Non-thread-worthy discussions

[Majin Buu]

One just also has to simply watch the Z movies to realize they can't work in a singular timeline.

The movies were never meant to be anything more than "just enjoy this standalone 40 minute to hour long feature and don't think too hard about how it's going to get contradicted later on"

This. You don't need Koyama to confirm that- It's readily apparent just from watching the damn movies.

[Koitsukai]

Even though some are sequels to other movies, and they openly act as follow-ups, they still contradict their prequel.
For instance, the 1st Broly movie cannot co-exist with the Cell Games due to the world ambient being completely different(we have to headcanon ourselves into assuming Cell was somehow defeated before becoming perfect or something that prevents the world from being in danger and the gang not giving a fuck about the Cell Games), however, the 2nd Coming has Goku dead... even though he never died in the 1st movie.

So the 2nd Coming now pretends the 1st Broly movie happened in a timeline where the Cell Games were a thing and Goku died... while in the 1st movie that just doesn't make any sense. Like Majin Buu said, you don't need somebody saying something about it, watching the movies is enough.

[Grimlock]

Tree of Might & Lord Slug for example has the Z-Fighters alive during a time where Goku knows both the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb but has not unlocked Super Saiyan nor has he defeated Frieza. Yet in Cooler’s Revenge Goku explicitly experienced the main events of Namek hence how he defeated Frieza as a Super Saiyan and experienced the events on Planet Namek. These two things are mutually exclusive from one another. You can't have a timeline where Goku is on Earth, with the alive Z-Fighters, while knowing the Kaio Ken & the Spirit Bomb but not knowing Super Saiyan. Nor can you have a timeline where those events happen but Goku for some reason still goes through the trek to Namek and fights Frieza and transforms into a Super Saiyan. They do not make sense on a contiguous timeline. They have to be separate.

Admittedly, Movie 3 (and Movie 2) is problematic due to the characters being alive and there having absolutely no way to solve that issue, but it hardly means the other movies cannot occur in the same timeline. Movie 4, as you mentioned, doesn't contradict Movie 5. Speaking of which, I'll take the opportunity to ask you to tell me exactly how each of the movies contradict each other. As the last time I was in this discussion, I asked them to elaborate it, but curiously I didn't get anything. It'd be nice to know if it's true or if it's just another thing people love to claim based on nothing (if it's true, it would be fun to figure out if there's a way to solve any potential issue).

AtlasFlame18, after I said this, it got me thinking:

The characters being dead or alive are irrelevant. The only one that should die in Saiyans saga is Piccolo, so that he can get revived in Freeza saga and the events play out similarly. As Yamcha and Tenshinhan don't have important roles, it doesn't matter whether they are alive or not, as long as they aren't/don't get involved in the Freeza saga events (i.e. they stay on Earth, for example), it's fine.

Maybe not even Piccolo has to die. Maybe in this dimension he went together with Goku to Namekusei, and the events play out in a way that he doesn't affect much the outcomes. I will have to read Freeza saga to remember if Piccolo being there before time would disrupt the entire thing. But if that's the case, then this allows for Movie 2 and Movie 3 to happen as if they are sequel to each other, if I'm not forgetting any other detail. Oh, and both of these movies happen before Freeza saga, as Super Saiyan is not mentioned or anything. They would happen in a gap after Goku is recovered and before he departures to Namekusei.

As you said, the anime events happened differently in the movies dimension, so let's both of us keep that in mind and not make the rookie mistake of trying to fit the movies within the events of the series as we know it. Like so many people do to this day.

[AtlasFlame18]

Tree of Might & Lord Slug for example has the Z-Fighters alive during a time where Goku knows both the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb but has not unlocked Super Saiyan nor has he defeated Frieza. Yet in Cooler’s Revenge Goku explicitly experienced the main events of Namek hence how he defeated Frieza as a Super Saiyan and experienced the events on Planet Namek. These two things are mutually exclusive from one another. You can't have a timeline where Goku is on Earth, with the alive Z-Fighters, while knowing the Kaio Ken & the Spirit Bomb but not knowing Super Saiyan. Nor can you have a timeline where those events happen but Goku for some reason still goes through the trek to Namek and fights Frieza and transforms into a Super Saiyan. They do not make sense on a contiguous timeline. They have to be separate.

Admittedly, Movie 3 (and Movie 2) is problematic due to the characters being alive and there having absolutely no way to solve that issue, but it hardly means the other movies cannot occur in the same timeline. Movie 4, as you mentioned, doesn't contradict Movie 5. Speaking of which, I'll take the opportunity to ask you to tell me exactly how each of the movies contradict each other. As the last time I was in this discussion, I asked them to elaborate it, but curiously I didn't get anything. It'd be nice to know if it's true or if it's just another thing people love to claim based on nothing (if it's true, it would be fun to figure out if there's a way to solve any potential issue).

AtlasFlame18, after I said this, it got me thinking:

The characters being dead or alive are irrelevant. The only one that should die in Saiyans saga is Piccolo, so that he can get revived in Freeza saga and the events play out similarly. As Yamcha and Tenshinhan don't have important roles, it doesn't matter whether they are alive or not, as long as they aren't/don't get involved in the Freeza saga events (i.e. they stay on Earth, for example), it's fine.

Maybe not even Piccolo has to die. Maybe in this dimension he went together with Goku to Namekusei, and the events play out in a way that he doesn't affect much the outcomes. I will have to read Freeza saga to remember if Piccolo being there before time would disrupt the entire thing. But if that's the case, then this allows for Movie 2 and Movie 3 to happen as if they are sequel to each other, if I'm not forgetting any other detail. Oh, and both of these movies happen before Freeza saga, as Super Saiyan is not mentioned or anything. They would happen in a gap after Goku is recovered and before he departures to Namekusei.

As you said, the anime events happened differently in the movies dimension, so let's both of us keep that in mind and not make the rookie mistake of trying to fit the movies within the events of the series as we know it. Like so many people do to this day.

I am not sure what else to tell you. You are openly ignoring numerous contradictions between movies and statements from the writer of them. The movies simply do not fit on a single timeline. As others have stated just watching the movies on there own shows inherent contradictions of the setting between them. You can headcanon them to be in one timeline if you want but it is not in any way a reading of the series that is in line with what was actually shown.

[Grimlock]

Ah, that's very unfortunate. I was hoping to have a very interesting and in-depth conversation about this since KBABZ years ago, but I guess that's impossible. The fact that I'm openly asking you to point the contradictions out means I'm not ignoring anything, but I guess it's obvious you would rely on that "excuse". As for Koyama statement, I'm electing to ignore his opinion for the sake of another official material, not for the sake of it. It's convenient of you to address what he said, but you never address when people say the movies are what-if events, ignoring what Toriyama said about them, which pretty much confirms the movies are legitimate events by saying they take place in another dimension. And it's also very curious that you go with Koyama's statement without answering how the characters acknowledge the movie villains in the Hatchiyack OVA if they all happened in different realities.

I will not just take your word that the "movies contradict each other" and call it a day, either we sit down and analyze those supposed contradictions and propose a solution (because, ultimately, this is Multiverse we are dealing with, so it's not as much a "headcanon" as it can be a fact. We're talking about a dimension where Freeza has a brother, so this conept inherently allows for some other grounded modifications in the narrative), or this will be yet another thing Dragon Ball fans love to claim but goes without proof. And I know full well that they do this kind of stuff, see the other notorious example "this is canon", "that is not canon"... despite the fact that neither Toriyama nor Shueisha have never established this nonsense, among many other baseless claims.

[jjgp1112]

Movie 2 has a flashback of Piccolos death against Nappa. Moreover, there is literally no reason for them to be on Namek if Piccolo doesn't die. For Piccolo to be alive again in a timeline where Goku is only at his Vegeta fight level of power just destroys all credibility. In your little timeline we're supposed to presume that Frieza and his organization couldn't handle an 18,000 PL Goku, yet Movie 4 puts Frieza at least comparable with Slug, and Movie 5 puts Frieza comparable with 4th form Cooler. Movie 4 says Slug, who was defeated by a Goku that can't even go Super Saiyan, is stronger than Frieza. But then Movie 5, Cooler says Frieza was defeated by a Super Saiyan. Yeah, okay

(Movie 5 also has a line that implies Vegeta is still dead)

They don't fit with each other. They're just what-ifs crafted towards whatever the state of things were at the time of production.

And let's not even get started on Movie 11, which has a subplot directly based on canon events...canon events that would completely contradict Movie 12.

[jjgp1112]

Oh yeah, and Movie 9 also directly references canon events that contradict Movies 6-8. And the presence of Future Trunks in any of those movies alone just throws everything off. Android 18 being married to Krillin Movie 11 doesn't jive with Movie 7's events, where she and 17 are seemingly gone. Movie 11's plot directly follows up the canon World Tournament, but Gohan's not around and the boys can't fuse. But then in Movie 12, Gohan's back, the boys can fuse, and Goku references his fight with Buu. They don't fit even with each other, period.

[MasenkoHA]

They don't fit with each other. They're just what-ifs crafted towards whatever the state of things were at the time of production.

And they occasionally try to account for "future events" when they can.

Yamucha is sporting the Kaio kanji on his gi in Tree of Might because he was currently in training with Kaio in the main series and it was assumed once he was brought to life he would have the Kaio kanji on the back of his Turtle School gi like Goku did. Goku has his Namek gi instead of his Kaio gi despite still wearing the latter in the tv series because the manga had already made the switch. Movie 3 and 4 (and to a lesser extent movie 2) make it abudantly clear they take place AFTER Namek.

Likewise movie 6 had Dende as Kami-sama even though that hadn't happened in the manga yet and Piccolo and Kami hadn't even merged in the anime yet presumably because Toei was trying to set the film after the Android saga and were told by Toriyama ahead of time that Dende was going to be earth's new Kami (or they made a really good guess).

With the exception of the first Z movie they're all meant to take place "After current conflict in main series"

(we have to headcanon ourselves into assuming Cell was somehow defeated before becoming perfect or something that prevents the world from being in danger and the gang not giving a fuck about the Cell Games), however, the 2nd Coming has Goku dead... even though he never died in the 1st movie.

Eh movie 8 is meant to take place around late March (characters are observing hanami and Chi Chi says Gohan's spring break is over at the end of the movie) it was probably meant to take place roughly 10 months after Cell was defeated.

[jjgp1112]

You'd have to make a bunch of asspull fanfic headcanons to connect any of the Z Movies, whereas the DB movies all directly followed each other up and picked up where the last one left off

[Koitsukai]

Eh movie 8 is meant to take place around late March (characters are observing hanami and Chi Chi says Gohan's spring break is over at the end of the movie) it was probably meant to take place roughly 10 months after Cell was defeated.

Thanks, I didn't know that, but even so, how come Goku is not dead? we still have to assume Cell was defeated in a different way. But then, in the sequel, he is dead. M8 follows up a non-official Cell arc, and the Broly sequel follows up on the official Cell arc.

[MasenkoHA]

Eh movie 8 is meant to take place around late March (characters are observing hanami and Chi Chi says Gohan's spring break is over at the end of the movie) it was probably meant to take place roughly 10 months after Cell was defeated.

Thanks, I didn't know that, but even so, how come Goku is not dead? we still have to assume Cell was defeated in a different way. But then, in the sequel, he is dead. M8 follows up a non-official Cell arc, and the Broly sequel follows up on the official Cell arc.

Right. Goku isn't dead because Toriyama hadn't wrote that in yet. Toei works with what they were given. It's meant to take place after Cell's defeat and Goku is alive because Koyama didn't bring his crystal ball to the writer's room.

You're 100 on the money that Movie 10 and 11 are direct sequels to Movie 8 but Movie 10 and 11 actually follow up on the Cell saga's actual outcome but movie 8 doesn't because it well..can't.

[jjgp1112]

Eh movie 8 is meant to take place around late March (characters are observing hanami and Chi Chi says Gohan's spring break is over at the end of the movie) it was probably meant to take place roughly 10 months after Cell was defeated.

Thanks, I didn't know that, but even so, how come Goku is not dead? we still have to assume Cell was defeated in a different way. But then, in the sequel, he is dead. M8 follows up a non-official Cell arc, and the Broly sequel follows up on the official Cell arc.

Right. Goku isn't dead because Toriyama hadn't wrote that in yet. Toei works with what they were given. It's meant to take place after Cell's defeat and Goku is alive because Koyama didn't bring his crystal ball to the writer's room.

You're 100 on the money that Movie 10 and 11 are direct sequels to Movie 8 but Movie 10 and 11 actually follow up on the Cell saga's actual outcome but movie 8 doesn't because it well..can't.

Right...Movie 10 essentially retcons Movie 8 as seemingly taking place right before the Cell Games and yeah...that still can't fit. You think Vegeta's hanging out a picnic with the Cell Games in 9 days? And schools actually having enrollment instead of shutting down for the Apocalypse?

[FinalForumPodcast]

You'd have to make a bunch of asspull fanfic headcanons to connect any of the Z Movies, whereas the DB movies all directly followed each other up and picked up where the last one left off

The DB movies are kinda wild:
-Here's a (VERY LOOSE) re-telling of Goku's first adventure
-Here's a (VERY LOOSE) re-telling of Goku's training with Roshi and Krillin
-OH NO THE SERIES IS ENDING AND WE STILL HAVE TO DO A TOURNAMENT MUSCLE TOWER TAO PAI PAI MASTER KORIN ANOTHER TOURNAMENT AND A STORY ABOUT AN EVIL PERSON TRYING TO BE KING OF THE WORLD CRAM IT ALL INTO ONE MOVIE WHERE GOKU ENTERS A TOURNAMENT FIGHTS METALLITRON IN A BAR GETS PUNTED UP TO THE TOP OF KORIN TOWER MASTER CRANE TRIES TO RULE THE WORLD AND ARALE DEFEATS TAO PAIPAI!!!!

[Majin Buu]

And I know full well that they do this kind of stuff, see the other notorious example "this is canon", "that is not canon"... despite the fact that neither Toriyama nor Shueisha have never established this nonsense, among many other baseless claims.

Except this is a rare instance where the people in a position to offer clarification on this have actually addressed it.

Toriyama has spoken on this, as has been established, but I'd argue Koyama's word matters more than Toriyama's on this considering Koyama wrote the Z movies and was the central figure in their creation.

This isn't a "GT isn't canon" type of situation, where fans say that despite no one in a position to make that call having actually said anything to that effect. Here, we have statements from the guy behind the Z movies directly addressing their continuity status and saying they don't all exist in the same continuity. Yeah, he stamps it as his "personal opinion", but I think using those two words to dismiss everything else he said as not mattering here comes off like you're grasping at straws for an excuse to dismiss inconvenient information that doesn't support your position. It's like- The creator can make a direct statement on these things, but whether or not you'll accept that depends on whether or not those statements support your position more than anything else. Would you have accepted Koyama's words if he hadn't included "personal opinion" in his post? I don't think so. In fact, I know you wouldn't have, considering that was only one of three points you made trying to refute what he said.

It's disingenuous for you to mention that no one in charge has established anything on stuff like this only to then look for reasons to dismiss those statements in the rare instance that such a statement was actually made and presented to you. That's what we call "moving the goalpost".

Though like I said earlier: It's readily apparent that they can't all fit in the same continuity- Unless you just ignore what's actually in the films and work backwards from the conclusion you want using mental gymnastics and headcanon like you're doing.

[Grimlock]

Movie 2 has a flashback of Piccolos death against Nappa. Moreover, there is literally no reason for them to be on Namek if Piccolo doesn't die. For Piccolo to be alive again in a timeline where Goku is only at his Vegeta fight level of power just destroys all credibility.

Right. And with the guidebook placing the movie after the battle with Vegeta and before Goku going to Namekusei, it means Piccolo got revived earlier somehow. I already conceded that Movie 2 to be out of continuity (not due to it cotnradicting the other movies, I still don't see anything that points to that. It's out of continuity because it contradicts even the alternate series, with no apparent solution), so moving on. I would say on to Movie 3, but I prefer to start from the beginning, what makes Movie 1 to be out of continuity with the other movies?

They don't fit with each other.

That's what we shall see.

And let's not even get started on Movie 11, which has a subplot directly based on canon events...canon events that would completely contradict Movie 12.

Nah, let's do get started, but hold your horses. I would like to go through each movie before getting to Movie 11.

Except this is a rare instance where the people in a position to offer clarification on this have actually addressed it.

Toriyama has spoken on this, as has been established, but I'd argue Koyama's word matters more than Toriyama's on this considering Koyama wrote the Z movies and was the central figure in their creation.

Then... where is it? Where are Toriyama and Koyama statements on this?

This isn't a "GT isn't canon" type of situation, where fans say that despite no one in a position to make that call having actually said anything to that effect. Here, we have statements from the guy behind the Z movies directly addressing their continuity status and saying they don't all exist in the same continuity.

You do know what "canon" means, right? And that it has zero relation to "continuity", right? Takao Koyama saying he prefers for the movies to take place in different realities has no bearing in canonicity. Even if a work takes place outside of a continuity, it can still be a canonical work.

It's like- The creator can make a direct statement on these things, but whether or not you'll accept that depends on whether or not those statements support your position more than anything else. Would you have accepted Koyama's words if he hadn't included "personal opinion" in his post? I don't think so. In fact, I know you wouldn't have, considering that was only one of three points you made trying to refute what he said.

And you? Would you have accepted Toriyama's words if the interviewer hadn't included "in your personal stance" in his question? I don't think so. In fact, like me and everyone else, you accept and/or ignore things based on your position more than anything else.

It's disingenuous for you to mention that no one in charge has established anything on stuff like this only to then look for reasons to dismiss those statements in the rare instance that such a statement was actually made and presented to you. That's what we call "moving the goalpost".

Again, do you know the difference between "canonicity" and "continuity"? Because what I dismissed has nothing to do with the former and what Koyama said also has nothing to do with canonicity. And again I say, there is no canon in Dragon Ball, that has never been established.

IThough like I said earlier: It's readily apparent that they can't all fit in the same continuity- Unless you just ignore what's actually in the films and work backwards from the conclusion you want using mental gymnastics and headcanon like you're doing.

It's very funny that you say I'm "disingenuous" and proceeds to say I'm "ignoring what's actually in the films" even though all I have been doing is asking for us to discuss them. Guess I'm not the only disingenuous around here. I would ask you (and anyone else that fits what I'm about to say) that if you are not willing to engage in a conversation, do not butt in, especially in a pathetic way such as this.

[jjgp1112]

Right. And with the guidebook placing the movie after the battle with Vegeta and before Goku going to Namekusei, it means Piccolo got revived earlier somehow. I already conceded that Movie 2 to be out of continuity (not due to it cotnradicting the other movies, I still don't see anything that points to that. It's out of continuity because it contradicts even the alternate series, with no apparent solution), so moving on. I would say on to Movie 3, but I prefer to start from the beginning, what makes Movie 1 to be out of continuity with the other movies?

That "somehow"...is them going to Namek. There is no getting around this. In order for Piccolo to be there after having died, then they would've had to go to Namek, successfully use the Dragon Balls, and bring Piccolo back to life. This would mean that Goku was somehow able to dispatch Frieza at his Saiyan saga level of power, having never reached past a quadruple Kaioken let alone Super Saiyan...and yet Movie 4 treats Frieza as the measuring stick for Lord Slug, who is able to fight a far stronger Goku. And then Movie 5 kicks off right after the canon Frieza saga. So bam, right there Movie 2 contradicts Movie 3, which is contradicted by Movie 4, which is contradicted by Movie 5. Like, what are we doing?????

That's what we shall see.

We've already seen, bubba, and the answer is and your only argument has been that 1+2 somehow equals 5 or something.

Nah, let's do get started, but hold your horses. I would like to go through each movie before getting to Movie 11.

Movie 11 directly follows up a canon storyline which by default runs a bulldozer through every movie but the 9th, and with a presumed ending that fits neither Movie 12 nor 13.

Do you undertstand the pattern here? Each movie is written to accommodate the preceding canon story, many of them directly referencing the canon series that happened completely independent of the movies. Even the 3 movies that function as sequels contradict key parts of the their predecessor's storylines. There is no unifying timeline, unless we're supposed to believe that "Somehow, Frieza returned" about three times or something? Or that "Somehow, Cell returned" between Movie 8 and Movie 9? Or that "somehow, Buu returned?" after Movies 10, 11, and 12?

If you can't connect any of these storylines without making up your own entirely original plotline, then congratulations, they don't fit with each other. I write fanfics too, welcome to the club!

It's very funny that you say I'm "disingenuous" and proceeds to say I'm "ignoring what's actually in the films" even though all I have been doing is asking for us to discuss them. Guess I'm not the only disingenuous around here. I would ask you (and anyone else that fits what I'm about to say) that if you are not willing to engage in a conversation, don't even butt in, especially in a pathetic way such as yours.

What, exactly, is there to discuss here? Nobody's saying you aren't free to have your own theories...but we're free to point out all the reasons they're hogwash. If you want to have your own little Grimlock-verse, have at it, but you're doing a fool's errand trying to convince us that it has some basis in reality...especially when the guy writing the movies said they're best treated independent of each other. Your reason for ignoring this statement is deciding that Toriyama and Daizenshuu's statements about the movies being in a different dimension from the series automatically means they're saying they take place in the same dimension and um...that's a brand new sentence, dawg. That's like me saying that because a chicken wing and a salad are different from yogurt, that means a chicken wing and salad are in the same food group!

You keep grasping at straws with stuff like the movie villains appearing Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, but that doesn't unify the Movies so much as it creates another contradictory continuity where they did all happen in ways that would have to have been vastly different from the movies we actually saw. It's almost like Mira and Towa are just time travelling willy nilly and creating 13 alternate timelines or something. Again, you can go ahead and make your Eradicate-verse but that doesn't change the reality of the actual movies we're discussing. Ditto for Dragon Ball Heroes, which is enough of a clusterfuck as it is.

You're doing this enlightened victim shtick like we're denying you a conversation, but it seems like you just want us to placate your theories rather than actually scrutinize them, and people are losing patience arguing in circles with you. Like I don't mean to be harsh, but this whole "It's a shame I can't have the open, in-depth conversation about this like I did with KBABZ" routine you've done every time you've tried to fire this subject back up comes off as smarmy and passive-aggressive at best, and disingenuous and performative at worst.

[Grimlock]

That "somehow"...is them going to Namek. There is no getting around this. In order for Piccolo to be there after having died, then they would've had to go to Namek, successfully use the Dragon Balls, and bring Piccolo back to life. This would mean that Goku was somehow able to dispatch Frieza at his Saiyan saga level of power, having never reached past a quadruple Kaioken let alone Super Saiyan...and yet Movie 4 treats Frieza as the measuring stick for Lord Slug, who is able to fight a far stronger Goku. And then Movie 5 kicks off right after the canon Frieza saga. So bam, right there Movie 2 contradicts Movie 3, which is contradicted by Movie 4, which is contradicted by Movie 5. Like, what are we doing?????

You are here saying the movies aren't connected but goes with an idea like the movies are connected? If Movie 2 is out of continuity, then none of what you are saying here makes sense. No, Goku didn't "go to Namekusei with his Saiyans saga power level, having never reached past a quadruple Kaioken let alone Super Saiyan" because "they went to Namekusei, successfully used the Dragon Balls, and brought Piccolo back to life".

Please pay attention, third time I'm saying it, I conceded that Movie 2 is out of continuity, so none of what you said happened. Now may you please say how Movie 1 is out of continuity in relation to the other movies or what?

If you can't connect any of these storylines without making up your own entirely original plotline, then congratulations, they don't fit with each other. I write fanfics too, welcome to the club!

We don't know how the events of the anime happened in the dimension of the movies, so this is a subject that inherently demands us to come up with assumptions and logical ideas to figure out what could and/or couldn't have happened.

One would think that people would be accustomed to the "Multiverse" topic by now to know that things happen differently in other Universes. So in a Universe where Garlic Junior exists, Bulma and the others know about Gohan prior to Goku appearing at Kame House would be easily acceptable, we have here people still struggling to accept that things did happen differently, chalking it up to "headcanon", "fanfic". Again, if you don't understand this approach or are not willing to do this kind of differentiations, don't even bother yourself butting in in the conversation just to say "the movies don't fit, peace out". You are not contributing to the conversation at all.

You're doing this enlightened victim shtick like we're denying you a conversation, but it seems like you just want us to placate your theories rather than actually scrutinize them, and people are losing patience arguing in circles with you. Like I don't mean to be harsh, but this whole "It's a shame I can't have the open, in-depth conversation about this like I did with KBABZ" routine you've done every time you've tried to fire this subject back up comes off as smarmy and passive-aggressive at best, and disingenuous and performative at worst.

That's your own fault then. Because yes, if it's not clear then maybe using actual words will be clearer: I do want to have a conversation about how to "correct" the movies and try to piece them together. If you don't want to "placate" ideas, if you don't have the patience, if all you have to say is "they don't fit", if you don't like this subject, if you are not willing to sit down and have thoroughly and in-depth conversation about this theme, don't join the damn fray, because that is exactly what I want.

Is this clear enough for you now?

It is good you are losing patience and getting mad over this bullshit, let this be a lesson. Don't submit a response if you have nothing to say.

[jjgp1112]

That "somehow"...is them going to Namek. There is no getting around this. In order for Piccolo to be there after having died, then they would've had to go to Namek, successfully use the Dragon Balls, and bring Piccolo back to life. This would mean that Goku was somehow able to dispatch Frieza at his Saiyan saga level of power, having never reached past a quadruple Kaioken let alone Super Saiyan...and yet Movie 4 treats Frieza as the measuring stick for Lord Slug, who is able to fight a far stronger Goku. And then Movie 5 kicks off right after the canon Frieza saga. So bam, right there Movie 2 contradicts Movie 3, which is contradicted by Movie 4, which is contradicted by Movie 5. Like, what are we doing?????

You are here saying the movies aren't connected but goes with an idea like the movies are connected? If Movie 2 is out of continuity, then none of what you are saying here makes sense. No, Goku didn't "go to Namekusei with his Saiyans saga power level, having never reached past a quadruple Kaioken let alone Super Saiyan" because "they went to Namekusei, successfully used the Dragon Balls, and brought Piccolo back to life".

Please pay attention, third time I'm saying it, I conceded that Movie 2 is out of continuity, so none of what you said happened. Now may you please say how Movie 1 is out of continuity in relation to the other movies or what?

Huh? I'm not "going with an idea that the movies are connected." I'm very clearly taking your presumption of the movies being connected and picking apart the reasons they aren't, starting with Movie 2. Movies 3, 4 and 5 have the exact same issues in relation to each other as Movie 2 does to them, in that they all presume vastly different conclusions of the Frieza fight as evidenced by Frieza being directly referenced in all of them, and the obvious differences in techniques, strength and even character development. Because each movie tethers themselves to whatever was going on in the ever evolving canon continuity, they have details that inherently contradict each other. Ergo none of them are connected! Easy to grasp, no?

And what does Dead Zone have to do with any of this. The other movies can't fit together, so why would Dead Zone? Since again, the other movies inherently plow a bulldozer through thwir predecessors due to their adherance to the ongoing canon events, then in order for Dead Zone to fit anywhere you have to assume Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, Bulma, Roshi, Kami and Popo all got hit with the Men In Black flash immediately afterwards.

But then its all moot because there's nowhere for it to fit because there's nothing that connects any of these movies other than that them being Dragon Ball Z. They're not one singular branch from a tree, but 13 separate branches.

You're skipping clean past crucial bits of people's rhetoric and just talking at us.

[Majin Buu]

Then... where is it? Where are Toriyama and Koyama statements on this?

You're so playing dumb here. If what AtlasFlame18 provided from Koyama isn't a statement, then nothing is.

But really, this is a microcosm of what motivated me to jump into this to begin with: I don't like your behavior here, it comes off like you're not engaging in these conversations- conversations you claim you want to have- in good faith. You had the gall to say no one in charge has established anything about stuff like this in the same discussion that had someone give you a direct statement from the man who wrote the Z movies, and you were like "nope, because two certain words were included what the man said doesn't count."

It comes off like the man himself would have to word that statement in some pedantic lawyer-speak way that dots all the Is and crosses all the Ts for you to accept it. But honestly, I think you'd still find some excuse to dismiss even that version of his statement, because I believe what's really happening here is what JJGP spoke to- You don't actually want to have a conversation about this, because you've been engaging in a conversation on this the entire time- while playing the victim about how no one wants to have a conversation on this. No, what you actually want is for people to validate your perspective. You only want a conversation if it results in people agreeing with you, or at minimum not disagreeing with you. Anyone that disagrees with you can just fuck off. That attitude has been apparent in all of your posts on this (and in general).

You do know what "canon" means, right? And that it has zero relation to "continuity", right? Takao Koyama saying he prefers for the movies to take place in different realities has no bearing in canonicity. Even if a work takes place outside of a continuity, it can still be a canonical work.

I brought up "GT isn't canon" as an example of the type of thing fans say authoritatively despite there being no statement from Toei, Toriyama, etc. saying GT isn't canon. I did that to establish that the topic of discussion here is not the same situation as something like that, because you yourself claimed the people in charge haven't established anything about stuff like this- Which again, isn't actually true in this particular case.

But I think you know what I meant here and are just straw manning.

And you? Would you have accepted Toriyama's words if the interviewer hadn't included "in your personal stance" in his question? I don't think so. In fact, like me and everyone else, you accept and/or ignore things based on your position more than anything else.

I'm not the one sanctimoniously whining about how no one wants to have a conversion in the middle of a conversation where people are disagreeing with me.

[QuakingStar]

The movies are basically alternate events, none of them are canon in any way except for BoG, RoF, and DBS Broly. You can just imagine why some things are different yourself because there is no actual explanation for the differences in these alternate dimension events, such as why was Piccolo alive etc.