Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Gohan still being used as a benchmark means that level of power remains comparable to similar forms even after BoG, RoF and U6. While, I don't think each form has a set multiplier as if it's all perfectly symmetrical, it implies their forms remain in the same vecinity as before. Stronger, definitely, but current SS2 Goku isn't 10x stronger than in Z.

The Android and Cell arc made a point of having them improve and tweak the SS transformation. The Buu arc introduced more SS forms. The base level was not improved upon in DBZ after learning to become a SS. Any gain the base forms could've gotten were a byproduct. The giant leaps happen after they encounter Moro's magic.

[Yuji]

Gohan still being used as a benchmark means that level of power remains comparable to similar forms even after BoG, RoF and U6. While, I don't think each form has a set multiplier as if it's all perfectly symmetrical, it implies their forms remain in the same vecinity as before. Stronger, definitely, but current SS2 Goku isn't 10x stronger than in Z.

The Android and Cell arc made a point of having them improve and tweak the SS transformation. The Buu arc introduced more SS forms. The base level was not improved upon in DBZ after learning to become a SS. Any gain the base forms could've gotten were a byproduct. The giant leaps happen after they encounter Moro's magic.

I think the only hiccup here is the wonky scaling with Goku Black, especially in the manga, where he goes from defeating SS3-tier Trunks in base form/SS to being defeated by SS2 Vegeta, to defeating SSB Vegeta in SS after a Zenkai and then powering up further to SSR, only to be defeated later by a Vegeta whose only training was learning how to switch between God and Blue without losing stamina.

So SSB Vegeta post-ROSAT > SSR Black > SS Black post Zenkai > SSB Vegeta > SS2 Vegeta > SS Black > Base Black > SS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku

And of course Goku remains Vegeta's equal even though he trained for a day to learn the Mafuba.

You just kinda have to assume the scaling makes no sense or you end up having Vegeta becoming thousands of times stronger by training 6 months while focusing on something other than increasing his raw battle power, in the same arc where it is stated he can't improve his battle power much anymore (after that was also stated in the previous arc, as well).

The anime admittedly makes more sense for once, if you assume his base form is similar to SSG and Rose is regular SS on top of that.

[Hugo Boss]

This comparison highlights how lesser forms’ growth stagnates over time, with Goku focusing on mastering ki control and unlocking new transformations for further gains. Trunks’ SS2 edge in strength during the sparring session also reinforces how individual circumstances influence power progression (e.g., repeated battles in his timeline against Goku Black using SS2 without realizing higher levels existed).

Additionally, significant base form growth in the Super manga primarily occurs after unconventional training, such as Ultra Instinct or spiritual practices, supported by contextual cues like Merus implying Goku’s body grew strong enough to stabilize UI and Vegeta’s refined ki surprising even himself.

This framework makes the progression from the Cell, Boo, and post-BoG arcs consistent with how power evolves primarily through transformations and mastery rather than sheer base strength.

Regarding the Goku Black arc, while his power progression in the manga feels inconsistent, it can be rationalized by assuming his Zenkais are amplified due to Zamasu’s divine ki merging with Goku’s Saiyan physiology. This unique synergy likely enables his body to adapt far beyond standard Saiyan limits after each battle. Vegeta’s growth, too, focuses on mastering god ki efficiency rather than raw strength, with ROSAT training perfecting his stamina control and allowing him to sustain Blue at higher output levels.

[RandomGuy96]

Why would you assume Toriyama purposefully wrote it so everyone got weaker, to Namek arc levels - even though Gohan is the only one referenced to have gotten weaker - and not that he simply did not realize how strong the characters were?

The end result may be the same but one implies authorial intent in a way I don't think you can argue Toriyama was conscious of.

Because he gives specific battle power numbers and later writes Krillin and Goku getting hurt by bullets with the explicit justification that they're weaker now due to slacking off.

What do you guys make of the comparison between Trunks and CG Gohan?

The fact that Gohan is still a benchmark probably means their base battle powers haven't increased much at all from the Cell Games. This fits with Trunks' statement later in the arc that Goku and Vegeta have achieved their limit long ago through zenkai boosts and conventional training.

This is contextually obvious from both that and the fact that SS Trunks still weaker than Dabra, with Black showing up literally the same day they fight.

Gohan still being used as a benchmark means that level of power remains comparable to similar forms even after BoG, RoF and U6. While, I don't think each form has a set multiplier as if it's all perfectly symmetrical, it implies their forms remain in the same vecinity as before. Stronger, definitely, but current SS2 Goku isn't 10x stronger than in Z.

The Android and Cell arc made a point of having them improve and tweak the SS transformation. The Buu arc introduced more SS forms. The base level was not improved upon in DBZ after learning to become a SS. Any gain the base forms could've gotten were a byproduct. The giant leaps happen after they encounter Moro's magic.

I think the only hiccup here is the wonky scaling with Goku Black, especially in the manga, where he goes from defeating SS3-tier Trunks in base form/SS to being defeated by SS2 Vegeta, to defeating SSB Vegeta in SS after a Zenkai and then powering up further to SSR, only to be defeated later by a Vegeta whose only training was learning how to switch between God and Blue without losing stamina.

I think the intent here was that Vegeta's anger increasing his SS2's power wasn't a one-time thing but a permanent boost, so his SS2 is stronger than Trunks' SS2 or Goku's SS3. This fits both how the characters talk about that moment in BoG and also how the same arc introduces Trunks having a powered-up SS2 form with no visual change.

Also that Super Saiyan multipliers for Black are fake and his "Rose" form is pretty much as strong as his regular Super Saiyan was. The fact that he even has a Rose form is already solid proof that his transformations don't work identically to Goku's. Combine that with the already-present idea that SSB's peak power is a lot higher than its sustained power (what Vegeta was doing against Black was basically a crappier version of the "MSSB" that Goku then uses against Fused Zamasu) and everything makes sense.

[Koitsukai]

I think Vegeta's SS2 being way above Goku's SS3, while they are always mentioned to be equals, implies some forms (SS2 in this case) don't follow the same pattern of multiplier than the other forms. Meaning, if my SS2 form is stronger than yours, that doesn't mean that all my forms must be stronger, as it isn't as linear as one would expect.

Goku Base (10) SS (500) SS2 (1000) SS3 (4000) SSG (10k) SSB (500k)
Vegeta Base (10) SS (500) SS2 (5000) SSG (10k) SSB (500K)

With Goku and Vegeta having pretty the same power overall, but Geets being able to summon more of it at a certain stage. I'd like to think Vegeta unlocked SS3 without transforming into SS3, just by mastering SS2 (Which Trunks did as well, but not becoming as strong as his father). His SS3 tier is just above Goku's for some reason, perhaps due to not undergoing a big change like Goku does.

If we drop the unofficial notion that forms follow a linear pattern, and accept that they are more flexible than that we would like them to be the FT arc is not as complicated.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's not that Toriyama made the characters weaker on purpose, more like he doesn't really understand how strong his characters are. The feats are really confusing and show feats-based scaling is completely pointless (Sorry Vs Wiki), but saying everyone's power level diminished is just a complicated way of avoiding to type so many zeroes.

What do you guys make of the comparison between Trunks and CG Gohan?

The fact that Gohan is still a benchmark probably means their base battle powers haven't increased much at all from the Cell Games. This fits with Trunks' statement later in the arc that Goku and Vegeta have achieved their limit long ago through zenkai boosts and conventional training.

In the Boo arc, most already acknowledge that although Goku got stronger than Gohan in the same forms, the increase wasn't that much.

So if between the Cell Games and Boo arc, Goku got 10 or 15% stronger, then between Boo and Zamasu, he got another 5 or 10% in base form.

They seem to get stronger post Namek not by strengthening their base battle powers significantly but by unlocking new forms and mastering the ones they have.

Prior to the Moro arc at least, which is where I believe they've made significant increases to all forms via the UI and spirit training which are more unconventional.

10-15%? More like 50% or so, and you can check other lists from here if you think I'm exaggerating. Actually no need to even check, just think about it for a bit.

Anyway I think this ~50% increase is good, even if some people might think it's too much. There's only two issues: First, SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan after the Boo Saga, but I think everybody just silently agrees Gohan is being ignored/already got rusty. Second, Goku and Vegeta didn't just train on their own, they also did special training with Whis.

Personally I also like to keep the same scale between the anime and the manga, but the anime is it's own can of worms.

[QuakingStar]

We also need to remember that they are not sensing numbers when they are sensing power, they are just sensing and then comparing to see how strong. In Dragon Ball 180 and 260 was such a difference that King Piccolo one-shotted Goku and it was expressed that he stood no chance hence the Ultra Water stuff to help him. Nappa vs Piccolo was a 500 PL difference and again Piccolo stood no chance.

I think it would be better to just put them in tiers and say everyone in the same tier is close to each other.

kind of like Toriyama's 1-15 tier scale he used in BoG.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

We also need to remember that they are not sensing numbers when they are sensing power, they are just sensing and then comparing to see how strong. In Dragon Ball 180 and 260 was such a difference that King Piccolo one-shotted Goku and it was expressed that he stood no chance hence the Ultra Water stuff to help him. Nappa vs Piccolo was a 500 PL difference and again Piccolo stood no chance.

I think it would be better to just put them in tiers and say everyone in the same tier is close to each other.

kind of like Toriyama's 1-15 tier scale he used in BoG.

Yea that 260 is so unbeatable even if we got super powerful techniques like the Kikoho and the Kamehameha theres absolutely nothing they could've done (Same with the Nappa one) XD

Thats homestly not a bad idea I think I seen some around off site sometimes. Makes it easier to swallow i would say.

[Shintoki]

So, following a recent discussion on Neoseeker that seems to validate the idea that the text of the booklet series commonly known as El Manga Legendario comes originally from Shueisha and has contributions from some of the people who worked on the Daizenshuu, rather than just being a whimsical third party project with no worthwhile information, I decided to dip into it a bit more closely, to see if it had anything interesting to say that might put some of the material in a different light (of course, that doesn't give it Guidebook status, and Shueisha isn't above giving out some highly suspect statements anyway, but I thought it was interesting and worth a closer look, even with a critical eye).

Specifically, I had a look at the French version (Le Manga de Légende) which was the first version published of this line of booklets, by Hachette, the publisher who it seems originally commissioned the figurines and booklets. It turns out the French version is freely, entirely, and apparently quite legitimately accessible online, so I went through it all with a view to identifying all the power statements I could. The better-known Spanish Translation (El Manga Legendario) has also been put online, by fans, and I was able to have a look at the statements in the Spanish to compare. To summarise:

• There are a number of surprising power scaling claims in the French version - nothing wildly contradictory to what's in the manga, but some big-looking power jumps here and there, tossed out quite casually.
• In particular, the French version is very fond of using the term "décuple"/"décuplée" (from the verb "décupler") to describe some of the power jumps - this verb means specifically "to multiply tenfold" (it's the dictionary definition, but I also checked with a French chap I know; it has this meaning and apparently doesn't really have vague alternative idiomatic connotations like "to increase a lot"). Famously this claim is made of Trunks in SSj Grade III, but the French version uses it all over the place. In one place, the French version even uses the term for the extent to which Vegeta becomes more aggressive, under Babidi's charm (Issue 45, p.14). If I had to guess, I'd say the thoroughgoing reliance on this term is a choice by the translator more often than not, because...
• A lot of these claims are wholly lacking in the Spanish version. Though the Spanish translation was published later than the French, by Editorial Salvat, it seems like this version is not translated from the French, but rather is a fresh translation from whatever Japanese material was apparently formulated originally (Salvat is owned by Hachette, so one might have expected a direct translation from the French, as a more accessible language). However, most of the material seems generally similar enough to mostly indicate differing translations from the same source, rather than each version composing freely and embellishing as desired.
• The French version also likes to use the phrase "aussi fort" in comparing characters (basically meaning "as strong"); this is often rendered in the Spanish as "similar". I take it that the French covers this general sense of being comparable without being super-specific, so I'm saying it says "about as strong" in the listing below. That's just a caveat on a decision I'm making, so feel free to disagree.
• The French uses a lot of different expressions for rendering concepts of power. Even "Battle Power" is rendered two different ways, as "force combative" or "puissance combative"; often just "force" or "puissance" are used, or even "plus fort" (stronger) or "fort" (strong), and sometimes forms of "pouvoir" (power, sometimes used of "powers", but as a verb can mean generally the ability to do something); from a really quick check the Spanish seems to be somewhat more consistent in its rendering of the concepts, but also is keen on stuff like "fuerza" and "poder" to get the message across.
• If I had to guess, despite some unaccountable variations, generally the differences probably mostly come down to basic translation choice, and I'd guess the French version is overall freer than the Spanish. Which is unfortunate for me, as my Spanish is rubbish

For your convenience, here are the notes below from each issue where I found something of interest. Some are kind of obvious, and I haven't been 100% consistent in reproducing every strength statement in the series (I figure you don't need to have a citation for it telling us that Vegetto is surely the strongest in the story) - just ones where historically I've known there to be fan discussion or a sense of ambiguity, or where I found the statements in some way noteworthy. I'm citing from issue numbers and page numbers, and also comparing with the Spanish El Manga Legendario version in square brackets and italics. Hopefully it's of interest, and apologies for any errors I may have made (the French is quite a simple level, but my schoolboy French is very rusty - by all means feel free to check my work):

• Issue 3; p.3: Assimilating Nail multiplies Piccolo's power tenfold. [El Manga Legendario says 5 times ("quintuplicado"). Also the French version states it twice on the same page, once in main text and once in a caption - it looks like the caption lacks a specific power scaling statement in the Spanish.]
• Issue 8, p.15: The Super Holy Water multiplies power tenfold (by which I assume is meant, Karin's training does this). [El Manga Legendario lacks the multiplier; it just says it confers great power.]
• Issue 9, p.13: Second Form Cell's power is ten times that of his first form. [El Manga Legendario lacks this entirely, just saying that Cell achieves his Second Form by absorbing Android #17.]
• Issue 12, p.16: Yajirobe is about as strong as Goku. [El Manga Legendario says rather that he can fight on equal terms with Goku, which isn't quite the same thing.]
• Issue 22, p.15: A Saibaiman is about as strong as Raditz. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; uses the word "similar"]
• Issue 24, p.17: Son Gohan's power is multiplied by 10 when the Great Elder awakens his dormant power. [El Manga Legendario simply says that Gohan's awakened power surprises Vegeta - the French version also says this, it merely differs in having the tenfold multiplication present.]
• Issue 25, p.16: Inferior-ranked soldiers in Freeza's army are about the same level as Raditz or a Saibaiman (the goons Kuririn and Gohan kill are in the pictures around this statement). [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; they're a similar level.]
• Issue 27, p.14: Gurd's Battle Power is well below that of Kuririn and Gohan. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same.]
• Issue 28, p.17: The Battle Powers of Jheese and other members of the Ginyu Force are "probably somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000". [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 29, p.17: Both Piccolo and 2nd Form Freeza's Battle Powers are over a million, and Piccolo is stronger than Freeza. Also, a Battle Power of 10,000 is sufficient to destroy a planet. [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 30, p.14: Transforming into his 2nd Form doubles Freeza's power. [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 32, p.15: Trunks is about as strong as Goku. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; calls their strength "comparable".]
• Issue 32, p.17: King Cold is about as strong as Freeza. [El Manga Legendario seems to lack this tidbit entirely.]
• Issue 33, p.7: After 3 years of training, Vegeta and Piccolo are about as strong as Goku. [El Manga Legendario seems to lack this, as it looks like it just says they are Goku's rivals and after training have an impressive combat power.]
• Issue 34, p.15: Vegeta as a Super Saiyan is about as strong as Goku (though as per the manga, it later says that he might be stronger). [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; uses the word "similar".]
• Issue 35, p.15 and 17: Android #17 is stronger than Android #18 (said both ways around - the latter says #18 is weaker than #17, specifically). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 38, p.15: The Cell Juniors are about as strong as Vegeta. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; uses the word "similar" again.]
• Issue 38, p.16: Grade III multiplies Trunks's strength tenfold but inhibits his movement (it does not say compared to what - obviously either Grade II, since that's the prior form, or SSj generally, since the item is basically about surpassing Super Saiyan). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 39, p.13: The order of strength between the Androids is Cell, #16, #17, #18, #20, #19. [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 39, p.16: Gohan realises he's stronger than Cell, which is why he tries to convince him to stop fighting (this is a direct caption of SSj Gohan saying the fight is pointless, so it seems that this is saying SSj Gohan is already stronger than Cell). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 39, p.17: There's a comparison between Gohan's SSj2 and Vegeta's Grade II, saying that Vegeta's transformation is all in the muscles but Gohan's maximises his ki. (Really just popping this in because I've seen discussion inferring that the comparison means that the two forms might have the same basic multiplier, which is not what it says but it's not necessarily wrong to infer it). [El Manga Legendario basically says the same thing; it's vague, I'm just flagging generally rather than subjecting to close reading.]
• Issue 40, p.15: Goku and Vegeta are disappointed by Gohan's weakness when they see him fight Dabura, but Kaioshin is surprised by his strength (this is surrounded by a bunch of other statements that Gohan isn't as strong as he used to be). [El Manga Legendario says basically the same.]
• Issue 41, p.18: At 7 years old, Goten is already stronger than Freeza (probably quite unsurprising and doesn't tell you much, but just threw it in there, as there tend to be minimalists and maximalists for where the SSj kids stand in power terms). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 42, p.14: When controlled by Babidi, Spopovitch's power becomes 10 times what it usually is. [El Manga Legendario says only "several times higher".]
• Issue 42, p.15: Yamu seems to be Spopovitch's superior (isn't necessarily a power statement, but might be). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 43, p.15: Though Kaioshin is powerful, he's much weaker than a Super Saiyan. From how he reacts to Dabura, who is on the same level as Cell, one imagines that Kaioshin's strength is that of Goku and his friends at the time of the Cell Game. [El Manga Legendario says something similar, but with a couple of important differences: it says instead that he has unusual abilities but does not seem to surpass the combat strength of the Super Saiyans. It also compares him specifically to Cell Game Goku, and not also to his friends like the French version.]
• Issue 43, p.16: Kibito isn't on Kaioshin's level, but he's strong. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same.]
• Issue 44, p.16: Dabura is about as strong as Cell in his Perfect Form. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; again, using the word "similar".]
• Issue 45, p.13: Gotenks is stronger than Majin Buu (doesn't say which Gotenks, but this is next to a picture of Base Form Gotenks - the question isn't tied to a specific part of the manga story, however, as it's on the Answers Page of a quiz about fusions generally). [El Manga Legendario lacks this comment entirely.]
• Issue 47, p.7: Buu and Gotenks fight with unprecedented power ("puissance sans précédent" - this refers to the period where the pair fight in the Room of Spirit and Time, so passes as a comment on Super Buu and SSj Gotenks). [El Manga Legendario doesn't quite say this, instead it says the pair fight with an "incredible Combat power" ("una fuerza de combate incredible").]
• Issue 49, p.18: The Potaras don't just add together the strength of 2 people, but also augment their power. It also says that if Goku and Gohan had fused, the effect would not have been so augmented as his fusion with Vegeta (because of the rival boost). [El Manga Legendario seems to say something slightly different, saying that not only do the Potaras augment combat power, but also enhance other abilities. However, it seems to say basically the same with respect to the putative Goku-Gohan fusion.]
• Issue 49, p.19: Goku could've beaten Pure Buu if he'd had the help of Gotenks and Gohan. [El Manga Legendario seems to say basically the same - perhaps a slightly different implication, in saying Gotenks and Gohan would have been enough to beat Buu. It also says that Buu's Pure form is the most violent but not so strong ("pero no tan fuerte"), whereas the French seems only to say he's the most aggressive without making explicit comment about his strength.]
• Issue 50, p.19: By the end of the story, Goku is the strongest fighter in the Universe. (This isn't a declaration; it's mentioned in passing as part of the charm of Dragon Ball - that, although Goku has become the strongest fighter in the Universe, he still seeks to push his limits). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]

There you go: all I could find out of Le Manga De Légende, cross-checked against El Manga Legendario. If anyone knows something in the Spanish version that isn't in the French, that would be interesting to see (again, my rubbish Spanish isn't up to a deep-dive into El Manga Legendario), as would a comparison with the Italian (Il Manga Leggendario) or Greek (Το θρυλικό Manga) versions by anyone with access.

Anyway, even if it doesn't impact any opinions to have this stuff put up here, I hope it was interesting!

As a native bilingual French speaker, I believe that translating "décupler" as "tenfold" in every instance demonstrates either a lack of translation experience or non-native proficiency in French by whoever translated these to english. It seems likely that such translations were rushed through machine translation tools without careful consideration of the context and nuance. This is especially so with the repetitive usage of the phrase to indicate a large increase in strength for every character

The term "décupler" does literally mean "to multiply by ten" based on its etymology, but in modern French usage, it is frequently used figuratively to mean "to increase significantly." For example:

"La colère décuplait ses forces" translates to "Anger greatly increased his strength."
"Plaisir décuplé" means "Greatly intensified pleasure," not necessarily tenfold.
These examples highlight that "décupler" in such contexts conveys amplification or intensification rather than a precise mathematical increase. Misinterpreting this figurative use as strictly literal (e.g., "tenfold") leads to a misunderstanding of the intent behind the original expression.

A similar issue arises in English with the word "decimate." While its Latin origin (decimare) referred to reducing something by one-tenth, modern usage has evolved to mean "to destroy a large portion." Insisting on its original, literal meaning ignores its well-established figurative use, which better reflects contemporary understanding.

The equivalent of the approach being used would be to take the word "decimate" and prioritize its literal or etymological meaning, regardless of the context, for whatever reason, on the part of the person doing the translation.

This demonstrates why translations need to account for figurative, idiomatic, and connotative meanings. In the case of "décupler," applying the literal meaning outside a specific mathematical or numerical context is not only inaccurate but also diminishes the depth and nuance of the French language and hightlight the erroneousness in nature for any language being translated by no natives through machines

[Kaboom]

I always had a feeling that the "Trunks became ten times stronger than <something>" bit was some kind of colloquialism not meant to be taken literally.

[ZombieVito]

So Trunks SSG3 10 times increase was probably just a mistranslation?

Subarashii.

It's also nice to have a statement on Spopovich's power. Several times his normal power would easily put him on the double digits, probably around 25-30.

[Magnificent Ponta]

As a native bilingual French speaker, I believe that translating "décupler" as "tenfold" in every instance demonstrates either a lack of translation experience or non-native proficiency in French by whoever translated these to english. It seems likely that such translations were rushed through machine translation tools without careful consideration of the context and nuance.

Thanks for your reply! I'm very happy for the clarification by a better-informed individual, and grateful to have been corrected here.

As a note, however, the issue isn't with any machine translation, as I didn't use it when I read through the publication - I simply looked the verb up in the dictionary (and also asked a French chap I know if that was what it meant, which he affirmed, but I guess the verb without a multiplicity of contexts wouldn't have given him much to go on even though I asked him if it could have other meanings and he did not say so...). So the issue is with both a lack of translation experience and non-native proficiency, as I had only my rusty schoolboy French (as I noted in the post originally - it was never at a highly idiomatically conversant level, and I stopped learning about 20 years ago! ) and looking up unfamiliar words to aid me here, hence the woodenness of the application, despite my best efforts.

In short, my incompetence is entirely my own

Thanks again for the correction!

[Magnificent Ponta]

On another note...

I was watching a playthrough of the game Super Gokuden: Totsugeki Hen, which covers Dragon Ball from the beginning to the final showdown with Piccolo Daimao, and noted with interest Goku's power gauge, which progressively rises across the game's treatment of the story. I don't recall the numbers being discussed here before, and with a select few exceptions game values tend to be ignored (for good and obvious reasons - game treatment of power can be extremely wonky because the game's internal mechanics take priority rather than punctiliously reflecting the story, or otherwise it can be purely cosmetic nonsense), but I was surprised to note that if you were to take the "power" gauge numbers as BP values (and in fairness, the Japanese does use "sentouryoku" as terminology for that gauge), they're actually...not too bad?

Proportionately speaking, of course - that is to say, they're surprisingly coherent. Like, if you simply divided the numbers by 10 consistently and made a few tweaks here and there to reflect certain story details and the relatively small amount of official BP material there already is, you could come out with a surprisingly decent basic list for what is traditionally a pretty sticky area of the story, BP-wise (it's perhaps a smidge too keen to reward Goku with power gains for his efforts, but it seems easy enough to smooth over some of the more suspect ones). It was also interesting to see that the game was smart enough to reflect the idea of Goku having ranges of power at every point throughout the story (he starts each fight at a lower value but can focus his power up to a bounded maximum).

In case anyone's curious, I'm leaving the values that I noted from the playthrough I watched, here:

From Beginning to first fight with Yamcha: 50-100
Second fight with Yamcha: 70-140
At Mt. Frypan: 90-180
From fight with Boss Rabbit to Rescuing Lunch: 95-190
Kame-Sen'nin's Training: 100-200
21st Budokai to fight with Namu: 200-350
Fight with Jackie Chun: 205-360
After 21st Budokai: 315-530
Fighting Red Ribbon from Col. Silver up to Sgt. Metallic: 325-550
Fight with Murasaki: 335-570
Fight with Buyon: 345-590
Fight with Gen. White: 355-610
After Muscle Tower: 460-820
Fight with Blue Corps: 470-840
Fights at the Pirate Base and with Gen. Blue: 475-850
First fight with Tao Pai Pai: 480-860
After training with Karin, up to fight with Adj. Black: 780-1160
From fight with Battle Jacket, through Baba's fighters, to fight with Pilaf Bot: 790-1180
After Baba section of story: 820-1240
22nd Budokai Prelims: 1050-1550
22nd Budokai final rounds: 1100-1650
First fight with Tambourine (exhausted): 300
From fight with Yajirobe to first fight with Piccolo Daimao: 1400-2150
Post Super Divine Water to final fight with Piccolo Daimao: 2400-4150

As I say, potentially interesting material to "think with" and perhaps adapt...if you divide by 10

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Talking about game numbers, I think DBZ: The Anime Adventure Game gives some good power levels for the Garlic Jr Saga.

Gohan: 600,000
Krillin: 100,000
Piccolo: 2,000,000
Garlic Jr.: 1,500,000
Garlic Jr. (Powered Up by Makyo Star): 3,000,000
Spice: 1,000,000
Spice (Powered Up by Makyo Star): 2,000,000
Vinegar: 800,000
Vinegar (Powered Up by Makyo Star): 1,600,000
Salt: 400,000
Mustard: 450,000


On an unrelated note, I’m considering the idea that Piccolo and the fake androids aren’t actually stronger than Freeza. So I came up with these numbers:

Mecha Freeza: 135
SSJ Future Trunks (Debut): 160
SSJ Goku (Yardrat): 165

Android 19: 50 ~ 100 post absorptions
Android 20: 60 ~ 90 post absorptions
Piccolo: 120
SSJ Goku: 195 ~ 130 (Sick)
SSJ Future Trunks: 180
SSJ Vegeta: 200

Android 18: 270
Android 17: 300

SSJ Future Gohan: 150
Future Android 17: 250
Future Android 18: 225

What do you think?

[Koitsukai]

Lately, I've been feeling characters are supposed to be much closer in power that what we want them to be. I mean, we keep learning X can do stuff against Y that they weren't supposed to do, or that said character is still relevant or considered a benchmark even though he shouldn't be, according to us.
It's certainly less bloated than what we believe.

With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if 19 and 20 couldn't survive on Namek's last hour unless they absorb ki.

[Yuji]

Lately, I've been feeling characters are supposed to be much closer in power that what we want them to be. I mean, we keep learning X can do stuff against Y that they weren't supposed to do, or that said character is still relevant or considered a benchmark even though he shouldn't be, according to us.
It's certainly less bloated than what we believe.

With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if 19 and 20 couldn't survive on Namek's last hour unless they absorb ki.

I've always been a minimalist because the original series is minimalist. You can certainly gather some wild interpretations such as base Gotenks being stronger than SS3 Goku, or interpret some wild shit from the anime like SS Goku stronger than Ultimate Gohan, or Yamcha stronger than Cell.

But the original manga seems pretty clear in its intent, if anything. Freeza is a constant measuring stick. Even in the more bloated modern era, Namek era power levels are still measuring sticks. SS2 Gohan and Cell are other common sticks as well. I think even if the way the series presents power gaps says something else, the intent is for the jumps to be less substantial.

Certainly, SS was never portrayed as a x50 multiplier ever again. Even Toriyama admitted he wrote it as 10x post Namek. And that starts to make sense when you realize how strong base Saiyans are portrayed often.

[QuakingStar]

The way I saw it, SS was more like 40x base power in the Namek Arc, Frieza at 100% fought evenly with him and even got the advantage at different points, so 3,000,000 x 40 = 120,000,000. I think it's more likely that Super Saiyan Fourth Grade aka Super Saiyan Full Power is 50x base power. But like you said it is also possible that after the Namek Arc Toriyama decided that SS was only 10x base power but the thing is nothing in the manga or anime seems indicate that was ever implemented. I also think that what they are sensing as massive differences is probably only the equivalent differences from DB but on a larger scale. In DB 260 and 180 were a gargantuan difference, to the point Goku was not a threat a tall to King Piccolo. If you equate that difference as the powerlevels soar ever higher it would probably make more sense.

[LightBing]

With that Toriyama interview and another look at the Freeza, Goku fight, my conclusion is that SSJ is x30.

I'm actually frustrated how, for so long, I didn't realize the sequencing that gets us there.
Freeza claims to be at 50%, Goku x10 isn't enough. In a last ditch effort, praying that Freeza is bluffing, Goku uses x20. So Kaioken x20 is above 50% Freeza, this is where I was wrong.
For some reason I thought Kaioken x20 was below 50% Freeza, which wouldn't make sense in the narrative.

Lately, I've been feeling characters are supposed to be much closer in power that what we want them to be. I mean, we keep learning X can do stuff against Y that they weren't supposed to do, or that said character is still relevant or considered a benchmark even though he shouldn't be, according to us.
It's certainly less bloated than what we believe.

With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if 19 and 20 couldn't survive on Namek's last hour unless they absorb ki.

Always felt people in general bloat gaps.

I blame guides, that are for the most part completely wrong, influencing people. To give a blatant example: Nappa's 4000 versus Goku's 8000. Toriyama consistently used half/50% statements to highlight immense differences, to make characters desperate.
So when people have to jump hoops to fit guide numbers, everything gets distorted.

My analysis for the power scaling in Dragon Ball:
Within a 10% gap fights will be even; from 10% to 20% with skill, toughness, ki-sensing advantages, etc... there's a chance of victory. Everything above is far too large, unless Genki Dama's and the like enter the mix.
50% gap is Toriyama golden rule for everyone to shit their pants.

I also think the Androids couldn't hold a candle to Freeza.

[QuakingStar]

Nappa calmed down and used some sort of lighting aura power-up tech which doubled his power level.
Vegeta when he sees Kaioken mentions seeing techs like it before.

That's why Nappa was able to go toe to toe with Goku evenly once he calmed down and used that tech. Goku's Kaioken usage is what gave him the W against Nappa.

[DanielSSJ]

Nappa calmed down and used some sort of lighting aura power-up tech which doubled his power level.
...

That's why Nappa was able to go toe to toe with Goku evenly once he calmed down and used that tech. Goku's Kaioken usage is what gave him the W against Nappa.

Except it's kind of a major plot point in the arc that the Saiyans, unlike the Earthlings, cannot change their battle powers at will. Vegeta of all people, only learns to do it after getting his shit rocked on Earth. Nappa likely has an innate power level close to Goku's 8000. He was just under-performing because he was letting his anger get the better of him (you might say he was lacking in shouki/right-mindedness) and that he's kinda a dumb brute in general.

Vegeta when he sees Kaioken mentions seeing techs like it before.

I'm gonna need a source on this, because I don't remember Vegeta saying this at all. In fact, Vegeta's immediate response to seeing Goku use the Kaioken for the first time is "Impossible! Nobody can just multiply their power like that!" (Chapter 227/Z Chapter 33). If such a line does exist, it's probably only in the dub.