About DBS Goku

[super michael]

"Sins" and "Plague", lol... it's amazing how a harmless cartoon for children can be hated with such passion.

Anyway, the Anime also reinforces multiple times that Goku isn't responsible for the universes' erasure and should be thanked for giving them a fighting chance.

Zamasu traveled to the future 1,000 year, yet the universe still exist. There is no guarantee that Zeno would have erased it.

U10 still exists 1,000 years into the future because Android 17 restored the erased universes at the end of the ToP. WTH is this argument?

Goku didn't go to Zeno place to save the Universe, he went to start a tournament, which Beerus and Whis warned that it was risky. Goku just got lucky that is all.

What Beerus and Whis think is irrelevant because we as the audience learned that Goku indeed gave the universes a fighting chance as Zeno was always planning to do some clean-up, even before Goku came up with the ToP idea.

And anyway, it is quite literally the exact same thing in the Manga.

We don't know if the ToP happened in the 1,000 years time skip into the future.
However we know in Future Trunks time line, which is into the future it didn't get erased, even though Goku died from his heart virus. There was no ToP in that time line.
It only got erased thanks to Goku multiple mistakes and calling Zeno.

Goku saw what Zeno was capable of doing, so he should have trusted Beerus and Whis words. But instead he went to Zeno place, just to start a tournament, regardless of the risk that he witnessed and was told.

[SupremeKai25]

We don't know if the ToP happened in the 1,000 years time skip into the future.

We know that Android 17 at the end of the ToP restored the erased universes. So the fact that U10 still exists 1,000 years into the future doesn't mean the ToP didn't happen... it means the ToP happened and 17 restored the erased universes.

This really isn't difficult to understand.

Goku saw what Zeno was capable of doing, so he should have trusted Beerus and Whis words. But instead he went to Zeno place, just to start a tournament, regardless of the risk that he witnessed and was told.

Doesn't matter, because the same thing happened in the Manga and that's what I cared about.

[super michael]

We don't know if the ToP happened in the 1,000 years time skip into the future.

We know that Android 17 at the end of the ToP restored the erased universes. So the fact that U10 still exists 1,000 years into the future doesn't mean the ToP didn't happen... it means the ToP happened and 17 restored the erased universes.

This really isn't difficult to understand.

Goku saw what Zeno was capable of doing, so he should have trusted Beerus and Whis words. But instead he went to Zeno place, just to start a tournament, regardless of the risk that he witnessed and was told.

Doesn't matter, because the same thing happened in the Manga and that's what I cared about.

I guess we can say thanks to Goku idea to start the tournament and Android 17 wish, that is how the universe exist even 1,000 years into the future.

However it doesn't explain why Future Trunks time line never got erased in all those years, since there was no Goku to suggest Zeno to start the tournament, since he was dead. Android 17 was evil and dead.
However thanks to Goku many mistakes, he had no choice but to call Zeno, who erased Future Trunks time line.

If Future Trunks didn't get erased, then it is possible the present time line wouldn't get erased, even if there was no ToP.

[SupremeKai25]

We don't know if the ToP happened in the 1,000 years time skip into the future.

We know that Android 17 at the end of the ToP restored the erased universes. So the fact that U10 still exists 1,000 years into the future doesn't mean the ToP didn't happen... it means the ToP happened and 17 restored the erased universes.

This really isn't difficult to understand.

Goku saw what Zeno was capable of doing, so he should have trusted Beerus and Whis words. But instead he went to Zeno place, just to start a tournament, regardless of the risk that he witnessed and was told.

Doesn't matter, because the same thing happened in the Manga and that's what I cared about.

I guess we can say thanks to Goku idea to start the tournament and Android 17 wish, that is how the universe exist even 1,000 years into the future.

However it doesn't explain why Future Trunks time line never got erased in all those years, since there was no Goku to suggest Zeno to start the tournament, since he was dead. Android 17 was evil and dead.
However thanks to Goku many mistakes, he had no choice but to call Zeno, who erased Future Trunks time line.

If Future Trunks didn't get erased, then it is possible the present time line wouldn't get erased, even if there was no ToP.

The Zamasu of Future Trunks' timeline never saw Planet Babari.

The version of Zamasu who saw Planet Babari was the one from the Main timeline, where the ToP happened.

And no one denies that 17's pure-hearted wish saved the multiverse. But at the same time, as is acknowledged in the story, Goku inadvertently gave the other universes fighting a chance.

Understand that Zeno was going to erase the lower universes all the same.

[super michael]

We know that Android 17 at the end of the ToP restored the erased universes. So the fact that U10 still exists 1,000 years into the future doesn't mean the ToP didn't happen... it means the ToP happened and 17 restored the erased universes.

This really isn't difficult to understand.



Doesn't matter, because the same thing happened in the Manga and that's what I cared about.

I guess we can say thanks to Goku idea to start the tournament and Android 17 wish, that is how the universe exist even 1,000 years into the future.

However it doesn't explain why Future Trunks time line never got erased in all those years, since there was no Goku to suggest Zeno to start the tournament, since he was dead. Android 17 was evil and dead.
However thanks to Goku many mistakes, he had no choice but to call Zeno, who erased Future Trunks time line.

If Future Trunks didn't get erased, then it is possible the present time line wouldn't get erased, even if there was no ToP.

The Zamasu of Future Trunks' timeline never saw Planet Babari.

The version of Zamasu who saw Planet Babari was the one from the Main timeline, where the ToP happened.

And no one denies that 17's pure-hearted wish saved the multiverse. But at the same time, as is acknowledged in the story, Goku inadvertently gave the other universes fighting a chance.

Understand that Zeno was going to erase the lower universes all the same.

Zeno wasn't going to erase Future Trunks time line, the same could have happened to the present time line, if Goku didn't go to Zeno place.

If Zeno forgot about the tournament, then isn't it possible Zeno would forget about erasing the universe.
However somehow Goku getting Zeno involved put the universe and time line at risk.

Had Goku being able to seal Zamasu, then Zeno wouldn't get involved and that time line would exist.

[SupremeKai25]

Zeno wasn't going to erase Future Trunks time line

There's no evidence of this.

Not interested in headcanon, sorry.

[super michael]

Zeno wasn't going to erase Future Trunks time line

There's no evidence of this.

Not interested in headcanon, sorry.

Show me were Zeno was interested in erasing Future Trunks time line, you have got nothing.
Here is a fact that you can't escape, Future Trunks time line got erased thanks to Goku making many mistakes, that he had no choice but to call Zeno. That is 100% fact.

Zamasu was killing Kaioshin, GoD and mortals, yet Zeno never got involved. It took Goku getting involved with Zeno, to get Future time line erased.

In the present time line Zeno forgot about the tournament, so he can forget about erasing the universe.

[SupremeKai25]

Show me were Zeno was interested in erasing Future Trunks time line, you have got nothing.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about anyway. I've said my piece.

[super michael]

Show me were Zeno was interested in erasing Future Trunks time line, you have got nothing.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of your point.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about anyway. I've said my piece.

You ignore how Zeno didn't erase Future Trunks time line, when Goku didn't get Zeno involved, that is a fact that you don't want to acknowledge.
You ignore that Goku had to call Zeno, because Goku didn't stop making many mistakes.

You also ignore that Zeno forgot about the tournament. If he can forget the tournament, then he can forget about erasing the universe.

The reason you don't want to acknowledge those point, is because you want to defend DBS.

Edit Future Trunks time line is 17 years into the future compared to the present time line, yet even with that gap, Zeno didn't erase it at all, at least Goku got him involved.

[Freezer94]

Show me were Zeno was interested in erasing Future Trunks time line, you have got nothing.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of your point.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about anyway. I've said my piece.

You ignore how Zeno didn't erase Future Trunks time line, when Goku didn't get Zeno involved, that is a fact that you don't want to acknowledge.
You ignore that Goku had to call Zeno, because Goku didn't stop making many mistakes.

You also ignore that Zeno forgot about the tournament. If he can forget the tournament, then he can forget about erasing the universe.

The reason you don't want to acknowledge those point, is because you want to defend DBS.

Edit Future Trunks time line is 17 years into the future compared to the present time line, yet even with that gap, Zeno didn't erase it at all, at least Goku got him involved.

In the manga continuity the only mistake Goku really made was that he accidentally grabbed one wrong thing instead of another similar thing. That's not a huge character flaw and classic DB has countless examples of Goku doing worse things than that.

Goku tried his best to defeat Zamas and Black but it was near impossible, it was an immortal being that was spreading far all across a dying world with barely anyone alive. Not even a Mr Satan helped genki dama could fix that.

Time was running out and Goku with his back against the wall did the only thing he could do. And it too saved the multiverse because Zamas has proven capable of traversing universes and timeliness. This was basically cutting off an arm to save the rest of the body (except on a significantly larger scale). He also thought Zeno would just kill these Zamas and not the entire timeline.

Goku isn't to blame here.

[super michael]

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of your point.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about anyway. I've said my piece.

You ignore how Zeno didn't erase Future Trunks time line, when Goku didn't get Zeno involved, that is a fact that you don't want to acknowledge.
You ignore that Goku had to call Zeno, because Goku didn't stop making many mistakes.

You also ignore that Zeno forgot about the tournament. If he can forget the tournament, then he can forget about erasing the universe.

The reason you don't want to acknowledge those point, is because you want to defend DBS.

Edit Future Trunks time line is 17 years into the future compared to the present time line, yet even with that gap, Zeno didn't erase it at all, at least Goku got him involved.

In the manga continuity the only mistake Goku really made was that he accidentally grabbed one wrong thing instead of another similar thing. That's not a huge character flaw and classic DB has countless examples of Goku doing worse things than that.

Goku tried his best to defeat Zamas and Black but it was near impossible, it was an immortal being that was spreading far all across a dying world with barely anyone alive. Not even a Mr Satan helped genki dama could fix that.

Time was running out and Goku with his back against the wall did the only thing he could do. And it too saved the multiverse because Zamas has proven capable of traversing universes and timeliness. This was basically cutting off an arm to save the rest of the body (except on a significantly larger scale). He also thought Zeno would just kill these Zamas and not the entire timeline.

Goku isn't to blame here.

In the manga Goku only mistake was getting the wrong tag, as you mentioned and reverting back to SSJ when he was fighting Future Zamasu. However that is still less than DBS Anime Goku.

True in the manga Goku isn't to blame for Future Trunks time line getting erased, since he didn't know what Zeno reaction be like.
However for the ToP, Goku is to blame for that. Especially when Beerus threatened Goku to erase him.

Somehow in both time line Zeno planned to erase their universe, when Goku got involved. Even with 17 years difference in the future, Zeno didn't erase that time line, until Goku got involved with Zeno.

[SupremeKai25]

Show me were Zeno was interested in erasing Future Trunks time line, you have got nothing.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of your point.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about anyway. I've said my piece.

You ignore how Zeno didn't erase Future Trunks time line, when Goku didn't get Zeno involved, that is a fact that you don't want to acknowledge.
You ignore that Goku had to call Zeno, because Goku didn't stop making many mistakes.

You also ignore that Zeno forgot about the tournament. If he can forget the tournament, then he can forget about erasing the universe.

The reason you don't want to acknowledge those point, is because you want to defend DBS.

Edit Future Trunks time line is 17 years into the future compared to the present time line, yet even with that gap, Zeno didn't erase it at all, at least Goku got him involved.

We were talking about the ToP arc. You're the one who randomly jumped to the previous arc.

I simply see no point in talking about the FT arc.

Not really that complicated to understand.

[super michael]

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of your point.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about anyway. I've said my piece.

You ignore how Zeno didn't erase Future Trunks time line, when Goku didn't get Zeno involved, that is a fact that you don't want to acknowledge.
You ignore that Goku had to call Zeno, because Goku didn't stop making many mistakes.

You also ignore that Zeno forgot about the tournament. If he can forget the tournament, then he can forget about erasing the universe.

The reason you don't want to acknowledge those point, is because you want to defend DBS.

Edit Future Trunks time line is 17 years into the future compared to the present time line, yet even with that gap, Zeno didn't erase it at all, at least Goku got him involved.

We were talking about the ToP arc. You're the one who randomly jumped to the previous arc.

I simply see no point in talking about the FT arc.

Not really that complicated to understand.

My point is simple to understand.
Future Zeno never erased Future Trunks time line, no matter how bad it got. This is 17 years into the future compared to the present time line.
Present Zeno forgot about the tournament, he can forget about erasing the universe.

There is one thing in common between both time line. Future Zeno erased the future time line when Goku got Zeno involved. Present time line was threatened to get erased thanks to Goku going to Zeno.

[Freezer94]

You ignore how Zeno didn't erase Future Trunks time line, when Goku didn't get Zeno involved, that is a fact that you don't want to acknowledge.
You ignore that Goku had to call Zeno, because Goku didn't stop making many mistakes.

You also ignore that Zeno forgot about the tournament. If he can forget the tournament, then he can forget about erasing the universe.

The reason you don't want to acknowledge those point, is because you want to defend DBS.

Edit Future Trunks time line is 17 years into the future compared to the present time line, yet even with that gap, Zeno didn't erase it at all, at least Goku got him involved.

In the manga continuity the only mistake Goku really made was that he accidentally grabbed one wrong thing instead of another similar thing. That's not a huge character flaw and classic DB has countless examples of Goku doing worse things than that.

Goku tried his best to defeat Zamas and Black but it was near impossible, it was an immortal being that was spreading far all across a dying world with barely anyone alive. Not even a Mr Satan helped genki dama could fix that.

Time was running out and Goku with his back against the wall did the only thing he could do. And it too saved the multiverse because Zamas has proven capable of traversing universes and timeliness. This was basically cutting off an arm to save the rest of the body (except on a significantly larger scale). He also thought Zeno would just kill these Zamas and not the entire timeline.

Goku isn't to blame here.

In the manga Goku only mistake was getting the wrong tag, as you mentioned and reverting back to SSJ when he was fighting Future Zamasu. However that is still less than DBS Anime Goku.

True in the manga Goku isn't to blame for Future Trunks time line getting erased, since he didn't know what Zeno reaction be like.
However for the ToP, Goku is to blame for that. Especially when Beerus threatened Goku to erase him.

Somehow in both time line Zeno planned to erase their universe, when Goku got involved. Even with 17 years difference in the future, Zeno didn't erase that time line, until Goku got involved with Zeno.

In TOP it's also not his fault. Ignoring the fact that it gave universes a chance and was actually a good in the end for everyone since Goku wouldn't have known that. Just going off what Goku knew; Zeno liked the previous tournament, said he wanted a new one with all universes, and Goku wanted to do that. Sure Beerus and Whis told Goku he shouldn't but from Goku's perspective Zeno is just a fun little guy and his friend, so he didn't think anything bad would come from it.

You can argue this is still bad and clearly lots of fans do but it doesn't register with me anywhere near the degree of Goku keeping Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza alive at the time when all he knew them as were villains that want to kill and rule the world/universe. This isn't even near the degree of Goku letting Gero create his artificial humans when he has ample opportunity to stop it, not going all out against Vegeta when Bobbidi was getting energy from that fight for Boo, or Goku advising Goten and Trunks don't use the room of spirit and time immediately in case they need it later.

Goku as a character has made lots of big mistakes over the course of DB, it's just a part of his character that he doesn't think things through thoroughly and enjoys fighting for its own sake. And to get back to the point it is totally in character of Goku to want to do the TOP (when from his perspective no one will be killed) and it's not that bad considering all the other times he truly did selfish things that would obviously lead to much more human death in original DB.

[AliTheZombie13]

The problem about ToP for me, and me agreeing with the fact that Goku is either partially or completely responsible for what happened, boils down to a few key details.

Mostly, the characters mentioning "Oh, but Zeno was already planning to do that, even before Goku asked him to. Goku gave everybody a fighting chance, actually!"

However, in the ending, it is revealed that Zeno foresaw the outcome of the tournament and knew that someone would be good enough to restore the erased universes, and decided to throw the tournament as a way to test the mortals' worth. And if the winner made a wish that wasn't what #17 wished for, Zeno would erase everyone, including the winner.

This opens a large can of worms.

If Goku "reminded" Zeno to throw the tournament, was he already planning to erase everybody? But I thought he wouldn't follow through with it, because the ending gave me the impression Zeno wasn't the psychotic manchild everyone thought he was and actually had a sense of morality. Was he already planning on a way of testing the mortals' worth, and Goku reminding them just gave them the perfect idea of how to do that, or was he not planning anything at all and Goku inadvertently gave them the entire idea of testing the mortals through a tournament?

On top of that, what would've happened if, say, Goku won the tournament instead of #17? The way he kept acting before suggested he wouldn't wish for everyone else to be restored. "I don't know, why don't we wish for that boat you wanted so much? " comes to mind. Since Super was so dead set on this idea that Goku is no hero and he doesn't care about anything except fighting and his friends, what would've happened if he won and made the wrong wish? What would've happened if Jiren won and wished for his family and friends to be resurrected instead? Everybody would've been erased! The entire "Goku gave them a fighting chance!" argument falls apart here.

None of this erases the fact that, Goku had personally seen Zeno wipe out an entire timeline, and decided it was a good idea to bring him to his, and provoke him further after both Beerus and Whis, who I might remind you is his master, told him not to. Every action has a consequence. Would the tournament still happen if Goku had not brought another Zeno to his timeline? Would just a single Zeno get bored or sadistic enough to throw that tournament? The future timelines still existed, so that seriously makes me doubt that Zeno was already planning anything before Goku arrived, much less before Goku added another Zeno to the equation.

Of course, all of this is about the way things happen in the anime. The manga had a different beginning and ending. We are shown the two Zeno's complaining that things are boring and they're tired of watching over so many universes, they might as well erase some. The entire explanation that the tournament was actually a way to test the mortals' worth and they would erase everybody if the right wish wasn't made is also absent from the manga.

So "Goku actually gave everybody a fighting chance!" only applies to the manga's continuity.
Because in the anime? Goku nearly fucked everybody over for a good fight.

[SupremeKai25]

You ignore how Zeno didn't erase Future Trunks time line, when Goku didn't get Zeno involved, that is a fact that you don't want to acknowledge.
You ignore that Goku had to call Zeno, because Goku didn't stop making many mistakes.

You also ignore that Zeno forgot about the tournament. If he can forget the tournament, then he can forget about erasing the universe.

The reason you don't want to acknowledge those point, is because you want to defend DBS.

Edit Future Trunks time line is 17 years into the future compared to the present time line, yet even with that gap, Zeno didn't erase it at all, at least Goku got him involved.

We were talking about the ToP arc. You're the one who randomly jumped to the previous arc.

I simply see no point in talking about the FT arc.

Not really that complicated to understand.

My point is simple to understand.
Future Zeno never erased Future Trunks time line, no matter how bad it got. This is 17 years into the future compared to the present time line.
Present Zeno forgot about the tournament, he can forget about erasing the universe.

There is one thing in common between both time line. Future Zeno erased the future time line when Goku got Zeno involved. Present time line was threatened to get erased thanks to Goku going to Zeno.

We don't know how long it would have taken Zeno to erase the universes, but the fact of the matter is: he wanted to erase the universes, and Goku gave them a fighting chance. This is literally acknowledged by the Gods during the tournament.

The problem about ToP for me, and me agreeing with the fact that Goku is either partially or completely responsible for what happened, boils down to a few key details.

Mostly, the characters mentioning "Oh, but Zeno was already planning to do that, even before Goku asked him to. Goku gave everybody a fighting chance, actually!"

However, in the ending, it is revealed that Zeno foresaw the outcome of the tournament and knew that someone would be good enough to restore the erased universes, and decided to throw the tournament as a way to test the mortals' worth. And if the winner made a wish that wasn't what #17 wished for, Zeno would erase everyone, including the winner.

This opens a large can of worms.

If Goku "reminded" Zeno to throw the tournament, was he already planning to erase everybody? But I thought he wouldn't follow through with it, because the ending gave me the impression Zeno wasn't the psychotic manchild everyone thought he was and actually had a sense of morality. Was he already planning on a way of testing the mortals' worth, and Goku reminding them just gave them the perfect idea of how to do that, or was he not planning anything at all and Goku inadvertently gave them the entire idea of testing the mortals through a tournament?

On top of that, what would've happened if, say, Goku won the tournament instead of #17? The way he kept acting before suggested he wouldn't wish for everyone else to be restored. "I don't know, why don't we wish for that boat you wanted so much? " comes to mind. Since Super was so dead set on this idea that Goku is no hero and he doesn't care about anything except fighting and his friends, what would've happened if he won and made the wrong wish? What would've happened if Jiren won and wished for his family and friends to be resurrected instead? Everybody would've been erased! The entire "Goku gave them a fighting chance!" argument falls apart here.

None of this erases the fact that, Goku had personally seen Zeno wipe out an entire timeline, and decided it was a good idea to bring him to his, and provoke him further after both Beerus and Whis, who I might remind you is his master, told him not to. Every action has a consequence. Would the tournament still happen if Goku had not brought another Zeno to his timeline? Would just a single Zeno get bored or sadistic enough to throw that tournament? The future timelines still existed, so that seriously makes me doubt that Zeno was already planning anything before Goku arrived, much less before Goku added another Zeno to the equation.

Of course, all of this is about the way things happen in the anime. The manga had a different beginning and ending. We are shown the two Zeno's complaining that things are boring and they're tired of watching over so many universes, they might as well erase some. The entire explanation that the tournament was actually a way to test the mortals' worth and they would erase everybody if the right wish wasn't made is also absent from the manga.

So "Goku actually gave everybody a fighting chance!" only applies to the manga's continuity.
Because in the anime? Goku nearly fucked everybody over for a good fight.

Or Goku gave the universes a fighting chance and the chance to show Zeno that mortals are compassionate and worth keeping around.

These two are not mutually exclusive.

And "Goku actually gave everybody a fighting chance" applies to the Anime too since it's literally what the Gods state in the Anime.

[AliTheZombie13]

Since Zeno was so in doubt about whether mortals are compassionate and worth keeping around, do tell me: How were they planning to test that before Goku arrived and told them to throw a tournament? Were they even planning on doing that, at all? Would they have resorted to something else that wasn't as brutal as "If you lose, you're erased from existence"?

What the anime leads me to believe is that "Goku actually gave everybody a fighting chance!" was a piss-poor excuse to "No one was going to get erased, because Zeno is actually good and wise and foresaw this outcome!" So uh... The entire tournament was a sham. I highly doubt it would've even happened if Goku didn't open his big mouth. If Jiren had won, "the fighting chance" was as valuable as dirt.

[SupremeKai25]

Were they even planning on doing that, at all?

They weren't planning on doing that, at all. Which is why, as acknowledged multiple times in the story, Goku gave the universes a fighting chance and a chance to save themselves. If Goku never convinced the Zenos to do a tournament, the Zenos wouldn't have even bothered with that moral lesson at all. It's simple.

[AliTheZombie13]

If Zeno is as moral and wise as Super's twist ending wants me to believe, then he wouldn't erase anyone for no reason.
The Tournament and the erasure of the universes would've never happened if not for Goku in the anime.

[TechExpert2021]

Is Mini Goku in Daima dumb like DBS Goku?