Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Daima" TV series premiering October 2024, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:19 pm

Yuji wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 3:22 pm I don't think Super has tainted anyone's view of anything. Both shows share the same issue regarding Goku's characterization: over-exaggerating his childlike traits to absurd degrees for the sake of levity and comedy. I guess that a literal child jumping around like a bunny rabbit is more palpable and believable to audiences than a 40-year old man doing the same, but they're both mentally the same age. The Goku of the original series would not, of course, do this as an adult, because he has some degree of decorum and maturity that his child self did not have. It's not about stripping away Goku's personality to someone who "lost his happiness", it's about showcasing his different emotions with the subtlety of an adult and not as a caricature.
The thing is, I still completely believe 40 year old Goku would do this. Again, this is literal new dimension to explore full of new things. New flora, new fauna, new rules applied to the concepts they use diary. Being and adult doesn't mean you can't have child-like wonder or even act like one, I am one and I'm not ashamed to say I can jump in excitement if something is good enough, like a gift my ex partner did to me. Or act silly when talking to my pet. This seems to come from the idea that, again, being mature of X years old means you naturaly grow out of child manneris, which is not teue as it depends of each invidiual's experiences. It reads as hollow as Inside Out 2's idea that "it's normal to feel less happiness when you grow up". No, it isn't. If you are forced to mature is because the currenr system requires you to do so in order to have a stable job that pays bills, and even then it doesn't apply to all people. Goku has literally no reason to have lost his attitude when he didn't have any of those struggles or reasons to mature. Thinking this is wrong when we are talking about someone who gets physically excited and pumped up about fighting is quite nonsense to me. And it seems to come from a fundamental issue that we don't seem to agree, because I don't think being an adult makes you more mature just by aging physically.

Your post honestly just gives me more evidence than people are projecting themselves into someone with the peraonality of Goku, who has always been like this but the series has only been able to show new things when it comes to fighting. In fact, I would argue that gives even more of a reason for his excitement- the guy has literally being dead, and no one in the afterlife could compare to him. He has been 7 years there and saw what it has to offer. He has seen everything Earth can offer as well. Now he is on a proper adventure actually discovering new thinga again rather than just pure fighting, and even using a weapon he finds nostalgic. You are, again, projecting your own "subtle behaviour as an adult" to a character that is literally the baseline of shonen protagonists. You could argue this for literally any of Dragonball's characters *but* Goku. Hell, one of the recurring jokes about the character is that he lacks the social clues and understanding meccesary to adress people by honorifics or propertly introduce himself in Japanese language. If that doesn't tell you the guy lacks the attitude that you apparently expect socially from an adult, I don't know what it will. Do you think Roshi acts like an old man too, or does he gets a pass because of the joke being that he is a pervert? Because Goku's easy-going nature is a pretty fundamental trait of his if you ask me, and why Gohan didn't act the same despite being similar ages.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:50 pm

MisteryOne wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:19 pm The thing is, I still completely believe 40 year old Goku would do this. Again, this is literal new dimension to explore full of new things. New flora, new fauna, new rules applied to the concepts they use diary. Being and adult doesn't mean you can't have child-like wonder or even act like one, I am one and I'm not ashamed to say I can jump in excitement if something is good enough, like a gift my ex partner did to me. This seems to come from the idea that, again, being mature of X years old means you naturaly grow out of child manneris, which is not teue as it depends of each invidiual's experiences. It reads as hollow as Inside Out 2's idea that "it's normal to feel less happiness when you grow up". No, it isn't. If you are forced to mature is because the currenr system requires you to do so in order to have a stable job that pays bills, and even then it doesn't apply to all people. Goku has literally no reason to have lost his attitude when he didn't have any of those struggles or reasons to mature. Thinking this is wrong when we are talking about someone who gets physically excited and pumped up about fighting is quite nonsense to me. And it seems to come from a fundamental issue that we don't seem to agree, because I don't think being an adult makes you more mature just by aging physically.

Your post honestly just gives me more evidence than people are projecting themselves into someone with the peraonality of Goku, who has always been like this but the series has only been able to show new things when it comes to fighting. In fact, I qould argue that gives even more of a reason for his excitement- the guy has literally being dead, and no one in the afterlife could compare to him. He has been 7 years there and saw what it has to offer. He has seen everything Earth can offer as well. You are, again, projecting your own "subtle behaviour as an adult" to a character that is literally the baseline of shonen protagonists. You could argue this for literally any of Dragonball's characters *but* Goku. Hell, one of the recurring jokes about the character is that he lacks the social clues and understanding meccesary to adress people by honorifics in Japanese language. If that doesn't tell you the guy lacks the attitude that you apparently expecr socially from an adult, I don't know what it will.
I don't believe adult Goku would do this, because I'm having trouble believing even child Goku would be this excited over an adventure. I don't remember an occasion where Goku was this thrilled about "new flora, new fauna, new rules." We've had precisely three "adventure" arcs in the series: the Pilaf arc, the Red Ribbon arc and arguably the Namek arc. In the Pilaf arc, Goku was content living out his life in the same woods he knew since he was a baby until he met Bulma and was dragged on an adventure. All the time he remained curious but never overtly and so exaggeratedly animated over what he saw. In fact, it was the opposite. He was often bored and his commentary didn't amount to something much more than "huh, that's neat/weird." No wide eyes of wonder. Skimming through the arc, the only times he was extremely excited over something were: when he got to sleep with Bulma because he hadn't slept with anyone in a long time, when he got Kintoun and when he was ready to fight someone. None of those pertain exactly to the scenarios, or the locations, the wildlife or so on.

Part of the reason the original arc works is because Goku isn't seeking it out. He's along for the ride and it's funny to see this aloof monkey boy kicking ass because some blue-haired woman tells him to.

The Red Ribbon Army arc was a more proactive choice in his end but he was single-mindedly chasing an objective and I don't think he stopped to appreciate the environment or wildlife like he has so far in Daima. On Namek, if you count that as an adventure, fighting Freeza was his only thought.

So no, I don't buy this idea Goku is this extremely adventure-driven person who gawks in wonder and jumps in joy at everything he sees. He's a mildly curious person who's also pretty content with living out his life in complacency - the one variable that gets his blood pumping and makes him excited enough to chase it out willingly is the prospect of fighting strong people, or getting strong himself. I can see adult Goku jumping for joy at the prospect of fighting someone new, because that's something he cares about and has cared about from chapter 1, I can't see adult Goku chasing bunny rabbits and awing and oohing at volcanoes, he doesn't really care, he's been through it, and that's not something that has particularly excited him enough historically to do so.

You're accusing me of projection or muddying the character when I've just been looking at the original series Toriyama drew. I think you're the one projecting other portrayals onto him, be it influences from Toei depictions or modern Shounen protagonists. Goku wouldn't care about going to the Grand Line and becoming Pirate King, but the way Daima Goku's been written so far, I could see him chasing that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Nov 02, 2024 6:47 pm

MisteryOne wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 3:11 pm Super anime Goku really has tainted so much the perception people have of the character.
Toei's filler writing in general has tainted the perception people have of this character, whether they want to admit it or not, but I agree that the Super anime is the latest instance of it. Outside of the original DB/Super manga and a select few movies, Daima is the first and probably only Dragon Ball TV show to get him consistently right, or accurate enough, for obvious reasons.

But holy hell y'all, I'd appreciate it for the sake of everyone's sanity that we moved past this topic. This shit is exhausting to read. There was only like one guy in this thread criticizing his characterization so I have no idea why it led to multiple forum pages of this.

Episode 4 is fantastic and deserves more compelling discussion than "not my Goku" argument #280,000.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:02 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 6:47 pm Toei's filler writing in general has tainted the perception people have of this character, whether they want to admit it or not, but I agree that the Super anime is the latest instance of it. Outside of the original DB/Super manga and a select few movies, Daima is the first and probably only Dragon Ball TV show to get him consistently right, or accurate enough, for obvious reasons.
Toriyama literally saw Goku forgetting about Pan in the Super manga and thought, "This is good."
And if Toei was really just following bullet points from Toriyama, then "Goku inadvertently almost causes entire existences to be wiped out by acting like a battle-hungry man-child" idea came from him.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:11 pm

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:02 pm Toriyama literally saw Goku forgetting about Pan in the Super manga and thought, "This is good."
And if Toei was really just following bullet points from Toriyama, then "Goku inadvertently almost causes entire existences to be wiped out by acting like a battle-hungry man-child" idea came from him.
This is a non-response to what I said. You're just listing random factoids without explaining why they're bad, or what makes them bad, or even arguing that they're bad.

No, Toriyama literally wrote Goku forgetting about Pan. And it's in-character. And there's a whole discussion topic for it.

Take it there instead of shitting up this thread, thanks.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:19 pm

First of, stop being so aggressive, I wasn't meaning to insult you.

Second, I'm pretty sure nobody really cares if Goku is acting "in-character", pretty much everybody here knows this is Toriyama's Goku, the most "in-character" he can possibly be given he's written by the original creator.

We're talking about how childish he's acting in Daima. The point I was trying to make is, that complaint isn't going to vanish simply because the original creator is writing him. "Toei's filler" wasn't really what made me dislike Super's portrayal of Goku, but Toriyama himself.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:35 pm

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:19 pm First of, stop being so aggressive, I wasn't meaning to insult you.
Trust me, that wasn't aggressive. I'd just rather keep this discussion grounded; you replied to me with a complete whataboutism that didn't even mention Daima, nevermind anything in this episode.
AliTheZombie13 wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:19 pm Second, I'm pretty sure nobody really cares if Goku is acting "in-character"
My brother/sister in Christ, this entire discussion has (regrettably) been about whether Goku was acting in-character, particularly whether it's in line with his perceived actions in the original series. You quoted me specifically talking to another user about that exact thing!

Don't reply to me going forward if you have nothing to say.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:42 pm

Administrative warning — be wary of your posting style. You wouldn’t want to lose the ability to discuss a brand new series only a month in.

Take a step back, please.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:43 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:35 pm Don't reply to me going forward if you have nothing to say.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:51 pm

I kind of wish that we had spent more time with the elderly shopkeepers. While I'm glad that the plot is moving along, I'd have liked to see them used as an opportunity to better flesh out Glorio's interactions with other characters.

I can't help but feel like the series was designed to be binge watched and now that it isn't being released that way the structure is just too A-to-B, rather than maybe just skipping B to get to C. It's going to be really interesting to rewatch the series from here on out, because I think a lot of these scenes might wind up being scenes that could have been condensed and perhaps just replaced with more action, if the episode count wasn't allowed to be reduced. A big issue with the Champa and Gokuu Black arcs, I felt, were that they were really only, like, eight or nine episodes worth of story, being stretched across much more. Unless Dragon Ball Daima winds up getting more dense in its later episodes, I'm beginning to think that this might be a similar case.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiya6Cit » Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:04 pm

As many have pointed out already this episode is way better paced than the others and even the music was more relevant.

I am very happy with the product. Quality animation, decent plot. Great character designs and good music. This is a show I am very interested into continue watching it. I feel happy for dragon ball and happy in general, the shows makes me feel hope.

Yes, it feels like corrected GT, for example here they explain why they don't simply fly to places. It feels like a medieval town setting mixed with star wars, mixed with martial arts. So far, the mix is well balanced, it is working well. It has the right level of action and comedy. I wish to see more Vegeta but this Goku is bearable.

They are still saving Gohan and Videl how old would they be? if trunks went from 9 to 1 and Gohan is 16 in majin buu saga (or 17 maybe by then) does that mean he will go back to his 10 year old look from the cell games? but this time, with a shorter hair ? or maybe a little longer as to resemble the one in DBS Super Heroe movie that was so well received by the fandom? Why are they even "saving" Gohan for?

Also, if Dende was made to look 5, does that mean Gohan could also go back to the Namek look? I always considered Dende and Gohan to be about the same age, but I guess it is true that Namekians age differently anyways... :think:

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 3:29 pm As someone who's been very, very, extremely bothered by Super's portrayal of Goku, he's fine here.
I don't know about you, but I'm 30 years old, and if I want to jump in happiness, I'll damn jump in happiness. I'd rather die happy before becoming an empty shell of my former self because society expects me to act different. Old adults want to do childish things, too. Whatever brings happiness to this miserable thing we call life. As long as Goku is not going out of his way to hurt others like he did in Super, he's fine.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:10 pm

If the warning was directed at me, I apologize. That's my bad for letting my personal annoyances get to me. I'll do better.
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:51 pm I can't help but feel like the series was designed to be binge watched and now that it isn't being released that way the structure is just too A-to-B, rather than maybe just skipping B to get to C.
Although I've enjoyed the pacing and think it's appropriate for what the show is trying to to be, there might actually be something to that possibility. At the very least, binging might help the viewers that aren't as satisfied with how this has progressed so far.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:16 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:10 pm If the warning was directed at me, I apologize. That's my bad for letting my personal annoyances get to me. I'll do better.
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:51 pm I can't help but feel like the series was designed to be binge watched and now that it isn't being released that way the structure is just too A-to-B, rather than maybe just skipping B to get to C.
Although I've enjoyed the pacing and think it's appropriate for what the show is trying to to be, there might actually be something to that possibility. At the very least, binging might help the viewers that aren't as satisfied with how this has progressed so far.
I think it would be really interesting if the production committee did a full-on compilation film where old cuts and new cuts were combined to create a film or two where the pacing was a lot more sharp and direct. As opposed to, say, the compilation films for Kidou Senshi Gundam (1979) they wouldn't have to worry about an episodic structure, because right now there really isn't a proper episodic structure to the series, so I feel like the flow would seem a lot more natural as a film.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:32 pm

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:19 pm First of, stop being so aggressive, I wasn't meaning to insult you.

Second, I'm pretty sure nobody really cares if Goku is acting "in-character", pretty much everybody here knows this is Toriyama's Goku, the most "in-character" he can possibly be given he's written by the original creator.

We're talking about how childish he's acting in Daima. The point I was trying to make is, that complaint isn't going to vanish simply because the original creator is writing him. "Toei's filler" wasn't really what made me dislike Super's portrayal of Goku, but Toriyama himself.
I really disagree with this take.
The creator of a character can make poor decisions about a character and bring them out of characterization. It happens all the time in writing and is typically corrected on the editing floor where the editor will ask the characters motivations for their seemingly conflicting actions or sudden personality change and the writer will need to justify or transition to that point more smoothly because the reasoning and characterization didn’t make sense.

Goku being more energetic is different than wisdom or experience he has. He’s literally been to multiple different worlds, experienced people from different timelines, and even dimensions not just once or twice but multiple times. He so not going to be so wide-eyed country bumpkin at this point in his life.

Pre-saiyan saga Goku took a far more mature turn, reverting it because you want to doesn’t make it good characterization or make sense for the characters growth, it’s just lazy poor writing for the sake of an outcome not a complete story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:42 pm

TheMikado wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:32 pm I really disagree with this take.
The creator of a character can make poor decisions about a character and bring them out of characterization. It happens all the time in writing and is typically corrected on the editing floor where the editor will ask the characters motivations for their seemingly conflicting actions or sudden personality change and the writer will need to justify or transition to that point more smoothly because the reasoning and characterization didn’t make sense.
I 100% agree with you there.
The point with my posts is that I really, really don't agree when a character is given bad characterization and the usual rebuttal is: "So what? It's 100% in-character and what Toriyama always wanted! He's no superhero!" Which is used as a convenient excuse for every single mind-numbing thing Goku does in Super and even parts of Z.

That being said, Goku in Daima feels fine, or at least I think he does.
Him jumping up and down and being excited over stuff is just... Goku being Goku.
I don't know, even if I agreed with the notion that Goku shouldn't be feeling like that because of his age, I'll gladly take this supposed regression over the "Japanese Homer Simpson" we got in modern DB.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by tonysoprano300 » Sun Nov 03, 2024 12:42 am

I guess ill concede that Goku never acted this excited in the original series, it wasn’t something that occurred to me before but now that others have brought it up I can’t say their wrong. Aside from Goku dancing at the 21st World martial tournament that is.

Subjectively it doesn’t really bother me at all because Goku isn’t portrayed as completely incompetent or unlikable for the most part, and he’s still close enough to the Goku i remember that I can interpret his behaviour to be exaggerated due to this being an aging version of Goku who is feeling very nostalgic with the situation at hand. The idea of another adventure after so many years of endless battles against genocidal maniacs might be a huge breath of fresh air for him.

Is that intentionally written into his character by Toriyama? Highly doubtful but I can buy it in a diegetic sense which tends to be enough for me.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Sun Nov 03, 2024 12:54 am

Episode 4 was sooooooooo fun! I liked when Panzy was getting attacked by those military police officers, and then Goku jumped in to save her, using the Nyoi-Bo and all. Each time a new Daima episode comes out, I try to look for scenes that we've seen in the trailers. That said, the animation was delightful, and I'm interested to see what they'll do with the Medi Bug concept. And I laughed a little when Goku showed the Medi Bugs really cheerfully, while Shin was like "I don't really like bugs...".

Can't wait for episode 5! Hopefully it's not as abysmal as Super's, am I right, guys?

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sun Nov 03, 2024 3:55 am

Re: GT comparisons: Of course they're there to be made, and I see them, but so many of them are inherent to the nature of doing a small-party RPG-styled adventure in general that I'm not sure they're intentional, and even if they were...what is there really to be said, other than to point them out? I've held off on mentioning them since it's kind of here nor there to how Daima plays on its own, other than as a footnote. It certainly doesn't do anything "meta" as response or seek to call attention to them.

If it is Toriyama or Toei's attempt to reuse some ideas from GT (which I suppose is possible just in the seed of sending some deaged cast members on an adventure), or if it isn't, it's so agnostic to it in its own presentation that it doesn't feel like there's much to discuss there either way. We've had more overt reuses of meta franchise material in things like, obviously, Broly, as well as portions of the ToP roster.

But more importantly, it's doing very familiar things to about ten different short Toriyama manga that would come to mind before GT explicitly, and I think that general story/approach is more where its mind is than a specific Dragon Ball content revisit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Sun Nov 03, 2024 1:16 pm

I don't really see the problem with the fact that this is reinterpreting some of GT's ideas. That's a part of art in general, but also an especially common thing for Dragon Ball in particular to do. Remixing Chinese fables and kung fu flicks is baked into the IP's very inspiration and premise. Several arcs in the original comic remixed plot beats from prior arcs such that many became trends and cliches. Toei's movies riffed on manga story arcs, and Toriyama's plot beats seem to have riffed on Toei films from time to time. What Super has done, and what Daima is now doing, is extremely par the course.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 4 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Nov 03, 2024 2:06 pm

I wonder what the new character will add to the mix?

It will be nice to have more points of view about the Demon Realm beyond Glorio.
I wonder if she has one of those magic collars under her scarf, Glorio doesn't seem to have one for some reason...

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