Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 6 - Official Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

I, on the other hand, have been watching the episodes twice. I have almost never rewatched episodes like this. Daima has a great feeling to it. The characters feel like themselves. The lore development is great. It looks beautiful. better than anything Dragon Ball I have seen, and it makes me smile. At the end of every episode I have been "WAIT, WHAT?! IS THE EPISODE OVER ALREADY?!" I guess at 42 years old I am still a big, playful kid. And I am so happy for that. That I can enjoy things without analyzing and going into detail.

To be clear, I'm not sitting there scrutinizing episodes, and am generally enjoying them while watching them.

It's just stepping away from it that I realize I'm not as drawn in as I have been with past Dragon Ball material, and am then stepping back and figuring out why that is.

(Nor as engaged as I have been with the many single-volume Toriyama series this resembles, so it's something in the execution other than the formula.)

The episode prior to that introduced a number of elements about the characters and world and its denizens.

There's been a ton on "the world and its denizens." That isn't narrative progress of any kind though, and it makes up the bulk of episodes 3 through 5, after 1 and 2 being setup. That's part of my hemming over the pacing in what should be a snappy adventure, surely.

Episode 6 was probably my favorite so far, in part because the minotaur gag is really amusing, and in part because it's the first where any moderately surprising character interactions have been at the fore. But I feel like we could have gotten right into more content in this style, as Toriyama's short manga tend to do (along with the opening arc of DB, although that has its languid bits in the middle). Part of that is that they're establishing new casts and their dynamics from page 1, whereas Daima half consists of characters you know and love (which maybe wasn't the right choice for this type of story?), but I can't think of any chapters that feel like they spend quite as much time solely on world-building elements as that string of episodes, and they're all right at the front. DB Chapter 2 tells us Hoi-Poi capsules exist, but they matter a lot less than the many more pages spent on Goku and Bulma trying to live in the Capsule house together.

Again, I'm sitting through each episode with a smile on my face and working backward toward why I'm not really stoked for the next one or thinking about it afterward--except while on this forum, obviously.

[Mr Baggins]

There's been a ton on "the world and its denizens." That isn't narrative progress of any kind though, and it makes up the bulk of episodes 3 through 5, after 1 and 2 being setup. That's part of my hemming over the pacing in what should be a snappy adventure, surely.

Sure it is. The kind of progress is the kind of narrative this is telling, which is a group of travelers exploring a new world while also discovering more about each other, and how it oscillates there is pretty consistently snappy; sometimes even entwined. Needless to say, I don't find any of the character dynamics lacking in comparison to the original manga's opening arc – there's plenty of that even within the three episodes you mentioned.

I think what you're really trying to get at is that the show is more immediately lore-heavy than anything Toriyama has worked on thus far, and that's true. But it's also not particularly surprising. Given the scope and history of the demon realm, this whole setting is arguably the most alien we've had in the franchise. Makes sense to me that we'd come across more worldbuilding than would be expected from other tales, be it in DB or Toriyama's one-offs, which I'd say befits this kind of story.

Some of this stuff is new territory for Dragon Ball, but it's territory I find refreshing and engaging and still very Toriyama-like all the same. I'm having a blast, personally.

Again, I'm sitting through each episode with a smile on my face and working backward toward why I'm not really stoked for the next one or thinking about it afterward--except while on this forum, obviously.

"Stoked" in what sense, general excitement for the show or stoked for the next episode's events? While I can't say I relate to the former, the latter might be because none of these episodes tend to conclude on big cliffhangers or have previews longer than a literal second or two.

There's not much forethought to be had when we're generally given so few clues about where the journey will take us next. That is pretty fitting, though.

[Yuji]

I don't see what about the demon realm makes it any less alien than any other setting before it? It's been a barren wasteland so far and magic functions exactly like Ki at the moment. It's also suffering a bit from the Beerus problem of "you know that thing/event from long ago? Yeah, it came from here" of trying to connect old, vague lore elements to the new ones.

I find the royal lineages and Glind/Namekian heritage interesting enough in concept, and character designs have been good in fairness, but knowing this is borrowing so many JRPG tropes and the realm is not setting itself apart aesthetically or conceptually enough from the other planets or realms in the series, I can't agree that this level of world building is necessary enough to bog the pace down.

I'm vaguely interested in the fusion bugs, Dabra's backstory with his father, and more Namekian and Glind lore, but this barren wasteland backdrop in World 3 so far isn't very interesting to look at for so many episodes, especially when it seems they've made no progress and are going around in circles.

[LightBing]

There's been a lot of information introduced.

The dictatorship of the Demon Realm, how there's an army enforcing it and how they do it. Taking life years away, which can apparently be given around, since Neva was promised extended lifespan.
There's also the magic collars, which certainly will play a part and work based on magic.

There's the background with the class stratification distributed by the three Worlds and the blocked traversal. Plus the history, it's said there's was a huge migration which had large implications in the Universe at large, mainly the Namekians, Glinds and who knows who else.

We're also introduced to the white and black magic, which again might make for further revisions of what's know about the Dragon Balls.

There's a picture being painted every episode, this one was actually the most shallow in that aspect.

[Majin Buu]

I don't see what about the demon realm makes it any less alien than any other setting before it? It's been a barren wasteland so far and magic functions exactly like Ki at the moment. It's also suffering a bit from the Beerus problem of "you know that thing/event from long ago? Yeah, it came from here" of trying to connect old, vague lore elements to the new ones.

Eh, I don't think any of the lore retcons in Daima thus far have been on the level of "Beerus actually told Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta" (or signed off on it, it's never been clear to me which it is). That retcon awkwardly shoved a new character into a very important event and took away some of an existing character's agency in said event.

The Namekians and Kaioshin's race in contrast have been so minimally fleshed out as a people (even less fleshed out in the case of Kaioshin's people considering that lore only existed in a guidebook until now) that there's more room for expanding on their lore without running into those kinds of hiccups. Like some pointed out after Episode 1 aired, the retcon that Namekians originate from the Demon Realm gives context to Piccolo Daimao calling himself a Daimao. It's a retcon that adds to existing lore as opposed to the Beerus retcon, which subtracts from existing lore by diminishing Freeza's agency in the destruction of Planet Vegeta.

[Yuji]

I don't see what about the demon realm makes it any less alien than any other setting before it? It's been a barren wasteland so far and magic functions exactly like Ki at the moment. It's also suffering a bit from the Beerus problem of "you know that thing/event from long ago? Yeah, it came from here" of trying to connect old, vague lore elements to the new ones.

Eh, I don't think any of the lore retcons in Daima thus far have been on the level of "Beerus actually told Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta" (or signed off on it, it's never been clear to me which it is). That retcon awkwardly shoved a new character into a very important event and took away some (to be generous) of an existing character's agency in said event.

The Namekians in contrast have been so minimally fleshed out as a people that there's more room for expanding on their lore without running into those kinds of hiccups. Like some pointed out after Episode 1 aired, the retcon that Namekians originate from the Demon Realm gives context to Piccolo Daimao calling himself a Daimao. It's a retcon that adds to existing lore as opposed to the Beerus retcon, which subtracts from existing lore by diminishing Freeza's agency in the destruction of Planet Vegeta.

I'm fine with the Namekians, it's the Kaioshin retcon that brings up more questions than answers. Namely, how come they're the authority now? Are they still born in the demon realm or are there new trees outside of it? Are Kaio considered Glind too or are they a different species or subspecies? I'm sure the show will answer some if not all of these questions but it's a puzzling one for sure. Namekians, as you said, were vague enough and the seeds of the reveal were already planted during Super's Granolah arc.

[Majin Buu]

I'm fine with the Namekians, it's the Kaioshin retcon that brings up more questions than answers. Namely, how come they're the authority now? Are they still born in the demon realm or are there new trees outside of it? Are Kaio considered Glind too or are they a different species or subspecies? I'm sure the show will answer some if not all of these questions but it's a puzzling one for sure. Namekians, as you said, were vague enough and the seeds of the reveal were already planted during Super's Granolah arc.

(I was in the process of editing my last post to include Kaioshin's people when you responded)

I'm fine with how they've fleshed out his people. His statements imply that many (if not most) of the Glinds are no longer in the Demon Realm, and considering it's been established that many of the races that originate there left, I assume the Glinds just settled somewhere outside of the Demon Realm like those other races.

It does beg the question of how Kaioshin became a god and how the Kaio are connected to the Kaioshin (if they are at all, I don't recall if that guidebook lore referenced the Kaio too or only the Kaioshin), but for me, that information isn't essential to my enjoyment of the show so whether we get answers to those questions or not isn't that important to me.

[Koitsukai]

I also don't see here anything being shoehorned like the Beerus retcon, that felt so artificial. Nothing feels artificial with the newer revelations, on the contrary, it's fitting to have Piccolo be a demon. Kaioshins being demons is funny too, gods are actual demons, this is so Toriyama.

The Glinds becoming Kaioshin is a thing to be addressed for sure, some things don't add up currently due to lack of information.
Did they leave as a group? do they leave whenever they reach adulthood or something? how does one get a passcode to leave? are there any Glinds left here? are there any Glinds on U7 that aren't Kaioshin? where are they? how do they compare to Shin?

And how the fuck do they become supreme gods? and why them? if they create planets/life, who creates them? or where do these trees come from? Although these last two questions might be too existential for the franchise and never be mentioned, the former questions probably will be answered when they reach the 2nd Realm. So far, I'm not complaining about not having the full picture.
I'm guessing by episode 8 they'll be meeting the first Tamagami, and by episode 10 they'll be on Shin's Realm.

[Zephyr]

I honestly never put much thought into how I feel about the all of the Beerus retcons, but this conversation has made gears start turning in my head. Personally I think a god whose job revolves around destruction having had some sort of background role in one of the most famous and iconic instances of destruction in the series is reasonably inspired.

Sealing the Elder Kaioshin away, not so much. It's somewhat tempting to lump wiping out the dinosaurs and destroying Kaio's planet in with the former, since they're also destruction-related but they aren't as inspired. Besides the dinosaurs still being around, them being wiped out is something that is famous and iconic in our world, not the Dragon World. Besides that, the notion that Beerus destroyed Kaio's much bigger planet was introduced alongside the notion that he had a bigger planet in the first place (if I remember correctly), so it's just making up a new historic instance of destruction to lump him in with, rather than tying him into a more familiar one.

Bringing it back to Daima, I think learning that the Namekians and Pit People Glinds have some deeper shared history works for me because we already know that they had some in the first place (ie: Elder Kaioshin lecturing them about the Dragon Balls). It's a revelation that feels like it's building on a past one, rather than just pulling a random twist out, if that makes sense. And, yeah, as said above, having it loop back around to Piccolo now being a demon in multiple different kinds of ways is pretty funny.

[LoganForkHands73]

I honestly never put much thought into how I feel about the all of the Beerus retcons, but this conversation has made gears start turning in my head. Personally I think a god whose job revolves around destruction having had some sort of background role in one of the most famous and iconic instances of destruction in the series is reasonably inspired.

Sealing the Elder Kaioshin away, not so much. It's somewhat tempting to lump wiping out the dinosaurs and destroying Kaio's planet in with the former, since they're also destruction-related but they aren't as inspired. Besides the dinosaurs still being around, them being wiped out is something that is famous and iconic in our world, not the Dragon World. Besides that, the notion that Beerus destroyed Kaio's much bigger planet was introduced alongside the notion that he had a bigger planet in the first place (if I remember correctly), so it's just making up a new historic instance of destruction to lump him in with, rather than tying him into a more familiar one.

Bringing it back to Daima, I think learning that the Namekians and Pit People Glinds have some deeper shared history works for me because we already know that they had some in the first place (ie: Elder Kaioshin lecturing them about the Dragon Balls). It's a revelation that feels like it's building on a past one, rather than just pulling a random twist out, if that makes sense. And, yeah, as said above, having it loop back around to Piccolo now being a demon in multiple different kinds of ways is pretty funny.

The Beerus retcons work for me in the context of a running gag. It feels very much in the spirit of the ridiculous Eobard Thawne "It was me, Barry" memes, with a dash of "The day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday". Everyone has good reason to hate and fear this weird greedy cat dude, but he barely registers any of the occasions he messed with their lives in the past.

Also, in a way, it all foreshadows Beerus's main flaw and weakness which is that he isn't very thorough for a Destroyer God, and that he is perhaps capable of mercy. He obviously failed to wipe out the dinosaurs in the Dragon Ball universe seeing as they still roam around Earth and a T. rex even appears later in the film; he prompted Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta out of laziness, but several Saiyans escaped the slaughter; he destroyed most of Kaio-sama's planet but left him with the small chunk that he seems quite comfortable living on; he sealed Elder Kaioshin in the Z-Sword rather than kill him, which doubly works with the additional reveal that Hakaishin and Kaioshin lives are intertwined; lastly, he humiliated King Vegeta and traumatised his son, but he ultimately spared both of them.

Anyway, I think what keeps all the lore dumps about the Kaioshin bearable is the ongoing mystery of why exactly Shin and the others decided to migrate from the Demon Realm in the distant past and what mechanism allowed them to become the supreme deities of Universe 7 when the Glinds (side note, this name rolls off the tongue so much better than the assumed "Core Person" name we had to latch onto) seem like small fry by Demon Realm standards. Of course, taking Dragon Ball Super into account, all Kaioshin across the multiverse are Glinds, so did Zeno or the Grand Priest appoint them? And besides Degesu and Arinsu's respective character flaws of being too ambitious and mad-sciencey, why do they even pretend to toady to a weakling like Gomah? We've had plenty of details, but they seem very conspicuously avoiding the "why" in these cases. I'm fairly certain they mentioned Glinds are from the Second Demon World, so they're not even from the highest domain in their native realm. Some interesting contradictions all round.