounding Prince Vegeta were supposed to be gifted warriors in the DBS: Broly Movie. None of those children were put on the same team as Nappa and those two unnamed Saiyans, so Raditz had to have been the strongest damn kid of his time besides Prince Vegeta himself.

That, in itself, tells a HELL of a lot about Raditz's strength.

[Kaboom]

And it's not ambiguous as to what that means, since this Q&A makes clear that this status is the whole reason why he is in Nappa's group in the first place.

None of those children were put on the same team as Nappa and those two unnamed Saiyans, so Raditz had to have been the strongest damn kid of his time besides Prince Vegeta himself.

Okay one more post after all I guess, because when I get annoyed about folks "adding extra meaning to things," this is what I'm talking about.

All the 2018 Q&A says about Raditz, as bare-bones and impartially as I can summarize it, is this: "Some Saiyan babies are born strong enough to be considered 'upper-level' and raised as child combatants. Raditz was one such baby, and as a child he was placed on the same team as Nappa (and eventually Vegeta)."

It does not say, "li'l Raditz was so strong, even by upper-level standards, that he was granted the exclusive privilege of being on the same combat team as the illustrious mid-class Nappa."

So where exactly are y'all getting that impression? What about this matter-of-fact tidbit about Raditz' combat placement even implies that he was somehow extra special? Why should it be anything more than just a straightforward way of telling us how he ended up surviving the Saiyan genocide and bumming around with Nappa and Vegeta for the next 20 years?

I'm not trying to push some sort of agenda here, I'm just trying to stick to the facts as they're actually presented. And the only message I can glean from those facts is "Raditz was born strong enough to be on a combat team as a kid (which led to him not getting nuked by Freeza with everyone else)."

Y'all can see where I'm coming from with this, right?

If those babies were destined to be so strong, then how come they weren't on the same team as Vegeta, but instead we have Raditz there?[/b]

Because they're still babies, or toddlers at most? Whereas Raditz in that movie was like, what, 7 or 8? From the looks of things, in nuDB just about every Saiyan kid spends their first few years in one of those incubation pods, no matter what role they're headed for. I would assume all of those high-tier babies were going to end up on combat teams in a few more years, just like Raditz. Maybe even on the same team. Other "upper-level" kids around Raditz's age were probably already on other teams.

That doesn't say anything about Raditz's strength to me. Just about... y'know, his age.

[Magnificent Ponta]

All the 2018 Q&A says about Raditz, as bare-bones and impartially as I can summarize it, is this: "Some Saiyan babies are born strong enough to be considered 'upper-level' and raised as child combatants. Raditz was one such baby, and as a child he was placed on the same team as Nappa (and eventually Vegeta)."

It does not say, "li'l Raditz was so strong, even by upper-level standards, that he was granted the exclusive privilege of being on the same combat team as the illustrious mid-class Nappa."

But I am saying the former, and not the latter - not least because the 2018 Q&A doesn't even mention the term "mid-level warrior"; only "upper-level warrior" and "lower-level warrior", and Raditz is explicitly defined as the former. It's that simple (who is mashing the Q&As together, again? "Mid-level warrior" is a term from the 2014 Q&A).

You said that the older Guidebook info that says Raditz was relatively weak even by lower-level warrior standards "hasn't been contradicted", and I am saying the mere fact that the 2018 Q&A says Raditz is an upper-level warrior absolutely contradicts that older guidebook data because it is therefore by definition saying he is not a lower-level warrior at all. So one cannot appeal to that older data to say "Raditz is a relatively weak example of a lower-level warrior, Bardock is a strong example of a lower-level warrior, so Bardock is clearly stronger than Raditz", which is the apparent thrust of your argument.

In fact, the Q&A literally says, "Since Raditz was an upper-level warrior, he was assigned to Nappa's group as a regular combatant and has been fighting since he was a child". So he's in Nappa's group because he's an upper-level warrior; it's the only reason he's there, and he wouldn't be there if he were a lower-level warrior. That's literally what I'm saying even in the excerpt of my post you quoted.

When I say that, I make no comment on how strong he is in the context of upper level warrior standards - are you assuming that I'm regarding Nappa's squad as uniquely remarkable among upper-level squad assignments? Because I'm not, and assuming that I am is a pretty fundamental misreading of what I wrote. I'm simply talking about the mere fact that Raditz is on a squad as a child combatant - he's only there because he's upper-level. That the squad is Nappa's is just an incidental matter of fact.

I don't mean to be rude, but if you think I said this with respect to the 2018 Q&A in this topic, you have either muddled yourself with presumption about what I mean so seriously that you haven't properly read what I actually wrote and have gone off on a tangent, or you are in fact wilfully misinterpreting what I wrote to suit an agenda (your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding - I'll assume a good faith muddle, though).

The question of how strong Raditz is relative to other Saiyans as an adult is a technically different discussion point to what his class status is, I say explicitly that this is the case (in agreement with you), and I treat it quite clearly as such in my posts, addressing it separately and appealing to completely different factual data in order to uphold the idea that, in the context of Saiyans generally (as opposed to "relative to Vegeta and Nappa specifically"), it isn't at all clear that Raditz is weak, and so it is perfectly plausible to maintain that he may be stronger than Bardock (about whose baseline strength little is currently known, beyond the uncertain datum of his class status).

Please do let me know if any of this remains unclear to you, and I will do my best to re-clarify. But actually reading what I've already written in an open-minded fashion might be the most helpful course in the first instance.

***

The Cerealians also lived a longer life span than others and Flayk still looked very fit for his age, not showing signs of age in later years like the Namekians tend to do (Kami, King Piccolo, Monaito, Neba, etc). If just somewhat well over one hundred years, who's to say that Flayk wouldn't have been able to take on a full adult Saiyan low-class himself? Perhaps even killing a few off. He gave off the champion of Cereal vibe - the prodigal one, if you will.

Yasai9001, apologies for the continuing digression in your topic. I might note, on the actual general subject matter of the OP, the Cerealians might come out ahead of the Saiyans in terms of the ceiling of their ordinary limits/potential. Vegeta thinks of a Goku with a BP of 90,000 as having "utterly surpassed Saiyan limits", whereas Granolah is somewhere beyond the Ginyu Force and approaching Form 1 Freeza simply from doing (apparently) ordinary training and bounty hunting jobs for 40 years.

That might be an off-base comparison, however, as Granolah is already something of a prodigy, so it may not be fair to compare his natural limits to these theoretical limits of Saiyan strength in a way that implies his level is transferrable to other Cerealians. But on the other hand, Toriyama's Saiyan Q&A implies that the Saiyans mostly limit themselves due to their harsh lifestyles and temperaments (which make fewer S-Cells), so that could be a relevant consideration in which other species like the Cerealians might come out ahead on that score, at least. I thought I might mention it, all the same.

[Kaboom]

You said that the older Guidebook info that says Raditz was relatively weak even by lower-level warrior standards "hasn't been contradicted", and I am saying the mere fact that the 2018 Q&A says Raditz is an upper-level warrior absolutely contradicts that older guidebook data because it is therefore by definition saying he is not a lower-level warrior at all.

...

"Lowest-level" (1996 Daizenshuu entry) only means, by very obvious classic-DB context, the same thing as "low-class (2014)." It's only stating that Raditz is part of the same broad caste as his brother and father and 99% of the rest of the Saiyan population, rather than being an elite like Nappa or royal super-elite like Vegeta.

That same "lowest-level warrior" term was also used for Bardock, who's an exceptional combatant with an almost-10k power level, so it sure doesn't seem like it's an inherent comment on strength for either of them. It has functionally nothing to do with the "low-level (2018)" term, which is used specifically to refer to Saiyans that are born weak, remain weak, and don't get to be combatants at all.

Raditz being an "upper-level (2018)" Saiyan, i.e. "a baby strong enough to be raised for combat," does not prevent him from being "low-class (2014)" or "lowest-level (1996)." It does not mean he somehow had the exclusive privilege of specifically being teamed up with Nappa, unless you want to try claiming that he was the only "upper-level (2018)" kid around. It does not mean he grew up to be anything special. It does not mean he was ever stronger than Bardock. It does not mean he didn't end up being a disappointingly weak adult (unlike Bardock) like the Daizenshuu bio says. It does not mean any of the extra things that you, intentionally or otherwise, are acting like it does.

It means "he was strong enough as a baby to get raised for combat as a kid instead of being stuck in a non-combat job or sent off-world to probably die." Nothing more.

Which is why I originally felt the need to interject in this thread. Because "nuBardock couldn't break out of low-class so he was probably under 1,000 and weaker than Raditz" is at best profoundly unsupported, and at worst just plain nonsense (or as GreatSaiyaman123 expertly put it, "Lol"). And as such it was a poor foundation for a "how do Cerealians compare to Saiyans" discussion, and at risk of muddling any actually good info or insight that Yasai9001 may have otherwise gained.

...I feel like I'm stuck on a broken merry-go-round that the carnival employee can't get to stop.

[Grimlock]

The problem may not even be Bardock being weaker than Raditz, the problem is that putting him at that level means he is around, or maybe weaker, than a Saibaimen, which just isn't right. There's simply no way Bardock would be Yamcha'd by such a random creature.

If only Raditz was stronger, maybe that idea wouldn't be so rapidly dismissed. But as it stands, I can't see Bardock being weaker than Raditz and thus on par with or weaker than a Saibaimen. None of this would be happening with the red-bandanna one and his glorious ten thousand power level. Such an avoidable issue.