Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

[AliTheZombie13]

"Goku outright denying his race is out of character and character regression!"

Whether that's true or not, fuck it. If my race straight-up told to my face that they sent me to an alien planet and left me to either die or kill everyone else for a quick buck because they consider me low-tier trash, then I wouldn't have a fond opinion of them either. Especially not after learning they committed multiple genocides and came back trying to kill my new friends and family.

What, is the disowned homosexual son of a homophobic family supposed to proudly declare his blood relations when his parents are suddenly finding themselves dying in war? The "Saiyan Pride" bullshit never made any sense to begin with.

[Yuji]

"Goku outright denying his race is out of character and character regression!"

Whether that's true or not, fuck it. If my race straight-up told to my face that they sent me to an alien planet and left me to either die or kill everyone else for a quick buck because they consider me low-tier trash, then I wouldn't have a fond opinion of them either. Especially not after learning they committed multiple genocides and came back trying to kill my new friends and family.

Goku was put through the exact same scenario of the Baby accusation in the original series and had a completely different response:

Spoiler:

No deflections. He can separate the sins of the Saiyans from himself while still retaining pride in his race as shown multiple times in the arc. Goku doesn't have a black and white view of the Saiyans post-Saiyan arc.

[AliTheZombie13]

He doesn't have a black & white view of the Saiyans in GT either, neither does Pan. In fact, Pan does the exact same thing against Baby.
"If you want to take revenge against the Saiyans or whatever, feel free to. But my father, my mother, everyone else, they have nothing to do with any of this!"

The question here is: What exactly is Goku proud of being a member of the glorious mostly extinct Saiyan race? Is he proud of having won the superpower lottery or something?I thought he was all about hard work and dedication, but he seems to have no issue against free power-ups given to him by his special biology. Is he proud of being naturally bloodthirsty for battle? I hope you have a good answer for any of that, because the original story provides exactly none, except "Goku is proud."

I find it infinitely more interesting that Goku considers himself strong and determined because he trained hard for it, not because he was born that way. Just as I find it infinitely more interesting that he considers the friends and family who found and care for him his true blood. But again, homosexual child might have something to do with that. I could care less about "MUH SAIYAN PRIDE" Goku.

[Yuji]

He doesn't have a black & white view of the Saiyans in GT either, neither does Pan. In fact, Pan does the exact same thing against Baby.
"If you want to take revenge against the Saiyans or whatever, feel free to. But my father, my mother, everyone else, they have nothing to do with any of this!"

The question here is: What exactly is Goku proud of being a member of the glorious mostly extinct Saiyan race? Is he proud of having won the superpower lottery or something?I thought he was all about hard work and dedication, but he seems to have no issue against free power-ups given to him by his special biology. Is he proud of being naturally bloodthirsty for battle? I hope you have a good answer for any of that, because the original story provides exactly none, except "Goku is proud."

I find it infinitely more interesting that Goku considers himself strong and determined because he trained hard for it, not because he was born that way.

Not all Saiyans were genocidal killers. You're saying it's not being black and white while reducing Saiyan society to its king and soldiers.

He's proud of his strength, his willpower and determination. Those are traits that are influenced in part by his biology, which he recognizes. It's a mixture of both his upbringing and biology. You're basically asking what someone born in Africa or Asia but moved to the US as a baby has to be prideful about their heritage.

[AliTheZombie13]

Not all Saiyans were genocidal killers. You're saying it's not being black and white while reducing Saiyan society to its king and soldiers.

In the original context of the story, yes, they absolutely were.
The only exception was Goku, and the original excuse for that was brain damage.
GT was made based off that context.

He's proud of his strength, his willpower and determination. Those are traits that are influenced in part by his biology, which he recognizes. It's a mixture of both his upbringing and biology. You're basically asking why someone born in Africa or Asia but moved to the US as a baby has to be prideful about their heritage.

I'm homosexual and Latino, so I kind of understand the connotations. It's just that Dragon Ball's are completely hollow and empty, affect the storytelling in absolutely no discernible way, and are shoehorned into the story because Toriyama thought it'd be cool to have Goku yell "I'M A PROUD SAIYAN WARRIOR!!!!"

A black person, for example, being proud of their race having been humiliated, ostracized and survived entire generations is one thing, a Saiyan being proud of his race who has been known for doing nothing except genocide is not the flex you think it is.

[JulieYBM]

I don't really like comparing Saiyans to real-world races. Saiyans are fictional and meant to be 'uniformly'—at least for the purpose of the story being told during the Saiyan and Namek arcs—be pure evil monsters. That's just not realistic or reflective of our world—we would call that a racist stereotype.

A small micro-level comparison of Gokuu being a queer child shipped off might work...but Bardock's act of sending Gokuu off to actually have his own life and future free of the consequences of the King Vegeta III's rule was itself an act of breaking from tradition.

[LightBing]

Great episode. This is legit a JRPG adventure, at this point I'll be shocked if they don't release a game of this.

This was another episode for World-bulding, capped by great action.

The pills will certainly come up later, although it's more likely to be a gag. Like they've expired and the fusion doesn't work than to be the solution to any confrontation.

The dynamics of the oppressions dealt by the Gomah are also important. We now know how he'll give Neva an extend lifespan like promised, he stoles it from the common folk.
If Neva knows about it, it will define his character morality(or he could just not care about anything and legitimately be half senile).

Finally, y'all saw Glorio's smirk after manipulating Goku into getting the Dragon Balls?
That was heavily leaning into the evil suspicion. Since this is Dragon Ball, it might be a red herring or straight up foreshadowing.

[AliTheZombie13]

I'm still interested in knowing what exactly is the end goal for Arinsu and the other villains.
So far, the show has been happy enough to leave us in the dark. The pay off better be good.

[JulieYBM]

Dr. Arinsu having not appeared since that first episode is definitely interesting. I'm curious if the medicine stuff from Episode #4 will play a part in her research later on, too.

I've been thinking about it a lot lately, but I do kind of wish the structure of the series was modified more. I think that Episode #3's Warp-sama stuff should have been removed so that Episodes #3-4 could be combined together as a single episode.

[tonysoprano300]

Personally I'll always see Goku as an Earthling first and foremost, I genuinely don't think he gives a fuck about the saiyan race, At least in the context of the original series. I wasn't even really a fan of them making it so that his saiyan biology is responsible for his enthusiasm for training and fighting, Goku is a martial artist who was brought up under the turtle school and the teachings of Grampa Gohan. His experiences are what make him who he is. If we wanna call anything a regression, its that.

To bring it back around to Daima, I think what they've done with Goku is mostly great. He's laid back and goofy, still gets excited when faced with new challenges and adventures but is still serious and pragmatic enough to have his priorities in order. Him refusing to stand by and let people get their life forced drained away because he was morally outraged by bad people doing bad things is an example of that. I can acknowledge that maybe some of the gags didnt land that well, but imo these are relatively minor annoyances.

People need to understand that the Demon realm is completely uncharted territory for Goku, its a realm that's completely separate from both the living and the afterlife. Of course Goku is going to be excited and fascinated when given the opportunity to explore it. Hell I as an audience member having never seen DB explore something different like this since they decided to go to space, am equally excited. That's not childish...that's just Goku.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

If Neva knows about it, it will define his character morality(or he could just not care about anything and legitimately be half senile).

Considering how he didnt mind Gomah suggestion of potentially killing baby Dende, the guy is probably not morally upstanding.

[MisteryOne]

I loved this episode. Some of the fandom is probably going to hate it, but this feels like genuinely good pacing rather than the moments of the Super anime that felt so obviously like time filler, specially in the ToP. Daima's World is living and breathing, it feels like such a breath of fresh air in everything, not just the animation (through that also does wonders with the comedy, I must admit). It's also exciting to see the core group finally completed (sure, going by the opening and ending we still have the other one with Vegeta, Piccolo and Bulma, but honestly that seems like a too big cast and...I don't think they would add anything? I love them as characters, but we already have a serious guy who is a much better contrast to Goku...and them not having access to tecnology is actually fun) I wish this kept up with a RPG style of overthrowing the new bad king and all, instead of it eventually devolving into SS transformations and shonen fighting.

That being said, I do have one big criticism, and that is those insects. They really do feel like too on the nose and artificial, and took me put of the episode. Them healing is okay, but fusing? Really? I guess I should be happy we are potentially getting a Vegetto-like without any more continuity issues, but it feels like such an obligatory task to fill, if that makes sense. We can go without fusing in this story. And Kaioshin still feels like the mandate straight man rather than really adding anything so far- no fighting, no real contrast to Goku when Glorio is there, it doesn't even feel like most of his exposition is so far needed, I guess it would be even worse if Glorio explained it all, but still. There still has not being any confrontaion between those two either, and you can raise suspension about a character's actions without needing to pair him up.

(There is also the potential Sparking Zero spoiler that has ruined my view on some of the new characters- I'm still so baffled by that. But that isn't Daima's fault)

Seeing people argue Goku is acting childish is so nonsense to me. This is the same guy who goes all waku waku about fighting old enemies again. This is a whole new realm for him to explore and have wonder with. If there is a single adult who should act like this, with child-like wonder, is someone as easy going as he is. Super anime Goku really has tainted so much the perception people have of the character. This really seems like adults who have lost their own happiness by the system projecting into the literal standard anime protagonist (no comments on comparing it to Luffy when the one joke about names is literally something Goku himself started...). I have chronic depression nowadays and a loss of wonder for most things and I would still be as excited as he is about visiting the Demon Realm.

Also, it's a quite minor thing, but I love the short titles so much more. The ones in Dragonball anime have always gotten old so, so fast.

I'm still interested in knowing what exactly is the end goal for Arinsu and the other villains.
So far, the show has been happy enough to leave us in the dark. The pay off better be good.

Do any of them really need any unseen end goal besides Arinsu herself? The others quite explicitly only used the Dragon Balls because of her own teasing about the cast being a threat. They could just want to rule the realm without opposition, and Neva could be genuinely senile. I know the fandom is suspicious as always, but this is still Dragonball. I don't think we have been "left in the dark" except with, again, Arinsu, and even then they were so obvious about it even the other two wondered about her intentions out loud. Even Glorio is more suspicious than Gomah and Degesu if you ask me, and it isn't subtle either.

[Yuji]

I don't think Super has tainted anyone's view of anything. Both shows share the same issue regarding Goku's characterization: over-exaggerating his childlike traits to absurd degrees for the sake of levity and comedy. I guess that a literal child jumping around like a bunny rabbit is more palpable and believable to audiences than a 40-year old man doing the same, but they're both mentally the same age. The Goku of the original series would not, of course, do this as an adult, because he has some degree of decorum and maturity that his child self did not have. It's not about stripping away Goku's personality to someone who "lost his happiness", it's about showcasing his different emotions with the subtlety of an adult and not as a caricature.

[AliTheZombie13]

As someone who's been very, very, extremely bothered by Super's portrayal of Goku, he's fine here.
I don't know about you, but I'm 30 years old, and if I want to jump in happiness, I'll damn jump in happiness. I'd rather die happy before becoming an empty shell of my former self because society expects me to act different. Old adults want to do childish things, too. Whatever brings happiness to this miserable thing we call life. As long as Goku is not going out of his way to hurt others like he did in Super, he's fine.

[Jiren The Alpha]

As someone who's been very, very, extremely bothered by Super's portrayal of Goku, he's fine here.
I don't know about you, but I'm 30 years old, and if I want to jump in happiness, I'll damn jump in happiness. I'd rather die happy before becoming an empty shell of my former self because society expects me to act different. Old adults want to do childish things, too. Whatever brings happiness to this miserable thing we call life. As long as Goku is not going out of his way to hurt others like he did in Super, he's fine.

You're right, he should only be allowed too do that in original Dragon Ball (letting Vegeta go so he could kill som namekians, not stopping Gero so he could kill some civilians or giving Cell a senzu bean so he could hurt and maybe kill his on son). Anyway, great episode, a lot of lore and plot devolopment for a franchise that supposedly "has no plot" lol.

[AliTheZombie13]

You're right, he should only be allowed too do that in original Dragon Ball (letting Vegeta go so he could kill som namekians, not stopping Gero so he could kill some civilians or giving Cell a senzu bean so he could hurt and maybe kill his on son). Anyway, great episode, a lot of lore and plot devolopment for a franchise that supposedly "has no plot" lol.

You're under the impression I'm a fan of the Cell arc... I hated that too, FYI.

[tonysoprano300]

If I'm not mistaken, Goku did occasional act silly as an adult. Wasn’t he prancing around like a monkey on King Kai’s world? Was he not doing the Ginyu Force pose on Namek?

[Yuji]

If I'm not mistaken, Goku did occasional act silly as an adult. Wasn’t he prancing around like a monkey on King Kai’s world? Was he not doing the Ginyu Force pose on Namek?

He genuinely thought it was a training exercise and was later embarassed by it, and he was mocking them. That's a bit different than jumping after a rabbit outside a training or combat situation for his own amusement.

[LightBing]

I don't think Super has tainted anyone's view of anything. Both shows share the same issue regarding Goku's characterization: over-exaggerating his childlike traits to absurd degrees for the sake of levity and comedy. I guess that a literal child jumping around like a bunny rabbit is more palpable and believable to audiences than a 40-year old man doing the same, but they're both mentally the same age. The Goku of the original series would not, of course, do this as an adult, because he has some degree of decorum and maturity that his child self did not have. It's not about stripping away Goku's personality to someone who "lost his happiness", it's about showcasing his different emotions with the subtlety of an adult and not as a caricature.

I agree that Goku's has been acting overly childish, very similar to early arc. The writers probably re-read the manga to characterize Goku here.
Still it's isn't that bad. It's just a little bit over the top. Goku is still overall a very easy-going fellow.

It doesn't compare to Super for me, now that's a caricature of Goku from someone who just heard second hand memes about him.

[JulieYBM]

damn girl, if my body was suddenly what it was when i was six i'd jump around like a rabbit, too. This gettin' old shit sucks!

But for real, being an adult isn't "Don't ever have fun and act silly," being an adult is, "Damn, those pigs are literally trying to kill people as an abuse of their authority as granted to them by an unelected monarch, I'm going to use their great power to stop them!"